Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:23:13 -0500 To: telecine@alegria.com From: smcw@onramp.net Subject: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Is there still a need to 'Steady-Gate-transfer' film which is intended for effects and compositing, or have the later Ursa Golds and Spirit done away with the need for steady gate? (I am aware footage may be 'steadied' in post.... but I am curious about the precision of these later machines.) Steve McWilliams Director/Camera Bednarz Film From: rob@alegria.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:55:42 -0500 To: smcw@onramp.net Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate On Oct 21, 23:23, smcw@onramp.net wrote: } Subject: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate > Is there still a need to 'Steady-Gate-transfer' film which is intended for > effects and compositing, or have the later Ursa Golds and Spirit done away > with the need for steady gate? that's a good question Steve, and I'll summarize here what I know, and ask for more from those who can fill in the gaps in my knowledge. On Cintel machines, I've used four systems: Steadi-Gate (pin registered non-realtime transfer), RTS (Real Time Steadigate), Pin-Up (a gate that does realtime non-steadi transfer and non-realtime pin transfer), and JumpFree (Cintel's 'real time' steady transfer gate). The first three are third-party systems. I've not worked on PinUp for a long time, and ask that anyone who has recent experience with it please contribute here. The effectiveness of Steadi-Gate pin registration systems is almost entirely a result of engineering setup. I've worked on systems that were excellent, and systems that were less steady than realtime transfer done on an RTS gate. RTS and JumpFree can be very effective-- the RTS system in one telecine suite where I worked was extremely close to the specification from the top pin gate in use at that company at the time (but this difference was occasionally worth using the pin gate; see below). On the Spirit, steadiness appears to be outstanding and on a par with the realtime systems I've used on Cintel machines. I'm aware that a pin registration system has been in development for the Spirit- is it in use? Perhaps someone here will enlighten us. I've seen in the last few years a progression away from doing (non-realtime) pin registration, and toward using RTS or JumpFree systems. These are supplemented nicely by the steadying capability of the Henry or Flame... the question of using non-realtime pin registration for transfer now has been, in my recent experience, determined by: 1) the client's comfort with realtime systems 2) the client's comfort with the compositor's ability 3) the time and budget for the job 4) the number of layers as shot. The best pin registration system, on a Cintel machine, will outperform the best realtime system, but in some cases not by much, and this difference may not be discernible in the final composite. However, for some multi-layer composite jobs, the best pin registration systems I've used (and as I mentioned, these differ markedly from machine to machine, given the same models of telecine and gate) show this difference to be worthwhile. example: motion control shot of starship flying through space. Pass 1 from camera is over green screen; camera pass 2 is exposed for the running lights on the ship; camera pass 3 is exposed for shadow detail. Pass 2 contains tiny, individual windows, which will need to match perfectly those on pass 1 and 3... the smallest error in registration will affect the composite. Assuming the camera is as close to perfect as possible, the accuracy of the telecine's pin registration will determine the quality of the composite, unless and until the compositor intercedes with steadying of his/her own. additional questions: is the job thousands of feet of film, or is it a few takes of one shot? Is the job a live action on green screen, with background and animation to be added later, and with no static, reference, foreground objects (if this is the case, probably the green screen element can be transferred on a realtime registration system). What are the budget ramifications of spending hours correcting the steadiness in Flame, versus spending the time in telecine? Sometimes there are multiple solutions for the questions, one will work as well as another, and the only differences will be money and time spent. Rob Lingelbach Senior Colorist, Filmworkers Club Dallas -- Rob Lingelbach | "I would give nothing for that man's religion rob@alegria.com | whose very dog and cat are not the better for it." www.alegria.com --Rowland Hill, "Village Dialogues" From: DCFWTX@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:20:37 EDT To: rob@alegria.com, telecine internet group Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate In a message dated 98-10-22 11:00:20 EDT, you write: << Assuming the camera is as close to perfect as possible, the accuracy of the telecine's pin registration will determine the quality of the composite, unless and until the compositor intercedes with steadying of his/her own. >> Rob and Steve McWilliams, As an editor/compositor, what advise do you and others give regarding what to tell clients about to shoot layered material in so much as to what kind of camera has the best steadiness control ? I am referring to your comment above "...assuming the camera is close to perfect as possible...". What camera is the choice these days ? I sometimes get frantic phone calls from clients with shoot days upon them with these type questions. It would be comforting to know what camera to use and what direction to go in the transfer i.e. steadigate (as you answered before) . Are there specific camera choices that mandate a specific telecine steady gate procedure ? David Crosthwait Modern Videofilm Burbank, CA From: Veenotph@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:26:39 EDT To: telecine@alegria.com Subject: Re: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate In a message dated 10/22/1998 11:01:09, you wrote: << I'm aware that a pin registration system has been in development for the Spirit- is it in use? Perhaps someone here will enlighten us.>> I think it is some form of infrared sensor, that is supposed to be easily integrated into Already existant Machines. I heard about it at a SMPTE section meeting, but It was a while ago, and I forget the details. Steven Gladstone http://members.aol.com/veenotph From: Veenotph@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:42:06 EDT To: telecine@alegria.com Subject: Re: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. In a message dated 10/22/1998 11:25:34, you wrote: <> A well maintained camera is steady. A poorly maintained camera is not. I had an old Eclair A.C.L. ( 16mm) The Specs on that camera was vertical stability of 1/1000 the image height. Aaton's are spec'd at 1/2000 of image height if I recall. I am not sure of Arri - SR Specifications. Is 16mm still being steadied by a side roller, that I think would tend to favor the Aaton, over the Arri ( which has a reg pin). In 35 mm. Oxberry, with Pins that are part of the Aperature plate and never move is steadiest - IMHO ( also in 16mm) Mitchell, has two Reg pins, , as done Panavision ( I'm not sure if both are fully fitting, I think Only one is.) The Arri 35BL -1 had four pull down claws ( two double pronged claws) and two Reg pins, later 35 BL madels had just two pull down claws. ( two reg pins, one fully fitting, one has a little clearance side to side I believe.) Arri IIc, No reg pin ( A well maintained camera ...) Arri III Has a single Reg pin, however it engages a perf other than the perf engaged by an optical printer for registration, so in theory it could be a problem. (I have worked on commercials which used an Arri III for doing composites, and they were fine.) However For film Matte roll opticals, an Arri III isn't used very often ( ever?) I'm not sure of the newer generation of Arri Cameras, the 535, and the 435, however I believe both have two Reg pins, and they both engage the Industry standard perf ( as in the 35 BL system) I can't swear to the moviecam, it has been a while since I've seen it, but I believe it also has the two Reg pins. Hope this helps Steven Gladstone http://members.aol.com/veenotph From: rob@alegria.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:28:43 -0500 To: DCFWTX@aol.com, multiple recipients of Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate On Oct 22, 11:20, DCFWTX@aol.com wrote: } Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate > what kind of > camera has the best steadiness control? I believe the Mitchell camera movement has long been the standard of the industry for steadiness. Would someone from the effects/production environment care to comment further on other choices? --Rob FWC Dallas -- Rob Lingelbach | "I would give nothing for that man's religion rob@alegria.com | whose very dog and cat are not the better for it." www.alegria.com --Rowland Hill, "Village Dialogues" From: rob@alegria.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:53:00 -0500 To: Veenotph@aol.com, multiple recipients of Subject: Re: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. On Oct 22, 11:42, Veenotph@aol.com wrote: } Subject: Re: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. > A well maintained camera is steady. A poorly maintained camera is not. > I had an old Eclair A.C.L. ( 16mm) The Specs on that camera was vertical Steven's answer reminds me that the original question didn't specify that the discussion was limited to 35mm. However, I've worked on very little 16mm shot for compositing work. > In 35 mm. > Oxberry, with Pins that are part of the Aperature plate and never move is > steadiest - IMHO ( also in 16mm) Is the Oxberry used for motion control stage situations, as well as animation stand (flat art) setups? > Mitchell, has two Reg pins, , as done Panavision ( I'm not sure if both are > fully fitting, I think Only one is.) the fairly common Steadifilm products I'd mentioned in the previous have two pins, one fully fitting and the other a guide pin. That fully fitting pin is at the northwest corner of a typical 35mm frame, and in telecine steady tests, we usually look at the southeast corner as exhibiting the most variation, due to the distance from the pin. --Rob FWC Dallas -- Rob Lingelbach | "I would give nothing for that man's religion rob@alegria.com | whose very dog and cat are not the better for it." www.alegria.com --Rowland Hill, "Village Dialogues" From: bob@bluescreen.com To: Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:59:53 GMT >> what kind of >> camera has the best steadiness control? > >I believe the Mitchell camera movement has long been the standard of >the industry for steadiness. Would someone from the >effects/production environment care to comment further on other >choices? > >--Rob > Yes, a well maintained Mitchell is the venerable workhorse of steady shooting, as long as you're shooting MOS :-). Still really the best, especially for multi-pass moco work. Most of the Panavision and newer Arri cameras with the double claw work well as long as they have been maintained correctly. Hard to overemphasize this: the camera must have been maintained by a trained pro who understands the importance of precision alignment. Most reputable rental houses will let clients shoot a steady test to ensure that things are working right. As for clients who call at the very last minute (night before or day of the shoot) in a panic, they deserve to pay the price for extensive post work to fix their lack of foresight or hiring or inexperienced personnel. I am seeing more and more of this, as people doing effects shoots hire less experienced crews and rent from the house with the cheapest rates, then freak out when there are problems once they walk into post. Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From: Veenotph@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:19:52 EDT To: telecine@alegria.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. In a message dated 10/22/1998 12:54:09, you wrote: <> I was just giving a short list of cameras. The Oxberry is Usually mounted on an Animation stand, but As I used to Shoot motion graphics, and towards the end of my doing that, the client wanted separate passes so they could control the color, it does still apply. I haven't seen an Oxberry on a mo-con rig, it doesn't mean it hasn't been done, I haven't seen it. I believe the Bell and Howell 2709 has the same arrangement for Registration as the Oxberry. The F.P.S. limit on an Oxberry is 16-18 F.P.S., or somewhere in there. I didn't mention the Panastar ( High speed up to 120 F.P.s. I think, which has reg pins), The Willcam series, Any of the Photosonic camera, the Image 300, or others, as I don't know enough about them. In 16mm high speed, I beleive the Redlake Locam has reg pins, however the Ultra high speed, Hycam ( up to 11,000 F.P.S. ) has neither Reg pins, nor pull down claws, it is a rotating prism camera. There are many different Mitchell cameras, and some variations on the movements between them, although I think that is mostly to accomodate Sound. Steven Gladstone http://members.aol.com/veenotph From: bob@bluescreen.com To: Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:48:37 GMT On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:53:00 -0500, you wrote: >Steven's answer reminds me that the original question didn't specify >that the discussion was limited to 35mm. However, I've worked on very >little 16mm shot for compositing work. > I usually recommend against 16 for compositing, although not as strongly as I used to. An ideal person to comment on this topic is Dave Satin at SMA. Dave is Mister Inside/Mister Outside, being involved in both production and post, and has seen a lot of effects neg flow under the bridge. Plus, his place has both Rank and Philips machines, as well as the electronic steadying toys. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From: Kevin Ayres To: multiple recipients of Subject: RE: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:01:29 -0400 > >that the discussion was limited to 35mm. However, I've worked on > very 35mm neg can be supplied with either BH type perforations(Bell&Howell,negative type) or KS(Kodak Standard, positive). The BH has tolerance designed for a steady image during record and the KS have a shape designed for durability. Positive or negative describe the shape of the perf not the film used. Does this cause issue in the project? Or with all the steadying gear used,is it not a consideration? ka producers color service From: rob@alegria.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:27:22 -0500 To: Kevin Ayres , multiple recipients of Subject: RE: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. On Oct 22, 19:01, Kevin Ayres wrote: } Subject: RE: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. > The BH has tolerance designed for a steady image > during record and the KS have a shape designed for durability. > Does this cause issue in the project? > Or with all the steadying gear used,is it not a consideration? It is a big consideration with the pin registration systems I've used (I've certainly not used them all however)- they are optimized for BH perforation. I've mostly used the Steadifilm Adam gate on an Ursa, which is probably the most common type of pin registration system, and when the gate is finely tuned for best steady transfer, the type of film and perf tolerance are critical to success. With negative, I've found generally that the film needs to have very little 'curl', and also needs to have been recently processed --or at least recently run through a wet cleaner-- I think this is related to the curl, which is less pronounced when the film is not desiccated or dry. If the curl of the film is reversed-- for example, if the film is flopped on the telecine-- pin registration with a system optimized for the opposite curl becomes difficult. In this regard, transfer of registered print-- film printed on a registered optical printer, with BH perf (print normally has KR perfs)-- must often be done flopped, as attention is paid to the east-west, or side-to-side, curl of the film. The setup, use of, and continuing maintenance of pin registration systems are black arts. I remember the first such system in Los Angeles, circa 1985, cloaked in a shroud of secrecy, such that mere visiting mortal colorists and engineers were not to observe its operation or design. Is this system, at Composite Image Systems, Hollywood, still in daily use? --Rob Lingelbach FWC Dallas -- Rob Lingelbach | "I would give nothing for that man's religion rob@alegria.com | whose very dog and cat are not the better for it." www.alegria.com --Rowland Hill, "Village Dialogues" Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:45:18 -0400 From: Ken Robinson To: Rob Lingelbach Subject: [TIG] Pin reg I have been a user of many of the systems mentioned. Down here, near the end of the earth almost nothing is transferred via Pin registration. In fact in my travels I haven't used one since operating a machine in the Philippines! The advantages of the Pin Up were that you didn't have to worry about recorrecting images when you changed gates as with Steady gate. However it seemed to me that it needed a little more looking after, maintenance wise. And Rob's comments regarding the state of the negative are completely accurate, one needs to have the negative in a pliable/soft state, not only so the sprocket holes are the correct size, but also the pins go in smoothly! And finally, the real difference between pin reg. and real time steadiness is the twisting factor of the physical pins. Ken -- ***************************** Ken Robinson Imagen Transfer Ltda. Santiago de Chile 186,282.396 miles per second. Not just a good idea..... It's the LAW! Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:53:15 -0400 From: Tim Bond To: TIG Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. Kevin Ayres wrote: > > 35mm neg can be supplied with either BH type > perforations(Bell&Howell,negative type) When dealing with the neg in post, how can you determine whether it is BH or KS? Tim Bond DuArt Video From: rob@alegria.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:41:38 -0600 To: bond007@concentric.net, multiple recipients of Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. On Oct 26, 5:53, Tim Bond wrote: } Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. > When dealing with the neg in post, how can you determine whether it is > BH or KS? I don't recall the last time I saw original camera negative with perfs other than BH. A quick way to tell though is to look at the perfs: BH type have corners more rounded. --Rob FWC Dallas -- Rob Lingelbach | "I would give nothing for that man's religion rob@alegria.com | whose very dog and cat are not the better for it." www.alegria.com --Rowland Hill, "Village Dialogues" From: "laura jean bontempo" To: Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:22:40 -0600 Subject: [TIG] steadiness Setting up the new room in Boston! I just heard that Brian is no longer at Steadifilm in Atlanta (he's been with TKI for a couple months?). Who is the contact at Steadifilm now? I plan to check steadiness on our new Diamond to see how good the Cintel gate/jumpfree is before I buy an RTS gate or something else. What test films do people use? I had only used the ones that came with the RTS gates. As far as steadying film transfers goes, I have been a believer in SteadiFilm's RTS gates w/ Metaspeed-plus for Cintel machines. It works great on Skyviews' Cintel Turbo+ machines. Long ago forgotten are the nights spent pinning in NON-real-time! Production people should remember that RTS or pinning in telecine only removes the "telecine ride" imperfections of constant motion telecines, thus only steadying the film to match the steadiness to which the camera captured the images. This anomaly (once awful) has been shrunk to very tolerable imperfections for most composting situations as new technology finds its way into new machines and hot-rodded machines. Greg Dildine Colorist Finish - Boston Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:45:22 +0100 To: multiple recipients of From: holmsey@indigo.ie (Paul Holmes) Subject: [TIG] Steady Why such talk of steady gates etc. in these days of Henry, Flame etc.??? Obviously, we need to achieve a certain level of steadiness in TK, but is there still such a requirement for absolute stability? PH ***************************************************************** Red Rage Productions Limited 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2, Ireland Tel: 353-1-6623582 Fax: 353-1-6763865 e-mail: "holmsey@indigo.ie" Mobile: Int + 353 87 2473880 ***************************************************************** From: Dean Humphus Subject: Re: [TIG] Steady To: telecine@alegria.com ---Paul Holmes wrote: > > Why such talk of steady gates etc. in these days of Henry, Flame etc.??? No. Repeatability. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: bob@bluescreen.com To: Subject: Re: [TIG] Steady Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:54:39 GMT On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:45:22 +0100, you wrote: >Why such talk of steady gates etc. in these days of Henry, Flame etc.??? >Obviously, we need to achieve a certain level of steadiness in TK, but is >there still such a requirement for absolute stability? > Not if: a. you have buckets of money, or b. you get your Henry/Flame etc. time at a flat rate Just about everything can be fixed later. Everything. The question is, where is the money spent most effectively? My experience (working on the production end and having the artists drop by the set) has been that many digital artists want you to leave everything to them, no matter how long it takes or how much it costs the client. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From: Veenotph@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:03:25 EST To: telecine@alegria.com Subject: Re: Re: [TIG] Steady In a message dated 10/27/1998 12:02:09, you wrote: <> So do you send them a blank tape? Steven Gladstone From: bob@bluescreen.com To: telecine@alegria.com Subject: Re: [TIG] Steady Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:17:53 GMT >So do you send them a blank tape? That would be a lot of fun, but part of my job is to try to prevent the client having a heart attack, not cause one. But there are days... --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 10:21:49 -0800 From: Bob Buckner To: telecine@alegria.com Subject: Re: [TIG] Real Time Steady Gate Which camera to use. Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I remember the first such system in Los > Angeles, circa 1985, cloaked in a shroud of secrecy, such that mere > visiting mortal colorists and engineers were not to observe its > operation or design. Is this system, at Composite Image Systems, > Hollywood, still in daily use? I worked for a number of years at CIS on their "Electronic Optical Printer" and I understand that two of them are still in use today in Hollywood at CIS. The EOP is an extensively modified MKIII Rank that can only do pin registered transfer. It is supported by standard disk recorders and noise reducers that have been systematized with proprietary control software to allow incredible flexibility in compositing images directly off the telecine. The Henry and Flame systems have rendered most of this obsolete, at least in the eyes of most customers. (Who do you know that composites in the telecine suite today?) The EOP telecines still are the best pin registered machines going for steadiness in that they use an Acme type movement. They can pin just about any Bell and Howell perf 35mm film in just about any condition. They are also blindingly quick compared to the Steadifilm gates. They can also do Vista Vision. Whether the image quality of the EOP can compete with an URSA Diamond is open to question, but if you are doing multiple layers that have to be rock steady, the EOP is great. Bob Buckner Editel-LA I don't get anything from CIS for saying this- if this seems to be an advertisement. They just built some cool hardware and I had a good time working on it.