From chili.styles at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 15:28:36 2016 From: chili.styles at gmail.com (Bojan Mastilovic) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 16:28:36 +0200 Subject: [Tig] How does black and white film age? In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: Dear Jim and Jeff, thanks for your answers, they are really helpful. It is so good to have knowledgeable people like you around! All the best, Bojan On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Jim Houston wrote: > > > On Mar 31, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Bojan Mastilovic via Tig > wrote: > > Or does it become more contrasty? We have looked at different copies of > the same film and they are all different. > > Any idea what to look for in the old copy to guess the black and white > > levels as well as contrast. > > Original negatives change only if they were insufficiently washed > of developer and they might therefore have a higher base density (base+fog) > than when first used. But in general, black and white is more stable than > color film. Looking at old prints can be confusing because the ?taste? > for how much contrast and density is in the film was different for earlier > audiences. > Lighting was also often fairly ?high-key? expecting that the prints were > going to > have a limited brightness and contrast in the theaters. > > It is important to figure out where the source prints came from that you > are looking at. > Black and white film developing was *very* non-standard and almost > a ?black art?. Also, It was normal to take BW through an interpositive and > internegative for release, and these would both tend to build a little > contrast. > A normal internegative or interpolative would look grey with little > contrast. > > If not done carefully enough, the resulting print could have lost some > tonal > details in the highlights or shadows or be overly contrasty. B&W > developing and printing was > very sensitive to time and temperature in the bath so there was a fair > amount of variation in prints. Because of all of these interactions, > black and white film never had a straight-line ?gamma? even though > most of the literature plots films as if they did. Most of the > ?rendering? > of the film for audience viewing was accomplished in the print > step, so scanning B&W film and looking at the result can be very > misleading. A 1DLUT can accomplish wonders to fix the image. > > Since audiences of the time were used to seeing less contrast in > projection, by today?s taste, most black and white films have > significant enhancements to contrast and blacks for digital projection. > Also recall that the color temperature for projection back then was > closer to 5000K or if you go back to the 20?s and 30?s even 3800K. > So some warming of the black is appropriate. > > You can likely ignore the ?yellow? print as that color is most likely > coming from the film print base. > > The one with slightly grey and elevated blacks may be the best bet, > but really it is going to be a matter of taste, as I don?t think you > will be able to get back to the original intent. > > Hope this helps. > > > Jim Houston > Starwatcher Digital > Pasadena, CA > > -- Bojan Mastilovic Producer Restart Production www.restart.si From Craig.Dingwall at nfsa.gov.au Tue Apr 5 01:42:21 2016 From: Craig.Dingwall at nfsa.gov.au (Craig Dingwall) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2016 10:42:21 +1000 Subject: [Tig] How does black and white film age? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: If you have ever seen a nitrate film, the images are amazing. :-) From: Bojan Mastilovic via Tig To: Jim Houston , jeff at kinetta.com Cc: Andrew Webb via Tig Date: 02/04/2016 01:31 AM Subject: Re: [Tig] How does black and white film age? Sent by: "Tig" Sohonet www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ===== Dear Jim and Jeff, thanks for your answers, they are really helpful. It is so good to have knowledgeable people like you around! All the best, Bojan On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Jim Houston wrote: > > > On Mar 31, 2016, at 6:39 AM, Bojan Mastilovic via Tig > wrote: > > Or does it become more contrasty? We have looked at different copies of > the same film and they are all different. > > Any idea what to look for in the old copy to guess the black and white > > levels as well as contrast. > > Original negatives change only if they were insufficiently washed > of developer and they might therefore have a higher base density (base+fog) > than when first used. But in general, black and white is more stable than > color film. Looking at old prints can be confusing because the ?taste? > for how much contrast and density is in the film was different for earlier > audiences. > Lighting was also often fairly ?high-key? expecting that the prints were > going to > have a limited brightness and contrast in the theaters. > > It is important to figure out where the source prints came from that you > are looking at. > Black and white film developing was *very* non-standard and almost > a ?black art?. Also, It was normal to take BW through an interpositive and > internegative for release, and these would both tend to build a little > contrast. > A normal internegative or interpolative would look grey with little > contrast. > > If not done carefully enough, the resulting print could have lost some > tonal > details in the highlights or shadows or be overly contrasty. B&W > developing and printing was > very sensitive to time and temperature in the bath so there was a fair > amount of variation in prints. Because of all of these interactions, > black and white film never had a straight-line ?gamma? even though > most of the literature plots films as if they did. Most of the > ?rendering? > of the film for audience viewing was accomplished in the print > step, so scanning B&W film and looking at the result can be very > misleading. A 1DLUT can accomplish wonders to fix the image. > > Since audiences of the time were used to seeing less contrast in > projection, by today?s taste, most black and white films have > significant enhancements to contrast and blacks for digital projection. > Also recall that the color temperature for projection back then was > closer to 5000K or if you go back to the 20?s and 30?s even 3800K. > So some warming of the black is appropriate. > > You can likely ignore the ?yellow? print as that color is most likely > coming from the film print base. > > The one with slightly grey and elevated blacks may be the best bet, > but really it is going to be a matter of taste, as I don?t think you > will be able to get back to the original intent. > > Hope this helps. > > > Jim Houston > Starwatcher Digital > Pasadena, CA > > -- Bojan Mastilovic Producer Restart Production www.restart.si _______________________________________________ http://colorist.org To change subscription options, see http://tig.colorist.org/mailman/listinfo/tig From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Tue Apr 5 08:55:29 2016 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2016 08:55:29 +0100 Subject: [Tig] How does black and white film age? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57036F71.5080708@filmlight.ltd.uk> On 04/05/2016 01:42 AM, tig-request at colorist.org wrote: > But the question was how to know how the bw colors looked like on film when is released. We are working on a restoration project for a film from 1956. We projected 4 copies, all looked different. One was slightly yellow, other was grey without contrast, one was really contrasty and one is slightly gray with elevated blacks. The dvd copy is made in 1990s from the festival copy and probably has some grading on it too. How can we judge from this materials how this film supposed to look ? Black and white film does not age much. However, different lengths of film can get random tints, such a subtle yellows or blues or even pinks on the light tones, even when it is new. I do not know what this is, but I suspect it is some interference effect. In cinemas you adapted to the colour pretty quickly, but you were aware of cuts, or changes or reel - particularly newsreels when they went from the national news to the local news. The correct contrast is difficult to judge. I would go with your slightly yellow copy because it has the best contrast, and so it likely to be the earliest copy. Second- and third-generation copies will tend to have more contrast if you print in the middle of the tone curve. But they won't have the colour jumps at the cuts, as they will be printed all in one go. > From: Jeff Kreines > Sometimes labs print B&W films on color positive stock (it?s cheaper) but there is a special ring of hell reserved for those labs. That would be the first circle of the Inferno, reserved for virtuous pagans. Remember the film 'The Man Who Wasn't There?'. That was supposed to be a black and white film. However, even though we had Soho Labs back in those days, there still was not the process control you had to have for colour film. They must have run test strips, but there was no equivalent for the LAD patch. Another problem is the considerable Callier effect you get with black and white film. This means that the intensities you get on the screen do not really correspond to the densities you get on the densitometer. Most projector optics will have been pretty consistent at about f/4 if you are going back to the 1950's, so it is possible to come up with a consistent measurement and preview technique. The black and white film will have a very high density but it will also scatter, so the deepest black will depend on how much white there is in the film. This is okay, because we also have scatter within our eyeballs, and the brain compensates for both. But it does make process control hard. There was also much less black and white processing being done, so it was harder to get consistent results; while the colour processing was running all the time, and the chemicals were fresher. In the end, they just got a better result quicker using black and white film. And they did not get the strange tints. It's not a bad way to go. However, it is hard to find a lab at all these days, so maybe we will all go back to black and white. > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Jim Houston > wrote: > Since audiences of the time were used to seeing less contrast in > projection, by today's taste, most black and white films have > significant enhancements to contrast and blacks for digital projection. > Also recall that the color temperature for projection back then was > closer to 5000K or if you go back to the 20's and 30's even 3800K. > So some warming of the black is appropriate. If you want the authentic experience, you have to remember that people were allowed to smoke in cinemas. The projector beam used to be this brilliant shaft of light. Now you can hardly see it from the side. Hope this helps. Cheers Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From rjacostab at yahoo.com Thu Apr 14 14:54:25 2016 From: rjacostab at yahoo.com (Ricardo Acosta) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2016 13:54:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Super 8 Gate References: <2098340459.481734.1460642065489.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2098340459.481734.1460642065489.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello tiggers:I wonder how much would a Super-8 gate for an Ursa Diamond (Jump Free) would cost and if there are any for sale.Also, would anybody need an Ursa CRT? I got one I may sell. It was bought from Cine Solutions as it was the tube used in their test machine and has been kept in its box in the best conditions. It has but a few hours of use.Best regards:?Ricardo J. Acosta Bruzual?Telecine de Venezuela, C.A.?Tlf: (0212) 283 8455 Ext. 185 From myron at posthouse.com Fri Apr 15 19:50:20 2016 From: myron at posthouse.com (Myron Lenenski) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2016 14:50:20 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Wanted: 35mm optical sound pickup for Magnatech 636B Message-ID: <119B6377D0F2447E956C6782A983DEAC@GATEWAYDECKLINK> Rob, Could you help me find one of these? Myron Lenenski CinePost 2160 Kingston Ct. Ste.N Marietta, GA 30067 678-238-0800 www.posthouse.com 404-784-1771 (cell) From roblingelbach at icloud.com Mon Apr 18 16:55:46 2016 From: roblingelbach at icloud.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:55:46 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Wanted: 35mm Optical Sound Pickup for Magnatech 636B Message-ID: <1EF83A59-4735-4248-BB44-3B4C8609E994@icloud.com> To the TIG: Myron Lenenski of CinePost is looking for a 35mm optical sound pickup for Magnatech 636B. Myron can be found at: CinePost 2160 Kingston Ct. Ste.N Marietta, GA 30067 678-238-0800 www.posthouse.com 404-784-1771 (cell) This was posted last Friday but Myron wanted me to emphasize its importance... And thanks in advance to anyone who can help. Rob TIG admin/flounder roblingelbach at icloud.com From gawler at earthlink.net Wed Apr 27 11:58:40 2016 From: gawler at earthlink.net (gawler at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 13:58:40 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Fw: new message Message-ID: <0000a7b6e90f$4fd2fed3$9cfab35b$@earthlink.net> Hello! You have a new message, please read gawler at earthlink.net