From mfw at musictrax.com  Mon Mar  1 02:26:48 2010
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 18:26:48 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Kodak
In-Reply-To: <17DB1321-345B-4415-A7C1-2FCF206F1302@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <C7B065E8.154B6%mfw@musictrax.com>

On 2/27/10 11:35 PM, "Rob Lingelbach" <rob at colorist.org> wrote:

> I don't recall ever seeing the film with SMPTE
> code, though I had heard of it in the course of work in the 1980s. If I'm
> not mistaken, there were difficulties with it, though I don't remember why.
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

I think there were a lot of problems with head alignment and RF level off
the recording, and I can remember doing a test with it at Modern Videofilm
around 1982-1983.  But the biggest problem was that Kodak couldn't get any
of the camera manufacturers interested in supporting a magnetic timecode
standard for film.

Eventually, Aaton used a similar idea to just burn the timecode as a barcode
into the edge of the film, but even that never achieved critical mass, at
least in the U.S.  And they bitterly fought other companies (like Evertz)
who wanted to try to read the same TC information off the film.  In
retrospect, I think if they had given away the system for free -- or very
inexpensively -- then it might have been widely adopted by Panavision, Arri,
and so on, and it might have been a big success.

Not gonna happen now, though.  This is one of a thousand great Kodak ideas
that never quite went anywhere, which is sad.

--Marc Wielage
www.cinesound.tv
 (818) 486-7747





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon Mar  1 17:01:49 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:01:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize
In-Reply-To: <8B8B5C9D-3CB5-4C4B-994E-7589E8032618@kava.fi>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1002240937500.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<8B8B5C9D-3CB5-4C4B-994E-7589E8032618@kava.fi>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003011057110.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Mikko Kuutti wrote:

> GraphicConverter for the mac has now been updated to "Gamma aware 
> scaling" by its author Thorsten Lemke. He made the change having 
> been prompted by a couple of the user base and kindly provided the 
> following link for those interested:

The problem is not so much of being "gamma aware".  The problem is 
that for most input images, it is not possible to know how to 
precisely convert the image to a linear-light representation.  If it 
is done wrong, there will be some damage.

DPX/Cineon files often use Cineon Log or similar log scaling which 
causes similar concerns to gamma.  So if you wanted to scale/operate 
in a linear-light space, the curve applied to the data would need to 
be precisely understood so that it can be backed out, and then 
re-applied.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From mikko.kuutti at kava.fi  Mon Mar  1 15:27:42 2010
From: mikko.kuutti at kava.fi (Mikko Kuutti)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:27:42 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1002240937500.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1002240937500.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <8B8B5C9D-3CB5-4C4B-994E-7589E8032618@kava.fi>

Hi all,

GraphicConverter for the mac has now been updated to "Gamma aware scaling" by its author Thorsten Lemke. He made the change having been prompted by a couple of the user base and kindly provided the following link for those interested:

http://www.lemkesoft.org/beta.html

I have no affiliation, only that I've used the app since the nineties.

Best,

Mikko

Mikko Kuutti
Deputy Director
National Audiovisual Archive
Sörnäisten rantatie 25, P.O. BOX 16, FI-00501 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455

On 24.2.2010, at 17.43, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2009.
> Company 3 supports the TIG.
> ====
> 
> The article at
> 
>  http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma.html
> 
> provides a facinating description of why resizing in linear-light can be important in order to achieve a correct result.  GraphicsMagick does not do this by default, but explicit gamma correction steps "cure" the problem:
> 
>  gm convert gamma_dalai_lama_gray.jpg -gamma 0.45 -resize 50% -gamma 2.2 resized.jpg
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Bob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From rob at colorist.org  Tue Mar  2 03:50:59 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:50:59 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Classified postings.
Message-ID: <F7A1154A-023A-4ADE-AADE-B650C806EB8F@colorist.org>

See http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds
for more details on the following:

Available:
-----------

Northlight 1 Scanner

Tangent CP-100 Color Panel

2 HFE Film Cleaners

Shadow

FULL SUITE (including Telecine & Da Vinci 2k Plus)

Autodesk Flame v2009, Complete System

For sale GATES

Jeff Christopherson. Digital Film Engineer, D.I. Supervisor,  
Consultant, Manager.

Rob Lingelbach, Colorist, Consultant, Systems Administrator

Jim Mann, Freelance Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist

Stuart Blake Jones - Freelance Colorist-Consultant-Instructor-Writer

Adam Halasz colourist

Bob Lovejoy, highly experienced colorist

Luciano Martins, Jr. Colorist/Assistant Colorist

Drake Conrad, DI Colorist, Digital Film Supervisor

Dave Larson: Telecine/Facility Engineer


Wanted:
----------

HD card for Spirit Datacine

Northlight One Scanner

16mm gate for Arriscan needed



Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at cinelab.com  Tue Mar  2 20:53:47 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:53:47 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
Message-ID: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>

Hi All

I received the MC Color from Euphonix yesterday to sit beside their MC Control on our Color system which is a 8-Core Mac Pro with a 4890 1G video card with a 12Tb Rocket Raid setup and a Panasonic 42" 11UK pro plasma. 

The Euphonix Panels are very nicely made especially for the price and they installed and integrated with Color in a matter of minutes. They are a sturdy set of panels for less than $2k for both MC-Color and MC-Control I am happy I got those over the Wave.

Now if Apple would do something with this buggy piece of crap app or somebody (Hint Hint Blackmagic Design or Filmlight!!!) would release a software alternative for the mac that would replace Color.

Not that Filmlight already has the App ready to go or anything....Hint....

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Tue Mar  2 22:34:58 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:34:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021633270.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Robert Houllahan wrote:
>
> Now if Apple would do something with this buggy piece of crap app or 
> somebody (Hint Hint Blackmagic Design or Filmlight!!!) would release 
> a software alternative for the mac that would replace Color.
>
> Not that Filmlight already has the App ready to go or 
> anything....Hint....

Are you suggesting that because Filmlight currently uses Linux and 
OS-X is Unix that Filmlight could port its software to OS-X?

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From josh at joshpetok.com  Tue Mar  2 21:18:58 2010
From: josh at joshpetok.com (Josh Petok)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:18:58 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <7200515F-C7DD-41A5-95BD-E28399966C58@joshpetok.com>

On Mar 2, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Robert Houllahan wrote:

> 
> Now if Apple would do something with this buggy piece of crap app or somebody (Hint Hint Blackmagic Design or Filmlight!!!) would release a software alternative for the mac that would replace Color.
> 
> Not that Filmlight already has the App ready to go or anything....Hint....

Did you mean something like this??? ;)

http://www.scottsimmons.tv/blog/2009/04/22/this-is-davinci-resolve-software-running-on-a-laptop/

Josh Petok
www.joshpetok.com

From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Tue Mar  2 22:16:17 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:16:17 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <F69463E5-FACA-4D6A-893B-E140F75C9E57@prestodigital.ca>

I think everybody knows(?) that a "field" version of Baselight has  
been available for years that runs on a Mac.  Reasonably priced, I'd  
do it in a heartbeat.


On 2-Mar-10, at 1:53 PM, Robert Houllahan wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> ====
>
> Hi All
>
> I received the MC Color from Euphonix yesterday to sit beside their  
> MC Control on our Color system which is a 8-Core Mac Pro with a  
> 4890 1G video card with a 12Tb Rocket Raid setup and a Panasonic  
> 42" 11UK pro plasma.
>
> The Euphonix Panels are very nicely made especially for the price  
> and they installed and integrated with Color in a matter of  
> minutes. They are a sturdy set of panels for less than $2k for both  
> MC-Color and MC-Control I am happy I got those over the Wave.
>
> Now if Apple would do something with this buggy piece of crap app  
> or somebody (Hint Hint Blackmagic Design or Filmlight!!!) would  
> release a software alternative for the mac that would replace Color.
>
> Not that Filmlight already has the App ready to go or  
> anything....Hint....
>
> -Rob-
>
> Robert Houllahan
> rob at cinelab.com
> Colorist-Director
> www.cinelab.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From rob at cinelab.com  Tue Mar  2 22:58:48 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:58:48 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021633270.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021633270.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <939AC3E7-09D3-4A34-868D-BF42400A2579@cinelab.com>

> Are you suggesting that because Filmlight currently uses Linux and OS-X is Unix that Filmlight could port its software to OS-X?

They have BL for OSX already it runs on Macbook Pro hardware ( I suppose as an 'assist')  I have seen it, so I am just hinting that a OSX version would be a nice product like Smoke for OSX and whatever BMD is cooking, but that last one is just an assumption..

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From rob at cinelab.com  Tue Mar  2 23:25:12 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 18:25:12 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <7200515F-C7DD-41A5-95BD-E28399966C58@joshpetok.com>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
	<7200515F-C7DD-41A5-95BD-E28399966C58@joshpetok.com>
Message-ID: <7F42E949-E7BF-424A-8EA5-18EB92FEC1E1@cinelab.com>

> 
> Did you mean something like this??? ;)
> 
> http://www.scottsimmons.tv/blog/2009/04/22/this-is-davinci-resolve-software-running-on-a-laptop/

Yeah exactly like that....

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Tue Mar  2 23:52:30 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:52:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <F69463E5-FACA-4D6A-893B-E140F75C9E57@prestodigital.ca>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com>
	<F69463E5-FACA-4D6A-893B-E140F75C9E57@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021745150.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Joe Owens wrote:

> I think everybody knows(?) that a "field" version of Baselight has been 
> available for years that runs on a Mac.  Reasonably priced, I'd do it in a 
> heartbeat.

Do you mean reasonably priced as compared with BaseLight 8, or 
reasonably priced compared with Apple Color or Adobe Photoshop?

How would a small company like Filmlight make a sufficient profit if 
they remove their own dedicated harware from the equation?

Note that the Baselight 4 & 8 hardware was cutting edge when it was 
designed but if one starts over with this-year's hardware (and I am 
not talking about stagnant Apple hardware) it can be done with much 
smaller and faster computers since CPUs will be available with 8 cores 
this year.  So a reasonably small two socket system would have at 
least the crunching capacity of at least a "Baselight 16".  storage 
I/O is the main challenge.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From weagles at bigpond.net.au  Wed Mar  3 01:49:52 2010
From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (warren eagles)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:49:52 +1000
Subject: [Tig] re Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <mailman.186.1267563978.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.186.1267563978.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <E815238B-4C94-4532-8D3F-C712609BDDC2@bigpond.net.au>

Hi Robert,

Glad you liked the Euphonix, I had a quick play at IBC but would like  
to see it again
now it is released.
As for the "Buggy piece of crap app"  (Color) You have choices you  
don't have to use it.
At the end of the day you only get what you pay for.

BMD and Filmlight make quality products that are continually evolving,
I don't think they should jump into the low end market and if they did
the price point wouldn't be $1500 would it?



Warren Eagles
Freelance Colorist
Australia
Color owner, Resolve and Baselight user






From rob at colorist.org  Wed Mar  3 04:25:05 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:25:05 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Colorists on the TIG
Message-ID: <2BCD1334-6682-4D35-B8DF-2026AE7EF657@colorist.org>

The TIG Colorist Directory has new entries.  There are several  
advantages to listing yourself here at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Category:Colorist

--high results in search engines, due to the TIG's 18-year history
    and visibility
--no charge (though, donations are encouraged).
--reel streaming capacity (please contact rob at colorist.org)
--photo, links, self-editing variability and flexibility
--an open-source community, completely
--participation in other areas of the TIG

to see an example of all the functions, go to
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Test_colorist

--
Rob Lingelbach  TIG admin, founder
rob at colorist.org



From dshannon at nfts.co.uk  Wed Mar  3 09:59:41 2010
From: dshannon at nfts.co.uk (Doug Shannon)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:59:41 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com><F69463E5-FACA-4D6A-893B-E140F75C9E57@prestodigital.ca>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021745150.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B00033B073@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>

>>Note that the Baselight 4 & 8 hardware was cutting edge when it was designed but if one starts over with this-year's hardware (and I am not talking about stagnant Apple hardware) it can be done with much smaller and faster computers since CPUs will be available with 8 cores this year.  So a reasonably small two socket system would have at least the crunching capacity of at least a "Baselight 16".  storage I/O is the main challenge.

Bob, you realise that a Baselight 8 at present is eight eight-core (? Could be 16 cores now) commodity servers in a rack with a network switch and video combiner box that allows Filmlight to present it as a single system image in the suite (which runs on a ninth commodity PC)? And that they also combine the storage across the 8 servers as a single volume with ridiculous throughput? Which means that as pc hardware develops their systems get faster for free, at least on Filmlight's behalf.

Filmlight have been really clever using supercomputing methodology and techniques to create a system that scales with commodity hardware development. The only point they were lagging IMHO was GPU processing but they do that now as well. None of which takes away from the fact that they already have the mac app that I think they give you if you buy a system.

Not affiliated with Filmlight but we do own a Baselight.

Doug Shannon
Senior Systems Engineer
National Film And TV School
UK

From rob at cinelab.com  Wed Mar  3 13:46:01 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:46:01 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
Message-ID: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>

I think there is a entry price point around $15-20K that allot of people would pay to get into a better grading app for HD/2k I was not saying I thought that Resolve or Baselight should have a $1500 app to 'compete' with Color. 

I said Color was a buggy POC and it is true. The response is 'what do you want for free?' well Apple disingenuously advertises it as a full colorist suite as part of FCS3. Look at the Jag 'spot' on apple's web site with all the tracked shapes just don't close the app or walk away for too long all of those trackers will suddenly become non functional, etc. Color might be great eventually if Apple paid any attention to it. 


Computers are like a disease what starts as  complex and difficult becomes small and simple.

 
Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From simonastbury at hotmail.com  Wed Mar  3 15:08:52 2010
From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:08:52 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>



> I think there is a entry price point around $15-20K that allot of people would pay to get into a better grading app for HD/2k I was not saying I thought that Resolve or Baselight should have a $1500 app to 'compete' with Color. 
> 
> I said Color was a buggy POC and it is true. The response is 'what do you want for free?' well Apple disingenuously advertises it as a full colorist suite as part of FCS3. Look at the Jag 'spot' on apple's web site with all the tracked shapes just don't close the app or walk away for too long all of those trackers will suddenly become non functional, etc. Color might be great eventually if Apple paid any attention to it. 

So true, I have been full time on Color for 8 months now. I am so fed up of saying '... no I'm afraid it can't playback sound..... why? ...well you'll just have to ask Apple.' This is just one on a loooooong list of complaints. Do I have the choice to ask my CEO for a better system?... absolutely. Does he have the choice to laugh and say no! Youbetcha.I think a £20k software solution with optional hardware acceleration would be fantastic. I will not be able to persuade my boss to part with £100k or more without concrete evidence that turnover will increase appreciably. That is the reality. As at the moment I am busy and making great margins because of the low cost of the kit, it i extremely unlikely he will pay so much for an upgrade, if it was only £20k I could persuade him. More than that probably not. 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/

From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed Mar  3 16:41:28 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:41:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Robert Houllahan wrote:

> I think there is a entry price point around $15-20K that allot of 
> people would pay to get into a better grading app for HD/2k I was 
> not saying I thought that Resolve or Baselight should have a $1500 
> app to 'compete' with Color.

Maybe Filmlight should open source portable Baselight under the GPL 
license so that it can become "community" supported and go viral? 
This decision may seem rash, but it would propel Baselight to almost 
monopoly status while still allowing Filmlight to sell high-end 
proprietary systems based on it.  Apple's Color market would 
evaporate.

It would be a step as big as Netscape open sourcing Mozilla (which has 
brought us FireFox and Thunderbird).  Or Sun open sourcing OpenOffice, 
VirtualBox, and Solaris.  Or GPLed Ghostscript.  Or GPLed MySQL.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed Mar  3 17:25:00 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:25:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B00033B073@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com><F69463E5-FACA-4D6A-893B-E140F75C9E57@prestodigital.ca>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021745150.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B00033B073@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031116440.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote:

> Bob, you realise that a Baselight 8 at present is eight eight-core 
> (? Could be 16 cores now) commodity servers in a rack with a network 
> switch and video combiner box that allows Filmlight to present it as 
> a single system image in the suite (which runs on a ninth commodity 
> PC)? And that they also combine the storage across the 8 servers as 
> a single volume with ridiculous throughput? Which means that as pc 
> hardware develops their systems get faster for free, at least on 
> Filmlight's behalf.

Yes, I gather that the "Baselight 8" one buys today is not the 
"Baselight 8" sold three years ago.  I do admire the design.

I think that my point was that latest hardware could provide the level 
of satisfaction provided by the original "Baselight 8" without needing 
to be quite as massively parallel when it comes to coupled server 
systems.  The I/O issue is more difficult to solve.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Wed Mar  3 17:03:42 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:03:42 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>

Bearing in mind that the original license for Silicon Color "Final  
Touch2K" -- essentially what is packaged with FCS2 -- was US$27K.   
And it didn't work quite as well then as it does now....   ;-P

Seriously, though, referring to Final Cut as "pro" stretches  
incredulity...

On 3-Mar-10, at 8:08 AM, simon astbury wrote:

> xtremely unlikely he will pay so much for an upgrade, if it was  
> only £20k I could persuade him. More than that probably not. 		 	   		

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From rob at cinelab.com  Wed Mar  3 18:29:31 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:29:31 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <567705DC-6AF8-491D-9F23-189464634B9D@cinelab.com>

> Maybe Filmlight should open source portable Baselight under the GPL license so that it can become "community" supported and go viral?


I don't think this is something that will work, how many people really want to do fin color finishing work? I think more people will want to say they can or do than actually want to tackle the task. 

Unfortunately because of apple's disingenuous marketing everyone can say they do. I had a conversation with a guy from a local animation company the other night and he mentioned that they were getting 'into' color correction so I of course asked about monitoring and he said his partner had 'dragged' their CRT out and put it back into service because the 'monitors' they were using did not 'have any blacks' they are using apple 30" displays btw the crt? who knows but I bet it wasn't a bvm even.

So.... I do not see this trend really getting better but if there were a product at the 20K level that worked and supported all the pro formats you would want to grade and was a vehicle to get the individual colorist or small company colorist to gain traction as a valuable asset whose work could feed into seats of a more capable version of their system at bigger houses it might be a counter to the apple,etc. be all swissarmy knife does everything to 80% good mentality. 

I think it will be interesting to see where Smoke for OSX goes I know allot of smaller facilities are sick of FCP but will they go for the extra cash to get something really better? Will having Smkoe on mac make them more competitive and be able to turn projects better and faster?

I think that if the players who have the hi end of the market do not pay attention to the low end they may find the whole market eroded in a few years from a lack of foundation.

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From rickpags at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 18:55:11 2010
From: rickpags at yahoo.com (wbpags)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:55:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B00033B073@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
Message-ID: <225030.43683.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



-      The Baselight I've been working on has GPUs with 9 TBs of storage and I'm probably on the low end compared to the larger post houses.  Been working with the GPUs for almost a year now.  I'm like a junkie though b/c I'm jonsing for more!  "Faster...play faster"

  No affiliation with Filmlight other than a user.
   

====

>>Note that the Baselight 4 & 8 hardware was cutting edge when it was designed but if one starts over with this-year's hardware (and I am not talking about stagnant Apple hardware) it can be done with much smaller and faster computers since CPUs will be available with 8 cores this year.  So a reasonably small two socket system would have at least the crunching capacity of at least a "Baselight 16".  storage I/O is the main challenge.

Bob, you realise that a Baselight 8 at present is eight eight-core (? Could be 16 cores now) commodity servers in a rack with a network switch and video combiner box that allows Filmlight to present it as a single system image in the suite (which runs on a ninth commodity PC)? And that they also combine the storage across the 8 servers as a single volume with ridiculous throughput? Which means that as pc hardware develops their systems get faster for free, at least on Filmlight's behalf.

Filmlight have been really clever using supercomputing methodology and techniques to create a system that scales with commodity hardware development. The only point they were lagging IMHO was GPU processing but they do that now as well. None of which takes away from the fact that they already have the mac app that I think they give you if you buy a system.

Not affiliated with Filmlight but we do own a Baselight.

Doug Shannon
Senior Systems Engineer
National Film And TV School
UK
_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3


      

From cnoellert at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 19:20:27 2010
From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:20:27 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031116440.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <83C89EE6-4D4E-4646-9F96-CC2A5B2A5C6D@cinelab.com><F69463E5-FACA-4D6A-893B-E140F75C9E57@prestodigital.ca>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003021745150.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B00033B073@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031116440.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <E59B5191-075E-4DA3-B3FC-5B6D5413DE81@gmail.com>

Most likely you're still incorrect Bob. The overall system bandwidth  
essentially amounted to being 8 times greater.  The storage system is  
8 distinct raids storing only a segment of the frame reducing the  
overhead significantly.

I don't know of any modern color corrector other than the 8 that can  
grade two streams of 4k dissolving into each other in realtime while  
recording the result to disk.  Again, all in realtime.  This was  
possible three years ago.

Another example.  Quite often while a colorist was grading on an 8, I  
could begin a video-based conform of an hdcamsr show using the same  
8's video-io subsystem in the background remotely from my mac.  For  
sure there are no platforms today that can perform this task without  
seperate front end machines and a San.

Today with 8 distict gpus the gap is obviously further widened... But  
we're talking 3 years ago.

Disclaimer: I used to work for FilmLight.  Doesn't change the fact  
that they make the best kit though.

Best,
Chris


Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 3, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us 
 > wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> ====
>
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote:
>
>> Bob, you realise that a Baselight 8 at present is eight eight-core  
>> (? Could be 16 cores now) commodity servers in a rack with a  
>> network switch and video combiner box that allows Filmlight to  
>> present it as a single system image in the suite (which runs on a  
>> ninth commodity PC)? And that they also combine the storage across  
>> the 8 servers as a single volume with ridiculous throughput? Which  
>> means that as pc hardware develops their systems get faster for  
>> free, at least on Filmlight's behalf.
>
> Yes, I gather that the "Baselight 8" one buys today is not the  
> "Baselight 8" sold three years ago.  I do admire the design.
>
> I think that my point was that latest hardware could provide the  
> level of satisfaction provided by the original "Baselight 8" without  
> needing to be quite as massively parallel when it comes to coupled  
> server systems.  The I/O issue is more difficult to solve.
>
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3


From craig at optimus.com  Wed Mar  3 19:10:48 2010
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:10:48 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <567705DC-6AF8-491D-9F23-189464634B9D@cinelab.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<567705DC-6AF8-491D-9F23-189464634B9D@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>

As a Baselight 8 user, this whole discussion is beginning to frost my tits.

However, I'm going to keep it short. I'm surprised that Scratch has not 
been mentioned here, as a base system can do a lot of what Bob is asking 
for, and doesn't cost that much more than $20K.  There are a few more 
systems out there sub-20K if one looks hard. It's just that they don't 
do what even Color can do. It's amazing to me what people want and/or 
expect at this price range. We have a Scratch and FCP Color as actual 
working stations, and yet, we don't do any real jobs on Scratch. We do 
some "real" jobs on Color, but not that many. Mostly web stuff. We also 
have a Davinci 2k, and we use that far more often than either of the 
other 2. Our need for a BL8 stems from our workflow, and the amount of 
it. We keep a BL8 humming at 100% capacity, and the assist station we 
have with it is right around 90%. There is NO way I could do my work on 
any system that doesn't have massive throughput. In my mind, that means 
a choice of 3 color correctors; Baselight, Davinci, or Digital Vision 
Film Master. That's it. I realize I should consider a Pablo and a Lustre 
in the same category, but I don't.

What kind of workflow do you have Bob? Are you working in supervised 
client sessions, with people paying by the hour?

Curious.


Craig Leffel
Senior Colorist
Optimus / Chicago



Robert Houllahan wrote:

>> >>>Maybe Filmlight should open source portable Baselight under the GPL license so that it can become "community" supported and go viral?>>>>>
<<<<<<<<<Snipped >>>>>>>>>
....
>> So.... I do not see this trend really getting better but if there were a product at the 20K level that worked and supported all the pro formats you would want to grade and was a vehicle to get the individual colorist or small company colorist to gain traction as a valuable asset whose work could feed into seats of a more capable version of their system at bigger houses it might be a counter to the apple,etc. be all swissarmy knife does everything to 80% good mentality. 
>>     


From bobfesta at mac.com  Wed Mar  3 19:26:25 2010
From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:26:25 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Euphonix MC Color
In-Reply-To: <225030.43683.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <225030.43683.qm@web54605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D62FCD4D-87F8-4F7A-8CD2-17CDF3D07553@mac.com>

All of this talk about hardware is making me dizzy.

I think what is really important to note here that the intrinsic value of any system is not just in hardware speed/throughput, but more importantly in software value. 

I know Apple color has some lovely applets that threaten to do many basic tasks well, but what really drives artists is the sophistication of the toolsets in top line systems. Honestly, what can we look forward to from Apple? Maybe a bug fix and a small version update. In that time period, I guarantee you that a big iron company would have gone directly to its users and implemented feature after feature in incremental versions. Is Apple listening to my feedback? Absolutely not. 

Are the big iron companies listening? Yes, they are here every month with coders and executives who want to know how we are using their product, and what features I'd like to see. That is a value added that I pass on to my clients, and with a little prodding, hopefully, they recognize the depth of the tools we are using, and spread the word throughout the community that great things are happening with new sophisticated work surfaces and software. In addition to the fast efficient session, they noticed that great things were happening to their images, using new methodologies.

In a nutshell,  sell the sizzle, and not the steak.

I use Filmlight products.

Best,

Bob

Send 1819 Colorado Avenue, Santa Monica, CA 90404
Call 310.401.2220 Fax 310.401.2224 Visit NewHat.TV
Write bob at NewHat.TV	
									
 									

On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:55 AM, wbpags wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> ====
> 
> 
> 
> -      The Baselight I've been working on has GPUs with 9 TBs of storage and I'm probably on the low end compared to the larger post houses.  Been working with the GPUs for almost a year now.  I'm like a junkie though b/c I'm jonsing for more!  "Faster...play faster"
> 
>   No affiliation with Filmlight other than a user.
>    
> 
> ====
> 
>>> Note that the Baselight 4 & 8 hardware was cutting edge when it was designed but if one starts over with this-year's hardware (and I am not talking about stagnant Apple hardware) it can be done with much smaller and faster computers since CPUs will be available with 8 cores this year.  So a reasonably small two socket system would have at least the crunching capacity of at least a "Baselight 16".  storage I/O is the main challenge.
> 
> Bob, you realise that a Baselight 8 at present is eight eight-core (? Could be 16 cores now) commodity servers in a rack with a network switch and video combiner box that allows Filmlight to present it as a single system image in the suite (which runs on a ninth commodity PC)? And that they also combine the storage across the 8 servers as a single volume with ridiculous throughput? Which means that as pc hardware develops their systems get faster for free, at least on Filmlight's behalf.
> 
> Filmlight have been really clever using supercomputing methodology and techniques to create a system that scales with commodity hardware development. The only point they were lagging IMHO was GPU processing but they do that now as well. None of which takes away from the fact that they already have the mac app that I think they give you if you buy a system.
> 
> Not affiliated with Filmlight but we do own a Baselight.
> 
> Doug Shannon
> Senior Systems Engineer
> National Film And TV School
> UK
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3


From weagles at bigpond.net.au  Wed Mar  3 19:48:10 2010
From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (warren eagles)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 05:48:10 +1000
Subject: [Tig]  Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>

So how to squash a $200K Resolve or Baselight into a $25K model?
Features would be cut and obviously the realtime playback with  
corrections, what would be acceptable
to current users?
As a Resolve user I could live without the tracker and maybe have the  
nodes limited to 5?
Not sure what else you could lose?

Warren




From rob at cinelab.com  Wed Mar  3 20:09:11 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:09:11 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<567705DC-6AF8-491D-9F23-189464634B9D@cinelab.com>
	<4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>
Message-ID: <7AA32949-98B6-41F4-87F8-2EF852466D5C@cinelab.com>

> 
> As a Baselight 8 user, this whole discussion is beginning to frost my tits.

Any reason why I don't thin I am suggesting that DaVinci or Filmlight give away top tier machines.
> 
> However, I'm going to keep it short. I'm surprised that Scratch has not been mentioned here, as a base system can do a lot of what Bob is asking for, and doesn't cost that much more than $20K.  There is NO way I could do my work on any system that doesn't have massive throughput. In my mind, that means a choice of 3 color correctors; Baselight, Davinci, or Digital Vision Film Master. That's it. I realize I should consider a Pablo and a Lustre in the same category, but I don't.

I have looked at Scratch it is a possibility for us as is Speed grade and I have a fully setup Color system I am just postulating about the future.
> 
> What kind of workflow do you have Bob? Are you working in supervised client sessions, with people paying by the hour?

So I am Rob not Bob in case you are confused and I run a Lab we process and transfer Film so yes sometimes we have sit in clients but mostly a variety of dailies and other projects where I don't have people sit in. 

-Rob-


Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com





From jt at traktionfilms.com  Wed Mar  3 20:19:15 2010
From: jt at traktionfilms.com (John Tissavary)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:19:15 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<567705DC-6AF8-491D-9F23-189464634B9D@cinelab.com>
	<4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>
Message-ID: <3cfa3fa11003031219m648698cbn934bcac0975a72e3@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, as Craig mentioned, Scratch is a barely over 20K (pounds) option, and
very much underestimated by a lot of people I've encountered.

I use Scratch daily, grading feature films and the occasional commercial, tv
show, music video.  I'm also an occasional Baselight user for uncompressed
4k, but Scratch is my daily workhorse.

Disclaimer - I don't work for Assimilate, but I own & use their product
daily.

regards,

john tissavary | colorist | hi ground

From jt at traktionfilms.com  Wed Mar  3 20:25:47 2010
From: jt at traktionfilms.com (John Tissavary)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:25:47 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>
References: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
	<07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <3cfa3fa11003031225j6dfba928g9f90089b0711a71f@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know why realtime playback has to be cut.  Scratch does it right
now, with as many layers as you can throw at it in 2k, 4k, etc... plus
tracking, keying, vectors, amazingly capable conform tools, etc...

It's not technically $25k, but not far off.  Agreed there'd be features cut,
but that's a marketing decision over anything else.


-- 
john tissavary | colorist | hi ground



On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 2:48 PM, warren eagles <weagles at bigpond.net.au>wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> ====
>
> So how to squash a $200K Resolve or Baselight into a $25K model?
> Features would be cut and obviously the realtime playback with corrections,
> what would be acceptable
> to current users?
> As a Resolve user I could live without the tracker and maybe have the nodes
> limited to 5?
> Not sure what else you could lose?
>
> Warren
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3

From rob at cinelab.com  Wed Mar  3 20:32:37 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:32:37 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>
References: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
	<07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <D7460CEC-F930-4441-97D0-E11F3D867E3B@cinelab.com>

> So how to squash a $200K Resolve or Baselight into a $25K model?

One CPU box One GPU 3rd party panels no 'nodes' or extra boxes, etc. software only pay for support separate etc.

 I think BL-1 is around $80k without the Blackboard but with 9-12tb and CPU/GPU etc. I am not sure about entry level pricing on a Resolve but I would think these companies could come up with 'incentives' to move up to bigger hardware for throughput like Craig's BL8.

I don't think this has to be a threat to 'Big Iron' and it could even be a way to drive some business towards those shops with the full systems.

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From bob at bluescreen.com  Wed Mar  3 20:48:55 2010
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 12:48:55 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<567705DC-6AF8-491D-9F23-189464634B9D@cinelab.com>
	<4B8EB438.7040508@optimus.com>
Message-ID: <jnhto5hdenntvtneogvt0uc5dd0jn9ro0r@4ax.com>

>There are a few more systems out there sub-20K if one looks hard. It's just that they don't 
>do what even Color can do. It's amazing to me what people want and/or expect at this price range.

Ah, well, that's because the cost of the cameras used to produce the stuff for
post keeps dropping, and cameras keep getting faster so less light and smaller
crews, and as people get used to less quality for less money (XDCAM is a HUGE
hit at 8 bits, 4:2:0, long GOP 50 Mgb data rate), they expect post to be
commensurately cheap.

When you can buy a Canon 5D with lenses and all the accessories you can eat
for less than $10K U.S., and go out and shoot a national HD spot with it, the
idea of paying $200-$500 an hour for post correction just doesn't sit well.

The other trend is that the less expensive the camera and thus the production,
the more likely it is that some member of the crew or production team will
grade and edit the footage themselves. Very few shooting on an F35 or D21 or
35mm would consider doing their own post, but tons of Red and Canon 5D and
HDV/SxS/P2 shooters have a Mac Tower with Color and FCP, which apparently
makes them both colorists and editors.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Wed Mar  3 21:02:47 2010
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 21:02:47 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>
	<EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <FD557A14-785A-47BF-BE37-75A56AF0C9CE@autotv.co.uk>


On 3 Mar 2010, at 17:03, Joe Owens wrote:

> 
> Seriously, though, referring to Final Cut as "pro" stretches incredulity...


Oh come on, I know elitism is fun, but that's such a tired attitude. Most of the jobs I work on now have been through FCP at some point. Not only is it resoundingly 'pro', it's fast becoming the backbone of the industry.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--




From qrichardson at quinessa.com  Wed Mar  3 22:37:23 2010
From: qrichardson at quinessa.com (quinn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:37:23 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <FD557A14-785A-47BF-BE37-75A56AF0C9CE@autotv.co.uk>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>
	<EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>
	<FD557A14-785A-47BF-BE37-75A56AF0C9CE@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BE67CE17-A292-4840-B14E-0A456A42D438@quinessa.com>

I don't think it's elitism...
FCP does a lot... but very little of it well
It has completely ingratiated it way in on price and ease of use...  
but with that ease of use comes great responsibility.
Unfortunately because of the price point anybody can do it... and thus  
you run into many, many issues in trying to get a project done with it.
The people using it do not always have the history or knowledge of how  
the online/telecine/finishing process works and hence you will end up  
with all your reels named 001 or worse.
I apologize if this is a bit rushed... but my client just moved up my  
deadline by 6hrs from what I was anticipatiing



On Mar 3, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> ====
>
>
> On 3 Mar 2010, at 17:03, Joe Owens wrote:
>
>>
>> Seriously, though, referring to Final Cut as "pro" stretches  
>> incredulity...
>
>
> Oh come on, I know elitism is fun, but that's such a tired attitude.  
> Most of the jobs I work on now have been through FCP at some point.  
> Not only is it resoundingly 'pro', it's fast becoming the backbone  
> of the industry.
>
> --
> Adrian Thomas
> AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
> 35 BEDFORDBURY
> LONDON WC2N 4DU
> www.autotv.co.uk
> +44 (0) 20 7240 2073
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From cnoellert at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 22:47:56 2010
From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 14:47:56 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <BE67CE17-A292-4840-B14E-0A456A42D438@quinessa.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>
	<EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>
	<FD557A14-785A-47BF-BE37-75A56AF0C9CE@autotv.co.uk>
	<BE67CE17-A292-4840-B14E-0A456A42D438@quinessa.com>
Message-ID: <09077AEE-9B3C-40DE-A799-19FAEF439838@gmail.com>

What you're talking about is the editor or operator.  Not the software.  

All 6 of the Superbowl spots we did here this past year were cut on FCP.  There were no problems.

Best,
Chris

--
PublicVFX
Chris Noellert : VFX Artist
69 Market Street, Venice, CA, 90291
310.450.6969 o
310.450.6999 f
310.699.2151 c
chris at publicvfx.com
aim: cnoellert at gmail.com
http://www.publicvfx.com


From qrichardson at quinessa.com  Wed Mar  3 22:50:49 2010
From: qrichardson at quinessa.com (quinn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:50:49 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <09077AEE-9B3C-40DE-A799-19FAEF439838@gmail.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<SNT123-W219916AC23F1B9D6153AEDC33A0@phx.gbl>
	<EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>
	<FD557A14-785A-47BF-BE37-75A56AF0C9CE@autotv.co.uk>
	<BE67CE17-A292-4840-B14E-0A456A42D438@quinessa.com>
	<09077AEE-9B3C-40DE-A799-19FAEF439838@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D3C55DA-B2F4-47C7-9C1D-704EF792A9B9@quinessa.com>

Fair point Chris :)


On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:47 PM, Christopher Noellert wrote:

> What you're talking about is the editor or operator.  Not the  
> software.
>
> All 6 of the Superbowl spots we did here this past year were cut on  
> FCP.  There were no problems.

From ted at tedlangdell.com  Wed Mar  3 23:10:08 2010
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:10:08 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <012BD785-A3C1-4A3A-A74E-E3D853E1DDC0@tedlangdell.com>

IIRC Netscape (by then, owned by AOL and then AOL/TW) blew off the  
browser when it wasn't making any market share and didn't matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape for more details.

Ted

On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> Maybe Filmlight should open source portable Baselight under the GPL  
> license so that it can become "community" supported and go viral?  
> This decision may seem rash, but it would propel Baselight to almost  
> monopoly status while still allowing Filmlight to sell high-end  
> proprietary systems based on it.  Apple's Color market would  
> evaporate.
>
> It would be a step as big as Netscape open sourcing Mozilla (which  
> has brought us FireFox and Thunderbird).  Or Sun open sourcing  
> OpenOffice, VirtualBox, and Solaris.  Or GPLed Ghostscript.  Or  
> GPLed MySQL.
>
> Bob

Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us
Main: 	(530) 741-1212
Cell: 	(530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13
ted at flashscan8.us


The flashscanHD/flashtransfer "West to California Tour"
Raleigh/Chapel-Hill/Winston-Salem/Charlotte, NC, March 1-4
Get details at flashscan8.us














From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Wed Mar  3 23:23:45 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:23:45 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <194CE433-206F-42B9-A9FD-40E998C31FE3@bigpond.net.au>
References: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
	<07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>
	<1D3D5499-355B-415A-B250-2EB1A23D7672@prestodigital.ca>
	<194CE433-206F-42B9-A9FD-40E998C31FE3@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <B9E4CB41-5E8E-4D9C-B5AF-C60A74B71FFC@prestodigital.ca>

Nothing like revenue flow to wind up the subscribers....  ;-P
But theorizing that a low price point offering would drive business  
to the higher end is like thinking that if Moet started offering Dom  
for $15 a bottle that it would improve the Champagne.... I don't  
think so.


On 3-Mar-10, at 3:44 PM, Warren Eagles wrote:

> Been a bit of fun

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From patrick at bluegiraffe.tv  Wed Mar  3 23:40:13 2010
From: patrick at bluegiraffe.tv (Patrick Morgan)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:40:13 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
Message-ID: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>

Apologies if this is cock-eyed or ranty...it's late but I have watched 
this debate for a while now...

There is no commercial reason for Filmlight to make their software 
available cheaply, they, like other developers (except Apple)
put a lot of hard graft into tools, working with file formats, workflow, 
RAW file formats and all the fun that goes with it.

I have to agree with the FCP statements made here (that includes Color), 
Color, of all it's problems has helped pay my
mortgage on a few occasions. I also work on Film Master and DS, and have 
had some training from the fine guys at Filmlight,
but work is scarce. I can charge the same day rate on Color as on DS - I 
just have to roll with the punches...

No amount of, In my day..... and,  If you shot on film..... or, the way 
to do this properly....is going to change the fact
that people have to do more with less and they bought into FCP, or 
Premiere. Editors are in the same boat.

I spoke to a producer who was told in no uncertain terms that the fact 
that  the large satelite provider in the UK
will be launching a Stereoscopic channel, and all the drama that goes 
with post on that, they will not increase budgets for
Stereo work and it should be done at the same cost as current HD...FCP 
had some amazing plugins to do this (Cineform) and
to top it all, all of the functions on that work out of the box with a 
sub £1100 panel from Tangent...

On the grading side, are you going to charge more for Stereo?

Regards
-- 
Patrick Morgan
Colour & Finishing
www.bluegiraffe.tv
+44 7917674711


From weagles at bigpond.net.au  Wed Mar  3 19:48:10 2010
From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (warren eagles)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 05:48:10 +1000
Subject: [Tig]  Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.191.1267641983.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <07E532CE-1C29-44CF-A3A3-CAF5A70B26CA@bigpond.net.au>

So how to squash a $200K Resolve or Baselight into a $25K model?
Features would be cut and obviously the realtime playback with  
corrections, what would be acceptable
to current users?
As a Resolve user I could live without the tracker and maybe have the  
nodes limited to 5?
Not sure what else you could lose?

Warren




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed Mar  3 23:55:44 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 17:55:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <012BD785-A3C1-4A3A-A74E-E3D853E1DDC0@tedlangdell.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<012BD785-A3C1-4A3A-A74E-E3D853E1DDC0@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031730230.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Ted Langdell wrote:
>
> IIRC Netscape (by then, owned by AOL and then AOL/TW) blew off the browser 
> when it wasn't making any market share and didn't matter.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape for more details.

As a one-time happy user of NCSA Mosiac pre-1.0, I can say "been 
there, done that". :-)

Note that at one time the two most popular Internet sites ("home 
pages") were Netscape and Yahoo (Yahoo is currently the 4th most 
popular site according to http://www.alexa.com/topsites).  Also notice 
that Netscape open sourced Mozilla in January 1998 and were acquired 
by AOL in November 1998. AOL did not do anything useful with what it 
acquired.  Netscape's browser was under intense pressure from Internet 
Explorer, which was delivered on every Windows PC.  AOL squandered its 
investment instead of successfully competing with Yahoo.

Open source is responsible for the Internet as we know it today, and 
has earned many hundreds of billions of dollars, if not trillions.

A carefully-planned open source effort can be useful to commercial 
enterprise as long as it is done right.  You give away just enough 
free milk that people come for the cow.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From cnoellert at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 00:01:54 2010
From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:01:54 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
Message-ID: <E7D9C5BD-613C-435B-ADA5-2C6DCDB41CB0@gmail.com>



On Mar 3, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Patrick Morgan wrote:

> On the grading side, are you going to charge more for Stereo?


At least double...

Best,
Chris


From rob at colorist.org  Thu Mar  4 00:10:32 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:10:32 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <012BD785-A3C1-4A3A-A74E-E3D853E1DDC0@tedlangdell.com>
References: <97892A65-2E3F-43CB-A7D0-C423C31F6028@cinelab.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031032040.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<012BD785-A3C1-4A3A-A74E-E3D853E1DDC0@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <951D583C-FCC5-4189-8883-466305DB4950@colorist.org>


On Mar 3, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Ted Langdell wrote:

> IIRC Netscape (by then, owned by AOL and then AOL/TW) blew off the  
> browser when it wasn't making any market share and didn't matter.

And, before Netscape we used Mosaic.  Before Mosaic, we used Gopher.   
Before Gopher, we used Usenet (and still do).  I still use 2 text- 
based browsers, lynx and w3m.  They're extremely fast, sleek, and  
don't include any popups, flash, nor in fact any graphics at all!  The  
horror.  Oh, and I also use X Windows, which is extremely  
configurable, runs across multiple machines in a form of shared  
processing (call that cloud if you like) and was conceived about 40  
years ago, with networking built in (as well of course as  
multitasking, due to the underlying Unix).

In my day....   :0

--
Rob Lingelbach   TIG admin founder
rob at colorist.org



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Thu Mar  4 00:50:49 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:50:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Patrick Morgan wrote:
>
> There is no commercial reason for Filmlight to make their software available 
> cheaply, they, like other developers (except Apple)
> put a lot of hard graft into tools, working with file formats, workflow, RAW 
> file formats and all the fun that goes with it.

The commercial reason would be to increase/maintain market share. 
There is ample reason to believe that market share will gradually 
transition to less expensive systems (e.g. FCP) as those less 
expensive systems become more capable and build a large base of users. 
Without a foot in that lower-end market, the market goes to some other 
vendor and your business goes kaput.

Adobe is an example of a company who has made their software available 
cheaply in order to help prop up sales of their expensive professional 
versions.  Apple does the same.  Microsoft does the same.  Almost 
every long-term successful vendor does this.  The list of inflexible 
vendors who did very well for a number of years but failed to follow 
the market (and went "kaput") is long.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From mfw at musictrax.com  Thu Mar  4 04:11:00 2010
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 20:11:00 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <EBEC4A39-C872-458E-A16C-7670707C2DF3@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <C7B472D4.155AF%mfw@musictrax.com>

On 3/3/10 9:03 AM, "Joe Owens" <jpo at prestodigital.ca> wrote:

> Seriously, though, referring to Final Cut as "pro" stretches
> incredulity...


>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

Note that Apple reportedly just let go about 30-40 people from the Final Cut
Pro development staff up in Cupertino, leading to rumors that they might be
cutting back on future upgrades and releases.  But I believe Apple has
commented not to worry -- they'll be sticking with it.

I suspect there will be some major changes in color-correction tools and
pricing at NAB in April, much more than at past shows.  I'm particularly
interested to see what Blackmagic will be doing with daVinci Resolve.

--Marc Wielage
www.cinesound.tv
 (818) 486-7747





From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 05:34:49 2010
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 21:34:49 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>

You have to charge more for stereo. there are more deliverables, which
take longer, more labor, and take up more space.

Any real system these days has to have realtime rendered playback at least.
Any great system has  realtime un-rendered playback.

best,
Jeff Olm
Stereo Colorist
LA, CA


From aranysh at mac.com  Thu Mar  4 06:03:32 2010
From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:03:32 +0600
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0CA31D3-5622-4658-BFCA-2311E92A86C5@mac.com>

Color is not free. Final Cut isn't free either. An FCP suit you can regularly bring paying clients in is about $50k. If you want to make broadcast masters there too it's well above $100k. Editing and grading jobs lost to a producer's nephew aren't lost. They are jobs that wouldn't happen anyway.

Michael Aranyshev
Editor


From jfmann at optimum.net  Thu Mar  4 21:04:55 2010
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 16:04:55 -0500
Subject: [Tig] New York SMPTE Meeting
In-Reply-To: <C0CA31D3-5622-4658-BFCA-2311E92A86C5@mac.com>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
	<C0CA31D3-5622-4658-BFCA-2311E92A86C5@mac.com>
Message-ID: <003801cabbde$591395b0$0b3ac110$@net>

Hi All,

I have up dated the TIG calendar: for March 17th. For those who do not wish conduct green BRRE experiments. 

http://www.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

For the SMPTE trip to the Ascent Media Group in Ct.  

Regards,
Jim


Jim Mann
Freelance Colorist
http://colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann
Skype: jim.mann444
C.516-250-0909
colorist444 at hotmail.com






From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Thu Mar  4 16:12:28 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:12:28 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <C7B472D4.155AF%mfw@musictrax.com>
References: <C7B472D4.155AF%mfw@musictrax.com>
Message-ID: <D592E18B-8CA4-44D9-A617-EC66939046E1@prestodigital.ca>

The fallout chatter that has made it through to me is that one  
"COLOR" engineer and a COLOR QA person were let go, but the larger  
percentage of all the rest were contractors.  This is apparently a  
routine cycle in the normal development path that Apple uses in  
developing updates, revisions, etc.  So no real worries or sirens  
going off, is the 'spin'.

As far as sneering at the "Pro" part of FCP goes, my main beef is  
that the core media handling (not the interface or its functionality)  
is very deficient.
The app is not field/frame aware, it blurs things that should be more  
precisely dealt with.  It cannot cope with 2/3 cadence.  As far as  
those calculations are concerned, the daVinci TLC is light years  
ahead, even if it was originally based on Z80 microprocessors.  Don't  
get me started on the Edit-to-Tape module, which is the absolute  
worst interface of its kind that I have ever had the misfortune to be  
forced to use.

On 3-Mar-10, at 9:11 PM, Marc Wielage wrote:

> Note that Apple reportedly just let go about 30-40 people from the  
> Final Cut
> Pro development staff up in Cupertino, leading to rumors that they  
> might be
> cutting back on future upgrades and releases.  But I believe Apple has
> commented not to worry -- they'll be sticking with it.

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From carl at stopp.se  Thu Mar  4 22:24:37 2010
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 23:24:37 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Charging more for 3D
In-Reply-To: <mailman.209.1267739125.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.209.1267739125.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <6C4C700D-E927-4B05-B83A-4637F4CB6790@stopp.se>

>> On the grading side, are you going to charge more for Stereo?
>
>
> At least double..


We will probably not charge more by the hour. But it will take longer  
so we should be able to charge for more hours.

Or are people actually charging more by the hour for 3D now? If so,  
how much more?

/Carl



From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu  Thu Mar  4 22:22:24 2010
From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:22:24 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Tig Digest, Vol 168, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.209.1267739125.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.209.1267739125.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <5e60fe28112662.4b8fec50@mail.nyu.edu>

I have to partially disagree with the following comment. You can build perfectly suitable suites based on FCP sans tape machines for less than stated.  Everyone working in the field was someone's nephew or niece at one time...


"Color is not free. Final Cut isn't free either. An FCP suit you can regularly bring paying clients in is about $50k. If you want to make broadcast masters there too it's well above $100k. Editing and grading jobs lost to a producer's nephew aren't lost. They are jobs that wouldn't happen anyway."


---Larry 


From rob at cinelab.com  Thu Mar  4 16:18:53 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:18:53 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4BC7FF4-8EAC-433C-A715-FB4CA989F2B9@cinelab.com>

I would say that Stereo vision needs two charges:

1. Specialized Monitoring.

2. Buzzing the Colorist i.e. all that time wearing Stereo Glasses till you puke.

I think Stereo will take it's place but will not be universal It has always been a Niche and always will be IMO....

-Rob- 


Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Mar  5 01:58:41 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:58:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <D4BC7FF4-8EAC-433C-A715-FB4CA989F2B9@cinelab.com>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
	<D4BC7FF4-8EAC-433C-A715-FB4CA989F2B9@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003041955200.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Robert Houllahan wrote:
>
> 2. Buzzing the Colorist i.e. all that time wearing Stereo Glasses till you puke.

Is the Colorist going to be able to survive the standard 14 hour day 
wearing these stereo glasses?  Might there be severe psychological (or 
even physical) impairment caused by long-term exposure to these 
conditions?  After wearing stereo glasses all day, is it even safe to 
drive home?

If there is risk of injury, it seems that the Colorist should be paid 
more.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From carl at stopp.se  Fri Mar  5 07:33:24 2010
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:33:24 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Charging more for 3D
In-Reply-To: <8EB50486-54F7-478D-B753-5781D1BB6842@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.209.1267739125.2822.tig@colorist.org>
	<6C4C700D-E927-4B05-B83A-4637F4CB6790@stopp.se>,
	<8EB50486-54F7-478D-B753-5781D1BB6842@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725FA51BD56CF@exchange.stopp.se>

and then double price for deliverbles... it is two streems :)



Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22
________________________________________
From: Christopher Noellert [cnoellert at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 04:44
To: Carl Skaff
Cc: tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] Charging more for 3D

Well... I personally think charging full price for left eye and discounting right eye by 50% might be the way to go... just to get 'em in the door =)

Best,
Chris

--
PublicVFX
Chris Noellert : VFX Artist
69 Market Street, Venice, CA, 90291
310.450.6969 o
310.450.6999 f
310.699.2151 c
chris at publicvfx.com
aim: cnoellert at gmail.com
http://www.publicvfx.com








On Mar 4, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Carl Skaff wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>>> On the grading side, are you going to charge more for Stereo?
>>
>>
>> At least double..
>
>
> We will probably not charge more by the hour. But it will take longer
> so we should be able to charge for more hours.
>
> Or are people actually charging more by the hour for 3D now? If so,
> how much more?
>
> /Carl
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3




From cnoellert at gmail.com  Fri Mar  5 03:44:27 2010
From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:44:27 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Charging more for 3D
In-Reply-To: <6C4C700D-E927-4B05-B83A-4637F4CB6790@stopp.se>
References: <mailman.209.1267739125.2822.tig@colorist.org>
	<6C4C700D-E927-4B05-B83A-4637F4CB6790@stopp.se>
Message-ID: <8EB50486-54F7-478D-B753-5781D1BB6842@gmail.com>

Well... I personally think charging full price for left eye and discounting right eye by 50% might be the way to go... just to get 'em in the door =)

Best,
Chris

--
PublicVFX
Chris Noellert : VFX Artist
69 Market Street, Venice, CA, 90291
310.450.6969 o
310.450.6999 f
310.699.2151 c
chris at publicvfx.com
aim: cnoellert at gmail.com
http://www.publicvfx.com








On Mar 4, 2010, at 2:24 PM, Carl Skaff wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
> 
>>> On the grading side, are you going to charge more for Stereo?
>> 
>> 
>> At least double..
> 
> 
> We will probably not charge more by the hour. But it will take longer  
> so we should be able to charge for more hours.
> 
> Or are people actually charging more by the hour for 3D now? If so,  
> how much more?
> 
> /Carl
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From sean at screentimeimages.com  Fri Mar  5 03:15:40 2010
From: sean at screentimeimages.com (sean at screentimeimages.com)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 22:15:40 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <D4BC7FF4-8EAC-433C-A715-FB4CA989F2B9@cinelab.com>
References: <4B8EF35D.8040300@bluegiraffe.tv>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003031840030.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<43298eae1003032134o1a4bbd4ex605a63a1a500755f@mail.gmail.com>
	<D4BC7FF4-8EAC-433C-A715-FB4CA989F2B9@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <20100304221540.dd1vdn1msks88sc4@cpanel001.corecommhosting.com>

Glasses-free 3D will ultimately be where the industry goes. We've  
already got a glasses-free screen here, and even though it's tech that  
is what's after what's next, it's already nearly as good as the 103"  
3D Panasonic Plasma, which I just saw today at their offices in L.A.

Glasses free already has a place in advertising, point of purchase  
displays, airports, slot machines, etc. It still has a bit to go  
before it's good enough for film viewing at home, but it's coming.  
I've been involved with glasses free for about 3 years, and the tech  
is about 10 years in development.

Sean McKee
Director
Restoration & New Technology
IVC / Point.360
2777 Ontario Street
Burbank, CA 91504
818-569-4949 office
847-534-0099 cell

Quoting Robert Houllahan <rob at cinelab.com>:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
>
> I would say that Stereo vision needs two charges:
>
> 1. Specialized Monitoring.
>
> 2. Buzzing the Colorist i.e. all that time wearing Stereo Glasses   
> till you puke.
>
> I think Stereo will take it's place but will not be universal It has  
>  always been a Niche and always will be IMO....
>
> -Rob-
>
>
> Robert Houllahan
> rob at cinelab.com
> Colorist-Director
> www.cinelab.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3





From hombresur at gmail.com  Fri Mar  5 22:36:34 2010
From: hombresur at gmail.com (Jim Lindelien)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 16:36:34 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
Message-ID: <4af3dc921003051436k77762b0ap1e253d92256a315d@mail.gmail.com>

Joe Owens wrote:

---
As far as sneering at the "Pro" part of FCP goes, my main beef is that the
core media handling (not the interface or its functionality) is very
deficient.
The app is not field/frame aware, it blurs things that should be more
precisely dealt with.  It cannot cope with 2/3 cadence.  As far as those
calculations are concerned, the daVinci TLC is light years ahead, even if it
was originally based on Z80 microprocessors.
---

I appreciate the kind remark about the TLC.  Yup, 4MHz Z-80's with 32 KB of
memory had no trouble handling 3:2 pulldown in realtime.  It's a shock to me
that after more than 25 years since I wrote that code, this issue remains a
concern in newer products.  Too many computer people who don't bother to
understand film or video before working on their products I guess.

Jim Lindelien

From ramona at spectsoft.com  Fri Mar  5 23:12:46 2010
From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:12:46 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <4af3dc921003051436k77762b0ap1e253d92256a315d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4af3dc921003051436k77762b0ap1e253d92256a315d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003051512.46227.ramona@spectsoft.com>

On Friday 05 March 2010 2:36:34 pm Jim Lindelien wrote:
> Too many computer people who don't
> bother to understand film or video before working on their products I
> guess.

I love Jims comment. It says it all.....FYI, we worked for a very long time to 
get all this right in Rave, many days and nights sitting in that workflow. We 
are very proud of this work, it wasn't easy (well some of it was).

Cheers,
Ramona

-- 
Ramona Howard
Co-founder of SpectSoft, makers of the Rave product line.

Oakdale, Ca 95361
209 847-7812 ext 104
209 847-7859 fax
http://www.spectsoft.com

SpectSoft can be found on Facebook and Twitter.
Follow here for current up to the minute news.




From rob at colorist.org  Sat Mar  6 21:08:08 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 13:08:08 -0800
Subject: [Tig] The true color of Earth.
Message-ID: <251E4835-44F0-4F66-927C-D196CB71FE8B@colorist.org>

NASA has published a new series of images of what they call a true- 
color Earth, more accurate than any previous, and at much higher  
resolution.

The BBC's report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8547114.stm

Other links including an animation:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/4392965590

I did a cursory comparison for color with the images from Google Earth  
(v. 5.1.x); Lunar Software's Earth Browser (v. 3.2.1); and Xeric  
Design's EarthDesk (v. 5.2) on a 2008 15" MacBook Pro (LED  
backlighting).  The most noticeable difference is in the deeper blue,  
tending indigo, of the oceans in the new NASA views, which also show a  
more saturated aqua color at the shallower depths.  This aqua color  
seems outside the gamut of CRTs and challenges, IMHO, the notion of  
cyan.

Rob   TIG admin, colorist.
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From FMUSHEL at nyc.rr.com  Sun Mar  7 10:40:02 2010
From: FMUSHEL at nyc.rr.com (Fred Mushel)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 05:40:02 -0500
Subject: [Tig] The true color of Earth.
In-Reply-To: <251E4835-44F0-4F66-927C-D196CB71FE8B@colorist.org>
References: <251E4835-44F0-4F66-927C-D196CB71FE8B@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <1783A1C7-2155-4D4C-B6CC-D48856137F7D@nyc.rr.com>

No movie, TV show, using special effects has EVER gotten the colors of the Earth correct.

Just compare the special effect to the actual pictures taken from the Space Shuttle (or previous NASA human spacecraft) where a hand held film camera or video camera was used.
The blue is usually way off and the browns and greens are usually not present. Also, if one is on the "day" side of the Earth, a human, nor a camera can "see" stars. It's just black space, unlike as depicted in the movies, or TV shows.


On Mar 6, 2010, at 4:08 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
> 
> NASA has published a new series of images of what they call a true-color Earth, more accurate than any previous, and at much higher resolution.
> 
> The BBC's report:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8547114.stm
> 
> Other links including an animation:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/4392965590
> 
> I did a cursory comparison for color with the images from Google Earth (v. 5.1.x); Lunar Software's Earth Browser (v. 3.2.1); and Xeric Design's EarthDesk (v. 5.2) on a 2008 15" MacBook Pro (LED backlighting).  The most noticeable difference is in the deeper blue, tending indigo, of the oceans in the new NASA views, which also show a more saturated aqua color at the shallower depths.  This aqua color seems outside the gamut of CRTs and challenges, IMHO, the notion of cyan.
> 
> Rob   TIG admin, colorist.
> --
> Rob Lingelbach
> rob at colorist.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From damianavc at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 15:35:02 2010
From: damianavc at gmail.com (Damiana Vasconcellos Carvalho)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 12:35:02 -0300
Subject: [Tig] Color Correction in 3D
Message-ID: <19bc8391003080735w58b1e00dxa1f00dded914d69a@mail.gmail.com>

How the Color Correction in 3D works?
I read that Titanic will be released in 3D, it will be necessary to make a
review in the color correction?


James Cameron interview:
http://www.cinematical.com/2009/07/25/sdcc-titanic-going-3d-lord-of-the-rings-3d-on-hold/)

-- 
Damiana V. Carvalho
Colorist
Estúdios Mega
São Paulo - Brasil

From rob at colorist.org  Mon Mar  8 20:50:17 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 12:50:17 -0800
Subject: [Tig] NAB Focus Sheet 2010
Message-ID: <89EBD588-9BE7-4CBA-9685-B983D77A33DB@colorist.org>

The TIG NAB Focus Sheet for 2010 is available for vendor-manufacturer  
contributions at

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From cemoz101 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 21:25:54 2010
From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:25:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
Message-ID: <65617.30383.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone can help me find the DCI Reference DCP that contains test patterns for DCI. I called up Deluxe, who used to provide it before, but found out that they do not supply it anymore.

Any help would be much appreciated...

Cheers!

Cem 

Cem Ozkilicci
Colourist
Platige Image / Warsaw



      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/


From ted at tedlangdell.com  Mon Mar  8 23:12:38 2010
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 18:12:38 -0500
Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
In-Reply-To: <65617.30383.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <65617.30383.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <65043156-6D89-4958-A628-9767E774499E@tedlangdell.com>

Hi, Cem

On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:25 PM, Cem Ozkilicci wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone can help me find the DCI Reference DCP  
> that contains test patterns for DCI. I called up Deluxe, who used to  
> provide it before, but found out that they do not supply it anymore.
>
> Any help would be much appreciated...
>
> Cheers!
>
> Cem
>
> Cem Ozkilicci
> Colourist
> Platige Image / Warsaw


Try:

http://www.dcimovies.com/reference/

The page didn't load ("Server Not Responding" error message). Sent a  
message to the webmaster. Hope that helps you find the source.

Google cache page contains the following:

How To Order
Order fulfillment is being provided by Deluxe. Their customer service  
department will take orders for the "DCI Reference DCP" disc Monday  
through Friday (except U.S. holidays) from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.,  
Pacific Time. Orders will be shipped via the U.S. Postal Service.  
Please call one of the following phone numbers to place your order:

	• From the United States and Canada, call toll free +1 877 335 8936
	• Outside the United States and Canada, call +1 661 702 5098
In order to cover manufacturing costs, shipping and handling, the "DCI  
Reference DCP" disc is priced at US $18.00 each, payable by Visa or  
MasterCard.

Deluxe is only filling orders and will not provide technical support  
for use of the reference DCP and KDM. For technical matters, please  
send an email to  with the word "Reference" in the subject line.




Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us
Main: 	(530) 741-1212
Cell: 	(530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13
ted at flashscan8.us


The flashscanHD/flashtransfer "West to California Tour"
Columbia, SC/Athens, GA/Atlanta, GA/Nashville TN March 8-12
Get details at http://www.flashscan8.us















From rob at colorist.org  Tue Mar  9 00:59:16 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:59:16 -0800
Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
In-Reply-To: <65043156-6D89-4958-A628-9767E774499E@tedlangdell.com>
References: <65617.30383.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<65043156-6D89-4958-A628-9767E774499E@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <0BAA0D20-9961-4E31-8CAB-062C26C15128@colorist.org>


On Mar 8, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Ted Langdell wrote:

> 	• From the United States and Canada, call toll free +1 877 335 8936
> 	• Outside the United States and Canada, call +1 661 702 5098

Ted, it looks like Cem already checked with Deluxe only to find out  
they don't distribute it any longer.  It is surprising that Deluxe  
didn't indicate how to find it elsewhere.

Could it be the Digital Cinema Package is outdated?  The copyright,  
however, from the web reference at http://www.dcimovies.com/ 
reference/ , is 2009.


Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach  TIG admin
rob at colorist.org



From mfw at musictrax.com  Tue Mar  9 02:22:02 2010
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:22:02 -0800
Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
In-Reply-To: <65617.30383.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C7BAF0CA.156B7%mfw@musictrax.com>

On 3/8/10 1:25 PM, "Cem Ozkilicci" <cemoz101 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was 
> wondering if anyone can help me find the DCI Reference DCP that contains test
> patterns for DCI.
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

If DeLuxe doesn't make them any more, maybe this organization could get more
info for you:

Digital Cinema Society
http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/

The guy in charge is James Mathers, and you can reach him via email at
Mathers at DigitalCinemaSociety.org.  I bet he can put you in touch with
someone who has these test materials.

--Marc Wielage
www.cinesound.tv




From brazzalotto at optusnet.com.au  Tue Mar  9 12:42:06 2010
From: brazzalotto at optusnet.com.au (Simon Brazzalotto)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 23:42:06 +1100
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <D592E18B-8CA4-44D9-A617-EC66939046E1@prestodigital.ca>
References: <C7B472D4.155AF%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<D592E18B-8CA4-44D9-A617-EC66939046E1@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <A9EDC4A4-6A1F-4E19-8AAA-C938FECD603E@optusnet.com.au>

Here! Here!

I work for an Antipodean Broadcasting Corporation which, in it's  
infinite wisdom, replaced its many Avid and few Discreet systems with  
FCP.  Other questionable decisions (like using XSan & the DVCPro50  
codec) aside it has been a severe retrograde step in a broadcast  
situation.  As an editor there are several things I like about FCP  
when structure cutting a stand-alone project with local storage.   
That's as far as I would prefer to rely upon it.

The  Edit-to-Tape is definitely the worst thing I have ever  
encountered!  As a colorist I regularly receive programs on DigiBeta  
for grading (we have Australia's only daVinci Reslove and tape is the  
interface between the Quicktime and DPX worlds) and discover that the  
EDL which matches the timeline in FCP doesn't match what hit the tape.

As far as the app not being field/frame aware is concerned, I can add  
that it is also blissfully unaware of the vertical interval.  Version  
7 attempted to address this but I'd rather not dwell upon our  
abortive attempt to migrate from version 6 to the new set of  
undocumented design features that is marketed as version 7.  When I  
attended an FCP training session a couple of years ago, the trainer  
(who purported to be one of the top 8 FCP trainers in the world) was  
also blissfully unaware of the vertical interval and its importance  
in a broadcast environment.  I regularly have to re-version programs  
on tape that have closed captions on line 21.  Avid lets you do this  
if you know what you're doing.  Unfortunately, many editors don't  
know what they're doing when it comes to this less "creative" task so  
it is done in a linear tape environment.

Having been around long enough to still know how to fly it, I exited  
our remaining linear edit suite last week (half an hour before the  
end of the shift) having re-versioned two closers, added a closer to  
an otherwise complete program, replaced some audio in several  
previously completed programs and compiled two 25 minute programs  
from scratch.  The FCP world was being particularly unco-operative  
that day and all the other editors were pacing the corridors unable  
to complete  a single program.  Yes, the linear suite was expensive  
when it was installed, but it has worked reliably for well over a  
decade (some devices within it even longer) and has pumped out  
countless hours of television programs.  The investment has been well  
and truly amortised over time.  You certainly get what you pay for.

It is my great fear that our Resolve will eventually be replaced with  
another MacPro running Color because it will be the cheapest way to  
integrate grading into the "tapeless workflow".  I'd rather not be  
here to see it happen.  All job offers seriously considered.

Simon Brazzalotto
Online Editor and Colorist
Sydney AUSTRALIA
+61-414-658-922

On 05/03/2010, at 3:12 AM, Joe Owens wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
>
> The fallout chatter that has made it through to me is that one  
> "COLOR" engineer and a COLOR QA person were let go, but the larger  
> percentage of all the rest were contractors.  This is apparently a  
> routine cycle in the normal development path that Apple uses in  
> developing updates, revisions, etc.  So no real worries or sirens  
> going off, is the 'spin'.
>
> As far as sneering at the "Pro" part of FCP goes, my main beef is  
> that the core media handling (not the interface or its  
> functionality) is very deficient.
> The app is not field/frame aware, it blurs things that should be  
> more precisely dealt with.  It cannot cope with 2/3 cadence.  As  
> far as those calculations are concerned, the daVinci TLC is light  
> years ahead, even if it was originally based on Z80  
> microprocessors.  Don't get me started on the Edit-to-Tape module,  
> which is the absolute worst interface of its kind that I have ever  
> had the misfortune to be forced to use.
>
> On 3-Mar-10, at 9:11 PM, Marc Wielage wrote:
>
>> Note that Apple reportedly just let go about 30-40 people from the  
>> Final Cut
>> Pro development staff up in Cupertino, leading to rumors that they  
>> might be
>> cutting back on future upgrades and releases.  But I believe Apple  
>> has
>> commented not to worry -- they'll be sticking with it.
>
> Joe Owens
> Presto!Digital Colourgrade
> 302-9664 106 Avenue
> Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
> +1 780 421-9980
> jpo at prestodigital.ca
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
>



From cemoz101 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 11:08:52 2010
From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 03:08:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
In-Reply-To: <C7BAF0CA.156B7%mfw@musictrax.com>
References: <C7BAF0CA.156B7%mfw@musictrax.com>
Message-ID: <893864.69353.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ted, going to dcimovies.com and calling Deluxe was my initial attempt but as I mentioned before they don't supply it anymore. 

Marc, I've contacted James at Digital Cinema Society, I'll let you guys know if it pays off!

Cheers!

Cem.


Cem Ozkilicci
Colourist
Platige Image / Warsaw 



----- Original Message ----
From: Marc Wielage <mfw at musictrax.com>
To: Cem Ozkilicci <cemoz101 at yahoo.com>; TIG <tig at tig.colorist.org>
Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 3:22:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns

On 3/8/10 1:25 PM, "Cem Ozkilicci" <cemoz101 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was 
> wondering if anyone can help me find the DCI Reference DCP that contains test
> patterns for DCI.
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

If DeLuxe doesn't make them any more, maybe this organization could get more
info for you:

Digital Cinema Society
http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/

The guy in charge is James Mathers, and you can reach him via email at
Mathers at DigitalCinemaSociety.org.  I bet he can put you in touch with
someone who has these test materials.

--Marc Wielage
www.cinesound.tv


      __________________________________________________________________
Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/


From owen at ywwg.com  Tue Mar  9 15:23:53 2010
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 10:23:53 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Software Grading pricing and all
In-Reply-To: <A9EDC4A4-6A1F-4E19-8AAA-C938FECD603E@optusnet.com.au>
References: <C7B472D4.155AF%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<D592E18B-8CA4-44D9-A617-EC66939046E1@prestodigital.ca>
	<A9EDC4A4-6A1F-4E19-8AAA-C938FECD603E@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <1268148233.15838.139.camel@ywwg>

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 23:42 +1100, Simon Brazzalotto wrote:

> 
> The  Edit-to-Tape is definitely the worst thing I have ever  
> encountered!  

I did a couple shows where I finished the show in FCP (the client's
editing platform) and then tried exporting a 1:1 quicktime for output
with Avid.  Unfortunately I got hit with gamma-shift problems and had to
use a color correction in Avid to fix the image -- and even so it wasn't
perfect.  I'm going to try again with FCP 7; supposedly they've fixed
some of those issues.

owen

-- 
Online Editor / Colorist
Rockhopper Post Production
www.rockhopperpost.com



From pchapman at fotokem.com  Tue Mar  9 16:26:09 2010
From: pchapman at fotokem.com (Paul Chapman)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:26:09 -0800
Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
In-Reply-To: <65617.30383.qm@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C7BBB6A1.16916%pchapman@fotokem.com>

We have partial availability, contact me off list for more info.

--

Paul Chapman
FotoKem



> From: Cem Ozkilicci <cemoz101 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:25:54 -0800 (PST)
> To: Telecine Internet Group <tig at colorist.org>
> Subject: [Tig] DCI Reference DCP and Test Patterns
> 
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2030 subscribers in
> February 2010.
P+S Technik supports the TIG.
====

Hi everyone,

I was
> wondering if anyone can help me find the DCI Reference DCP that contains test
> patterns for DCI. I called up Deluxe, who used to provide it before, but found
> out that they do not supply it anymore.

Any help would be much
> appreciated...

Cheers!

Cem 

Cem Ozkilicci
Colourist
Platige Image /
> Warsaw



      
> __________________________________________________________________
Looking for
> the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
> 

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

_______________________________________________
> 
http://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3




From rickpags at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  9 23:28:28 2010
From: rickpags at yahoo.com (wbpags)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 15:28:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] 2k (not a Plus) questions
Message-ID: <418773.30054.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

 
  
      I'm working on an original 2k and since I haven't used one in a while my memory has lapsed as how to: 1. adjust the sensitivity of the tracker balls 
                           2. get the memory panel to store the images
 
  As far as #2 goes, I haven't had the chance to speak with the engineer yet regarding the ethernet set up etc., so this might have something to do with images stored. The buffer keys store the corrections just fine.  
 
  I miss my own memory storage banks but that's a topic for another day...
 
Thanks,
 Rick


      

From kevs at finalcolor.com  Wed Mar 10 08:51:07 2010
From: kevs at finalcolor.com (Kevin Shaw)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:51:07 +0000
Subject: [Tig] 2k (not a Plus) questions
In-Reply-To: <418773.30054.qm@web54606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C7BD0DFB.218F9%kevs@finalcolor.com>

Cant remember how or even if you can change trackball sensitivity, but
for Mem stills:
right mouse the GUI background and access the VSR Manager by selecting VSRs:
VSR/ Still Manager. This display has two pages. Setup Reference Store and
Grab/ Delete 
On the Grab/Delete page
Grab Memory VSRs creates a VSR for each scratchpad memory as it is saved.
Grab Memory Stills saves a full resolution image to the Gallery for each
scratchpad memory as it is saved.



On 09/03/2010 23:28, "wbpags" <rickpags at yahoo.com> wrote:

      I'm working on an original 2k and ... how to:
1. adjust the sensitivity of the tracker balls 2. get the memory panel to
store the images    

Kevin Shaw                kevs at finalcolor.com
colorist, instructor and consultant
www.finalcolor.com          www.icolorist.com

New class dates announced for Singapore, London and Los Angeles in May 2010!






From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Wed Mar 10 17:07:34 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:07:34 -0700
Subject: [Tig] 2k (not a Plus) questions
In-Reply-To: <C7BD0DFB.218F9%kevs@finalcolor.com>
References: <C7BD0DFB.218F9%kevs@finalcolor.com>
Message-ID: <E76CF943-2C56-4348-A5CB-075A56FEA2F5@prestodigital.ca>

 From about the 8:8:8 on, weren't the joyballs "dynamically  
sensitive" -- gross corrections if you moved the controls quickly and  
really fine adjustments if you moved them slowly...??


On 10-Mar-10, at 1:51 AM, Kevin Shaw wrote:

> Cant remember how or even if you can change trackball sensitivity, but

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From rob at colorist.org  Wed Mar 10 18:42:06 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:42:06 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Filename massaging in COLOR
Message-ID: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>

We are reading in DPX shot sequences into COLOR and rendering  
immediately to ProRes for proxy editing.  Is there a way to cause the  
output render files to be named similarly to the input files?   
Currently, in COLOR, we see it rendering to filenames of shot list  
order.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach    TIG admin, founder
rob at colorist.org



From jack at surrealroad.com  Wed Mar 10 18:49:05 2010
From: jack at surrealroad.com (Jack James)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:49:05 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Filename massaging in COLOR
In-Reply-To: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
References: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <e9fa7d401003101049k1b84f3ccwb4ed7bb5c5118f78@mail.gmail.com>

In case it doesn't there's a great app called name mangler:
http://www.manytricks.com/namemangler/ that I always use as a fallback.

Jack

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org> wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
>
> We are reading in DPX shot sequences into COLOR and rendering immediately
> to ProRes for proxy editing.  Is there a way to cause the output render
> files to be named similarly to the input files?  Currently, in COLOR, we see
> it rendering to filenames of shot list order.
>
> Rob
> --
> Rob Lingelbach    TIG admin, founder
> rob at colorist.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3




-- 
Sign up for the Synaesthesia beta: http://synaesthesia.surrealroad.com/beta

www.surrealroad.com

From rob at cinelab.com  Wed Mar 10 19:09:49 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:09:49 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Filename massaging in COLOR
In-Reply-To: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
References: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <F1DB54FB-86E6-4137-9772-FDA5F5924FEA@cinelab.com>

> We are reading in DPX shot sequences into COLOR and rendering immediately to ProRes for proxy editing.  Is there a way to cause the output render files to be named similarly to the input files?  Currently, in COLOR, we see it rendering to filenames of shot list order.

No they are just those dumb 1_g_1 blah files....



Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From patrick at bluegiraffe.tv  Wed Mar 10 19:34:56 2010
From: patrick at bluegiraffe.tv (Patrick Morgan)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:34:56 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Filename massaging in COLOR
In-Reply-To: <e9fa7d401003101049k1b84f3ccwb4ed7bb5c5118f78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
	<e9fa7d401003101049k1b84f3ccwb4ed7bb5c5118f78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B97F460.80705@bluegiraffe.tv>

Rob

I don't think there is another way TBH. Color creates a directory for 
each shot on the TL and then places the rendered grades inside
also seperating them by version number (grade 1 2 3 4) - youll have to 
do it manually.

This makes it relatively easy to reassemble a cut if anything goes 
wrong. One thing to note however is that Color number shots in an odd way..
ie if you have 2 tracks. 10 shots on track 1 and 5 on track 2 (total of 
15) - It will number the shots on track 1 from 1-10 and on track 2 from
11 - 15 - Regardless of the position of the shots on the timeline 
relative to each other, if that makes sense.

Regards

Patrick Morgan
www.bluegiraffe.tv

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
> ====
>
> In case it doesn't there's a great app called name mangler:
> http://www.manytricks.com/namemangler/ that I always use as a fallback.
>
> Jack
>
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Rob Lingelbach<rob at colorist.org>  wrote:
>
>    
>> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
>> 2030 subscribers in February 2010.
>> P+S Technik supports the TIG.
>> ====
>>
>> We are reading in DPX shot sequences into COLOR and rendering immediately
>> to ProRes for proxy editing.  Is there a way to cause the output render
>> files to be named similarly to the input files?  Currently, in COLOR, we see
>> it rendering to filenames of shot list order.
>>
>> Rob
>> --
>> Rob Lingelbach    TIG admin, founder
>> rob at colorist.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://reels.colorist.org
>> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
>>      
>
>
>
>    


From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Wed Mar 10 21:35:13 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:35:13 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Filename massaging in COLOR
In-Reply-To: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
References: <C97977D2-790D-4310-AD24-AFCF0B305D8A@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <6CFBE14B-0C77-40CA-AD9F-F6D90BA7FB27@prestodigital.ca>

Sort of...   To create a single folder of sequential dpx frames use  
the "Final Gather" function and  choose "copy" media to the resulting  
folder/entity.  You get a (big) directory of files of the form  
ProjectName00001.dpx.


>
> We are reading in DPX shot sequences into COLOR and rendering  
> immediately to ProRes for proxy editing.  Is there a way to cause  
> the output render files to be named similarly to the input files?   
> Currently, in COLOR, we see it rendering to filenames of shot list  
> order.
>

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From BobCampbell at astound.net  Thu Mar 11 18:17:58 2010
From: BobCampbell at astound.net (Bob Campbell)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:17:58 -0800
Subject: [Tig] COLOR Still store levels
Message-ID: <03D866EB-CD70-489B-AA92-FA20297F5AC6@astound.net>

I’m working on a project in COLOR with broadcast safe turned off. 
When using the still store to compare grades I only see stills with with levels clipped at 0 and 100 ire, even thought what I sent was much hotter.
Anyone know how to set still store play back to full levels.

Bob Campbell
Colorist




From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Thu Mar 11 18:42:56 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:42:56 -0700
Subject: [Tig] COLOR Still store levels
In-Reply-To: <03D866EB-CD70-489B-AA92-FA20297F5AC6@astound.net>
References: <03D866EB-CD70-489B-AA92-FA20297F5AC6@astound.net>
Message-ID: <E564DDEC-4D24-4EEF-9E54-5E45AEFDC1BF@prestodigital.ca>

The still store uses Quicktime system settings and I'm not aware of  
any controls that COLOR might offer to override this.
There may be a Quicktime "Final Cut" compatibility mode depending on  
your OS, but it is a real PITA.
It was far worse before they even started addressing the 1.8/2.2  
gamma situation, and then they mixed them up, but the last version  
seems to have straightened out the situation again.

On 11-Mar-10, at 11:17 AM, Bob Campbell wrote:

> COLOR with broadcast safe turned off.
> When using the still store to compare grades I only see stills with  
> with levels clipped at 0 and 100 ire, even thought what I sent was  
> much hotter.
> Anyone know how to set still store play back to full levels.

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From rob at colorist.org  Sun Mar 14 03:18:47 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:18:47 -0800
Subject: [Tig] New on the TIG wiki Classifieds; TIGNABFS10
Message-ID: <3E267362-1087-441C-A043-069A1F80D955@colorist.org>

* Spatial noise reduction and color enhancement source code for sale/ 
licensing.  Flexible licensing terms. Please visit http://colormancer.com/licensing/tig.html 
   *

..and see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/Classifieds  for other ads.


The TIG NAB Focus Sheet for 2010 is ready for manufacturer/vendor  
entries.  http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10

I was asked recently about the TIG NAB Focus Sheet, to explain its  
utility.

The TIGNABFS10 is sent out via the mailinglist as well as being on the  
wiki.  It and the TIGIBCFS10  (and for all years going back to the mid- 
nineties) are important features of the TIG, beyond the individual  
messages on the mailinglist.  The original and continuing idea of them  
is to provide in one place a reference of the most important  
developments for colorists and engineers to follow at the conventions.  
The twin annual Focus Sheets also inform those who are unable to  
attend the shows, what to look out for.

--the following is of possible historical interest on Focus Sheets.

For NAB 1997:
http://tig.colorist.org/pipermail/oldtig-mhonarc/1997/msg00576.html
  - Cintel:  URSA Diamond... C-Reality film scanning.. Klone with Iron.
  - ColorVision:  4:4:4:4 SILHOUETTE Digital Color Corrector...
     System Copernicus w/new GUI, VSR, Prime Windows
  - DaVinci: RESOLVE resolution independent color correction...
      EdWin user-definable windows.. 10 systems on show floor!
  - Innovation TK: latest TWiGi... SCANdal... Lens Barrel
  - Options: PIN + RTS/Steadi combo gate...
  - Pandora: Platinum NEON... MegaDEF technology demo
  - Sprocket Digital: CARNIVAL technology.. low noise PMT preamp for
     URSA & MkIII

For NAB 1996, the TIGNABFS included an impressive list of equipment  
from OPTIONS International.  See:
http://tig.colorist.org/pipermail/oldtig-mhonarc/1996/msg00353.html
...including a Telecine Uniform.

--
Rob Lingelbach  TIG admin
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Mon Mar 15 01:31:25 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:31:25 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Color Correction in 3D
In-Reply-To: <19bc8391003080735w58b1e00dxa1f00dded914d69a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <19bc8391003080735w58b1e00dxa1f00dded914d69a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6EAA719A-7EF5-42F1-A9D2-99C6BCCF1971@colorist.org>

Damiana asked the question below a few days ago to the group.  Could  
anyone help answer the question?  I would imagine there are some  
colorists here who are familiar with the particular process being used  
for Titanic.

I tried to find the Cameron interview she references but it brings up  
the main cinematical.com page.  (and who is cinematical, it isn't  
clear.)

Rob   TIG admin

On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Damiana Vasconcellos Carvalho wrote:

> How the Color Correction in 3D works?
> I read that Titanic will be released in 3D, it will be necessary to  
> make a
> review in the color correction?

> James Cameron interview:
> http://www.cinematical.com/2009/07/25/sdcc-titanic-going-3d-lord-of-the-rings-3d-on-hold/)
>
> -- 
> Damiana V. Carvalho
> Colorist
> Estúdios Mega
> São Paulo - Brasil




From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Mon Mar 15 05:24:41 2010
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:24:41 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Color Correction in 3D
In-Reply-To: <6EAA719A-7EF5-42F1-A9D2-99C6BCCF1971@colorist.org>
References: <19bc8391003080735w58b1e00dxa1f00dded914d69a@mail.gmail.com>
	<6EAA719A-7EF5-42F1-A9D2-99C6BCCF1971@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <43298eae1003142224i3e60d7b2p70de645313051bd8@mail.gmail.com>

Good evening,
Normally the mono deliverable is graded first. 14 ft Lamberts.
Then you copy those grades to the stereo images.
You grade the stereo to look it's best thru the filters that decrease
brightness, but make the 3D work.
It is best to grade with the color correction system feeding the 3D
projection configuration in your grading theater.

So if most of your screens are RealD grade in a RealD configured
theater with Z screen in place and Silver screen with the RealD
glasses on. at 3.5 to 4.5 ft Lamberts.
Depending on your directors or facilities brightness level of choice..

If you are in Europe and its Dolby or Nuvision that are dominate for
your release theaters then grade for that format.


Disclaimer.
Worked on the original Titanic FX at DD. Have nothing to do with
anything new with Titanic.
But I just wrapped as colorist for"How to Train Your Dragons" a stereo
animated feature out March 26.
I don't sell theater systems.
best,
Jeff Olm
Stereo Colorist
LA, CA

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org> wrote:
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
> ====
>
> Damiana asked the question below a few days ago to the group.  Could anyone
> help answer the question?  I would imagine there are some colorists here who
> are familiar with the particular process being used for Titanic.
>
> I tried to find the Cameron interview she references but it brings up the
> main cinematical.com page.  (and who is cinematical, it isn't clear.)
>
> Rob   TIG admin
>
> On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:35 AM, Damiana Vasconcellos Carvalho wrote:
>
>> How the Color Correction in 3D works?
>> I read that Titanic will be released in 3D, it will be necessary to make a
>> review in the color correction?
>
>> James Cameron interview:
>>
>> http://www.cinematical.com/2009/07/25/sdcc-titanic-going-3d-lord-of-the-rings-3d-on-hold/)
>>
>> --
>> Damiana V. Carvalho
>> Colorist
>> Estúdios Mega
>> São Paulo - Brasil
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3


From glennchan at gmail.com  Mon Mar 15 21:38:32 2010
From: glennchan at gmail.com (glenn chan)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:38:32 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize
Message-ID: <e4dd10a31003151438n6507da89o6f1710e74856f71b@mail.gmail.com>

>From my own tests doing that:

1- Extremely noticeable differences rarely occur.  So in practice, I don't
think it is a big deal.  Even if done incorrectly, the end result still
looks ok.

2- In some cases, I like the gamma ("incorrect") method better.  If you have
text or illustration, I prefer the incorrect method better as the text is
higher contrast (as the blacks are darker) and easier to make out.  To me,
it looks more natural when the source material is text/illustration.... even
though it's not necessarily realistic.

The article provides this link:  (the brighter version would be linear light
rescaling)
http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma_19.html

An analogy would be gunshots in movies... they sound "natural" even though
they aren't a realistic reproduction of what guns sound like.

Glenn Chan
Colormancer.com (I make color enhancement and noise reduction tools)
Toronto, Canada

From rob at colorist.org  Tue Mar 16 02:08:16 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:08:16 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Colorist Reels Sought
Message-ID: <D663D48A-2CF2-4A95-93C3-1CDE29CE97DC@colorist.org>

The TIG is in search of new colorist _Clips_ and _Reels_.  In the  
following list is found reels and clips many of which might be  
outdated.  Please consider updating them or providing completely new  
ones to me.  Your presence here is only as good as your reel and  
recent work.


The Clips can be featured immediately on the main page as follows  
(existing listed).

The following colorist reel clips are featured on the TIG wiki on the  
Main Page, in rotation:

Marcelo Aprile: Iaccoca
Warren Eagles
Adriano Mestroni
Micah Kirz: Cointreaupolitan
Bob Festa: Alfa
Bob Festa: Honda
Beau Leon: Land Rover

The following colorist reels are streaming on the TIG server and  
listed on the Main Page:

Warren Eagles
Beau Leon
Marcelo Aprile
Adirano Mestroni
Bob Festa
Janet Falcon
John Tissavary
Michael Thibodeau
Josh Petok
Biggi Klier
Benedek Kaban
Bob Lovejoy
Laurent Morel
Dan Mitre
Peter Berg
Tim Farrell
Owen Williams
Bruce Bolden
Rob Bessette

Rob --TIG admin and founder

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Tue Mar 16 02:32:32 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:32:32 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Training Courses for Colorists
Message-ID: <1DFE5DFE-3227-4B2A-B111-CAC3A294D241@colorist.org>

FilmLight, Autodesk, and FXPHD all offer training courses for  
colorists.  Please see

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Training_Options_for_Colorists

Rob  TIG admin, founder
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Tue Mar 16 03:01:13 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:01:13 -0700
Subject: [Tig] as Damiana was saying (2d to 3d)
Message-ID: <C9ADE440-061B-43C3-A786-CEFA03517DB2@colorist.org>

As Damiana Vasconcellos, our Colorista from São Paulo Estudios Mega  
was asking a few days ago:

"James Cameron, the Eminence Grise of all things grandiose, has held  
forth on the subject of 2d to 3d conversions at

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2010/03/is-jim-cameron-talking-out-of-both-sides-of-his-mouth-on-3d-conversions.html 
  "

Rob, TIG Admin, Colorist-Consultant
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From ted at tedlangdell.com  Tue Mar 16 16:26:40 2010
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:26:40 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Third Annual Quad/Editor/Telecine Lunch at NAB--Tues. Apr. 13,
	12:30pm-Location & Map
Message-ID: <DF24B180-3ED4-404C-859C-B90744668479@tedlangdell.com>

The Third Annual Quad/Editor/Telecine Lunch At NAB is just ahead:

Tuesday, April 13, 12:30pm to ??
Lower South Hall REAR food court & Cyber cafe.
Beyond Extron Electronics, SL111614.

Map: http://expo.nabshow.com/annual10/public/fp.aspx?EventID=1&MapID=18&ContactID=0

Take the central aisle all the way to the east (rear) end of Lower  
South, just past  the Extron booth.

Folks with experience or interest in Quad Videotape, Linear Editing  
and Telecine are encouraged to pull up a chair.

Please RSVP to ted at quadvideotapegroup.com so we have a clue as to how  
many seats to hold in the food court.

Looking forward to another interesting occasion.

If you're in Las Vegas on Sunday night, 3/11, several of us are  
planning to dine somewhere.  E-mail if you'd like to join us.

Ted

Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us
Cell: 	(530) 301-2931

Secretary for the  QuadVideotapeGroup.com:
Preserving Tape, Equipment and the Knowledge to use them, in  
conjunction with the Library of Congress
ted at quadvideotapegroup.com





From FMUSHEL at nyc.rr.com  Tue Mar 16 19:49:32 2010
From: FMUSHEL at nyc.rr.com (Fred Mushel)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 15:49:32 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
Message-ID: <5617AAC3-B9B2-446C-8D0F-B6198F111FA8@nyc.rr.com>

My question is:

What should the ft-L or cd/m2 be for ITU709 black test patch and white test patch be?

I know in the past (ITU601) CRT's were set at 30 ft-L, which is the Y value;  x=.313, y=.329
What is the ft-L value for 64d and 940d in the digital domain and the x,y values, if different from above stated values.

Thank you all.

Fred

From panisset at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 03:12:51 2010
From: panisset at gmail.com (Jean-Francois Panisset)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:12:51 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <5617AAC3-B9B2-446C-8D0F-B6198F111FA8@nyc.rr.com>
References: <5617AAC3-B9B2-446C-8D0F-B6198F111FA8@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com>

Something important to keep in mind with the Panasonic plasmas is not
to make your white patch larger than a certain portion of the screen:
past a certain size, some circuitry/software kicks in (presumably to
limit how much current is drawn?) and starts lowering the overall
brightness, which can really mess with your calibration. If you have
access to a compositing package as your video source, try creating a
white square on a black background and measure the brightness as you
gradually increase its size: it should remain steady until the patch
reachess a certain size, and it should then start to drop. Which of
course makes it interesting if you are grading a spot which ends on a
white title card.

This was valid as of the series 10 displays, haven't tried it since on
the series 11 or 12, but from a Panasonic presentation I attended
recently, I got the impression that this was still the case.

JF Panisset
MPC
Santa Monica, CA


On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Fred Mushel <FMUSHEL at nyc.rr.com> wrote:

> My question is:
>
> What should the ft-L or cd/m2 be for ITU709 black test patch and white test patch be?
>
> I know in the past (ITU601) CRT's were set at 30 ft-L, which is the Y value;  x=.313, y=.329


From dcorbitt77 at comcast.net  Wed Mar 17 16:20:23 2010
From: dcorbitt77 at comcast.net (dcorbitt77 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:20:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

Yes indeed, it is still the case. 

Dave Corbitt 
HBO Studios 
New York 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jean-Francois Panisset" <panisset at gmail.com> 
To: "Group Internet Telecine" <tig at colorist.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:12:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration 

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 
Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG. 
==== 

Something important to keep in mind with the Panasonic plasmas is not 
to make your white patch larger than a certain portion of the screen: 
past a certain size, some circuitry/software kicks in (presumably to 
limit how much current is drawn?) and starts lowering the overall 
brightness, which can really mess with your calibration. If you have 
access to a compositing package as your video source, try creating a 
white square on a black background and measure the brightness as you 
gradually increase its size: it should remain steady until the patch 
reachess a certain size, and it should then start to drop. Which of 
course makes it interesting if you are grading a spot which ends on a 
white title card. 

This was valid as of the series 10 displays, haven't tried it since on 
the series 11 or 12, but from a Panasonic presentation I attended 
recently, I got the impression that this was still the case. 

JF Panisset 
MPC 
Santa Monica, CA 


On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Fred Mushel <FMUSHEL at nyc.rr.com> wrote: 

> My question is: 
> 
> What should the ft-L or cd/m2 be for ITU709 black test patch and white test patch be? 
> 
> I know in the past (ITU601) CRT's were set at 30 ft-L, which is the Y value; x=.313, y=.329 

_______________________________________________ 
http://reels.colorist.org 
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 

From pmendelson at ascentmedia.com  Wed Mar 17 21:20:10 2010
From: pmendelson at ascentmedia.com (Phil Mendelson)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:20:10 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C7C6959A.176A4%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>

I don¹t think it¹s about current limiting, at least not directly.  I believe
it is a countermeasure to prevent the panel from cracking due to the heat
that would be generated.


On 3/17/10 9:20 AM, "dcorbitt77 at comcast.net" <dcorbitt77 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
> ====
> 
> Yes indeed, it is still the case.
> 
> Dave Corbitt
> HBO Studios
> New York
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jean-Francois Panisset" <panisset at gmail.com>
> To: "Group Internet Telecine" <tig at colorist.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 11:12:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
> 
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
> ====
> 
> Something important to keep in mind with the Panasonic plasmas is not
> to make your white patch larger than a certain portion of the screen:
> past a certain size, some circuitry/software kicks in (presumably to
> limit how much current is drawn?) and starts lowering the overall
> brightness, which can really mess with your calibration. If you have
> access to a compositing package as your video source, try creating a
> white square on a black background and measure the brightness as you
> gradually increase its size: it should remain steady until the patch
> reachess a certain size, and it should then start to drop. Which of
> course makes it interesting if you are grading a spot which ends on a
> white title card.
> 
> This was valid as of the series 10 displays, haven't tried it since on
> the series 11 or 12, but from a Panasonic presentation I attended
> recently, I got the impression that this was still the case.
> 
> JF Panisset
> MPC
> Santa Monica, CA
> 


From rob at colorist.org  Wed Mar 17 21:48:35 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:48:35 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Iridas Speedgrade users
Message-ID: <A6183C67-46BD-4381-9D7D-3E0C487B2175@colorist.org>

I would like to speak with any Iridas SpeedGrade DI users, please feel  
free to contact me either privately or on the group.

Rob   TIG admin/founder
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From BTopazio at company3.com  Wed Mar 17 22:54:15 2010
From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:54:15 -0400
Subject: [Tig] San Labs
Message-ID: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>

Anyone know if San Lab Systems has changed addresses, phones and web
site?  They seem to have disappeared.  Has Toronto been abducted?

 

 

 

Bill Topazio
Engineering
COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK

545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017
212-687-4000
212-907-1225 direct
917-881-0172 cell
212-907-1270 fax
www.company3.com <http://www.company3.com>  / www.methodstudios.com
<http://www.methodstudios.com>  


From jeffkreines at mindspring.com  Wed Mar 17 23:14:11 2010
From: jeffkreines at mindspring.com (Jeff Kreines)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:14:11 -0500
Subject: [Tig] San Labs
In-Reply-To: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>
References: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>
Message-ID: <9D550F12-EFEC-4158-9A42-C587D525151F@mindspring.com>

I think they went out of business -- seems the world really didn't want to pay nearly $200 for one PTR roller, no matter how special they insisted it was.

Graham may know more about this.


On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Bill Topazio wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
> ====
> 
> Anyone know if San Lab Systems has changed addresses, phones and web
> site?  They seem to have disappeared.  Has Toronto been abducted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Topazio
> Engineering
> COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK
> 
> 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017
> 212-687-4000
> 212-907-1225 direct
> 917-881-0172 cell
> 212-907-1270 fax
> www.company3.com <http://www.company3.com>  / www.methodstudios.com
> <http://www.methodstudios.com>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From lyris1 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 23:36:30 2010
From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:36:30 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?
Message-ID: <b88a75131003171636s668dd9c5r5abdf8880595e925@mail.gmail.com>

Hey group,
I'm a lurking DVD compressionist/author, but the whole telecine process
fascinates me, and it's something I hope to be involved in one day since
it's such a make-or-break stage in determining image quality.

There are weird dirt and scratch removal artefacts that I've seen in an
alarming number of master tapes that have been with me for encoding. Unlike
the usual artefacts you'd expect, these ones are interlaced. It appears that
there are a lot of dirt and scratch removal devices that are running in
Video/Fields mode despite the fact that the film content is entirely
Progressive? The end result of all of this appears to be  that when a dirt
or scratch is detected (or MIS-detected, as is often the case), the machine
only erases/interpolates half of the lines.

Examples (this is from a 625/50 DigiBeta tape, which was supposedly
downconverted from HDCAM SR).
http://davidmackenzie.me/other/artefact1.png
http://davidmackenzie.me/other/artefact2.png
http://davidmackenzie.me/other/artefact3.png

Surely there has to be a better explanation for this; I find it hard to
believe there are that many DVNR (and similar) machines in use that are
misconfigured in this way.

Thanks for any advice.

From ted at tedlangdell.com  Wed Mar 17 23:28:34 2010
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:28:34 -0500
Subject: [Tig] San Labs
In-Reply-To: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>
References: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>
Message-ID: <EC255B24-07CB-45E7-9520-D25458727401@tedlangdell.com>

Hi, Bill,

On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Bill Topazio wrote:
> Anyone know if San Lab Systems has changed addresses, phones and web
> site?  They seem to have disappeared.  Has Toronto been abducted?
>
> Bill Topazio
> Engineering
> COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK


I called them yesterday when trying to access the website. They knew  
it was down.  I'm kinda surprised it's still down.

I pulled up the contact info then (and below) from a Google cached  
page for PTRs:

  Lab Systems (2006) Inc., 12 Carlaw Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, CA M4M  
2R7
Phone: 416.461.7196 Fax: 416.469.2299

That phone number works.

Try info at sanlabsystems.com for e-mail.

The Google cache for the index (front) page says:

WebPage Unavailable
This Page is Temporarily Unavailable.
We Apologize for the Inconvenience

That snapshot was taken on Mar 4 at 4 in the morning. <shrugs>

Ted


From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Thu Mar 18 00:33:27 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:33:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?
In-Reply-To: <b88a75131003171636s668dd9c5r5abdf8880595e925@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b88a75131003171636s668dd9c5r5abdf8880595e925@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003171930060.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, David Mackenzie wrote:
>
> There are weird dirt and scratch removal artefacts that I've seen in an
> alarming number of master tapes that have been with me for encoding. Unlike
> the usual artefacts you'd expect, these ones are interlaced. It appears that
> there are a lot of dirt and scratch removal devices that are running in
> Video/Fields mode despite the fact that the film content is entirely
> Progressive? The end result of all of this appears to be  that when a dirt
> or scratch is detected (or MIS-detected, as is often the case), the machine
> only erases/interpolates half of the lines.

This looks pretty awful.

> Surely there has to be a better explanation for this; I find it hard to
> believe there are that many DVNR (and similar) machines in use that are
> misconfigured in this way.

Perhaps in the urgent need to get stuff done ASAP for cheap, people 
are taking short-cuts or using cheap video-oriented equipment?

The thought that this is getting into master tapes is alarming.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From BTopazio at company3.com  Thu Mar 18 00:34:41 2010
From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:34:41 -0400
Subject: [Tig] San Labs
In-Reply-To: <EC255B24-07CB-45E7-9520-D25458727401@tedlangdell.com>
References: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>
	<EC255B24-07CB-45E7-9520-D25458727401@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D95@harbor250ex.corp.ad>

OK that helps- the phone numbers in my A/P database are different so maybe they are outdated; just couldn't find a cached page with the info.  Thanks guys!

For the record, I don’t like to pay $200 for a PTR roller either: )

 
Bill Topazio
Engineering

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Ted Langdell
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:29 PM
To: Group Internet Telecine
Subject: Re: [Tig] San Labs

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
====

Hi, Bill,

On Mar 17, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Bill Topazio wrote:
> Anyone know if San Lab Systems has changed addresses, phones and web
> site?  They seem to have disappeared.  Has Toronto been abducted?
>
> Bill Topazio
> Engineering
> COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK


I called them yesterday when trying to access the website. They knew  
it was down.  I'm kinda surprised it's still down.

I pulled up the contact info then (and below) from a Google cached  
page for PTRs:

  Lab Systems (2006) Inc., 12 Carlaw Avenue, Toronto, Ontario, CA M4M  
2R7
Phone: 416.461.7196 Fax: 416.469.2299

That phone number works.

Try info at sanlabsystems.com for e-mail.

The Google cache for the index (front) page says:

WebPage Unavailable
This Page is Temporarily Unavailable.
We Apologize for the Inconvenience

That snapshot was taken on Mar 4 at 4 in the morning. <shrugs>

Ted

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3

From lyris1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 00:38:26 2010
From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:38:26 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?
In-Reply-To: <8C922F2A-1160-4106-833D-F18208632278@prestodigital.ca>
References: <b88a75131003171636s668dd9c5r5abdf8880595e925@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C922F2A-1160-4106-833D-F18208632278@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <b88a75131003171738s57855e29j2b76503525340714@mail.gmail.com>

Joe, can you clarify what the situation would be here in PAL-land? The
master tape is from France. I know the source was HDCAM SR, but am unsure if
it was telecine'd at 23.976 or at 25 fps originally.

The majority of MPEG-2 compression done for DVD is so poor that these flaws
are usually the least of people's worries, but I'm using a properly
configured Cinema Craft SP2 (and soon SP3) at high bit rates, so any source
flaws are readily apparent in the final disc.

-David

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Joe Owens <jpo at prestodigital.ca> wrote:

> Not true in telecine.  The DVNR might even be downstream of a 29.97/25 fps
> interlaced color corrector, so it is definitely working with cadenced
> material in NTSC SD -- (no idea why anyone would xfr to 1080i29.97 if the
> neg was originally shot at 23.98...).  The DVNR should however be receiving
> a 2:3 flag so it can figure out the ABCD sequence.
>
>
> On 17-Mar-10, at 5:36 PM, David Mackenzie wrote:
>
>  despite the fact that the film content is entirely
>
> Progressive?
>
>
> Joe Owens
> Presto!Digital Colourgrade
> 302-9664 106 Avenue
> Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
> +1 780 421-9980
> jpo at prestodigital.ca
>
>
>
>

From glennchan at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 03:10:59 2010
From: glennchan at gmail.com (glenn chan)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:10:59 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?
Message-ID: <e4dd10a31003172010i77ddbafdqe6f6216574ab29ce@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if this helps but my guess is that the DVNR was performed on a
60i master.

For a 60i master, there may be numerous cadence breaks.  This is because the
broadcaster may be specific about the exact 60i frame that the program
starts and ends on, and those frames do not necessarily align with the
pulldown cadence.

Because of the cadence breaks, it is "not easy" to detect the 3:2 pulldown.
Maybe I don't understand your problem correctly, but the DVNR got rid of the
hair on 2 fields but not the third?

---As I vaguely understand it:---
1- Trying to do motion estimation on interlaced material does not work.

To quote Yves Faroudja: "Now that I have sold my successful company, I can
tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work!"
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_301-editorial.html
An integral part of getting interlace to progressive to work is to do motion
estimation.

2- There is an article on the old Let It Wave website (I can't find it) that
suggested that cadence detection does not work all the time.

3- Or it could simply be that the hardware device was not configured or
designed to handle 24p->60i material.

The right way to remove scratches and dirt would be to work on the 24p
master (but you need tools that can handle 24p HD).  Or god forbid, the
master may actually be 60i.  But you can pull the material into a non-linear
environment and manually remove the offending dust, scratches, etc.  Of
course that probably does not help you.


Glenn Chan
Colormancer.com (I work on color enhancement and noise reduction tools)
Toronto, Canada

From lyris1 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 05:07:57 2010
From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:07:57 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?
In-Reply-To: <e4dd10a31003172010i77ddbafdqe6f6216574ab29ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e4dd10a31003172010i77ddbafdqe6f6216574ab29ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b88a75131003172207p25283099w85427f1058550ac2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Glenn,

>> Maybe I don't understand your problem correctly, but the DVNR got rid of
the
hair on 2 fields but not the third?

Not in this case, this is a PAL version (2:2 cadence). Here is a sample clip
(11 frames, uncompressed RGB, AVI format, 9mb zipped). As you can see, the
artefact hangs around for 2 frames, although interestingly this is not
always the case.

http://davidmackenzie.me/other/dvnr.zip

Actually, I did my own manual dirt and scratch removal (as well as color
correction) on that title and as part of the process, I manually
de-interlaced the offending areas (and corrected DVNR artefacts, such as the
side of Romy Schneider's cheek in the example image, when possible). The
resulting jaggedness was not too apparent on the final disc since it was
down-res'd to 720x480 for NTSC DVD. The suppliers of the master were not
able to provide a better version at the time.

-David

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 3:10 AM, glenn chan <glennchan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
> ====
>
> I'm not sure if this helps but my guess is that the DVNR was performed on a
> 60i master.
>
> For a 60i master, there may be numerous cadence breaks.  This is because
> the
> broadcaster may be specific about the exact 60i frame that the program
> starts and ends on, and those frames do not necessarily align with the
> pulldown cadence.
>
> Because of the cadence breaks, it is "not easy" to detect the 3:2 pulldown.
> Maybe I don't understand your problem correctly, but the DVNR got rid of
> the
> hair on 2 fields but not the third?
>
> ---As I vaguely understand it:---
> 1- Trying to do motion estimation on interlaced material does not work.
>
> To quote Yves Faroudja: "Now that I have sold my successful company, I can
> tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work!"
> http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_301-editorial.html
> An integral part of getting interlace to progressive to work is to do
> motion
> estimation.
>
> 2- There is an article on the old Let It Wave website (I can't find it)
> that
> suggested that cadence detection does not work all the time.
>
> 3- Or it could simply be that the hardware device was not configured or
> designed to handle 24p->60i material.
>
> The right way to remove scratches and dirt would be to work on the 24p
> master (but you need tools that can handle 24p HD).  Or god forbid, the
> master may actually be 60i.  But you can pull the material into a
> non-linear
> environment and manually remove the offending dust, scratches, etc.  Of
> course that probably does not help you.
>
>
> Glenn Chan
> Colormancer.com (I work on color enhancement and noise reduction tools)
> Toronto, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3

From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 08:29:25 2010
From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:29:25 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?
In-Reply-To: <b88a75131003172207p25283099w85427f1058550ac2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F6D3C87DACE44BEB8F3F731A8C11B39@Sprocket>

David  ..... Sssshhhhh!!!!!    The rest of the industry has stopped
talking about artifacts . .... Its all acceptable now !!!     

For those who don't know me, there was a big fat tongue in my cheek

Graham Collett
Visible Sprockets Ltd
www.visible-sprockets.co.uk
Sprockets(telecine) Ltd
www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk
 


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of David Mackenzie
Sent: 18 March 2010 05:08
To: glenn chan
Cc: tig at tig.colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] Interlaced DVNR artefacts?


Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
====

Hi Glenn,

>> Maybe I don't understand your problem correctly, but the DVNR got rid

>> of
the
hair on 2 fields but not the third?

Not in this case, this is a PAL version (2:2 cadence). Here is a sample
clip (11 frames, uncompressed RGB, AVI format, 9mb zipped). As you can
see, the artefact hangs around for 2 frames, although interestingly this
is not always the case.

http://davidmackenzie.me/other/dvnr.zip

Actually, I did my own manual dirt and scratch removal (as well as color
correction) on that title and as part of the process, I manually
de-interlaced the offending areas (and corrected DVNR artefacts, such as
the side of Romy Schneider's cheek in the example image, when possible).
The resulting jaggedness was not too apparent on the final disc since it
was down-res'd to 720x480 for NTSC DVD. The suppliers of the master were
not able to provide a better version at the time.

-David

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 3:10 AM, glenn chan <glennchan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Glenn Chan for supporting the TIG.
> ====
>
> I'm not sure if this helps but my guess is that the DVNR was performed

> on a 60i master.
>
> For a 60i master, there may be numerous cadence breaks.  This is 
> because the broadcaster may be specific about the exact 60i frame that

> the program starts and ends on, and those frames do not necessarily 
> align with the pulldown cadence.
>
> Because of the cadence breaks, it is "not easy" to detect the 3:2 
> pulldown. Maybe I don't understand your problem correctly, but the 
> DVNR got rid of the hair on 2 fields but not the third?
>
> ---As I vaguely understand it:---
> 1- Trying to do motion estimation on interlaced material does not 
> work.
>
> To quote Yves Faroudja: "Now that I have sold my successful company, I

> can tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work!" 
> http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_301-editorial.html
> An integral part of getting interlace to progressive to work is to do 
> motion estimation.
>
> 2- There is an article on the old Let It Wave website (I can't find 
> it) that suggested that cadence detection does not work all the time.
>
> 3- Or it could simply be that the hardware device was not configured 
> or designed to handle 24p->60i material.
>
> The right way to remove scratches and dirt would be to work on the 24p

> master (but you need tools that can handle 24p HD).  Or god forbid, 
> the master may actually be 60i.  But you can pull the material into a 
> non-linear environment and manually remove the offending dust, 
> scratches, etc.  Of course that probably does not help you.
>
>
> Glenn Chan
> Colormancer.com (I work on color enhancement and noise reduction 
> tools) Toronto, Canada _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From riza at silver.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 10:15:41 2010
From: riza at silver.co.uk (Riza Nur Pacalioglu)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:15:41 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com>
	<1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>

Does that mean that now that, as one can no longer buy Grade 1 CRTs, the only option left for a display with correct and repeatable colourimetry is projection?

Riza Nur Pacalioglu
Producer
Silver Productions, Salisbury, England
http://silver.co.uk


====

Yes indeed, it is still the case. 

Dave Corbitt
HBO Studios
New York 

==== 

Something important to keep in mind with the Panasonic plasmas is not to make your white patch larger than a certain portion of the screen: 
past a certain size, some circuitry/software kicks in (presumably to limit how much current is drawn?) and starts lowering the overall brightness, which can really mess with your calibration. If you have access to a compositing package as your video source, try creating a white square on a black background and measure the brightness as you gradually increase its size: it should remain steady until the patch reachess a certain size, and it should then start to drop. Which of course makes it interesting if you are grading a spot which ends on a white title card. 

This was valid as of the series 10 displays, haven't tried it since on the series 11 or 12, but from a Panasonic presentation I attended recently, I got the impression that this was still the case. 

JF Panisset
MPC
Santa Monica, CA 


From dshannon at nfts.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 16:13:45 2010
From: dshannon at nfts.co.uk (Doug Shannon)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:13:45 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com><1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
Message-ID: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>

>> Does that mean that now that, as one can no longer buy Grade 1 CRTs, the only option left for a display with correct and repeatable colourimetry is projection?

The Panasonic plasma that we have attached to our Baselight has better and more accurate colourimetry than the Sony 24" grade 1 CRTs in the rooms on either side of it, according to Truelight. 

Plus you get to see all the pixels as opposed to a fuzzy approximation on the 800 line Sonys.

YMMV.

Doug Shannon
Senior Systems Engineer
NFTS
UK

From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Thu Mar 18 16:45:12 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:45:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com><1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003181144080.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote:
>
> The Panasonic plasma that we have attached to our Baselight has 
> better and more accurate colourimetry than the Sony 24" grade 1 CRTs 
> in the rooms on either side of it, according to Truelight.

The colourimetry may be improved, but what about the quality of the 
blacks?  Does the plasma calibration remain stable for a long time?

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From hombresur at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 16:39:58 2010
From: hombresur at gmail.com (Jim Lindelien)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:39:58 -0600
Subject: [Tig] 3D projection standards and practices--a suggestion.
Message-ID: <4af3dc921003180939o48549132l6df7d042f01a95a@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps this item has already been covered in some standard
calibration methodology for 3D projection?  Cindy and I saw Avatar
down here in Costa Rica's new (and only) IMAX theater, and noticed
very early that the left-eye imagery was just slightly out of focus
compared to the right-eye's.   Needless to say by the end of the film
we had very watery left-eyes and quite a headache.  Some of the
audience came out looking a bit, er,  blue.  I truly feel for
colorists who will be doing this type of work for "48 hours per day"
if their room's systems are not kept in flawless match.

Jim Lindelien
ex-Engineer/Entrepreneur for TLC
Costa Rican cattle and pig rancher


From rob at colorist.org  Thu Mar 18 16:50:40 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:50:40 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com><1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
Message-ID: <7711FFF0-890B-4D93-9C4A-85EB68450350@colorist.org>


On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Doug Shannon wrote:

> The Panasonic plasma that we have attached to our Baselight has  
> better and more accurate colourimetry than the Sony 24" grade 1 CRTs  
> in the rooms on either side of it, according to Truelight.

How is motion on the Panasonic plasma, I had heard there were recent  
improvements in what had been smearing.

--
Rob Lingelbach  Colorist, Consultant
rob at colorist.org



From dshannon at nfts.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 16:57:57 2010
From: dshannon at nfts.co.uk (Doug Shannon)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:57:57 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com><1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003181144080.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0C03@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>

>> The colourimetry may be improved, but what about the quality of the
blacks?  Does the plasma calibration remain stable for a long time?

Calibration so far has been pretty stable, no more drift than I would
expect from a crt and probably a bit less.  Blacks are genuinely black,
no bleed through. What is interesting is the gamma curve, in Truelight
it looked like a definition of a 2.2 curve with little to no variation
between the channels.

This is on a G10 Panasonic Pro fed HD-SDI

Doug
NFTS



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Thu Mar 18 17:18:07 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:18:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0C03@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com><1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003181144080.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0C03@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003181213430.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote:
>
>>> The colourimetry may be improved, but what about the quality of the
> blacks?  Does the plasma calibration remain stable for a long time?
>
> Calibration so far has been pretty stable, no more drift than I would
> expect from a crt and probably a bit less.  Blacks are genuinely black,
> no bleed through. What is interesting is the gamma curve, in Truelight

It is not uncommon for displays to be non-linear near black.  They 
have a full 'black' mode that they switch to so that they can 
advertise high contrast ratios (measured between maximum black and 
white), but the minimal next step up may be much greater than 
expected, or may waver/pulse/sparkle.  That is what I meant by 
"quality of the blacks".

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 17:08:19 2010
From: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk (Simon Burley)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:08:19 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tig] 3D projection standards and practices--a suggestion.
In-Reply-To: <4af3dc921003180939o48549132l6df7d042f01a95a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4af3dc921003180939o48549132l6df7d042f01a95a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32825.193.45.1.18.1268932099.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk>


On Thu, March 18, 2010 4:39 pm, Jim Lindelien wrote:

> Perhaps this item has already been covered in some standard
> calibration methodology for 3D projection?  Cindy and I saw Avatar
> down here in Costa Rica's new (and only) IMAX theater, and noticed
> very early that the left-eye imagery was just slightly out of focus
> compared to the right-eye's.   Needless to say by the end of the film
> we had very watery left-eyes and quite a headache.

That is one of the downsides of IMAX digital projection; they use two
Christie projectors in a stacked configuration which is less common than
single projector setups. If one lens isn't properly focused then you will
get exactly this problem. Of course you get double the light but have the
disadvantage of double the number of things to go wrong.

Simon

-- 
Simon Burley
RPS Film Imaging Ltd
** Please note new telephone number below **
T: +44 (0) 208 661 9900
M: +44 (0) 7702 732 655
e: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk


From dshannon at nfts.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 22:41:35 2010
From: dshannon at nfts.co.uk (Doug Shannon)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:41:35 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003181213430.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <C7C85C9F.9199%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>

I haven't noticed any of the artifacts you've mentioned on the Panasonic.
Blacks measured using Truelight tracked the way I'd expect them to.

Doug


On 18/03/2010 17:18, "Bob Friesenhahn" <bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote:
>> 
>>>> The colourimetry may be improved, but what about the quality of the
>> blacks?  Does the plasma calibration remain stable for a long time?
>> 
>> Calibration so far has been pretty stable, no more drift than I would
>> expect from a crt and probably a bit less.  Blacks are genuinely black,
>> no bleed through. What is interesting is the gamma curve, in Truelight
> 
> It is not uncommon for displays to be non-linear near black.  They
> have a full 'black' mode that they switch to so that they can
> advertise high contrast ratios (measured between maximum black and
> white), but the minimal next step up may be much greater than
> expected, or may waver/pulse/sparkle.  That is what I meant by
> "quality of the blacks".
> 
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
> 
> 



From carl at stopp.se  Thu Mar 18 22:47:20 2010
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:47:20 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Misc S3D thoughts
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725FA51BD57AC@exchange.stopp.se>

Hi all

some thoughts about S3S, just finished grading 4 short films in S3D, although I had to do it one eye at the time since we haven't spent the extra money for a "propper" setup yet.

Matching cameras
This job was shot on two RedOne cameras, and even with the side-by-side-rig they didn't match. It wasn't a big difference, easy to adjust for.
But what's your experience with two Digital Cameras, do they normaly match?
I would think that maybe two cameras from another mayor manufacturer would have better matching, since Red is still fairly new in camera development. Or is it the same even for those?


Mirror-Rig
For a bunch of shots they used a Morror-rig. One camera shoots through a mirror and the other shoots the reflected image (you know what I mean)...
the one that is morrored get very different colors, its darker and more green...
Is it common to adjust for this ON THE CAMERA during shooting? Maybe not on Red since it shoots Raw, but lets say you used a "normal" HD-Video camera that has all those settings, is it common that a DiT set it all up so the colorist later on have a much better matching source?

Mirror-Rig Polarize-filter effect
I got a bunch of shots that have, lets say, water in the image. A nice river that is reflecting the sky with highlight in the waves on the surface.
On the second camera that shot it on the mirror, the relfected highlights are very different. It look the same as if you used a Polarized Filter on the lence on one camera and not the other (or rotated it differently).
I assume that shooting right through a mirror and shooting the reflection image of a mirror will treat those highlights differently, and it would be normal to get these effect. But shouldn't it be better to but on a Pol-Filter on both cameras and adjust them both so they produe the same effect?
Have anyone seen this before, it it normal, how the heck do you fix it in post without having to rotoscope it manually (I mean, I can't put a window on is cus that will mess up the surrounding beach that doesn't need to be taken down)?



matching general colors
How close does the two eyes need to match?
I had a shot were they underexposed the RedOne by a stop, then they also used the mirror-rig witch stole about half a stop more for the second camera... it's almost impossible to make them 100% matching, especially withing the booked time :) 
What do you more experience S3D-colorists say... can you get away with some mis-match or is it vital for the 3D effect?


Resolution on S3D-Cinema

Someone mentioned that for IMAX3D they use two Christie projectors... are they 2K or 4K?
Lets say a "normal" cheap 1 projector setup uses an 2048x1080-projector... then with the polarizing that should look like 1024x1080 or 2048x540 (or is it even 1024x540?)... wouldn't that idealy need a 8K projector to get it as "crisp" as a 4K-2D show, or a 4K projector to make it look like a 2K-2D show?
Do you guys feel that S3D looses so much resolution that its a shame? 
To me it has felt that the S3D shows a much lower res then normaly (35mm Print) but maybe thats just me getting too much popcorn grease on my 3D-glases :)



Any comments welcome. even the disrespectful :)
/carl

(no conection to any company except my bosses, but he's not mentioned here)


Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22

From steve at oxygendct.com  Thu Mar 18 22:57:51 2010
From: steve at oxygendct.com (Steve Hathaway)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:57:51 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003181213430.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <0ABCC8407DD34F119AE55D168190C486@SteveD630>

LCD monitors from specialist manufacturer Penta in Germany have 999 user
adjustable black levels. This is usually enough for 99.9% of users. 

We provide this information as a comment on technology not a
recommendation. 

Steve Hathaway 

Oxygen DCT 

Aldermaston, UK 

-----Original Message----- 

From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Bob Friesenhahn 

Sent: 18 March 2010 17:18 

To: Doug Shannon 

Cc: Group Internet Telecine 

Subject: Re: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration 

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 

TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10 

==== 

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote: 

> 

>>> The colourimetry may be improved, but what about the quality of the 

> blacks? Does the plasma calibration remain stable for a long time? 

> 

> Calibration so far has been pretty stable, no more drift than I would 

> expect from a crt and probably a bit less. Blacks are genuinely 

> black, no bleed through. What is interesting is the gamma curve, in 

> Truelight 

It is not uncommon for displays to be non-linear near black. They 

have a full 'black' mode that they switch to so that they can 

advertise high contrast ratios (measured between maximum black and 

white), but the minimal next step up may be much greater than 

expected, or may waver/pulse/sparkle. That is what I meant by 

"quality of the blacks". 

Bob 

-- 

Bob Friesenhahn 

bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us,
http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ 

GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ 

_______________________________________________ 

http://reels.colorist.org 

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and 

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is 

believed to be clean. 



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From steve at oxygendct.com  Thu Mar 18 22:57:51 2010
From: steve at oxygendct.com (Steve Hathaway)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:57:51 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
Message-ID: <F8229DD735B947BD8C728034953161E2@SteveD630>

Riza, there are high quality LCD monitors that will give correct,
repeatable colourimetry to REC709 (and other standards. The nice thing
about LCDs is that when aligned accurately they can hold their
colourimetry better than CRTs. Whilst great when calibrated, CRTs tended
to drift within a short time and because they require frequent
calibration and most facilities don't have time, we have found that many
Grade 1 CRTs do not give the correct colourimetry or are 'soft'. LCDs
can have much better stability but their performance is largely
determined by how accurately they were calibrated in the first place;
use a low price, low quality probe with wide tolerances (some are within
20% accuracy) then you're colourimetry is likely to be on the edge from
the start and will go 'south' from there. Get the alignment tighter from
the start and you'll remain within spec for longer. 

Steve Hathaway 

Oxygen DCT Ltd 

Aldermaston, UK 


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.


From rob at colorist.org  Fri Mar 19 00:02:00 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:02:00 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <F8229DD735B947BD8C728034953161E2@SteveD630>
References: <F8229DD735B947BD8C728034953161E2@SteveD630>
Message-ID: <3EF46D1B-5A9B-48BB-B128-B6CEFCDF5AA3@colorist.org>

On Mar 18, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Steve Hathaway wrote:

> Whilst great when calibrated, CRTs tended
> to drift within a short time and because they require frequent
> calibration and most facilities don't have time, we have found that  
> many
> Grade 1 CRTs do not give the correct colourimetry or are 'soft'.

There are post-production facilities continuing to use the Sony BVM 24  
and 32 16x9 HD monitors, with which I have some experience.  The  
several I've been familiar with didn't have problems in colorimetry or  
softness, and matched well among themselves.  From time to time I saw  
purity problems and slight geometry errors (maybe twisted yokes).

A colorist needs to develop confidence in the monitor, and in my case  
I got there by checking the monitor at least daily in a new (to me)  
suite, then backing off an  appropriate amount of time as this trust  
builds.  The usual weekly or biweekly checks include grayscale  
tracking, white point, absolute black level, purity, geometry, ...   
but a professional colorist is hyper-aware of the monitor's condition,  
and these checks can be done in minutes.  In the old days a Conrac  
tube going soft was common; I recall tube changes/monitor out-of- 
service conditions with the Sonys fairly infrequently.

I have no connection at all with Sony, etc.

--
Rob Lingelbach  Colorist, Consultant   TIG admin
rob at colorist.org



From ken at flight4.org  Fri Mar 19 02:23:16 2010
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:23:16 -0300
Subject: [Tig] Plasma and LCD
Message-ID: <61d752b51003181923r69fcfc74j3747722bb773e2cf@mail.gmail.com>

Just wondering what's at the top as far as consumer monitors are
concerned....
And what about the backlight LED systems... Are we going forward?


Ken

Ken Robinson

From rob at colorist.org  Fri Mar 19 05:48:37 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:48:37 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <3EF46D1B-5A9B-48BB-B128-B6CEFCDF5AA3@colorist.org>
References: <F8229DD735B947BD8C728034953161E2@SteveD630>
	<3EF46D1B-5A9B-48BB-B128-B6CEFCDF5AA3@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <1494E383-E7A2-4A5B-A3ED-0612996F355B@colorist.org>


> There are post-production facilities continuing to use the Sony BVM  
> 24 and 32 16x9 HD monitors

of course when the tube goes... I guess that's the end of the line.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Mar 19 14:13:51 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:13:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <0ABCC8407DD34F119AE55D168190C486@SteveD630>
References: <0ABCC8407DD34F119AE55D168190C486@SteveD630>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003190909060.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Steve Hathaway wrote:

> LCD monitors from specialist manufacturer Penta in Germany have 999 user
> adjustable black levels. This is usually enough for 99.9% of users.

What is the meaning of '999 black levels'?  Why is there a need for 
more than one?

I looked at the Penta product line catalog (seems like a reasonable 
set of display products for the broadcast video market) but could not 
find mention of this 999 black levels feature.

Bob

>
> We provide this information as a comment on technology not a
> recommendation.
>
> Steve Hathaway
>
> Oxygen DCT
>
> Aldermaston, UK
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
> Behalf Of Bob Friesenhahn
>
> Sent: 18 March 2010 17:18
>
> To: Doug Shannon
>
> Cc: Group Internet Telecine
>
> Subject: Re: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
>
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
>
> TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
>
> ====
>
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Doug Shannon wrote:
>
>>
>
>>>> The colourimetry may be improved, but what about the quality of the
>
>> blacks? Does the plasma calibration remain stable for a long time?
>
>>
>
>> Calibration so far has been pretty stable, no more drift than I would
>
>> expect from a crt and probably a bit less. Blacks are genuinely
>
>> black, no bleed through. What is interesting is the gamma curve, in
>
>> Truelight
>
> It is not uncommon for displays to be non-linear near black. They
>
> have a full 'black' mode that they switch to so that they can
>
> advertise high contrast ratios (measured between maximum black and
>
> white), but the minimal next step up may be much greater than
>
> expected, or may waver/pulse/sparkle. That is what I meant by
>
> "quality of the blacks".
>
> Bob
>
> -- 
>
> Bob Friesenhahn
>
> bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us,
> http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
>
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> http://reels.colorist.org
>
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
>
> -- 
>
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>
> believed to be clean.
>
>
>
> -- 
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>

--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Mar 19 14:28:21 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:28:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] Misc S3D thoughts
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725FA51BD57AC@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725FA51BD57AC@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003190918010.1592@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Carl Skaff wrote:

> On the second camera that shot it on the mirror, the relfected 
> highlights are very different. It look the same as if you used a 
> Polarized Filter on the lence on one camera and not the other (or 
> rotated it differently).

That is probably because the light is indeed polarized.

Via a random web search, I found this technical text on light 
polarization: "http://kr.cs.ait.ac.th/~radok/physics/l11.htm".

There is a discussion of the odd way that polarized light behaves in 
conjunction with mirrors.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk  Fri Mar 19 12:16:23 2010
From: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk (Simon Burley)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:16:23 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
References: <2d4760ac1003162012o6c9f22ccsf91dd293ddcbaeb2@mail.gmail.com><1751662299.188291268842823755.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
	<1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBA43@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
	<5FD544E5BB77FE4AA9832E3CF8B5B0003C0BD4@nfts-mx2.nfts.local>
Message-ID: <48919.193.45.1.18.1269000983.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk>


On Thu, March 18, 2010 4:13 pm, Doug Shannon wrote:

> The Panasonic plasma that we have attached to our Baselight has better and
> more accurate colourimetry than the Sony 24" grade 1 CRTs in the rooms on
> either side of it, according to Truelight.

Doug, what is the model number of the Panasonic you have there?

Thanks,
Simon

-- 
Simon Burley
RPS Film Imaging Ltd
** Please note new telephone number below **
T: +44 (0) 208 661 9900
M: +44 (0) 7702 732 655
e: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk


From rob at cinelab.com  Fri Mar 19 16:30:25 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:30:25 -0400
Subject: [Tig] San Labs
In-Reply-To: <EC255B24-07CB-45E7-9520-D25458727401@tedlangdell.com>
References: <BC278E029D3A3C41BEDDB3B35F164EE502021D3C@harbor250ex.corp.ad>
	<EC255B24-07CB-45E7-9520-D25458727401@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <EFD13AB4-23BA-4E60-B67B-5EB06DB19272@cinelab.com>

Kodak had 3" PTR's in stock last week and we bought a box but no smaller ones... I think the 3" were about $56 each.

-Rob-


Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From chrism639 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 16:45:20 2010
From: chrism639 at gmail.com (Chris MacKarell)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:45:20 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Misc S3D thoughts
Message-ID: <15c9e7171003190945x36f3ee32n9125b75fd9c93ccf@mail.gmail.com>

Carl,

I've just finished grading and converging a S3D job shot on XDCAMHD
using a mirror rig.
There were focal length and rotational differences between L and R
cams, and the "mirrored" cam was indeed greener.

I found the geometry differences L to R to be more of an impediment to
the visual "fusion" of the stereoscopic effect than color differences
- although you obviously want your grade L and R to be close as
possible.
If practicable, L and R should be matched for geometry and color
before any fine grading and/or convergence adjustment...sort of
obvious really...although I had to match them later in the pipeline on
this job for various reasons.

BTW, be careful about rotoscoping in S3D - Since the L and R views are
different, any roto'ed shapes or objects will be inherently different
L to R, even very slightly - this can create a "buzzing" when the eye
tries to fuse the stereo image - which can detract from the overall
stereo effect.

In my case, the finished content was not intended for projection and
did not display the "mirror-rig polarized-filter effect" which you
found - so I can't really comment on that.

Best,
Christy


From damianavc at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 23:16:54 2010
From: damianavc at gmail.com (Damiana Vasconcellos Carvalho)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:16:54 -0300
Subject: [Tig] 3D Discussions
In-Reply-To: <mailman.406.1269012557.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.406.1269012557.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <19bc8391003191616i43c4a9a2kc7b0fd65a38bb719@mail.gmail.com>

Rob I really need to say that TIG IT'S AMAZING because I was asking about
3D, and now Carl Skaff started a new discussion from another point of view!!
Great,
Thanks everybody!!!
And Rob, I'm not saying it just because you're my friend.... =)

From gd.tk at comcast.net  Sat Mar 20 00:46:50 2010
From: gd.tk at comcast.net (Greg D.)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:46:50 -0400
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: <7711FFF0-890B-4D93-9C4A-85EB68450350@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1269046505.2819.tig@colorist.org>

This is fairly interesting...
http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-s
top.html

Probably generate some more interesting conversation than "interlace
artifacts from my old DVNR!?!!?!"

-Greg Dildine
Colorist in a past life

my brother the web designer came across this...





From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Sat Mar 20 15:07:23 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 09:07:23 -0600
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: <0KZK0007Z2KCAL40@l-daemon>
References: <0KZK0007Z2KCAL40@l-daemon>
Message-ID: <8C3B8012-7508-4F92-908B-2ABF504D13D2@prestodigital.ca>

  Makes me wonder what a vastly expanded electronic media gamut is  
supposed to accomplish when the aesthetic is restricted to two tones.

But it sure cuts out any need to balance out any greens or magentas.   
Makes the grade a "no-brainer", right?  Slap on the look, done.

But surely interlace artifacts need to be recognized, too.  How would  
we date anything?
Maybe by the "inter-3D-Age" (read warming period between Ice Ages)  
that is currently in theatres and is being run up more flagpoles  
everyday.
My wife's comment coming out of "Alice"IMAX a week ago (after  
bitterly resenting a 45 minute wait in a reeking video game arcade  
being assaulted by the sonic equivalent of a war zone) was that the  
technology hasn't really progressed much since the 19th century  
wooden stereoscope.  By the way, her PhD is in exactly that field of  
study.
Whereupon she "got off the bus".  I'm pretty sure we won't be buying  
any "3D" TV sets anytime soon.
But I am equally sure there is an inexhaustible supply of consumers  
for whom no amount of stimulation is enough. -- Just "not too many  
colors, please".
Maybe the cyan-amber axis is the most important relationship on the  
vectorscope (the old I,minus-I NTSC component), but it is puzzling  
that it has been mistaken as the "pop".  But why not?  The story  
lines are just as monotonous and predictable (to as many decimal  
places as you may imagine) so maybe that pictorial treatment is  
entirely appropriate.


>
> Probably generate some more interesting conversation than "interlace
> artifacts from my old DVNR!?!!?!"
>

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sat Mar 20 16:59:48 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:59:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: <201003200055.o2K0tONc018170@blade.simplesystems.org>
References: <201003200055.o2K0tONc018170@blade.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003201138510.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Greg D. wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
> ====
>
> This is fairly interesting...
> http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

Amazing.  So I went and took a look some scenes from Amelie (which I 
thought made amazing use of color), and now wonder if it is an 
infection rather than genius:

   http://www.movieforum.com/features/festivals/tiff01/images/amelie/1024x768.jpg
   http://blogs.phillynews.com/inquirer/flickgrrl/amelie.jpg
   http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl2/6/61259/13_2009/6d8dad7ae211f4e7_AmelieBedroom.preview.jpg

When was the orange and teal style introduced?

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From petej at filmworkers.com  Sat Mar 20 15:57:42 2010
From: petej at filmworkers.com (Pete Jannotta)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 10:57:42 -0500
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: 8C3B8012-7508-4F92-908B-2ABF504D13D2@prestodigital.ca
Message-ID: <20100320155742.8cfb3ed9@mail-server2.filmworkers.com>

Chain restaurants. Canned looks. Make money. Formula. Safe. My boss will   like it and the people will buy it. Easy for the supplier to supply it.   I wish I could "bleach bypass" my email.  <;-)   That would sure give it an edge.
Peace, Pete

  _____  

  _____  

From: Joe Owens [mailto:jpo at prestodigital.ca]
To: tig at colorist.org Group [mailto:tig at colorist.org]
Sent: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 10:07:23 -0500
Subject: Re: [Tig] orange and teal

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
  TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
  ====
  
    Makes me wonder what a vastly expanded electronic media gamut is  
  supposed to accomplish when the aesthetic is restricted to two tones.
  
  But it sure cuts out any need to balance out any greens or magentas.   
  Makes the grade a "no-brainer", right?  Slap on the look, done.
  
  But surely interlace artifacts need to be recognized, too.  How would  
  we date anything?
  Maybe by the "inter-3D-Age" (read warming period between Ice Ages)  
  that is currently in theatres and is being run up more flagpoles  
  everyday.
  My wife's comment coming out of "Alice"IMAX a week ago (after  
  bitterly resenting a 45 minute wait in a reeking video game arcade  
  being assaulted by the sonic equivalent of a war zone) was that the  
  technology hasn't really progressed much since the 19th century  
  wooden stereoscope.  By the way, her PhD is in exactly that field of  
  study.
  Whereupon she "got off the bus".  I'm pretty sure we won't be buying  
  any "3D" TV sets anytime soon.
  But I am equally sure there is an inexhaustible supply of consumers  
  for whom no amount of stimulation is enough. -- Just "not too many  
  colors, please".
  Maybe the cyan-amber axis is the most important relationship on the  
  vectorscope (the old I,minus-I NTSC component), but it is puzzling  
  that it has been mistaken as the "pop".  But why not?  The story  
  lines are just as monotonous and predictable (to as many decimal  
  places as you may imagine) so maybe that pictorial treatment is  
  entirely appropriate.
  
  
  >
  > Probably generate some more interesting conversation than "interlace
  > artifacts from my old DVNR!?!!?!"
  >
  
  Joe Owens
  Presto!Digital Colourgrade
  302-9664 106 Avenue
  Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
  +1 780 421-9980
  jpo at prestodigital.ca
  
  
  
  _______________________________________________
  http://reels.colorist.org
  http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
  
  ______________________________________________________________________
  This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
  For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
  ______________________________________________________________________
    

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

From rob at colorist.org  Sat Mar 20 19:58:56 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:58:56 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Culture of Courage (New Hat)
Message-ID: <8997627F-B279-480F-A3E1-BA672E56DDE0@colorist.org>

A press release on New Hat's DI Theater:

http://tinyurl.com/yfsqkb6

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com  Sat Mar 20 20:03:26 2010
From: rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com (Bob Currier)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:03:26 -0800
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003201138510.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <201003200055.o2K0tONc018170@blade.simplesystems.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003201138510.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <20100320200326.442865921@smarthost.coxmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 8:59 AM, Bob Friesenhahn
<bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote:

>When was the orange and teal style introduced?

First I noticed it was the Roswell TV series (1999), which predates
Amelie by a couple of years. There I think it was an appropriate choice
given the (supposed) New Mexico location. It was supported primariiy by
the art direction with an assist by the colorist (Phil Azenzer, Encore),
at least for the first season.

But it has certainly gotten out of hand.

----- 
Bob Currier                                  rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com
Synthetic Aperture                           voice: +1 949 493-3444
Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best         fax:   +1 949 203-2108
                                             web:   www.synthetic-ap.com





From dshannon at nfts.co.uk  Sat Mar 20 21:46:06 2010
From: dshannon at nfts.co.uk (Doug Shannon)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:46:06 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E5965722DFBDF6@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>
Message-ID: <C7CAF29E.9217%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>

Oh,JF is completely right as usual, that's exactly what it does. Of course
it's not often that you get a completely white field in a show, and even
rarer that the fact it dips 5 ft lamberts when the screen displays it
matters to anyone. The limiting circuitry only kicks in when its outputing
near peak white over more than about 85% of the screen. It's also
progressive so the white output dips gently.

Most calibration software now accounts for this behavior, and let you choose
the option of putting up a white field that is say half the screen area,
which allows you to accurately calibrate white point and luminance.

I accept that this behavior isn't ideal, but in my opinion we've never had
an ideal display. Certainly the Sony BVM-D24 and 32 have great colour but it
drifts, the tubes don't last nearly long enough and are now virtually
unobtanium, and they are undeniably low resolution. The lack of resolution
is painfully obvious when you put them next to a true 1080 device, and it
hides a lot of artefacting that you should be looking out for during an
online.

This all my opinion by the way, not fact written on stone slabs.

Doug Shannon
Systems
NFTS
UK

On 20/03/2010 12:19, "Riza Nur Pacalioglu" <riza at silver.co.uk> wrote:

> Jean-Francois Panisset: "Something important to keep in mind with the
> Panasonic plasmas is not to make your white patch larger than a certain
> portion of the screen: past a certain size, some circuitry/software kicks in
> (presumably to limit how much current is drawn?) and starts lowering the
> overall brightness, which can really mess with your calibration."
> 
> Doug Shannon: "The Panasonic plasma that we have attached to our Baselight has
> better and more accurate colourimetry than the Sony 24" grade 1 CRTs in the
> rooms on either side of it, according to Truelight."
> 
> Doug, what is your response to Jean-Francois' comment, which started this
> thread?
> 
> Riza Nur Pacalioglu
> Producer
> Silver Productions, Salisbury, England
> http://silver.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 



From dshannon at nfts.co.uk  Sat Mar 20 21:53:35 2010
From: dshannon at nfts.co.uk (Doug Shannon)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:53:35 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <48919.193.45.1.18.1269000983.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>

Hi Simon

Can't remember the model number off the top of my head but it's a Euro-spec
11 series 42" Pro Plasma. I got the Euro spec model because the UK model
available at the time had the gamma controls removed from the menus for
reasons that only Panasonic UK could possibly explain

Doug Shannon
Senior Systems Engineer
NFTS


On 19/03/2010 12:16, "Simon Burley" <simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk> wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
TIG NAB Focus Sheet:
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
====


On Thu, March 18,
> 2010 4:13 pm, Doug Shannon wrote:

> The Panasonic plasma that we have
> attached to our Baselight has better and
> more accurate colourimetry than the
> Sony 24" grade 1 CRTs in the rooms on
> either side of it, according to
> Truelight.

Doug, what is the model number of the Panasonic you have
> there?

Thanks,
Simon

-- 
Simon Burley
RPS Film Imaging Ltd
** Please note
> new telephone number below **
T: +44 (0) 208 661 9900
M: +44 (0) 7702 732
> 655
e: 
> simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk

_______________________________________________
ht
> tp://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From bob at bluescreen.com  Sun Mar 21 01:07:34 2010
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:07:34 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Misc S3D thoughts
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725FA51BD57AC@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725FA51BD57AC@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <8mraq598pfjmgpmrnnm5e6prnvkrmc2vto@4ax.com>

I've shot several 3D projects as DIT/Video Controller with the high end rigs
from 3ality and Pace, and these are my observations:

>But what's your experience with two Digital Cameras, do they normaly match?

More or less (see below), if they're controllable, are run in a controllable
mode as opposed to s-log (where there are no controls) and there's someone
there who knows what they're doing. Reds are not controllable.

>the one that is mirrored get very different colors, its darker and more green...
>Is it common to adjust for this ON THE CAMERA during shooting? Maybe not on Red since it shoots Raw, but lets say you used a "normal" HD-Video camera that has all those settings, 
>is it common that a DiT set it all up so the colorist later on have a much better matching source?

It is common, if the production understands the necessity, for someone to
match cameras which can be matched. Having said that, though, let me say this:
all the mirrors I've ever seen, even in the VERY expensive rigs, are not very
good. There is a ton of shading error which cannot be dialed out at the source
because most rigs have zoom lenses, and so are constantly seeing different
portions of the mirror with different shading errors.

Two *perfectly* matched cameras can easily have different colors of sky or
sidewalk when put into the rig because of the shading issue.

The less expensive the rig, the worse the mirror problems.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From rob at cinelab.com  Sat Mar 20 22:19:25 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:19:25 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
Message-ID: <33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>

> 
> Can't remember the model number off the top of my head but it's a Euro-spec
> 11 series 42" Pro Plasma. I got the Euro spec model because the 

I think it is the TH-PF4211UK

-Rob-


Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com





From ted at tedlangdell.com  Sun Mar 21 03:04:42 2010
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:04:42 -0500
Subject: [Tig] New Sharp RGBY color LCD sets--
Message-ID: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>

Watching TV tonight... have seen ads for this new set with George  
Takei as the lab-coated pitch man.
http://www.aquos-world.com/

The concept is that adding yellow to the RGB improves the color gamut.

Thoughts?

If this becomes a trend, wonder how long it'll take for manufacturers  
to do with LCD and other displays what inkjet printer manufacturers  
did with printers... adding more than three colors to the inks on many  
printers.

No connection with this product.

Ted

Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us
Main: 	(530) 741-1212
Cell: 	(530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13
ted at flashscan8.us


The flashscanHD/flashtransfer "West to California Tour" Still in  
Little Rock, AR
Then "Off to NAB" April 11-16
Get details at flashscan8.us















From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sun Mar 21 17:45:44 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:45:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] New Sharp RGBY color LCD sets--
In-Reply-To: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>
References: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003211237550.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010, Ted Langdell wrote:
>
> Watching TV tonight... have seen ads for this new set with George Takei as 
> the lab-coated pitch man.
> http://www.aquos-world.com/
>
> The concept is that adding yellow to the RGB improves the color gamut.
>
> Thoughts?

This is interesting.  Sony (and perhaps others) have offered 
additional "primaries" in earlier sets.

> If this becomes a trend, wonder how long it'll take for manufacturers to do 
> with LCD and other displays what inkjet printer manufacturers did with 
> printers... adding more than three colors to the inks on many printers.

I wonder if anyone really thinks that color gamut range is the most 
significant problem to be resolved in consumer LCD displays?

In a formal analysis of flat-screen displays published several issues 
ago in Widescreen Review (which included 30+ professionally calibrated 
displays), the Sharp AQUOS (not a newer quad-pixel unit) was the only 
one which was disqualified since it behaved so erratically and could 
not be successfully calibrated.

I wonder how these sets are able to take advantage of the advertised 
"5,000,000:1" contrast ratio.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From ken at flight4.org  Sun Mar 21 14:11:39 2010
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:11:39 -0300
Subject: [Tig] New Sharp RGBY color LCD sets--
In-Reply-To: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>
References: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <61d752b51003210711j6b85d856t383b429c6836f7a@mail.gmail.com>

I heard that yellow becomes a problem with the new LED systems...

Ken Robinson


> Watching TV tonight... have seen ads for this new set with George Takei as
> the lab-coated pitch man.
> http://www.aquos-world.com/
>
> The concept is that adding yellow to the RGB improves the color gamut.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> If this becomes a trend, wonder how long it'll take for manufacturers to do
> with LCD and other displays what inkjet printer manufacturers did with
> printers... adding more than three colors to the inks on many printers.
>
> No connection with this product.
>
> Ted
>

From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Sun Mar 21 18:38:59 2010
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:38:59 -0600
Subject: [Tig] New Sharp RGBY color LCD sets--
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003211237550.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003211237550.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <40CB2519-BD5F-4BAF-9079-A7E1D569DC48@prestodigital.ca>

I think they shut off the pixel. My plasma does this really annoying  
thing of shutting off the entire picture on a fade to black.  If  
closing credits are cards with fades in between, essentially it  
inserts 'cutoff-black' between the titles, whenever the level gets  
down to maybe what used to be pedestal.. and then they cut the  
picture back in when the fade up gets back to whatever the threshold  
is.  Standard diode semiconductor drop?


On 21-Mar-10, at 11:45 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> I wonder how these sets are able to take advantage of the  
> advertised "5,000,000:1" contrast ratio...

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sun Mar 21 22:59:04 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:59:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] New Sharp RGBY color LCD sets--
In-Reply-To: <40CB2519-BD5F-4BAF-9079-A7E1D569DC48@prestodigital.ca>
References: <E6F57664-F826-4A39-AE5A-BA1A64D30B54@tedlangdell.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003211237550.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<40CB2519-BD5F-4BAF-9079-A7E1D569DC48@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003211746270.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010, Joe Owens wrote:

> I think they shut off the pixel. My plasma does this really annoying thing of 
> shutting off the entire picture on a fade to black.  If closing credits are 
> cards with fades in between, essentially it inserts 'cutoff-black' between 
> the titles, whenever the level gets down to maybe what used to be pedestal.. 
> and then they cut the picture back in when the fade up gets back to whatever 
> the threshold is.  Standard diode semiconductor drop?

These Sharp displays claim that they are "side lit" so I don't see how 
they can turn off the backlight for individual pixels.  The Samsung 
LCD displays ("LED display") seem to be direct lit in a grid.  If all 
of the pixels in a grid section are black, then the LEDs may have 
their power removed entirely.  Likewise, a white grid section may have 
the LED power increased just short of melting.  This sort of thing 
hardly ever happens with real picture content (except for the fades 
you describe) and the result would be terrible if it did.

LCD vendors rarely post "ANSI" contrast ratio measurements.  Since now 
there are tricks to achieve total black and blindingly intense white, 
a modified ANSI is needed where the black is not completely black, and 
the white is not completely white.  The white/black square pattern 
needs to move as well in order to ensure that the backlights are not 
carefully designed to match up to a specific pattern.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From panisset at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 23:19:46 2010
From: panisset at gmail.com (Jean-Francois Panisset)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:19:46 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
	<33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Robert Houllahan <rob at cinelab.com> wrote:
>
> I think it is the TH-PF4211UK

Make that the TH-42PF11UK.  Arbitrary dashes in product names are
silly, and I remember noticing that Sony couldn't even get it straight
on its own web sites: the same product would show up with a dash,
without a dash, with a dash in a different position... Combine this
with the fact that the "Search" function NEVER actually finds anything
on manufacturer web sites (can't they just outsource that to someone
who knows how to do search, say "google"?).

One annoying thing with the those Panasonic displays is that there
isn't a completely satisfying solution for SD/HD-SDI input. You can
use a HD-SDI to HDMI converter such as the AJA Hi5-3G: that gives you
single/dual/3G HD-SDI input, correctly embeds audio into the HDMI
signal, supports 1080/24psf, but although the converter works at SD,
the panel doesn't accept SD over HDMI. So now you need another input
path for SD. And although the converter itself claims to output HDMI
1.3a 30 bits per pixel, it is unclear if the HDMI input card on the
panel accepts that or truncates everything to 8 bits. The TY-FB7SD
card is not too expensive, but it doesn't support embedded audio, and
you would need some kind of distribution amplifier to send the signal
to both the Hi5-3G and the TY-FB7SD (there's not loop out on either of
these). Or you could get something like the AJA D10CEA D/A (audio + SD
video) and use the component analog inpust of the panel, but then you
have two completely different signal paths into the monitor (including
an analog one) which have to be calibrated separately.

Although I have not tried this myself, based on the published specs,
it seems that the "gen 12" displays (for instance the 58" TH-58PF12UK)
also don't support NTSC/PAL over HDMI.

You can also get the TY-FB11DHD input card: does SD+HD, embedded
audio, single-dual link, but it costs 1.5x the price of the monitor
itself, and it apparently will only correctly detect single vs dual
link signals based on SMPTE 352M Video Payload ID (VPID): a lot of
current video sources don't embed this information in the video
signal, and there is no manual override in the panel menus to deal
with non-compliant signals. By comparison, the Hi5-3G can be
controlled via USB and you can tell it to either auto-detect based on
VPID info or you can force it to single/dual link manually.

At a previous place of employment, we had at least one each of the gen
6, gen 7, gen 8, gen 9 and gen 10 50" displays: it was interesting to
see the menus gradually evolve to expose more controls and make these
displays more "pro" than where they started.

JF Panisset
MPC
Santa Monica, Ca


From rob at colorist.org  Mon Mar 22 05:38:19 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:38:19 -0700
Subject: [Tig] ICA classes announcement
Message-ID: <F654348B-DF85-4780-925B-1E7F010EE4CD@colorist.org>

The International Colorist Academy has announced Colorist classes for  
2010, and an expansion of the their instructor team.

Details at http://www.icolorist.com.

The new ICA instructors are

Cédric Lejeune (LUTs, Color Management and Lustre)
Lorne Miess (Apple Color, Final Cut Studio,  Digital Color Theory)
Jeff Olm (Stereoscopic Grading and Workflows, Lustre)

They join Warren Eagles and Kevin Shaw.


--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Mon Mar 22 22:46:11 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:46:11 -0700
Subject: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes
Message-ID: <9BD488A3-11C6-4266-AAF9-E8361BEF5D7F@colorist.org>

Are there any vendor/manufacturers offering guest passes to NAB this  
year?   We have several people requesting them.

The TIG NAB Focus Sheet 2010 now includes:

Aaton
Arri
Cintel
Digital Vision

and is viewable at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10

Funny how the entries are arriving in exact alphabetical order.
The sooner an entry is received, the earlier it is placed in the list,  
so this is an entreaty to all.

--
Rob Lingelbach, TIG admin/founder
Technical Strategy Consultant, Colorist


From rob at colorist.org  Mon Mar 22 23:23:48 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:23:48 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Tour of LACC Film School
Message-ID: <747629F0-AA7C-4854-845B-CF9411095BCC@colorist.org>

Just added to the calendar at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

Hollywood Section, SMPTE
Tuesday - March 23 -BACK TO SCHOOL FOR SMPTE A tour of the film school  
at Los Angeles City College - 855 N. Vermont, Los Angeles Opening  
comments by Leon Silverman - Walt Disney Digital Studios Click below  
for full details and parking information.
http://www.hsmpte.org/2010%20Meeting%20Reports/LACC%20March%2023.htm

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From dlt at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 23 04:38:45 2010
From: dlt at earthlink.net (David Tosh)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:38:45 -0700
Subject: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes
In-Reply-To: <9BD488A3-11C6-4266-AAF9-E8361BEF5D7F@colorist.org>
References: <9BD488A3-11C6-4266-AAF9-E8361BEF5D7F@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <4BA845D5.9030302@earthlink.net>

Rob Lingelbach wrote:
> Are there any vendor/manufacturers offering guest passes to NAB this 
> year?   We have several people requesting them.

PESA NV1478
Omnion NV1540
Avid https://www.xpressreg.net/register/NABS040/landing.asp?p=NV1788
Harris Broadcast http://www.broadcast.harris.com/promotions/nab2010/

http://alturl.com/6uqr

David Tosh


From pdgdavin at ix.netcom.com  Tue Mar 23 09:24:36 2010
From: pdgdavin at ix.netcom.com (Peter Glassberg)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:24:36 -0400
Subject: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes
In-Reply-To: <9BD488A3-11C6-4266-AAF9-E8361BEF5D7F@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <E1Nu0Lm-0001Yb-8N@elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Here is a free guest pass for the NAB Show. Got to the following website.
https://www.xpressreg.net/register/NABS040/reginfo.asp?p=AM31

Fill out the form Use code AM31 

See you there

Peter Glassberg

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 6:46 PM
To: Telecine Internet Group
Subject: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
====

Are there any vendor/manufacturers offering guest passes to NAB this  
year?   We have several people requesting them.

The TIG NAB Focus Sheet 2010 now includes:

Aaton
Arri
Cintel
Digital Vision

and is viewable at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10

Funny how the entries are arriving in exact alphabetical order.
The sooner an entry is received, the earlier it is placed in the list,  
so this is an entreaty to all.

--
Rob Lingelbach, TIG admin/founder
Technical Strategy Consultant, Colorist

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2750 - Release Date: 03/22/10
03:33:00



From dlt at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 23 20:52:22 2010
From: dlt at earthlink.net (dlt at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:52:22 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes
Message-ID: <3417163.1269377542928.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

You can even get a free pass sponsored by the NAB: use code A558.
(From and ad in "Mix" March 2010.
---
David Tosh


-----Original Message-----
>From: David Tosh <dlt at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Mar 22, 2010 9:38 PM
>To: Telecine Internet Group <tig at tig.colorist.org>
>Subject: Re: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes
>
>Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
>TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
>====
>
>Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>> Are there any vendor/manufacturers offering guest passes to NAB this 
>> year?   We have several people requesting them.
>
>PESA NV1478
>Omnion NV1540
>Avid https://www.xpressreg.net/register/NABS040/landing.asp?p=NV1788
>Harris Broadcast http://www.broadcast.harris.com/promotions/nab2010/
>
>http://alturl.com/6uqr
>
>David Tosh
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://reels.colorist.org
>http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3



From rob at cinelab.com  Tue Mar 23 22:04:57 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:04:57 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Metaspeed Supervisor2 card
Message-ID: <FA1DEEBC-1F7F-4FC8-96AD-38DDE7F07497@cinelab.com>

Hi

Anybody out there with a Metaspeed Supervisor-2 card they would like to sell?

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From SKIADCOCK at aol.com  Wed Mar 24 01:54:42 2010
From: SKIADCOCK at aol.com (SKIADCOCK at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 21:54:42 EDT
Subject: [Tig] NAB news, guest passes
Message-ID: <a0ef9.56e59d19.38dacae2@aol.com>

I've got multiple clients willing to provide free passes, although it looks 
 like a number have already been posted.  Through my membership in a guild 
I  can also get folk access to $100 discount on the conference sessions, but 
I'm  loath to post the link publicly since it is technically for members.  
Plus  I have no idea if they ask for i.d. I can check.  Cheers.
 
Sharon

From rob at cinelab.com  Wed Mar 24 14:32:12 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:32:12 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Metaspeed Supervisor2 card
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAACn303dFBfVLvA+mj77l0t/CgAAAEAAAAKEuKGBLa+1MhVepCs5tGVkBAAAAAA==@posthouse.com>
References: <FA1DEEBC-1F7F-4FC8-96AD-38DDE7F07497@cinelab.com>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAACn303dFBfVLvA+mj77l0t/CgAAAEAAAAKEuKGBLa+1MhVepCs5tGVkBAAAAAA==@posthouse.com>
Message-ID: <CB0CD98D-9E5D-4337-A3CD-59E87EC166C4@cinelab.com>


On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Myron at posthouse.com wrote:

> Rob,
> 
> I might have a spare card that would help.... At least to do some
> troubleshooting.

Thanks but nothing to troubleshoot I have several Flip Stick processors (V40) but I wanted to upgrade one of our machines to Sup-2 and VPT is currently out of Supervisor-2 cards so I will just wait till they have them in stock.

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Colorist-Director
www.cinelab.com






From chrism639 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 24 17:07:01 2010
From: chrism639 at gmail.com (Chris MacKarell)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:07:01 -0400
Subject: [Tig] The World at War
Message-ID: <15c9e7171003241007o7050179clc3085f0bcacb3510@mail.gmail.com>

All,

Forgive me if this has been discussed before...

There was a recent discussion on this list about the show "WW2 in HD"
where members expressed concern about possible destructive treatment
of precious archive footage in preparation of the series.

I've recently been viewing the 1970's Thames TV series "The World at
War" on DVD and I'm very curious if anyone on this list knows if there
was  as much care taken back in the non-digital nineteen-seventies to
be as non-destructive as possible to the celluloid sources during
preparation of the show.
If one were trying to be as non-destructive as possible back then,
what would be the process be from reel to small screen?

Additionally, there does not seem to be much (if any) grading on the
archive footage in the show - B & W is in the main very contrasty and
color is very desaturated. If the series were to me made now I feel
the material would have been "processed" more.

Have patterns of grading archive material become slightly more
aggressive over time?

Thanks
Christy


From dcorbitt77 at comcast.net  Wed Mar 24 18:40:49 2010
From: dcorbitt77 at comcast.net (dcorbitt77 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:40:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tig] The World at War
In-Reply-To: <391161748.3325971269455788632.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1964516499.3327921269456049837.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

Back in the 1970's, if the films were scanned after the development of the Rank Cintel MKIII telecine released around 1975, the film handling would have been quite gentle using a continuous motion rubber capstan to transport the film smoothly through the film gate. More modern telecines use a similar transport but higher resolution scanners will usually use a gentle intermittent movement. Most of the differences in how the film will look after scanning between then and now have to do with modern scanners or telecines now able to scan at much higher resolutions with much less optical flare and much lower noise. In the 1970's the best resolution you could get was 625 video. Nowadays, resolutions of 4K or better are possible although for most video presentations 1920 x 1080 is the usual resolution. 

Not sure of what you mean by "agressive" grading. Technology has improved markedly since the 1970's and so has the expertise of those driving the equipment. Recording tehcnolgy too has improved greatly from the days of analog composite recorings in PAL or NTSC to today's VTRS at native HD rates or file recordings at hgiher resolutions for DI work. As a result of all this, expectations are much higher than way back then. 

Dave Corbitt 
HBO Studios 
NYC 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris MacKarell" <chrism639 at gmail.com> 


All, 

Forgive me if this has been discussed before... 

There was a recent discussion on this list about the show "WW2 in HD" 
........been viewing the 1970's Thames TV series "The World at 
War" on DVD and I'm very curious if anyone on this list knows if there 
was as much care taken back in the non-digital nineteen-seventies to 
be as non-destructive as possible to the celluloid sources during 
preparation of the show. 
If one were trying to be as non-destructive as possible back then, 
what would be the process be from reel to small screen? 

Additionally, there does not seem to be much (if any) grading on the 
archive footage in the show - B & W is in the main very contrasty and 
color is very desaturated. If the series were to me made now I feel 
the material would have been "processed" more. 

Have patterns of grading archive material become slightly more 
aggressive over time? 

Thanks 
Christy 

_______________________________________________ 
http://reels.colorist.org 
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 

From bob at bluescreen.com  Fri Mar 26 01:22:32 2010
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:22:32 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
	<33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
	<2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>

>but although the converter works at SD, the panel doesn't accept SD over HDMI. 

>Although I have not tried this myself, based on the published specs,
>it seems that the "gen 12" displays (for instance the 58" TH-58PF12UK)
>also don't support NTSC/PAL over HDMI.

I don't believe anything accepts Standard Def over HDMI.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

DIT and Video Controller extraordinaire.
High quality images for more than three decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

We sell the portable 12 volt TTR HD-SDI 4x1 router.
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com




From panisset at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 02:28:07 2010
From: panisset at gmail.com (Jean-Francois Panisset)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:28:07 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
	<33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
	<2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2d4760ac1003251928h34a3fc2ax88ccddcfca709e93@mail.gmail.com>

A bit of googling does indeed show that few display devices support
480i over HDMI (mostly projectors), hadn't realized that. Maybe
there's enough memory on the Hi5-3G for AJA to implement at least
simple 480i to 480p deinterlace via line duplication? Seems like the
device is mostly pass-through though...

JF Panisset
MPC
Santa Monica, CA


On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Bob Kertesz <bob at bluescreen.com> wrote:

>
> I don't believe anything accepts Standard Def over HDMI.
>


From rob at cinelab.com  Fri Mar 26 02:32:18 2010
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:32:18 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
	<33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
	<2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>

As far as I can tell the HDMI ( on my 11uk ) is not full ten bits  
either as I do get banding with a blackmagic hdlink pro display port  
to hdmi and the interface did not have banding on Owen's dreamcolor.

Time for the SDI board that costs more than the panel...

Robert Houllahan Film
www.cinelab.com
iPod Telephone sent



>> but although the converter works at SD, the panel doesn't accept SD  
>> over HDMI.


From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri Mar 26 10:42:55 2010
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:42:55 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
	<33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
	<2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <B30E5B8C-7B9C-4956-ADF5-13910BC650BF@autotv.co.uk>

On 26 Mar 2010, at 01:22, Bob Kertesz wrote:
> 
> I don't believe anything accepts Standard Def over HDMI.

My Sharp LCD TV does, as does my Panasonic Plasma TV.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--

From danibam at hotmail.com  Fri Mar 26 09:56:10 2010
From: danibam at hotmail.com (Daniel Perez)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 05:56:10 -0400
Subject: [Tig] DreamColor and the HDLink PRO Display Port - was: Sony
	BVM24	CRT/Panasonic ... calibration
In-Reply-To: <B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>,
	<33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>,
	<2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>,
	<ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>,
	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <COL111-W25C9DE29849C14C954C5BCA3230@phx.gbl>


Hi Robert,

 

I have been trying to find out if the HDLink PRO Display Port 

works well with the DreamColor. As you mention this on your

e-mail I thought I could ask you directly. But you say Owen's

DreamColor ... Should I ask you or should I ask Owen? ... and

how do I ask Owen?

 

I have tried the original HDLink PRO DVI and, as it outputs a

YUV signal, the color engine of the DreamColor gets deactivated

and it is not possible to select a color space anymore. Apparently

the DreamColor only keeps its color processing engine active if

the signal it receives is RGB progressive.


My specific question is: Does the DreamColor loose its color engine

when using the HDLink PRO Display Port as well? What signal were 

you feeding into the HDLink PRO? What was the SDI source?

 

I have also been wondering how the HDLink PRO handles dual link

HD 4:4:4 on its passthrough SDI output port.

 

I have asked BlackMagic on their support site twice .... but they

have simply ingnored me.


Daniel Perez

PRODURAMA Venezuela

DI Supervisor
 
 		 	   		  

From NJK at cbsnews.com  Fri Mar 26 19:38:36 2010
From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:38:36 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Grading A Feature In A Day
Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9201B45EE@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net>

>From studiodaily.com:

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/12057.html



Neal Kassner

Colorist
CBS News/NY



From owen at ywwg.com  Sat Mar 27 01:57:49 2010
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:57:49 -0400
Subject: [Tig] DreamColor and the HDLink PRO Display Port - was: Sony
	BVM24 CRT/Panasonic ... calibration
In-Reply-To: <COL111-W25C9DE29849C14C954C5BCA3230@phx.gbl>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk>
	, <33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com>
	, <2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com>
	, <ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	, <B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
	<COL111-W25C9DE29849C14C954C5BCA3230@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1269655069.4108.254.camel@ywwg>

On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 05:56 -0400, Daniel Perez wrote:

> I have been trying to find out if the HDLink PRO Display Port 
> works well with the DreamColor. As you mention this on your
> e-mail I thought I could ask you directly. But you say Owen's
> DreamColor ... Should I ask you or should I ask Owen? ... and
> how do I ask Owen?

No problem, I read the list.


I think when Rob and I were testing our panels, at one point we tried
the HDLink Pro Displayport with the dreamcolor and it worked.  I was
also using the HDLink Pro DVI for a while, and that worked too -- it was
outputting a correct RGB signal.  I'm not sure why you were getting
YUV-only out of that device.  Eventually I switched to the
HP-recommended Gefen, which is a 10-bit device.  If I were buying it
now, though, I'd get the HDLink.  It's cheaper, easier to use, and has
some extra features that the gefen doesn't have.

(I have an inkling that the new hdlink was designed with the dreamcolor
in mind based on the wording on their PR material.)

owen



From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk  Sat Mar 27 08:19:17 2010
From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:19:17 -0000
Subject: [Tig] The World at War
In-Reply-To: <15c9e7171003241007o7050179clc3085f0bcacb3510@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15c9e7171003241007o7050179clc3085f0bcacb3510@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C25F@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Back then, the source films would have been duped in a lab and the dupes
physically edited. The source films would never have been telecined
directly. 


Steve Roberts
Senior Post Production Engineer
>BBC Studios and Post Production 
>
>020 857 64556
>Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>
www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com

BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Chris MacKarell
Sent: 24 March 2010 17:07
To: tig at colorist.org
Subject: [Tig] The World at War

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
Digital Vision supports the TIG.
====

All,

Forgive me if this has been discussed before...

There was a recent discussion on this list about the show "WW2 in HD"
where members expressed concern about possible destructive treatment of
precious archive footage in preparation of the series.

I've recently been viewing the 1970's Thames TV series "The World at
War" on DVD and I'm very curious if anyone on this list knows if there
was  as much care taken back in the non-digital nineteen-seventies to be
as non-destructive as possible to the celluloid sources during
preparation of the show.
If one were trying to be as non-destructive as possible back then, what
would be the process be from reel to small screen?

Additionally, there does not seem to be much (if any) grading on the
archive footage in the show - B & W is in the main very contrasty and
color is very desaturated. If the series were to me made now I feel the
material would have been "processed" more.

Have patterns of grading archive material become slightly more
aggressive over time?

Thanks
Christy

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
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From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk  Sat Mar 27 08:25:37 2010
From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:25:37 -0000
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

To be blunt, why is the grading on 'Lost' so poor? It's a huge show,
with a big budget and a massive following, but the grading is
*appalling*. Why? What is different in the post workflow from other
shows from the same stable or from other similar productions that don't
suffer this?

One shot will be bright green in the blacks, the next magenta, then blue
etc. There's no continuity of look from shot to shot and this is
noticeably worse in dark scenes - of which, of course, there are many in
'Lost'.

It's almost as if they do a one-light grade on the rushes, but it never
gets a final grade after the edit. Even my girlfriend winces at some of
the grading!  ;)

Any ideas?

(Views are my own and do not reflect company policy etc.)


Steve Roberts
Senior Post Production Engineer
>BBC Studios and Post Production 
>
>020 857 64556
>Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>
www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com

BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England


http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					


From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk  Sat Mar 27 08:30:34 2010
From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:30:34 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Sony BVM24 CRT/Panasonic Plasma monitor calibration
In-Reply-To: <B30E5B8C-7B9C-4956-ADF5-13910BC650BF@autotv.co.uk>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	<B30E5B8C-7B9C-4956-ADF5-13910BC650BF@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C261@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Most (if not all) domestic kit accepts SD (right down to 480i) over
HDMI. 

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Adrian Thomas

On 26 Mar 2010, at 01:22, Bob Kertesz wrote:
> 
> I don't believe anything accepts Standard Def over HDMI.

My Sharp LCD TV does, as does my Panasonic Plasma TV.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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From adamhls at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 12:55:51 2010
From: adamhls at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?w4Fkw6FtIEhhbMOhc3o=?=)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:25:51 +0530
Subject: [Tig] Grading A Feature In A Day
In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9201B45EE@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net>
References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9201B45EE@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net>
Message-ID: <a50947f11003270555r126a82d6v36c5ca002fde3d2d@mail.gmail.com>

Wow. I didn't know it's a big thing. I've graded a 90 minutes film in 8
hours on a Baselight 1 once. It`s even won awards on festivals like the
Berlin International, or the British Independent. Complete 10 hours, I
animated all the beginning and end credits. Movie done. With a machine like
Baselight it`s possible. But I think these are very dangerous things.

Same machine: TV series, low budget, 1 hr grading per episode each episode
aprx. 15 mins long.

Literally painful experiences if you`re operating with a mouse. And putting
on a mask is like playing an FPS game. Shitsurfing happens.

2010/3/27 Kassner, Neal <NJK at cbsnews.com>

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10
> Digital Vision supports the TIG.
> ====
>
> >From studiodaily.com:
>
> http://www.studiodaily.com/main/searchlist/12057.html
>
>
>
> Neal Kassner
>
> Colorist
> CBS News/NY
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3




-- 
Adam Halasz

Digital Colourist

www.colorist.hu       tel: +36306631644

From alf.penn at btinternet.com  Sat Mar 27 13:13:53 2010
From: alf.penn at btinternet.com (Alf Penn)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:13:53 -0000
Subject: [Tig] The World at War
In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C25F@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <15c9e7171003241007o7050179clc3085f0bcacb3510@mail.gmail.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C25F@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <72CAFBC81BDE4246AF37A76EBACB82DC@DEAN103WDS55>

I can guarantee the work was lab processed during the period 1979-1974 not
telecine'd the UK end was processed at Humphries labs (now defunct) I worked
with many of the production team and every care was taken to achieve the
best possible results with the least harm to the original footage, but
obviously some of the footage would already have gone through many duping
and handling stages before this production.

Alf Penn (md TK one Ltd. London)


From carl at stopp.se  Sat Mar 27 08:50:35 2010
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:50:35 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Telecine in Hawaii
In-Reply-To: <mailman.480.1269571035.2822.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.480.1269571035.2822.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <78A7F403-F56B-43AB-A74D-744CD55FC6C3@stopp.se>

Does anyone know or work at a lab o Telecine at Hawaii, Oahu?
Email me of list if you could take a visitor.
/Carl at stopp.se


From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sat Mar 27 14:55:35 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:55:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003270923520.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Steve Roberts wrote:
>
> To be blunt, why is the grading on 'Lost' so poor? It's a huge show,
> with a big budget and a massive following, but the grading is
> *appalling*. Why? What is different in the post workflow from other
> shows from the same stable or from other similar productions that don't
> suffer this?

I see that this is an ABC show.  Is it possible that the show looked 
good for the first five years and then things changed for this season? 
My impression is that the production quality of a number of 
long-standing ABC shows changed for this season, and I suspect that it 
could be because new contracts were cut for production and/or 
post-production work.

The changes to the audio tracks have been more painful to me than the 
changes to the video since they have been quite disruptive to my 
ability to follow the show.  The worst audio offenses are:

   - Play weird music with lyrics at high levels while on-screen
     characters are talking.  The music has no relationship at all
     with the  on-screen action and is seemingly selected to be as
     disruptive to concentration as possible.

   - Play random noises (e.g. orchestra instrument tuneup sounds),
     including those with deep bass extension while on-screen
     characters are talking.  The audio has no relationship at all
     with the on-screen action.  The "boom" from a bass may totally
     drown out individual words from the dialog.

   - Play music and random orchestra tuneup sounds on both the front
     stereo channels, and the rear surround channels.  There is as
     much sound energy from the rear surround channels as the front
     stereo channels.  Sometimes it seems that the audio effects truely
     are surround audio, which can be quite disconcerting as one is
     trying to follow the plot with random instrument sounds comming
     at you from all directions.  I feel like I am part of some sort
     of quadraphonic experiment.

The changes to the audio depend on the show ("Grey's Anatomy" is the 
worst I have encountered) and individual episodes are sometimes ok. 
I communicated with the engineers at my local ABC station (WFAA) but 
they say that they simply pass through the ABC content as is.

I have also observed quite a lot of issues with varying black levels 
in the ABC shows (also started this season).  This got me into trouble 
this year since I apparently adjusted my TV to work best with the 
actual black level of some ABC video content then forgot that I had 
made the adjustment.  Quite often it seems that the video setup for 
black is much higher than where the blacks actually are.  This loses 
precious detail in hair, shadows, and dark clothing.  I have learned 
to simply grin and bear it rather than run the risk of adjusting my TV 
for proper appearance.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From Pingnagan.Pranavam at relianceada.com  Sat Mar 27 17:15:11 2010
From: Pingnagan.Pranavam at relianceada.com (Pingnagan.Pranavam at relianceada.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:45:11 +0530
Subject: [Tig] FOUND MANY SPOTS ON THE DREAM COLOR DISPLAY
Message-ID: <OF4CED84DF.717D6A8F-ON652576F3.005E01F5-652576F3.005E7177@LocalDomain>

Hi,

It was so interesting to hear all over the world that the Dream Color 
MOnitors were very good in Display and can be used as an alternative to 
the Grade  monitors with some .

Out of my experience, As far as what we tested, the Display has a major 
issues with the uniformity, where in the edges are having serious issues 
with the brightness uniformity, I mean in terms of Color, there is some 
color domination, I could also see some spots at the edges.

Any ones experience on this.

With Best Regards,

PINGNAGAN P

Senior Engineer, 

Reliance Media Works Limited
Mumbai, India.



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From janet at shootersinc.com  Sat Mar 27 20:05:41 2010
From: janet at shootersinc.com (Janet Falcon)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:05:41 -0400
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <F8372850-07EF-4F02-91E8-7666C8E54B48@shootersinc.com>

I nearly posted on this same subject after last week.  It seems to me  
that the majority of the show looks good, but then there are scenes,  
usually really dark ones where the blacks are all over the place. I  
was wondering if it could be the display they are grading on that is  
"hiding" the blacks?  Does anybody know what display they are using?

-Janet Falcon
Senior Colorist
Shooters, Inc.


On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:47 AM, "Steve Roberts" <steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk>  
wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> TIG NAB Focus Sheet: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/ 
> TIGNABFS10
> Digital Vision supports the TIG.
> ====
>
> To be blunt, why is the grading on 'Lost' so poor? It's a huge show,
> with a big budget and a massive following, but the grading is
> *appalling*. Why? What is different in the post workflow from other
> shows from the same stable or from other similar productions that  
> don't
> suffer this?
>
> One shot will be bright green in the blacks, the next magenta, then  
> blue
> etc. There's no continuity of look from shot to shot and this is
> noticeably worse in dark scenes - of which, of course, there are  
> many in
> 'Lost'.
>
> It's almost as if they do a one-light grade on the rushes, but it  
> never
> gets a final grade after the edit. Even my girlfriend winces at some  
> of
> the grading!  ;)
>
> Any ideas?
>
> (Views are my own and do not reflect company policy etc.)
>
>
> Steve Roberts
> Senior Post Production Engineer
>> BBC Studios and Post Production
>>
>> 020 857 64556
>> Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>>
> www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com
>
> BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
> Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England
>
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/
> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain  
> personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless  
> specifically stated.
> If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
> Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in  
> reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
> Further communication will signify your consent to this.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3


From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sat Mar 27 20:33:12 2010
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:33:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <F8372850-07EF-4F02-91E8-7666C8E54B48@shootersinc.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<F8372850-07EF-4F02-91E8-7666C8E54B48@shootersinc.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003271530490.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010, Janet Falcon wrote:
>
> I nearly posted on this same subject after last week.  It seems to me that 
> the majority of the show looks good, but then there are scenes, usually 
> really dark ones where the blacks are all over the place. I was wondering if 
> it could be the display they are grading on that is "hiding" the blacks? 
> Does anybody know what display they are using?

Maybe they are grading "in camera".  The viewfinder on the digital 
camera is good enough.  No need for subsequent grading.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/


From smarrocco at ringsidecreative.com  Sat Mar 27 21:39:01 2010
From: smarrocco at ringsidecreative.com (Sam Marrocco)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:39:01 -0400
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003270923520.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003270923520.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <4BAE7AF5.8000601@ringsidecreative.com>


>   The worst audio offenses are:
>
>   - Play weird music with lyrics at high levels while on-screen
>     characters are talking.  The music has no relationship at all
>     with the  on-screen action and is seemingly selected to be as
>     disruptive to concentration as possible.

'Lost' isn't the only show with this....it seems to be a trend in 
television series to have loud music with lyrics playing during 
character discussions...especially discussions that deserve a more 
intimate type of music. It's very annoying and hard to follow. I've 
chalked it up to promoting music (sort of an on-ear product placement). 
Sometimes it is only 5-15 seconds of a song that isn't played anywhere 
else in the show.
-- 


Sam Marrocco
Chief Technical Officer
248-548-2500 Main
248-910-3344 Cell
 
"Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist."

 RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™
http://www.ringsidecreative.com

Find us on Facebook.

Please consider the environment before printing this email.

From bierbaum at bellsouth.net  Sat Mar 27 22:33:08 2010
From: bierbaum at bellsouth.net (Clark E Bierbaum)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:33:08 -0400
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <4BAE7AF5.8000601@ringsidecreative.com>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003270923520.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<4BAE7AF5.8000601@ringsidecreative.com>
Message-ID: <B51FB36C-BAD7-4405-8220-3C89F7D28D11@bellsouth.net>

Was at my parents (in their 80's) house the other week and the TV had  
some weird "surround mode" turned on that made the audio horrible  
(kinda like what was mentioned below.)  Might want to check if  
somebody switched this on.

When will these stupid "features" be seen as a detriment to the  
viewing and listening experience - worst one is the dynamic picture  
circuit that rides the gain.

Re: The grading - might be related to the speed of grade required,  
grading on a non-calibrated monitor, and todays worst trend - no  
scopes or not knowing how to use them.


Clark E. Bierbaum

Colorist, Old Timer, Dedicated to Quality

clark at garnetdev.com



On Mar 27, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Sam Marrocco wrote:

>>   The worst audio offenses are:
>>
>>   - Play weird music with lyrics at high levels while on-screen
>>     characters are talking.  The music has no relationship at all
>>     with the  on-screen action and is seemingly selected to be as
>>     disruptive to concentration as possible.
>
> 'Lost' isn't the only show with this....it seems to be a trend in  
> television series to have loud music with lyrics playing during  
> character discussions...especially discussions that deserve a more  
> intimate type of music. It's very annoying and hard to follow. I've  
> chalked it up to promoting music (sort of an on-ear product  
> placement). Sometimes it is only 5-15 seconds of a song that isn't  
> played anywhere else in the show.

From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com  Sat Mar 27 23:05:53 2010
From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:05:53 -0700
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1003271530490.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C7CAF45F.9219%dshannon@nfts.co.uk><33AA7410-50D8-4E4B-B7A5-02A39EC15FD5@cinelab.com><2d4760ac1003211619s1dff40fbu816971a4f51b40ea@mail.gmail.com><ev2oq5df90eq3rrj8uqg44sjoodp3nfot6@4ax.com>
	<B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<F8372850-07EF-4F02-91E8-7666C8E54B48@shootersinc.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003271530490.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <B22A95BE-EF2C-4DC3-A377-9F31254FB5B2@monkeyswithchopstix.com>

Really?! It took me 30 secs on my iPhone to confirm that LOST is shot  
on film.

http://chrisjrusso.pluggedin.kodak.com/default.asp?item=2360172


Erik
Datalabs
Modern VideoFilm

---

If you understand everything, you must be misinformed.
       - Proverb, (Japanese)

From rob at colorist.org  Sat Mar 27 23:29:51 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (rob at colorist.org)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:29:51 +0000
Subject: [Tig] 'Lost' Grading
In-Reply-To: <B22A95BE-EF2C-4DC3-A377-9F31254FB5B2@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
References: <B8D06584-E07A-4823-BBF4-9CDA702F6E45@cinelab.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C260@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<F8372850-07EF-4F02-91E8-7666C8E54B48@shootersinc.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003271530490.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<B22A95BE-EF2C-4DC3-A377-9F31254FB5B2@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
Message-ID: <20100327232951.GA28439@colorist.org>

On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Erik Hansen wrote:

Really?! It took me 30 secs on my iPhone to confirm that LOST is shot on film.

http://chrisjrusso.pluggedin.kodak.com/default.asp?item=2360172

That article appears to be from April 6, 2009.  Is it possible it applied to last season, and that some production/post parameters were changed, as Bob Friesenhahn noted?

Sent from my DEC VT100© Terminal

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach  Consultant
rob at colorist.org


From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Sun Mar 28 15:02:50 2010
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson at compuserve.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Tig] The World at War
Message-ID: <8CC9C967C9CCE1E-C90-F5E@angweb-usm003.sysops.aol.com>


 
AlfPenn wrote
I can guarantee the work was lab processed during the period 1979-1974 not
telecine'd the UK end was processed at Humphries labs (now defunct) I worked
with many of the production team and every care was taken to achieve the
best possible results with the least harm to the original footage, but
obviously some of the footage would already have gone through many duping
and handling stages before this production.
 


Any grading at that time at Humphries would have been byeyeball and ND filters for the b/w material, or graded using a 2100M Hazeltine. Anenormous flying spot scanner full of valve (vacuum tubes to you guys in theStates!)  The scanning CRT ran at 50microamps  and the display was a large roundRCA Shadow Mask Tube. How do I know this? In my Bell & Howell days I had to fix the Bl**dy thing, when it wentwrong. Normally just pulling tubes and replacing them.  Not sure if any of the operators ever had anychildren as they almost sat astride the scanner CRT. 



cheers


Peter


 



From bob at bluescreen.com  Sun Mar 28 18:32:48 2010
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:32:48 -0700
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: <20100320200326.442865921@smarthost.coxmail.com>
References: <201003200055.o2K0tONc018170@blade.simplesystems.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.01.1003201138510.29281@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<20100320200326.442865921@smarthost.coxmail.com>
Message-ID: <oc4vq55kus72cgvmcf88qd3hek96c911ff@4ax.com>

>>When was the orange and teal style introduced?

>First I noticed it was the Roswell TV series (1999)..
>But it has certainly gotten out of hand.

My impression was that orange became prevalent when episodics started using
Bayer chip based digital cameras.

It looked to me like it was being used to mask the poor quality flesh tones
some of those cameras make :-).

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

DIT and Video Controller extraordinaire. The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.
High quality images for more than three decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©
  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From kevs at finalcolor.com  Mon Mar 29 00:03:31 2010
From: kevs at finalcolor.com (Kevin Shaw)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:03:31 +0000
Subject: [Tig] orange and teal
In-Reply-To: <oc4vq55kus72cgvmcf88qd3hek96c911ff@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <C7D590C3.21FC4%kevs@finalcolor.com>


Its also very prominent in Highlander (1986).
My theory is that this look started with the industrial movies of the 70s
and maybe earlier. Given a very dull factory background, interviews and
inserts were often lit with 2 lamps, one with a red gel and one with blue.
Just to make the scene look more interesting. When creative telecine grading
systems took off in the late 70s/ early eighties a similar effect was done
in grading. However the red was not so pleasant on skin, hence the orange.
And the complimentary color of orange is teal, so that was used for
backgrounds. As has been stated it works on pretty much anything, and it was
very popular in early music videos >>When was the orange and teal style
introduced? >>First I noticed it was the Roswell TV series (1999).. >My
impression was that orange became prevalent when episodics started using
>Bayer chip based digital cameras.
Happy Coloring 
Kevin Shaw                kevs at finalcolor.com colorist, instructor and
consultant www.finalcolor.com          www.icolorist.com New class dates
announced for Singapore, London and Los Angeles in May 2010!



From melmatsuoka at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 20:41:36 2010
From: melmatsuoka at gmail.com (Mel Matsuoka)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 09:41:36 -1000
Subject: [Tig] Telecine in Hawaii
In-Reply-To: <78A7F403-F56B-43AB-A74D-744CD55FC6C3@stopp.se>
References: <mailman.480.1269571035.2822.tig@colorist.org>
	<78A7F403-F56B-43AB-A74D-744CD55FC6C3@stopp.se>
Message-ID: <5F42CB9E-207B-498D-B0E4-7037749BEDB3@gmail.com>


On Mar 26, 2010, at 10:50 PM, Carl Skaff wrote:

> Does anyone know or work at a lab o Telecine at Hawaii, Oahu?
> Email me of list if you could take a visitor.

No such animal exists here, unfortunately. All of our stuff (for what little film gets shot around here these days) gets sent out to labs in California or Washington State.

Aloha,
mel


-- 
Mel Matsuoka
Finishing Editor/Director of Awesomeology
Montaj9 - Honolulu, HI

http://montaj9.com
http://twitter.com/DoctorPebkac

VP, Hawaii Final Cut Pro Users Group
http://hfcpug.org
http://twitter.com/hawaiifcpug









From ted at tedlangdell.com  Wed Mar 31 06:06:31 2010
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 22:06:31 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Third Annual Quad/Editor/Telecine Lunch at NAB--Tues. Apr. 13,
	12:30pm-Location & Map
Message-ID: <9F192026-7E54-4115-969A-98FC654928DB@tedlangdell.com>

The Third Annual Quad/Editor/Telecine Lunch At NAB is just ahead:

Tuesday, April 13, 2010, 12:30pm to ??
Lower South Hall REAR food court & Cyber cafe.
Beyond Extron Electronics, SL111614.

Map: http://expo.nabshow.com/annual10/public/fp.aspx?EventID=1&MapID=18&ContactID=0

Take the central aisle all the way to the east (rear) end of Lower  
South, just past  the Extron booth.

Look for the empty Quad Reel to find the table(s)

Folks with experience or interest in Quad Videotape, Linear Editing  
and Telecine are encouraged to pull up a chair.

Please RSVP to ted at quadvideotapegroup.com so we have a clue as to how  
many seats to hold in the food court.

Looking forward to another interesting occasion.

If you're in Las Vegas on Sunday night, 3/11, several of us are  
planning to dine somewhere.  E-mail if you'd like to join us.

Ted

Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us
Cell: 	(530) 301-2931

Secretary for the  QuadVideotapeGroup.com:
Preserving Tape, Equipment and the Knowledge to use them, in  
conjunction with the Library of Congress
ted at quadvideotapegroup.com





From rob at colorist.org  Wed Mar 31 08:49:34 2010
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 00:49:34 -0700
Subject: [Tig] call for entries TIG NAB Focus Sheet
Message-ID: <DDF27A1D-34F0-49AE-A81D-5E0D03C9A21A@colorist.org>

The TIG NAB Focus Sheet is in its final stages, any manufacturer/ 
vendors who wish to be included please contact me.

Details from the following can be found at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS10

	• 1 Aaton Booth C8541
	• 2 Autodesk Booth SL2020
	• 3 Cintel Booth SL2816
	• 4 Digital Vision Booth SL3709
	• 5 XDT Booth SU-3019
	• 6 Snell Booth N1820
	• 7 FilmLight Paramount Room at The Renaissance; LVCC Sony
            Electronics Booth #C1101; GLOOKAST Booth #SL1429

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org