From rob at colorist.org Tue Feb 2 03:31:14 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:31:14 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Inspiration from Vermeer Message-ID: I just watched Black Narcissus (1947, Technicolor) and found the cinematography and color appealing. It turns out that it was shot by Jack Cardiff, and that Vermeer was an inspiration for the lighting and sets. Quite a stunning film, with extraordinarily detailed backdrops (originally black and white photos, blown up and made color with pastel chalks). Cardiff's career as cinematographer started in 1935 and he appears to have been working until a year or two before his death in 2009 at age 95. One year after Black Narcissus came his work on The Red Shoes. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From carl at stopp.se Tue Feb 2 08:36:23 2010 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:36:23 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Nice graded feauture Message-ID: Speaking about great grading... I just saw "Gamer" the other day. I used my PS3 with was connected to my Sony VPL-HS60 projector via HDMI. The PS3 was set to YCbCr and aperently my Projector didn't like that. I watched the opening fight-sceen and it looked absolutely AMAZING. The skintones were dimmed-blue and all the explosions and fire ware extremly Blue, like ice cold, super saturated. Overall dark. For the opening sceen witch is a gunfight, I didn't think there was a RGB/YUV problem, it looked so nice I just though it was a desired look trying to make it look/feel like a videogame. It was when I came to the next scen, a normal world office scen, were I started to second doubt my setting. Fiddled around a bit and got it to work as it was ment (actually, I could get it back to "wrong" again after that, must have been a hickup in the projector were it thought it was a RGB but it was YUV, although it seems to support YUV in the end) If you have the movie on BluRay, a PS3 and connected to a Projector via HDMI. Have a look and hopefulle we'll see more of that look in the future.. (when looking in the correct colorspace it still looked good. but not the freaky blue look) /Carl ---_--__--__--___--___--__--___--__--_____----_----___ Hey All, Kudos to Stephen Nakamura for his work on "A Single Man". I saw an average print at an average theatre, but the dynamic color changes from desat to color were really well done. I know that a color dissolve is something so simple that we all do, but the execution in this picture was well done. Very evocative of the period, and a great subliminal mood changer, all done with restraint and a steady hand. I also like the way he damped down the HMI flicker in the overcranked shots. Great job. Best, Bob Disclaimer. Yes I have done more than one color dissolve before. ---_--__--__--___--___--__--___--__--_____----_----___ Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From simonastbury at hotmail.com Tue Feb 2 10:00:57 2010 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:00:57 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Inspiration from Vermeer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Cardiff's career as cinematographer started in 1935 and he appears to > have been working until a year or two before his death in 2009 at age > 95. One year after Black Narcissus came his work on The Red Shoes. > > Rob I was lucky enough to work with him on a short film in 1998. A real honour. Even in his eighties he had a very perceptive mind and a fantastic eye. He was amazed by secondary colour correction but did say ' why not just shoot it properly in the first place....' _________________________________________________________________ Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/ From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Tue Feb 2 14:05:37 2010 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:05:37 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Inspiration from Vermeer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5FA882F6C2C14E25AA4FE07B91B5BE94@Sprocket> In the late 90's the late Jack Cardiff came to the late The Machine Room .. to consult with Maria Pallazola of Criterion Pictures in the re-mastering Red Shoes. He had a vivid memory of how he shot it and what he was trying to achieve Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of simon astbury Sent: 02 February 2010 10:01 To: rob at colorist.org; tig at tig.colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] Inspiration from Vermeer Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2032 subscribers in January 2009. Dave Reinowski supports the TIG. ==== > Cardiff's career as cinematographer started in 1935 and he appears to > have been working until a year or two before his death in 2009 at age > 95. One year after Black Narcissus came his work on The Red Shoes. > > Rob I was lucky enough to work with him on a short film in 1998. A real honour. Even in his eighties he had a very perceptive mind and a fantastic eye. He was amazed by secondary colour correction but did say ' why not just shoot it properly in the first place....' _________________________________________________________________ Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Tue Feb 2 15:20:03 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Inspiration from Vermeer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2010, at 5:00 AM, simon astbury wrote: > He was amazed by secondary colour correction but > did say ' why not just shoot it properly in the first place....' He has a point, though as we know, with colorspace translations, etc.... There's something to be said for in-camera or on-set effects, particularly matte paintings and artistic backdrops, that lend an impressionism to the work. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Feb 2 16:49:09 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:49:09 -0500 Subject: [Tig] New in TIG Classifieds Message-ID: New in the TIG Classifieds at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds • 2 HFE Film Cleaners Soho Film Lab has two HFE film cleaners that it is trying to sell. They are both in full working order and otherwise in good condition. RTI/Lipsner Smith CF8200: S/N V2025 suggested sale price £20,000 RTI/ Lipsner Smith CF9200: S/N 200505 suggested sale price £30,000 The stated sale prices are in Sterling and do not including delivery and we would like to suggest that the sale currency is Sterling to avoid fluctuations in money markets, while we expect that an international customer may buy them. As far as delivery this will have to be agreed upon the sale, as again the type of packaging and removal services required will depend on the final destinations For more details and photos please contact philip.crewe (at) sohofilmlab.co.uk [20100202] Other current ads: *****Available: • Jeff Christopherson. Digital Film Engineer, D.I. Supervisor, Consultant, Manager. • Rob Lingelbach, Colorist, Consultant • Jeff Christopherson. Digital Film Engineer, D.I. Supervisor, Consultant, Manager. • Jim Mann, Freelance Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist • Stuart Blake Jones - Freelance Colorist-Consultant-Instructor-Writer • Adam Halasz colourist • Bob Lovejoy, highly experienced colorist • Luciano Martins, Jr. Colorist/Assistant Colorist • Drake Conrad, DI Colorist, Digital Film Supervisor • Dave Larson: Telecine/Facility Engineer • Shadow for sale • FULL SUITE (including Telecine & Da Vinci 2k Plus) For Immediate Sale • Autodesk Flame v2009, Complete System For Sale See details here • For sale GATES • Spirit Datacine for sale. Recently taken out of service in excellent condition. *****Wanted • Wanted: HD card for Spirit Datacine. • Northlight One Scanner • 16mm gate for Arriscan needed -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Tue Feb 2 16:52:45 2010 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:52:45 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Inspiration from Vermeer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72AD52C7-AC7A-47AF-9A82-E5A09090E0FA@prestodigital.ca> ' why not just shoot it properly in the first place....' > > He has a point, though as we know, with colorspace translations, > etc.... > > There's something to be said for in-camera or on-set effects, > particularly matte paintings and artistic backdrops, that lend an > impressionism to the work. > Before the lens is a really great place to "fix things", not only for its organic cachet. I think this probably extends to performance, too, and I'm thinking though of the difference of opinion between 'method' practitioners. I love the anecdote... the story of Sir Laurence Olivier’s curt advice to a young Dustin Hoffman on the 1976 set of Marathon Man showed. When confronted by his exhausted-looking co-star, who’d been depriving himself of sleep for days to portray his character’s worn- out state, Olivier just rolled his eyes: “Why not just try acting, dear boy? It’s much easier.” Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Wed Feb 3 10:16:00 2010 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:16:00 +0000 Subject: [Tig] RealNetworks Helix Message-ID: <3CF63477FC276D4FACCBCF18ED3A3ACC14C84DFC00@UEAEXCHMBX.UEA.AC.UK> Tig'ers, We're currently assessing commerical options for transcoding 1-4 terrabytes a day uncompressed SD. We've been offered free use of a RealNetworks Helix server which, but, in all honesty, previous experiences with RealNetworks have been appalling. Does anyone have any experience with a RealNetworks Helix server? Kind regards, Peter White Head of Technical Development East Anglian Film Archive From dnwarner at crawford.com Wed Feb 3 17:50:11 2010 From: dnwarner at crawford.com (David N Warner (Post Eng)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:50:11 -0500 Subject: [Tig] 125MM Motion Picture Film Scan? In-Reply-To: References: <68034E809606D3428703A885B61DE43E172BF118C8@BARIUM.crawford.com> Message-ID: <68034E809606D3428703A885B61DE43E172DC6E8DB@BARIUM.crawford.com> I have not seen the film yet so cannot say if it has perfs or not. I did get a reply from a company, Photosonics, that made two special use scanners for 125mm film for the Israeli government. I'm wondering if it's not actually motion picture film but some system that would shoot a succession of stills that can be analyzed frame by frame at a high resolution. Most likely something like what you described below. It is aerial footage..... -----Original Message----- From: Samuel Nottingham [mailto:nottinghams3 at verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:35 AM Are you sure this is motion picture film? This sounds like the film format 120 - 220 for still cameras. Since the film you describe is sprocketless, I doubt it would qualify for any scientific-military use. Such a large format would no doubt have been chosen for its resolving power, however the lack o -------------------------- David N. Warner Crawford Media Services 3845 Pleasantdale Road Atlanta, Georgia 30340 Main 678-421-0333 Fax 678.421.6715 Direct 678.421.6814 (e) dnwarner at crawford.com (w) www.crawfordpost.com _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From craig at pudding.co.za Thu Feb 4 08:31:13 2010 From: craig at pudding.co.za (Craig) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:31:13 +0200 Subject: [Tig] ARRI D21 50fps 422 dual stream Message-ID: <4C51287A708743188022F0DA7A8CD6D7@craigpc> Has anyone had problems with noise in the blacks while grading D21 50fps 422 dual stream from the ARRI. We are using a Baselight HD, any suggestions how to get rid of it will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Craig Simonetti From tig at onlinevideo.ch Thu Feb 4 16:09:27 2010 From: tig at onlinevideo.ch (Roger Koller) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 17:09:27 +0100 Subject: [Tig] ARRI D21 50fps 422 dual stream In-Reply-To: <4C51287A708743188022F0DA7A8CD6D7@craigpc> References: <4C51287A708743188022F0DA7A8CD6D7@craigpc> Message-ID: <52B798E6-2CCE-4106-8D77-BB13E2FE400C@onlinevideo.ch> Hi Craig I think this is CMOS sensor related....we had this once with D21 material and almost every time with RED stuff...we usually get in control of that with the FilmMaster noise reducer, which works great.... I know that the grain reducer that Baselight features does not supply very good results...since it's a de-grainer... You might try to use F_DeNoise (Furnace Plug-In from the Foundry) they run on Autodesk, FCP (as FurnaceCore), Nuke, Shake....they work very well but it's an additional step of course... best Roger Koller On Line Video 46 On 04.02.2010, at 09:31, Craig wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > P+S Technik supports the TIG. > ==== > > Has anyone had problems with noise in the blacks while grading D21 > 50fps 422 > dual stream from the ARRI. We are using a Baselight HD, any > suggestions how > to get rid of it will be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > > Craig Simonetti > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From qrichardson at quinessa.com Thu Feb 4 17:23:59 2010 From: qrichardson at quinessa.com (quinn) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:23:59 -0500 Subject: [Tig] ARRI D21 50fps 422 dual stream In-Reply-To: <52B798E6-2CCE-4106-8D77-BB13E2FE400C@onlinevideo.ch> References: <4C51287A708743188022F0DA7A8CD6D7@craigpc> <52B798E6-2CCE-4106-8D77-BB13E2FE400C@onlinevideo.ch> Message-ID: <8B69B525-C148-4620-A285-4E3270C84019@quinessa.com> Semi-related... We have a Baselight HD.. and I've been reading through some of the documentation... Supposedly it supports OFX plug-ins and thus may support Furnace via OFX. Anyone have any experience with this? If it does.. it may be worth getting a demo license to see if it helps with your noise issues good luck On Feb 4, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Roger Koller wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > P+S Technik supports the TIG. > ==== > > Hi Craig > > I think this is CMOS sensor related....we had this once with D21 > material and almost every time with RED stuff...we usually get in > control of that with the FilmMaster noise reducer, which works > great.... > I know that the grain reducer that Baselight features does not > supply very good results...since it's a de-grainer... > You might try to use F_DeNoise (Furnace Plug-In from the Foundry) > they run on Autodesk, FCP (as FurnaceCore), Nuke, Shake....they work > very well but it's an additional step of course... > best > > Roger Koller > On Line Video 46 > > On 04.02.2010, at 09:31, Craig wrote: > >> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. >> 2030 subscribers in February 2009. >> P+S Technik supports the TIG. >> ==== >> >> Has anyone had problems with noise in the blacks while grading D21 >> 50fps 422 >> dual stream from the ARRI. We are using a Baselight HD, any >> suggestions how >> to get rid of it will be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> Craig Simonetti >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> http://reels.colorist.org >> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From philb at filmlight.ltd.uk Fri Feb 5 10:01:13 2010 From: philb at filmlight.ltd.uk (Phil Barrett) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 10:01:13 -0000 Subject: [Tig] ARRI D21 50fps 422 dual stream In-Reply-To: <8B69B525-C148-4620-A285-4E3270C84019@quinessa.com> References: <4C51287A708743188022F0DA7A8CD6D7@craigpc> <52B798E6-2CCE-4106-8D77-BB13E2FE400C@onlinevideo.ch> <8B69B525-C148-4620-A285-4E3270C84019@quinessa.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:23:59 -0000, quinn wrote: > We have a Baselight HD.. and I've been reading through some of the > documentation... > Supposedly it supports OFX plug-ins and thus may support Furnace via OFX. > Anyone have any experience with this? Baselight does indeed support OFX plugins, including The Foundry's Furnace suite. The Furnace tools can be slow though, due to their complex temporal nature. You may find that running an offline denoise pass is a better workflow. Disclaimer: I wrote the OFX code in Baselight. Phil -- Phil Barrett FilmLight From rob at colorist.org Sat Feb 6 16:36:30 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:36:30 -0500 Subject: [Tig] TV receiver technology Message-ID: In looking around for vintage television technology, I ran across an archive of print advertisements for TV receivers, run by Duke University. I'm also reminded of one of the first successful big-screen TVs, the Advent VideoBeam Television, "It's Beyond TV." The ad mentioned it was only for those who appreciated Masterpiece Theatre, the Olympics, or Roots. Some other claims and trade names: Opticlear (Starrett) Wonder Window (Stewart-Warner) TV's Greatest Power Plant (Philco) Cosmic Eye (Sparton) Studio Realism (Sparton) Glare-Guard (Motorola) Straight Through Electricity's Playground (Farnsworth Television; a nod to Peter Swinson) 'Ere Now! What's Comin' Off? (Farnsworth Television; more nods to P. Swinson, in mention of the Crystal Palace) See http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Historical_ads for more. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From abrosenfeld at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 16:50:55 2010 From: abrosenfeld at gmail.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:50:55 -0500 Subject: [Tig] TV receiver technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53bac0a61002060850n22d1631fl93aefab88657ac27@mail.gmail.com> I love using LMGTFY...heheh... DuMont - my family's tv of choice way back when: http://tinyurl.com/yjp8uwm Alan Rosenfeld The Studio at B&H From rob at colorist.org Sat Feb 6 17:39:44 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 12:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Tig] TV receiver technology In-Reply-To: <53bac0a61002060850n22d1631fl93aefab88657ac27@mail.gmail.com> References: <53bac0a61002060850n22d1631fl93aefab88657ac27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Alan Rosenfeld wrote: > DuMont - my family's tv of choice way back when Recently in the US came the set-top adapters for digital TV. Of course this isn't the first time around for adapters. In 1950, Monarch Saphin marketed The Polychrome Adapter which was "your first MUST-STEP towards color-TV reception!" http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/adaccess.TV0860/pg.1/ -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jfmann at optimum.net Mon Feb 8 19:33:33 2010 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:33:33 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Next SMPTE-NY Section Meeting In-Reply-To: References: <53bac0a61002060850n22d1631fl93aefab88657ac27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01caa8f5$9a0f0550$ce2d0ff0$@net> The Next SMPTE-NY Section Meeting has been added to the TIG calendar. http://www.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main be sure to Register at the SMPTE website. http://www.smpteny.org/default.asp Hope to see you there! Regards, Jim Mann Freelance Colorist http://colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann C.516-250-0909 colorist444 at hotmail.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Feb 9 00:43:24 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:43:24 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Cinemascope, B+W 1960 Jack Cardiff Message-ID: <8655A02E-12B9-43FE-B18E-748C06BAB1F4@colorist.org> Cinemascope, B+W 1960 Jack Cardiff: Sons and Lovers (with Trevor Howard). We were talking recently about DoP Jack Cardiff (Black Narcissus, The Red Shoes). and to see he did as a Director, 14 years after the Technicolor beauty of BN and TRS, a black and white Cinemascope picture, you have to know, there were strong creative reasons. Sons and Lovers is an undiscovered gem, worthy of watching for anyone into the art of lighting. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From mikko.kuutti at kava.fi Tue Feb 9 07:31:06 2010 From: mikko.kuutti at kava.fi (Mikko Kuutti) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:31:06 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Quadra Vision missing green channel In-Reply-To: <24A9AF1A-6D90-48A8-A473-967D8F696455@kava.fi> References: <24A9AF1A-6D90-48A8-A473-967D8F696455@kava.fi> Message-ID: Hi all again, our problem has been further diagnosed to be in the preamp for the green channel. So we're now looking for a replacement part, and DFT are not able to help. If any of you have either a preamp at hand, or could point me to a source, we might be able to not scrap the machine for the lack of a silly small part. Anyone? Best regards, Mikko Mikko Kuutti Deputy Director National Audiovisual Archive Sörnäisten rantatie 25, P.O. BOX 16, FI-00501 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455 On 13.1.2010, at 12.52, Mikko Kuutti wrote: > Hi! > > We're having some problems with our newly acquired almost new (s.no 101, 1997) Quadra Vision telecine. > > Shortly after the machine was moved to our premises, the green channel started acting up. At first, we'd get about 45 mins of service followed by disturbances, then the working time decreased to about 10 minutes, and now there's no green output at all. > > A service technician has diagnosed this as a failed green sensor. > > I would welcome any suggestions as to what may be going on, how to fix this, where to get parts etc. > > Any ideas? > > Best regards, > > Mikko > > Mikko Kuutti > Deputy Director > National Audiovisual Archive > Sörnäisten rantatie 25, P.O. BOX 16, FI-00501 Helsinki, Finland > tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455 > From tkvenezuela at hotmail.com Tue Feb 9 14:44:32 2010 From: tkvenezuela at hotmail.com (Ricardo Acosta) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:44:32 +0000 Subject: [Tig] keylink Message-ID: Hello: I´m looking for an Aaton KEYLINK for an Ursa-da Vinci DUI 888 suite. Please contact me off list. Best regards: Ricardo Acosta, Colorista Director. Telecine de Venezuela, Caracas. tkvenezuela at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969 From George.Zerial at nfsa.gov.au Wed Feb 10 00:54:31 2010 From: George.Zerial at nfsa.gov.au (George Zerial) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:54:31 +1100 Subject: [Tig] DAV digital deflection ... Message-ID: hello all, I need some help in determining the value of a resistor in the 200V power supply within the DAV digital deflection box. The power supply creates the GRID voltage for the tube and is a Power-One HB200-0.12-A. ( 200Vdc @ 120mA ), a good old fashioned linear supply from the early 90's. The resisitor in question is labelled R2 and lies in amongst the 10uF 450V filter capacitors. There is no way to determine its value as it is well and truly cooked ...... dont ask how. Ive contacted the local distributors without success and so thought that within this group there might be someone that has "easy" access to this supply and the value of this resistor. If anyone can help with this matter , it would be truly appreciated. regards, George Zerial Video/Telecine Engineer National Film & Sound Archive From rob at cinelab.com Wed Feb 10 02:34:50 2010 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 21:34:50 -0500 Subject: [Tig] DAV digital deflection ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18AD8B27-579F-4DC6-93E3-1C86C1D4EB59@cinelab.com> I have complete detailed manus for ours with parts descriptions I believe I will check tomorrow Rob Robert Houllahan Film www.cinelab.com iPod Telephone sent On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:54 PM, George Zerial wrote: > hello all, I need some help in determining the value of a resistor > in the > 200V power supply within the DAV digital deflection box. > > regards, > George Zerial > Video/Telecine Engineer > National Film & Sound Archive From George.Zerial at nfsa.gov.au Wed Feb 10 21:28:09 2010 From: George.Zerial at nfsa.gov.au (George Zerial) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:28:09 +1100 Subject: [Tig] DAV deflection Message-ID: well, what an overwhelming response Ive had. Thankyou to all who replied and in particular to Nathan Gleit for his correction to the correct component (R20) and the picture of the resistor in question. ( 7.5K) The manuals I have for the DAV system extend as far as the main circuit boards. I have to assume as the external power supplies are generic, there is no information available for them. Well in my case anyways...... and as far as the local distributor is concerned. While I have your interest in this area, what brought me here in the first place is a "fault" that has been plaguing me on and off now for some time. I didnt want to send out an email to the TIG until I had more information ......... but here I am. After things have "warmed up" and intermittently, the intesity of the tube gets modulated. The net effect is the picture "bouncing" on the waveform monitor. Wanting to dismiss the tube for obviou$ reasons, I have been probing around the area of the grid control ( 200V supplied by the external Power One supply) As luck would have it and the position in which one has to get in to access the area ( Wii Fit take note...) with a cro probe is not conducive to a happy ending. Fortunately it was only a 5cent resistor. So Im trying to gather information. Trying to get a grip on something thats going to give me a clue as to why this "modulation" is happening. Anyone got any ideas ?? If nothing else, its a comforting thing knowing there is a global connection to people with similar situations and setups. regards, George Zerial Video/Telecine Engineer National Film & Sound Archive From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Feb 11 15:52:17 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:52:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] DAV deflection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, George Zerial wrote: > > well, what an overwhelming response Ive had. > Thankyou to all who replied and in particular to Nathan Gleit for his > correction to the correct component (R20) and the picture of the resistor > in question. ( 7.5K) 7.5K ohm resistors do not burn up very easily. It requires continually applied high voltage, or a mechanical defect. It is useful to know why the resistor burned up since the cause may still be present. What is the wattage of the resistor? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at cinelab.com Thu Feb 11 22:55:41 2010 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:55:41 -0500 Subject: [Tig] DAV deflection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > boards. I have to assume as the external power supplies are generic, > there is no information available for them. I was told (I think by Glen Gundglich ) that there were two versions of the Digital Deflection main unit with the later one having newer and more reliable power supplies. I don't know if this extends to the tube heater supply as well though. I know the main X-Y amps were different in later units. I have one spare main deflection package that I can pop the top off of to see what supplies it contains. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com From warrenl at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 15:40:50 2010 From: warrenl at gmail.com (woz) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:40:50 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Metropolis restoration? Message-ID: <816d14ca1002120740x5e68a96kb01d16a928055639@mail.gmail.com> Apologies if this has been covered already, does anyone know what equipment was used and the workflow detail for the restoration of the Metropolis print (I assume it was a print?) discovered in Argentina? woz From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Fri Feb 12 16:57:55 2010 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:57:55 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Metropolis restoration? In-Reply-To: <816d14ca1002120740x5e68a96kb01d16a928055639@mail.gmail.com> References: <816d14ca1002120740x5e68a96kb01d16a928055639@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6C1FF@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> It was a 16mm dupe neg, but that's all I know. Steve Roberts Senior Post Production Engineer >BBC Studios and Post Production > >020 857 64556 >Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ > www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of woz Sent: 12 February 2010 15:41 To: tig at colorist.org Subject: [Tig] Metropolis restoration? Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2009. Company 3 supports the TIG. ==== Apologies if this has been covered already, does anyone know what equipment was used and the workflow detail for the restoration of the Metropolis print (I assume it was a print?) discovered in Argentina? woz _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From frank at opticalart.de Fri Feb 12 17:17:46 2010 From: frank at opticalart.de (Frank Hellmann) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:17:46 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Metropolis restoration? In-Reply-To: <816d14ca1002120740x5e68a96kb01d16a928055639@mail.gmail.com> References: <816d14ca1002120740x5e68a96kb01d16a928055639@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B758D3A.5020708@opticalart.de> Check out Alpha Omegas Website: http://www.alpha-omega.de/doku.php?id=en:start Seems to have been proprietary software. If I remember correctly the scans were done on an ArriScan at Arri Munich, but I could be wrong here... Best, Frank... woz schrieb: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > Apologies if this has been covered already, does anyone know what equipment > was used and the workflow detail for the restoration of the Metropolis print > (I assume it was a print?) discovered in Argentina? > woz > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OPTICAL ART Film & Special-Effects GmbH Waterloohain 6-8 Frank Hellmann DI Supervisor 22769 Hamburg frank at opticalart.de http://www.opticalart.de Tel: +49 40 5111051 Fax: +49 40 43169499 Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg, Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 384 70 Geschäftsführer: Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Niederlassung Berlin Skalitzer Straße 104 10997 Berlin Niederlassung Frankfurt Hanauer Landstraße 163-171 60314 Frankfurt Niederlassung Halle Mansfelderstrasse 56 06108 Halle ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OPTICAL ART Digital & Film GmbH Graf Adolf Str. 22 Frank Hellmann DI Supervisor 40212 Düsseldorf frank at opticalart.de http://www.opticalart.de Tel: +49 211 828590 Sitz der Gesellschaft: Düsseldorf, Amtsgericht Düsseldorf HRB 38 132 Geschäftsführer: Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu Fri Feb 12 19:14:09 2010 From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:14:09 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Why is "modulation" is happening? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fa0b83b31080.4b756231@mail.nyu.edu> Maybe the resistor being burned is not the problem but another symptom. If the bridge rectifier is bad it might only be rectifying half the wave, that fluctuating level might be what is normally just a filter cap charging and discharging causing DC level fluctuation. ---Larry From rob at colorist.org Sat Feb 13 22:16:45 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 17:16:45 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Seeing forbidden colors Message-ID: David Hume posed the question in 1739: Is it possible to perceive a new color? The February issue of Scientific American magazine has an article on the results of a study by Vincent A. Billock and Brian H. Tsou demonstrating that "people can be made to see reddish green and yellowish blue, colors forbidden by theories of color perception. These and other hallucinations provide a window in the phenomenon of visual opponency." A preview of the article is at http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=seeing-forbidden-colors ...the full article appears only to be in the full magazine as sold, either on the web or at a newsstand. There are other interesting conclusions in the article regarding geometric hallucinations, suggesting there is also an opponency that pits some shapes against others. Rob TIG admin, founder -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Tom at tgt.org Sat Feb 13 22:48:11 2010 From: Tom at tgt.org (Tom Tcimpidis) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:48:11 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Seeing forbidden colors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001001caacfe$9ea5ff30$dbf1fd90$@org> I've been a reader of Scientific American almost my entire life and I tried the forbidden color experiment detailed in the article. To my surprise, it did indeed work for me. My wife, on the other hand, could not see any difference... Tom Los Angeles "The February issue of Scientific American magazine has an article on the results of a study by Vincent A. Billock and Brian H. Tsou demonstrating that "people can be made to see reddish green and yellowish blue, colors forbidden by theories of color perception. These and other hallucinations provide a window in the phenomenon of visual opponency." From warrenl at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 01:57:44 2010 From: warrenl at gmail.com (woz) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:57:44 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Sulphur Lamp ( or Sulfur or Sulfer?) Message-ID: <816d14ca1002131757k7bcb537and7db88c186ce0944@mail.gmail.com> Someone asked a question about Sulphur Lamps some time ago, with a recent reminder about the post from Rob L. I found this if anyone is interested. I hope posting the contents of the link doesn't contravene any TIG rules. The document header does give permission to reproduce the document. The usual caveats apply, Don't try this at home etc. Article at: http://members.misty.com/don/sulfbulb.html (which I followed from http://www.mts.net/~william5/library1.htm, this being a site about Light and lighting. Some links didn't resolve) In particular the article mentions the use of the lamps at the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, but it was 10 years ago so who knows if they are still in use. regards w ************************************************************************ * VARIOUS NOTES ON THE SULFUR LAMP * * * * **** Version 1.02 **** * * * * Copyright (C) 1996-1999 * * Samuel M. Goldwasser * * Don Klipstein * * * * Corrections or suggestions to: * * sam at stdavids.marconimed.com or don at misty.com * * * * --- All Rights Reserved --- * * * * Reproduction of this document in whole or in part is permitted * * if both of the following conditions are satisfied: * * * * 1. This notice is included in its entirety at the beginning. * * 2. There is no charge except to cover the costs of copying. * * * ************************************************************************ **************** INTRODUCTION **************** Sulfur lamp technology: ---------------------- There has been quite a bit of publicity lately about a new technology in lighting - the sulfur lamp. While lighting is not normally thought of as high tech, you may change your mind after reading these articles. This document contains a collection of articles and discussions on various aspects of sulfur lamp technology. Microwave energy similar in power and wavelength to what your microwave oven uses (microwave oven parts may actually be used in some implementations) excite sulfur in an argon filled bulb (other gasses may also be used and affect the spectral distribution). The small bulb must spin as well as being forced air cooled to prevent an instant melt-down. The spectra is not quite like daylight but is broad-spectrum - more polychromatic than most other non-incandescent technologies. In the current implementation, the bulbs are very small (golf ball size or less) but are used to illuminate the inside of a long light pipe which is actually used to distribute and diffuse the light. The Smithsonian Air and Space Museum apparently has installed 3 of these to replace over 100 high pressure discharge lamps with a resulting brighter more natural illumination and reduced energy. They kind of look like overgrown fluorescent bulbs - a substantial fraction of the length of the exhibit hall. The sulfur lamps and microwave exciters are at each end. Unfortunately, it is not clear how well this technology will scale down to residential use. The excitation requires a microwave generator - magnetron like in your microwave oven. At the present time, the bulbs need to be rotated continuously to distribute the sulfur/Ar mixture so there is also a motor involved. Hopefully, these problems can be overcome economically. An interesting technology. Stay tuned. **************** ROB'S DETAILED NOTES ON THE SULFUR LAMP **************** (From: robpen at wseo.wa.gov (Rob Penney)) Introduction: ------------ These notes are somewhat out of date at this time (1996), but cover the fundamentals and include contacts for updated information. I hope this helps. Anyone west of the Mississippi would like us to research this further (the latest articles, papers, proceedings, info from manufacturer and researchers), contact me at the address below and I can do this as part of a contract with BPA and WAPA to support energy conservation for utilities and their customers. Nutshell: -------- Exciting sulfur and quartz with microwaves creates great amounts of light with similar properties to sunlight but without the ultraviolet component. The light is distributed though light pipe for hundreds of feet, replacing hundreds of conventional fixtures. A smaller version may be installed in a torch-type indirect lighting system. The lamp itself may last indefinitely, and the microwave generator may need occasional replacement parts. Lumen depreciation is negligible, and CRI will remain fairly constant. Construction: ------------ Sulfur lamps consist of a golf-ball-sized sphere filled with sulfur, quartz, and argon. It is energized by a 5900-watt magnetron similar to that on a kitchen microwave oven. The spherical lamp is constantly rotated at about 600 rpm on a glass spindle surrounded by a jet of compressed air. If the lamp were ever to stop rotating, it would melt within two seconds. The technology is quite similar to a UV light source that Fusion Systems has been selling to chip manufacturers and printers for 15 years. Fusion is planning to release more efficient, smaller models by early 1996, roughly 1000 watts and 140,000 lumens. Lawrence Berkeley Labs is working on a 75-watt version of this for interior lighting. They are also working on making the magnetron smaller by using more solid state electronics. The smaller models will not use cooling air and would spin about 1000 rpm. The technology has the environmental advantage of using no mercury. The light emitted is reflected by a parabolic reflector into a 10" light pipe made of acrylic, prismatic film. This pipe is almost opaque on top. The bottom is made of many parallel, curved, reflective grates which catch some of the light and reflect in down and out to the sides. The ration of how much light goes down and how much out to the sides can be varied to meet design needs. How much light goes out altogether varies along the length, with more allowed to pass through farther from the light source and less near the light source, to create more uniform luminance along the length. The light pipe would therefore need to be purchased in sections, each with specific characteristics. A mirror at the far end of the pipe reflects back any light traveling that far. Smaller models may not use light pipe, either using a more standard fixture or possibly fiber optics. One such application being considered is to install the light on a 7' tall pedestal in an office cubicle area creating a powerful indirect lighting system. Light output: ------------ It emits 450,000 lumens, 310,000 of which are reflected into the light pipe. The spectrum is closer to visible light than most conventional lighting sources. The chemistry of the lamp can be varied somewhat to adjust the exact light spectrum. Light output of lower wattage versions would be less. Health effects: -------------- There is a greatly reduced component of damaging ultraviolet light. Efficacy: -------- The efficacy of the lamp itself is 450,000/5900 = 76 l/w. If you consider the lamp reflector as part of the lamp, the efficacy drops to 310,000/ 5900 watts, so 53 lumens per watt. The light pipe is roughly 60 percent efficient, so the efficacy of the whole fixture is 31 lumens per watt. That would be reduced further if the system gets dirty or is not properly maintained. This does not compare well with other light sources which have efficacies up to 180 lumens per watt, although the CRI of the sulfur lamp is greatly superior to such other lamps. Looking at fixture efficiency, this would be 0.7 (reflector) times 0.6 (light pipe), producing a fixture efficiency of 0.42. This matches very closely that measured by LBL. Fusion hopes in increase lamp efficiency considerably. Life expectancy: --------------- The sulfur lighting system is currently rated to last 10-20,000 hours, but this is a rough estimate. Because the components in the lamp do not chemically react and it has no electrodes, the life of the lamp itself should be quite long. What would probably fail is an electrical component of the magnetron. Electrical/mechanical maintenance: --------------------------------- Because one sulfur lighting system can replace several hundred conventional light fixtures, maintenance can be greatly reduced. In an area with an inaccessibly ceiling, this can be an attractive feature. The light pipe itself needs to be cleaned periodically, probably with something on the end of a long stick. The electronic components in the magnetron will eventually need replacing, but that can all be located in a easily accessible spot. Lumen maintenance: ----------------- Again, because the components in the lamp do not chemically react, light output and quality should remain unchanged. However, if the light pipe is not kept clean, the effective light output will suffer. Other performance issues: ------------------------ Many of those who witnessed the first installation of a light pipe system were distracted and surprised by the noise of it. This was primarily due to the cooling system, probably an air compressor which are notoriously noisy. Using a single source, a large area could lose lighting if the light source failed. Systems should therefore be designed with redundant light sources with automatic backup. Availability: ------------ Products were expected to be available at the end of 1995. Cost estimates are unknown, but the system installed at DOE headquarters was reported to cost one-third that of the mercury vapor system it replaced. Expert resources: ---------------- The folks most on top of this new technology are with the manufacturer (Kirk Winkler at Fusion Lighting 301/251-0300) and with Lawrence Berkeley Labs (start with Francis Rubinstein 510/486-4096, FMRubinstein at lbl.gov). LBL is doing a lot of research for DOE on applications for this new technology. Manufacturers: ------------- Fusion Lighting, Inc., of Rockville, MD, a privately-help spin-off of Fusion Systems Corp., makes the fusion lamp. 301/251-0300. Kirk Winkler, x5553. A.L. Whitehead of Vancouver, BC, makes the light pipe. **************** ITEMS OF INTEREST **************** This is the only slightly edited transcript of an email discussion between Sam (>) and Don. (From: Don Klipstein (don at misty.com)). > When will we see household sulfur lamps?: My answer is, not any time soon. Consider the electricity cost of operating compact fluorescent lamps a few hours a day, and maybe the cost of the bulbs. How much would you invest up front to cut the electricity costs by 50 to 60 percent? The return should exceed that of competing investment opportunities. There are quite a few minor technical hurdles. The sulfur lamps in use now are 5.6 KW (or is that 5.9 KW?) units of golf ball size. The Fusion Lighting Co. (unsure of exact name) is working on 1 KW units. I am guessing that using a xenon-sulfur mix instead of an argon-sulfur mix might reduce heat conduction enough to reduce the bulb's diameter by (optimistically) a half to two-thirds. This would would reduce the power to around 100-200 watts. If you blow a jet of air at the bulb to cool it further, they might be scalable down to the point that power input is only a few times the heat conduction loss. I am guessing 30 to 50 watts, as a number out of a hat. Sulfur bulbs also have a quirk having to do with convection. The 5.6 KW bulbs must be kept rotating. Otherwise, a major hot spot will develop at the top of the bulb, destroying it in something like 1 or 2 seconds. Use of xenon instead of argon does not help this much. On a smaller scale, convection MIGHT not be as bad, but I suspect the lamp will still need a motor. Another hurdle is getting 50 watts of microwaves into a target the size of a pea. I doubt this can easily be done at the 2.4 GHz or so frequency of microwave ovens. One would need a much higher frequency probably well over 10 GHz. And the microwave source must still be economical, efficient, and reliable. And all of this must be done in a manner satisfactory to the FCC. I don't know if there are any bands in the 10-30 GHz range where such microwave use is permitted. Of course, the regulations can be changed if the need is great enough. Since xenon does not ionize as easily as argon, an auxiliary means of "igniting" the bulb might be necessary. This might be some sort of Tesla coil, flyback transformer, or trigger coil type of device. Not too expensive once someone gets in the swing of making the cheapest thing that works, but it is a minor extra expense and possible aggravation. Meanwhile, what would be "ignited"? The gas in the bulb, or the air outside it? Might be a problem if the gas in the bulb has to be at a really high pressure, and I have little idea what that might be. Another consideration is the color of sulfur light. Generally, the color temperature is high. I saw a wide range of 4000-10,000 Kelvin somewhere (see below for where), but they said it works best with color temperatures in the middle and upper portion of this range. A color temp. of 5500 K is an icy pure to slightly bluish white. 6500 K is definitely a bit bluish; this is the color of "Daylight" fluorescent lamps. Maybe good for outdoor use away from astronomers, but not a popular color for illuminating a living room. Furthermore, sulfur lamps are a bit greenish compared to a blackbody source. As for filtering this light, maybe things aren't too bad: The #85 Wratten filter is about two-thirds transparent to 6500 Kelvin light, and converts it to around 3750 Kelvin. A filter gel to convert 5500 to 3750 would be even better, if a mini sulfur bulb can efficiently produce 5500 K light. If fluorescent materials could be employed to convert some of the shorter wavelength stuff to red light, things get even better. If something can be made for under 100-200 dollars and be satisfactory, we might have something. Otherwise a mini sulfur lamp would be just a curiosity, conversation piece, or suitable for a few special purposes. For some bits of info about sulfur lamps, check: http://www.webcom.com/~lightsrc, and find the part with the "archive" of older articles. The one about sulfur lamps is available for a month every several months. The "archive" rotates in and out some of the more popular articles every month. Again, I don't expect to find any sulfur lamps in the nearest home building supply store any time soon. Discussion on the feasibility of a homemade sulfur lamp: ------------------------------------------------------- >So when can we build one? I thought a bit more on sulfur lamps this morning. Don't see problems at frequencies higher than already used, in terms of microwave penetration (should be fairly constant as freq. increases past what works well) or reflection by the plasma (should be even less as freq. increases). Possible problem with small bulbs is getting microwaves absorbed fairly completely by a tiny plasma, but adjusting the fill gas pressure will probably fix this. As for convection, it not only heats the top of the bulb but also transports heat from the plasma to the bulb. This may be a significant energy loss at lower power levels. Efficiency of smaller bulbs may be significantly improved by rotating them to prevent convection currents. How to build one? Hardly looks like a DIY to me. Takes quite a bit of doing to blow a good strong bubble out of quartz. Its trickier than glass, and also needs higher temperatures. I will check into this in the library when summer approaches, if there is demand for info on how to do this in your basement. MY ADVICE: Don't try this at home. Required materials and equipment will probably cost thousands of dollars. You need lots of patience and AT BEST some tricky glassblowing. Prepare for bulbs to explode if flawed. Stick to Tesla coils, they're easier. > Would a low power sulfur lamp need to be smaller or could the same > 1 inch or so bulbs be used? Underpowering a 1 inch bulb would cause 2 problems: 1. The thermal conduction loss from a plasma at a normal operating temperature is roughly proportional to the diameter of the plasma. I believe this would be a surprisingly constant fraction of the bulb's size. 2. Underpower the bulb enough, and the plasma temperature drops, probably shifting the spectrum to less visible wavelengths and possibly also causing an undesirable color shift (maybe from greenish blue-white to whitish green-yellow). Then again, the color might be like that of a gas mantle, which isn't too bad. However, I suspect that efficiency and color may be only mildly impaired by operating a xenon-filled (instead of argon) 1-inch bulb (1-KW size??) at something like 100-200 watts. Nice idea. > So, maybe they buy the premade bulbs. Just add a microwave oven > and stir! Sounds like a recipe. Sounds nice. May only be able to be sold as part of a kit with strong warning statements. Consider the similarities to HTI, HMI, and short-arc/compact source mercury and mercury-xenon bulbs. Of course, the pressure may not be very high and possibly not much UV gets through sulfur vapor, and maybe lack of electrical connections makes the construction a bit simpler and sturdier, and there is nothing toxic or corrosive (at room temperature) inside. This makes them a bit safer, but the Consumer Product Safety Commission might not let anyone sell them where Joe Sixpack would buy them. However, I like the idea of somebody selling them in kits or through mail-order. I would probably buy one. I would probably put it in my microwave oven and see what happens (Goggles on face, fire extinguisher in hand?). If nothing breaks, I might trash-pick a microwave oven or buy the cheapest junky one, take it apart, and build a working sulfur lamp. Yes, I like your idea. Probably has to wait until sulfur bulbs are produced in great enough quantities that some could be diverted to hobbyists, or spare bulbs become available from whoever sells replacement bulbs (I doubt they last absolutely forever). > So, take the envelope from a burned out HMI bulb (hey, talk about warnings!), > back fill with sulfur/argon or whatever. I have a couple of vacuum pumps > that would probably be good enough. The tough part would be the fire > extinguisher. :-) Can't do this with anything that has or had electrodes. Hot sulfur and sulfur vapor are corrosive to most metals. Got me thinking however... If you take a quartz tube and heat one end, you should be able to squeeze it shut. This will need oxy-something. No torch using any combination of air and propane or MAPP gas seems to be hot enough. Quartz takes at least 1600 Celsius or more to be worked. I tried this with some tubing from a toaster oven. After closing one end, go over the end with the flame and melt it somewhat to be sure it is closed. After that, do the same with the other end. If the proper fill gas pressure (or one that we can make work) is atmospheric pressure (as measured when the quartz is being worked), then WE ARE IN LUCK. Just blow gas through the tube before closing it off. Get a bit of sulfur in there first. Try to work the quartz such that its overall temperature distribution makes the gas pressure the same as when you anneal the darn thing afterwards. Annealing requires baking the bulb for something like a day at 1140 Celsius or a bit more, with the gas inside at atmospheric pressure. (Or match bulb and oven pressures.) Or, push your luck and operate the bulb without annealing. Quartz has very nearly zero thermal expansion, so an unannealed bulb just might not explode. If the fill gas must be at some odd pressure, then one must seal both ends of the bulb, poke a hole in it, and attach a hollow stem to it. One of us will have to look up how HMI or similar bulbs are made. Then comes the time to anneal it, then dump in some sulfur, then vacuum, gas, and seal and pinch off the stem (easier below atmospheric pressure than above). Since there is no metal, we don't have to worry about corrosion by contaminants such as oxygen or water vapor. Traces of either of these would be a big problem in bulbs with metal parts inside. However, these DO impair starting, and should be minimized. > Maybe someday. Seems interesting. I have always wanted to build my own high intensity discharge bulb, although most of my life I thought in terms of mercury vapor to do this. *********** LINKS TO OTHER SITES *********** Another sulfur lamp FAQ at http://www.sulfurlamp.com/index.htm **************** REFERENCES **************** (In no particular order.) 1. "Sulfur Lighting: Emerging Technology Could Challenge HID Light Sources," E Source Tech Update 94-7, September 1994. Call 303-440-8500. 2. "Electrodeless Lamps: The Next Generation," Lighting Futures vol. 1, number 1, May/June 1995, Lighting Research Center. Call 518-276-8716. 3. "A Light to Replace Hundreds of Bulbs", by John Holusha, New York Times, 10/26/94. 4. "A New Kind of Illumination That Burns Brightly, but Not Out", by Curt Suplee, Washington Post, 10/24/94. 5. "A Quick Look at the Sulfur Lamp", by the Lighting Design Lab. 6. "Energy Department Brings Dazzling Bulb to Light", by Curt Suplee, Washington Post, 10/21/94. 7. "DOE Unveils Revolutionary 21rst Century Lighting Technology", a press release by Hope Williams and Keith Holloway, U.S. DOE. 8. "DOE Unveils New Lighting Technology", from Femp Focus, Dec. 1994. 9. Journal of Illuminating Engineering Society vol. 26 number 1 Winter 1997 Two papers written by authors affiliated with Fusion Lighting, Inc. -- end V1.02 -- Back up to Don's Lighting Page. Back up to Don's Home Page. From carl at stopp.se Thu Feb 18 09:44:58 2010 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:44:58 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Stereoscopic Red - Avid - FCP - Resolve Message-ID: Hi all I need some help brainstorming about a workflow. Shoot StereoScopic 3D with Red Edit Avid or FCP in 3D Export EDL's Grade in Resolve in 3D If anyone are interested to give me a hand, please contact me off list. /carl carl at stopp.se /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From rob at colorist.org Thu Feb 18 18:50:59 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:50:59 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: JOB OFFER - COLORIST MANILA References: <20100217163024.23825.2051492783.swift@admin.utopiapeople.se> Message-ID: <5262D87F-C962-4B16-9B53-8D5D677F781B@colorist.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: Utopia People > Date: February 17, 2010 8:30:01 AM PST > To: rob at colorist.org > Subject: JOB OFFER - COLORIST MANILA > Reply-To: Utopia People > > Hi, > > We are recruting a Colorist for one of the most happening Post, > Design and Visual Effects Studios in Manila, The Philippines. This > is a very creative work place that delivers cutting edge work for > advertising, film, broadcast and the internet industries. > > This is a great opportunity for someone that has previous > experience, a minimum of one year, but is still looking to grow and > enjoys working as a team. We are looking for someone with a college > degree, preferably in multi-media or photography. If you have a > lighting background it is considered a plus. > > Your English must be fluent, written and spoken. > The right candidate should be familiar with Apple Color with Eclipse > Control Surface and Nucoda Film Master. > > The contract is for a minimum of one year, starting in May 2010. > Apartment and work permit is provided. > Salary: USD 6K/month net > > TO APPLY: > If you are interested please email job at utopiapeople.com before Feb > 23 at 12:00 CET (the sooner we can get your application the better), > marking your email with "Colorist Manila" Please write a short > justification of why you are the right candidate for our client and > your ability to relocate. > We will notify you if you are shortlisted. Please ensure that your > resume is updated at www.utopiapeople.com and upload your reel at www.theshowreel.tv > . -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From steve at veralith.com Fri Feb 19 17:17:48 2010 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:17:48 -0600 Subject: [Tig] dailies Message-ID: For those doing dailies for film or TV, what are the software and hardware products that are getting used to get 35mm film, RED, ARRI, and various HD flavors to dailies? I'm assuming 35mm is going from telecine through basic video channels to either low-cost videotape (DVCAM, etc.) or through a computer with video card direct to hard drive as Quicktime or MXF? Avid used to have telecine software built-in to Symphony for direct import, is that still on the most recent hardware? It's on my ancient Symphony. Is anyone actually using it? What about RED or ARRI or the other file- based cameras? How are you converting that? With RED Rocket and RED software? Gamma and Density? And the HD camera footage is probably going straight from the master tape as a dub to lower end tape or through a computer with video card to a hard drive? Anyone doing dailies from HD that has been recorded straight to an HDD or some other tapeless technology? XDCAM/P2? From steve at veralith.com Fri Feb 19 18:56:59 2010 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:56:59 -0600 Subject: [Tig] dailies In-Reply-To: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca> References: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com> Thanks for some good info. I am talking about dailies and off-line editing, so shooting on HDCAM SR and then transferring to Bluray for producers,etc and DVCAM for the off-line editors and sound folks seems to be the way it would go, but I have no experience, which is why I asked the question. Basically I'd think that just because you have a high-end acquisition format, you wouldn't use that through the entire workflow. So I was looking for what workflows and products are used to get the ACQUISITION format to more of a WORKING format. For example HDCAM SR to DVCAM or 35mm OCN through telecine directly to Prores on a hard drive (obviously with D5 or HDCAM SR at the same time for conform/archival). Your answer was very useful. Thanks. I know this is the TELECINE list, but I figured that really it's colorists and people who may touch dailies through some other method than telecine. On Feb 19, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Going to another tape would seem to be a total waste of time -- but > I have heard of some networks ingesting HD source to DBeta or BetaSX > and so on, then digitizing and/or editing tape to tape (!) in a News/ > Online from there. From ted at tedlangdell.com Sat Feb 20 14:36:26 2010 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Tig] "Memory Colors"--Link to ProLost blog post by Stu Maschwitz Message-ID: Hope everyone's having a good Saturday... Orphanage co-founder, filmmaker Stu Maschwitz has an interesting post on his blog about "Memory Colors" and the need to preserve them during CC. http://prolost.com/blog/2010/2/15/memory-colors.html Someone replying mentions Semiotics, the study of how meaning is created through various means. (Color is certainly one of them.) There's a resource center for Semiotics, among other related sites on- line: http://www.semioticon.com/ Outdoor colors in Danbury, CT this morning are influenced by sky-lit blue and cloud-filtered sunlight, with occasional transitions to direct sunlight. Could make for an interesting time en-suite trying to deal with material shot this morning, as the clouds move along overhead. Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13 ted at flashscan8.us The flashscanHD/flashtransfer "West to California Tour" Philadelphia area Feb. 20-23 Get details at flashscan8.us From bobfesta at mac.com Sat Feb 20 21:42:31 2010 From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:42:31 -0800 Subject: [Tig] John Blue Message-ID: Engineer John Blue, can you please contact me off list. ________________________________ Bob Festa 310 401-2220 New Hat 1819 Colorado Ave SM CA newhat.tv From rob at colorist.org Mon Feb 22 05:00:30 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:00:30 -0800 Subject: [Tig] "Memory Colors"--Link to ProLost blog post by Stu Maschwitz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38E466D9-754C-460C-8281-F338B0CD8901@colorist.org> On Feb 20, 2010, at 6:36 AM, Ted Langdell wrote: > Orphanage co-founder, filmmaker Stu Maschwitz has an interesting > post on his blog about "Memory Colors" and the need to preserve them > during CC. > > http://prolost.com/blog/2010/2/15/memory-colors.html It's an interesting exposition he's made. I think most colorists with a few years under the belt know these things without having to refer to the theory. It's like musicians who, after a few years playing, hear harmony without having to study it. The optical illusion of the perception of shades of gray is well done in the version he lists; it has been shown many times before in other incarnations. > Someone replying mentions Semiotics, the study of how meaning is > created through various means. (Color is certainly one of them.) Well there is semantics, and semiotics... Umberto Eco is my favorite exponent of semiotics. He had a lot of fun (not :) ) with his take on The DaVinci Code. > Outdoor colors in Danbury, CT this morning are influenced by sky-lit > blue and cloud-filtered sunlight, with occasional transitions to > direct sunlight. Could make for an interesting time en-suite trying > to deal with material shot this morning, as the clouds move along > overhead. One challenge colorists often face in climes foreign to Southern California is this habit clouds have of moving. Exposure, color balance, and in the case of film, reciprocity, change. The quality of sunlight changes according to latitude and season.. Couple those changes with camera settings (and in the case of film, stock types) and things get entertaining. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com Tue Feb 23 03:27:40 2010 From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:27:40 -0800 Subject: [Tig] dailies In-Reply-To: <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com> References: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca> <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com> Message-ID: <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com> I won't get into hardware/software (because not fully aware of all the subsystems involved) but will make some observations... Double-sound is still the norm and will continue to be so. At some point you have to sync picture and sound. "Telecine" dailies is still often the most efficient place to do this (tape/film source). Tape-based shows also are very much interested in having reels made that are not the camera negative. As well as production not wanting to see all the material, only circle takes. So it is very common to make new tapes with new timecode of sync'd circle takes only. The benefit of this process is that it is already setup for ALE/FLX production as well as visual notation of problems in production - soft focus, boom in shot, etc... Basically the same as film based productions. These shows tend to still be cut in SD with DVCAM being the standard deliverable. We also continue to use Avid MST systems for OMFI-based SD (14:1) productions as this is tied directly into the telecine process. Additions to this process depend on the camera, F35/Genesis/Viper the new tape (can't recall terminology at the moment) will untouched by the dailies colorist. DVCAM (or other working tape) will have LUTs applied or will have a correction applied (or combo of both). The biggest problem I see for HD offline is that there are no current existing systems that can replicate this baseband workflow. The digitize is always a secondary/additional step for FCP/Avid. MTI Control Dailies may have the ability to create offline media, not really sure. As well as Bones, but as I am aware the benefits of those systems is their (entire) file-based workflows. I would love to hear how others may be approaching this problem. File-based shows, depending on format may follow the above process if a playback system (with RS422) is available (S.two via their own playback or DDR [Spectaoft Rave]). Or if second unit and show is tape based may just layoff to tape (SR/D5) and start back at the telecine list process or a deliverable (DVCAM, offline media, etc) is made. Sometimes it is just used for the online session. Red is a different process entirely bit for editorial biggest issue is that is far easier to work in HD for the offline edit. Due to Reds rapid deploymment of camera firmware and software compatibility issues, I feel that using their software is the best way of dealing with new "color science", etc... Last year this was Red Rushes, Red Alert. Now we have RedCineX (RocketCineX) with Red Rocket hardware. While third party developers are still working around the SDK. RedCineX and the Red Rocket are on their to actually making dealing with the Red in post useable. With a Tangent Wave, Red Rocket and Red/ RocketCineX with it's Lift/Gamma/Gain controls, it's possible to have a dailies colorist (instead of a data manager or DIT) do a color pass before editorial gets the footage. More later or questions if asked, but this is being written on my iPhone. Erik Hansen Technical Supervisor Modern VideoFilm Datalab/Digital Media/VOD Erik 323-316-3731 --- If you understand everything, you must be misinformed. - Proverb, (Japanese) On Feb 19, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Steve Hullfish wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > Thanks for some good info. > > I am talking about dailies and off-line editing, so shooting on > HDCAM SR and then transferring to Bluray for producers,etc and DVCAM > for the off-line editors and sound folks seems to be the way it > would go, but I have no experience, which is why I asked the > question. Basically I'd think that just because you have a high-end > acquisition format, you wouldn't use that through the entire > workflow. So I was looking for what workflows and products are used > to get the ACQUISITION format to more of a WORKING format. For > example HDCAM SR to DVCAM or 35mm OCN through telecine directly to > Prores on a hard drive (obviously with D5 or HDCAM SR at the same > time for conform/archival). Your answer was very useful. Thanks. > > I know this is the TELECINE list, but I figured that really it's > colorists and people who may touch dailies through some other method > than telecine. > > On Feb 19, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > >> Going to another tape would seem to be a total waste of time -- but >> I have heard of some networks ingesting HD source to DBeta or >> BetaSX and so on, then digitizing and/or editing tape to tape (!) >> in a News/Online from there. > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From somearsehole at hotmail.com Mon Feb 22 17:50:57 2010 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:50:57 +0000 Subject: [Tig] "Memory Colors"--Link to ProLost blog post by Stu Maschwitz In-Reply-To: <38E466D9-754C-460C-8281-F338B0CD8901@colorist.org> References: , <38E466D9-754C-460C-8281-F338B0CD8901@colorist.org> Message-ID: > It's an interesting exposition he's made. I think most colorists with > a few years under the belt know these things without having to refer > to the theory. Maybe so but a valuable blog entry nonetheless. I find it's not colourists or postproduction people one has to explain this stuff to but clients. They often don't really understand why they are in this fancy darkened room with a sofa. (Or much else for that matter) ... One oscar winning production I worked on the producer had actually asked 'Is grading important?' .... (ie: 'Do i really have to spend money on THAT as well?!') So I would recommend printing up a blog entry like this and pinning up in whatever area you shunt clients through before the session begins - an accessible little article that can be understood even by those with brains inversely proportional to the size of their heads. A while back there was a thread about the 'G.A.S.P!' button that some of us have no doubt incorporated into our suites. Something that I failed to bring up in my comments on that thread was that: 'It helps the client understand what they are paying for'. Images are images and most people accept them as being what they are - until you see how much better it can look. Put another way: You can't sell gold for half price if nobody knows what it is. So for a greater understanding of the work we all do, and thus a more appreciative client - I highly commend blog entries like S.M.'s and thank T.L. for the posting. Matt Willis-Jones Oslo Creative Director / Post Production Artist _________________________________________________________________ We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/ From hurkman at me.com Tue Feb 23 19:40:36 2010 From: hurkman at me.com (Alexis Van Hurkman) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:40:36 -0500 Subject: [Tig] "Memory Colors"--Link to ProLost blog post by Stu Maschwitz In-Reply-To: References: <38E466D9-754C-460C-8281-F338B0CD8901@colorist.org> Message-ID: <48AD310D-E2A8-43DA-9B32-BB5D0C8010AD@me.com> On Feb 22, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Matt W-J wrote: >> It's an interesting exposition he's made. I think most colorists with >> a few years under the belt know these things without having to refer >> to the theory. > > Maybe so but a valuable blog entry nonetheless. I find it's not colourists or postproduction people one has to explain this stuff to but clients. They often don't really understand why they are in this fancy darkened room with a sofa. (Or much else for that matter) ... One oscar winning production I worked on the producer had actually asked 'Is grading important?' .... (ie: 'Do i really have to spend money on THAT as well?!') > So I would recommend printing up a blog entry like this and pinning up in whatever area you shunt clients through before the session begins - an accessible little article that can be understood even by those with brains inversely proportional to the size of their heads. > A while back there was a thread about the 'G.A.S.P!' button that some of us have no doubt incorporated into our suites. Something that I failed to bring up in my comments on that thread was that: 'It helps the client understand what they are paying for'. Images are images and most people accept them as being what they are - until you see how much better it can look. > Put another way: You can't sell gold for half price if nobody knows what it is. > So for a greater understanding of the work we all do, and thus a more appreciative client - I highly commend blog entries like S.M.'s and thank T.L. for the posting. > Matt Willis-Jones Oslo Creative Director / Post Production Artist I agree that Stu's blog entry is a nice overview of the topic of memory colors. Three years ago I stumbled upon a body of research in the imaging science world on memory colors while researching the IPT color space for another writing project, and it's led me on a long and interesting road of research papers surrounding the subject of audience color preference and color correction decision-making. There's a great article identified as having been presented at the IS&T/SID Twelfth Color Imaging Conference (coauthored by Clotilde Boust, and too many others to list) titled "Does an Expert Use Memory Colors to Adjust Images," citing experiments tracking how a number of professional photoshop artists in controlled environments identify which regions of a series of images to isolate for specific correction, and the direction in which the colors were adjusted. Correlating data from their work on four specific images, consistent preferences for the color of skin, foliage, and sky were found to overlap, with all the test subjects adjustments pushing those colors into the same directions when their individual adjustments were plotted with vectors on a u'v' graph. It's an interesting paper. Digging deeper, I found a great study by C. J. Bartleson, in the January 1960 issue of the Journal of the Optical Society of America, titled "Memory Colors of Familiar Objects." The goal of that study was to identify, based on fifty observers (with percentages of "technical" and "nontechnical" people alike), what colors were most consistently associated with specific, highly familiar objects (I'm paraphrasing poorly). This paper found 10 objects with consistent preferences across the group (plotted as a close cloud of points on a hue vs. chroma graph) that includes Red Brick, Green Grass, Dry Grass, Blue Sky, Flesh, Tan Flesh, Green Foliage, Evergreens, Inland Soil, and Beach Sand. A long list! The earliest paper I found related to this subject is by J. P. Guilford, from the December 1959 American Journal of Psychology, "A System of Color Preferences," testing 40 observers (20 men, 20 women) on their general preferences of colors, irrespective of object associations. Color chips were rated from 0="most unpleasant imaginable" to 10="most pleasant imaginable." I've not digested the entire article, but while the tested subjects make it very region specific (all subjects were in Nebraska), I've been curious to see if the paper identifies any preferences I've observed in my own client sessions. I'd also be curious to see if an identical study done today would reveal changes in color preference over time (in Nebraska). This is a topic I've been researching for an upcoming book I'm writing on color correction, in which I'm planning on siting these sources and others to try and provide a framework for discussing why we make the kinds of adjustments we do. As Rob mentioned, so much of the professional colorist's work is intuitive, based on years of experience grading many programs for lots of different clients. Personally, I find that it's comforting to see a body of research that investigates how our audience perceives the image, and that backs up many of the things we do every day. I also think it's extremely useful as a starting point for discussing how to start going about making color adjustments with people who are new to color correction, and it's a nice rationale to offer to clients that want a specific adjustment made that one might consider ill-advised. -Alexis ps. I used a draft of this email as the starting point for an even longer blog entry about academic research surrounding memory colors. Anyone interested in these papers or more should go there, I've provided links to all the papers I mention (http://vanhurkman.com/wordpress/?p=58). Many are freely available on the web, some require purchase. ______________________________________________________________________ www.alexisvanhurkman.com | www.correctionforcolor.com | 646-620-6218 From rob at cinelab.com Tue Feb 23 17:43:21 2010 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:43:21 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com> References: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca> <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com> <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com> Message-ID: <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> HI All Dumb 888-DUI question... where are the frame-up / frame-down controls on it? The DaVinci is connected to a Rank.... -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com From rob at cinelab.com Tue Feb 23 20:42:53 2010 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:42:53 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: References: , <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca>, <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com>, <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com>, <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> Message-ID: On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:51 PM, james yazbeck wrote: > In the TK pan menu. There there be on top in the same dials as the PEC controls when you hit tk pan. > Jim Yazbeck. Not the Digital Deflection scan controls I am looking for the Servo Frame-Up / Frame-Down buttons like on the local control panel... -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Feb 23 22:36:33 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:36:33 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: References: , <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca>, <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com>, <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com>, <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <08129DE9-130B-4A87-B04D-1D9B9112CAD1@colorist.org> On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Robert Houllahan wrote: > Not the Digital Deflection scan controls I am looking for the Servo > Frame-Up / Frame-Down buttons like on the local control panel... I'm trying to remember, I think there's a FRAME button on the panel somewhere that when you press, it remembers the keypress and then you use the FWD/REV keys (they have arrows on them?) to nudge the frame up or down. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jfmann at optimum.net Tue Feb 23 22:56:04 2010 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:56:04 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> References: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca> <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com> <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com> <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <003a01cab4db$61095700$231c0500$@net> Hi Robert, It has been a long time, for me, but try playing in the telecine then hitting the "frame" key then "I think" it is the Fast-forward and fast-reverse keys. or maybe it is the step forward and step-back keys? Good Luck, Jim -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Robert Houllahan Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:43 PM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2009. Company 3 supports the TIG. ==== HI All Dumb 888-DUI question... where are the frame-up / frame-down controls on it? The DaVinci is connected to a Rank.... -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From mbitetti at aol.com Tue Feb 23 23:06:32 2010 From: mbitetti at aol.com (mbitetti at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:06:32 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <003a01cab4db$61095700$231c0500$@net> References: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca><441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com><34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com><91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> <003a01cab4db$61095700$231c0500$@net> Message-ID: <8CC82F3F976DAF8-602C-432C@webmail-m070.sysops.aol.com> That's what I remember too: Frame button then step fwd, step rev to adjust. Mike Bitetti -----Original Message----- From: Jim Mann To: 'Robert Houllahan' ; 'Telecine Internet Group' Sent: Tue, Feb 23, 2010 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 030 subscribers in February 2009. ompany 3 supports the TIG. === Hi Robert, t has been a long time, for me, but try playing in the telecine then hitting he "frame" key then "I think" it is the Fast-forward and fast-reverse keys. or aybe it is the step forward and step-back keys? ood Luck, im -----Original Message----- rom: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of obert Houllahan ent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:43 PM o: Telecine Internet Group ubject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 030 subscribers in February 2009. ompany 3 supports the TIG. === HI All Dumb 888-DUI question... where are the frame-up / frame-down controls on it? The aVinci is connected to a Rank.... -Rob- Robert Houllahan ob at cinelab.com olorist-Director ww.cinelab.com _______________________________________________ ttp://reels.colorist.org ttp://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 ______________________________________________ ttp://reels.colorist.org ttp://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Tue Feb 23 23:09:41 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:09:41 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <003a01cab4db$61095700$231c0500$@net> References: <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca> <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com> <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com> <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> <003a01cab4db$61095700$231c0500$@net> Message-ID: <537C988A-FA30-41EE-B45F-3F6A47C61689@colorist.org> On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Jim Mann wrote: > the "frame" key then "I think" it is the Fast-forward and fast- > reverse keys. or maybe it is the step forward and step-back keys? I think you're right Jim, it's the step-fwd and step-back. To get perspective on the question I had to step back from it for a moment. There was at least one undocumented keyboard feature (might even call it a cheat) that Bruce Graham showed me long long ago in the time of the ... Classic? (which of course wasn't known as the Classic then).. which also works on successive DaVinci models: While in Scroll mode and scrolled to a particular place in the list, you can plug in a color to that event by hitting one of the color scratchpad mem keys. Simple and fast, and as part of a macro it can make a sequenced repeating list easy to maintain. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Craig.Dingwall at nfsa.gov.au Tue Feb 23 23:40:31 2010 From: Craig.Dingwall at nfsa.gov.au (Craig Dingwall) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:40:31 +1100 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <537C988A-FA30-41EE-B45F-3F6A47C61689@colorist.org> Message-ID: Hi all, I have a PDF of the manual if that will assist. Let me know if you wnat it emailed. Thanks. From jfmann at optimum.net Wed Feb 24 00:23:50 2010 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:23:50 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: References: <537C988A-FA30-41EE-B45F-3F6A47C61689@colorist.org> Message-ID: <000301cab4e7$a4055b60$ec101220$@net> Hi Craig, I searched the DUI manual for keywords, but I could not find where it is documented. Jim Mann Freelance Colorist http://colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann C.516-250-0909 colorist444 at hotmail.com From: Craig Dingwall [mailto:Craig.Dingwall at nfsa.gov.au] Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:41 PM To: Rob Lingelbach Cc: Jim Mann; 'Telecine Internet Group'; tig-bounces at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question Hi all, I have a PDF of the manual if that will assist. Let me know if you wnat it emailed. Thanks. From richerling at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 00:59:27 2010 From: richerling at gmail.com (Ricardo H.) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:59:27 -0300 Subject: [Tig] devices app color Message-ID: <59806d301002231659h51866088p15d7bd0b4cf61ad1@mail.gmail.com> I wonder if anyone has used the Euphonix applied to apple color, and how her performance goals? which behaves better Tangent wave or Euphonix? RICARDO HERLING richerling at gmail.com colorist Lutcolor + 55 11 81493006 From rob at cinelab.com Wed Feb 24 02:08:33 2010 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:08:33 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <000301cab4e7$a4055b60$ec101220$@net> References: <537C988A-FA30-41EE-B45F-3F6A47C61689@colorist.org> <000301cab4e7$a4055b60$ec101220$@net> Message-ID: <08B96586-FE04-4575-99DF-5BDC4EB08F4C@cinelab.com> Dwaine gave me the manual but I could not find this in it... Thanks for all of the info i will try it out tomorrow, BTW I have original serial panels not network or 2K panels. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com From dwainem at pacbell.net Wed Feb 24 03:11:27 2010 From: dwainem at pacbell.net (Dwaine Maggart) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:11:27 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <08B96586-FE04-4575-99DF-5BDC4EB08F4C@cinelab.com> References: <537C988A-FA30-41EE-B45F-3F6A47C61689@colorist.org><000301cab4e7$a4055b60$ec101220$@net> <08B96586-FE04-4575-99DF-5BDC4EB08F4C@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <1238FDDBF3D3446EBB1091827FCCE680@dmduodell> >From the non-dui 888 manual, page 175, applicable to serial style control panels: FRAMING To activate FRAMING mode, place the telecine in play and select [FRAME] in the machine control key cluster. Then press either [STEP] key to frame up or down. The step keys can be held down for continuous framing in one direction or the other. >From the dui manual, page 6, applicable to network style panels: [Frame Adjust] has multiple functions: to rack the frame bar on telecines to adjust the field in Tape to Tape mode Regards, Dwaine -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Robert Houllahan Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 6:09 PM To: Jim Mann Cc: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2009. Company 3 supports the TIG. ==== Dwaine gave me the manual but I could not find this in it... Thanks for all of the info i will try it out tomorrow, BTW I have original serial panels not network or 2K panels. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Feb 24 05:07:59 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:07:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup Message-ID: Some of you may recall that I complained about the black levels of a few ABC drama programs at the beginning of this TV season. I complained about "moon heads" and dark eye sockets. This varied depending on episode. My Samsung DLP TV is connected to a DISH Network receiver box via HDMI (actually a HDMI to DVI cable plus a DVI to HDMI adaptor back to HDMI). I don't have a HDMI calibration source so I set black level by eye based on the darkest features in a scene (e.g. threads on a black suit). The black level on my TV has been variable with some days appearing really good and some days excessively dark. Today I noticed something interesting in a Starz network graphic (a brilliant sunset). Half of the video content was missing (clipped) unless I turned the black level all the way to 100%, at which the overall image was brighter than it should be, but I could see all of it (0% setup?). I also noticed that I had the black level set to around 38% (!) and that program content was darker than it should be (dark content smashed to black), but looked as expected (except for the Stars graphic) at 50%. It seems that there is some combination of user error (me) combined with possible hardware/firmware issues, combined with likely video content setup problems from the source. I have HDMI, component, and S-video cables all connected from the DISH box to the TV and the image looks the same for all these inputs, including the Starz network graphic. At this point I am really confused and don't know what to blame or what to trust. Any advice or comments? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at cinelab.com Wed Feb 24 04:52:46 2010 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:52:46 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <4B84A48E.4080101@rogers.com> References: , <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca>, <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com>, <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com>, <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> <4B84A48E.4080101@rogers.com> Message-ID: > If you have Meta Speed, I would leave servo framing at "0" and make sure the run forward and run reverse are set in Meta Speed. Then if you want to change the framing you use the deflection tilt to re position on still frame, and it will remain in that position during run. > I have Jim conditioned. "Always keep the framing at zero!!!" :) > If you want details on how I set it up let me know. Thanks I have my Copernicus machine setup with the metaspeed at '0' everything nice nice like, the 888DUI system is still not completely hooked up so I don't have a easily accessible terminal ( I have not figured out the hookup to term on the o2) and the metaspeed remote panel is not hooked up yet either. I have the metaspeed terminal on the Keylink computer right now so I really need to do some setup.. I just end up setting framing locally now when I restart the machine... -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Colorist-Director www.cinelab.com From wgiovanella at rogers.com Wed Feb 24 04:01:18 2010 From: wgiovanella at rogers.com (Wilf Giovanella) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:01:18 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: References: , <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca>, <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com>, <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com>, <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <4B84A48E.4080101@rogers.com> Robert Houllahan wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > > On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:51 PM, james yazbeck wrote: > > >> In the TK pan menu. There there be on top in the same dials as the PEC controls when you hit tk pan. >> Jim Yazbeck. >> > > Not the Digital Deflection scan controls I am looking for the Servo Frame-Up / Frame-Down buttons like on the local control panel... > > -Rob- > > Robert Houllahan > rob at cinelab.com > Colorist-Director > www.cinelab.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 If you have Meta Speed, I would leave servo framing at "0" and make sure the run forward and run reverse are set in Meta Speed. Then if you want to change the framing you use the deflection tilt to re position on still frame, and it will remain in that position during run. I have Jim conditioned. "Always keep the framing at zero!!!" :) If you want details on how I set it up let me know. Wilf Giovanella From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Feb 24 15:43:53 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:43:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize Message-ID: The article at http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma.html provides a facinating description of why resizing in linear-light can be important in order to achieve a correct result. GraphicsMagick does not do this by default, but explicit gamma correction steps "cure" the problem: gm convert gamma_dalai_lama_gray.jpg -gamma 0.45 -resize 50% -gamma 2.2 resized.jpg Thoughts? Bob From bierbaum at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 24 15:40:48 2010 From: bierbaum at bellsouth.net (Clark E Bierbaum) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:40:48 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: References: , <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca>, <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com>, <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com>, <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> <4B84A48E.4080101@rogers.com> Message-ID: <017B6C81-73C4-4246-91B9-8BA65114498A@bellsouth.net> I found it easiest to run a terminal program on a cheap PC (old mac duo in my case) and have it beside my panels at all times. Just hook to the vt102 (or similarly labeled connection on the meta speed board.) I spent a lot of time getting the initial framing correct - see the manual, but then had no problems for months (on a Y front.) Write down those settings! Good Luck! Clark Clark E. Bierbaum President Garnet Development, Incorporated 704-488-2448 clark at garnetdev.com Charlotte, NC On Feb 23, 2010, at 11:52 PM, Robert Houllahan wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > >> If you have Meta Speed, I would leave servo framing at "0" and >> make sure the run forward and run reverse are set in Meta Speed. >> Then if you want to change the framing you use the deflection tilt >> to re position on still frame, and it will remain in that position >> during run. >> I have Jim conditioned. "Always keep the framing at zero!!!" :) >> If you want details on how I set it up let me know. > > Thanks > > I have my Copernicus machine setup with the metaspeed at '0' > everything nice nice like, the 888DUI system is still not > completely hooked up so I don't have a easily accessible terminal > ( I have not figured out the hookup to term on the o2) and the > metaspeed remote panel is not hooked up yet either. > > I have the metaspeed terminal on the Keylink computer right now so > I really need to do some setup.. I just end up setting framing > locally now when I restart the machine... > > -Rob- > > Robert Houllahan > rob at cinelab.com > Colorist-Director > www.cinelab.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From jpo at prestodigital.ca Wed Feb 24 16:10:01 2010 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:10:01 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D20AE59-3F8A-4BCF-AE51-3954F16376D8@prestodigital.ca> > > The black level on my TV has been variable with some days appearing > really good and some days excessively dark. And of course some of these sets are helpfully 'dynamic'. (Not really helpful, actually.) Sounds like it might be fun to do a little "Stereo Test and Demonstration" record (test-DVD) that has bars with pluge, a stepped greyscale or sawtooth, the kind of signals that a good TSG used to be able to supply. See what happens to the display with varying levels of APL on fades to black/white, a white field on a black background... that sort of thing. I expect the results and performance will likely be quite gruesome. And maybe go through the "advanced" menu settings to see if there are interventions going on that you really don't want. Sony's dynamic sharpness and (some ridiculously consumerish-named) "enhancements" were particularly bad --especially on the Vega series. Remember all consumer electronics are designed to be obsolete and thrown in the trash in a 6-24 month cycle. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From lyris1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 13:00:54 2010 From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:00:54 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob, just to make sure, you don't have any of the Dynamic Contrast controls that TVs ship with turned on, do you? -David Mackenzie www.davidmackenzie.me On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 5:07 AM, Bob Friesenhahn < bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > Some of you may recall that I complained about the black levels of a few > ABC drama programs at the beginning of this TV season. I complained about > "moon heads" and dark eye sockets. This varied depending on episode. My > Samsung DLP TV is connected to a DISH Network receiver box via HDMI > (actually a HDMI to DVI cable plus a DVI to HDMI adaptor back to HDMI). I > don't have a HDMI calibration source so I set black level by eye based on > the darkest features in a scene (e.g. threads on a black suit). > > The black level on my TV has been variable with some days appearing really > good and some days excessively dark. Today I noticed something interesting > in a Starz network graphic (a brilliant sunset). Half of the video content > was missing (clipped) unless I turned the black level all the way to 100%, > at which the overall image was brighter than it should be, but I could see > all of it (0% setup?). I also noticed that I had the black level set to > around 38% (!) and that program content was darker than it should be (dark > content smashed to black), but looked as expected (except for the Stars > graphic) at 50%. It seems that there is some combination of user error (me) > combined with possible hardware/firmware issues, combined with likely video > content setup problems from the source. > > I have HDMI, component, and S-video cables all connected from the DISH box > to the TV and the image looks the same for all these inputs, including the > Starz network graphic. > > At this point I am really confused and don't know what to blame or what to > trust. Any advice or comments? > > Bob > -- > Bob Friesenhahn > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From owen at ywwg.com Wed Feb 24 17:48:12 2010 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:48:12 -0500 Subject: [Tig] devices app color In-Reply-To: <59806d301002231659h51866088p15d7bd0b4cf61ad1@mail.gmail.com> References: <59806d301002231659h51866088p15d7bd0b4cf61ad1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1267033692.3957.1017.camel@ywwg> Scott Simmons (twitter @editblog) made a blog post on just this subject: http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/ssimmons/story/first_impressions_of_the_euphonix_mc_color/ Owen Williams On Tue, 2010-02-23 at 21:59 -0300, Ricardo H. wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > I wonder if anyone has used the Euphonix applied to apple > color, and how her performance goals? > which behaves better Tangent wave or Euphonix? > > > > RICARDO HERLING > richerling at gmail.com > colorist > Lutcolor > + 55 11 81493006 > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From somearsehole at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 10:26:50 2010 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:26:50 +0000 Subject: [Tig] a treat Message-ID: It's not often one finds something that knocks the ol' socks off. Rarer still that it might be (shudder) CG. but.. behold.... http://vimeo.com/7809605 (i think this just about passes as being relevant to TIG... the colour manipulation verges on pure poetry) Matt Willis-JonesOsloCreative Director / Post Production Artist _________________________________________________________________ Tell us your greatest, weirdest and funniest Hotmail stories http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/ From somearsehole at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 10:22:39 2010 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:22:39 +0000 Subject: [Tig] "Memory Colors"--Link to ProLost blog post by Stu Maschwitz In-Reply-To: <48AD310D-E2A8-43DA-9B32-BB5D0C8010AD@me.com> References: , <38E466D9-754C-460C-8281-F338B0CD8901@colorist.org>, , <48AD310D-E2A8-43DA-9B32-BB5D0C8010AD@me.com> Message-ID: 0="most unpleasant imaginable" to 10="most pleasant imaginable." ha ha ha wow i'll have to add that to the control panel ... and of course a setting that goes up to '11'.ps: great mail Matt Willis-JonesOsloCreative Director / Post Production Artist. _________________________________________________________________ Send us your Hotmail stories and be featured in our newsletter http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/195013117/direct/01/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Feb 24 18:05:07 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:05:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, David Mackenzie wrote: > Bob, just to make sure, you don't have any of the Dynamic Contrast > controls that TVs ship with turned on, do you? Unfortunately, with this model of Samsung TV it is not possible to turn off the dNIE crap contrast enhancement mode without going into the service menu and entering an undocumented hex code. I don't know how to do that. The so called contrast-enhancement surely causes issues, and the set's demo mode shows a clear lie in that the supposed unenhanced section obviously has a low-pass filter applied. When I previously had this TV professionally calibrated, the calibration guy did know how to turn off the contrast enhancement and the picture was fantastic and stable. Since then, the DLP light engine was replaced on this set and the calibration settings were necessarily lost. It is very difficult to find ISF-certified calibrators willing to come out and calibrate a display that they did not sell, and especially since most home theater vendors have now gone out of business. I will try to do so again. Without a proper pluge via HDMI (why do set top boxes not include this?), with automatic contrast "enhancement" still enabled in the set, and with considerable black level detail still existing in some video well below the reference black-point, it is not clear how a consumer is supposed to adjust their TV for proper viewing. The TV does still operate pretty well with DVDs and have done extensive testing of it with various test patterns from the Digital Video Essentials DVD. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Feb 24 18:14:46 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:14:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: <0D20AE59-3F8A-4BCF-AE51-3954F16376D8@prestodigital.ca> References: <0D20AE59-3F8A-4BCF-AE51-3954F16376D8@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Joe Owens wrote: > > Remember all consumer electronics are designed to be obsolete and thrown in > the trash in a 6-24 month cycle. Yes, this is true. Unfortunately, I am just not seeing any suitable replacement on the market for a 71" DLP TV. Now almost everything is severely cost reduced small (to me) LCD and some plasma displays. Most displays I see in the store produce horrific images and it is not clear if they can even be corrected. Suitable plasma displays do exist (at a very high price) but even the manufacturer can't tell you how to obtain one. The consumer display industry seems to have gone into the toilet in the past three years. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From lyris1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 18:29:34 2010 From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:29:34 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, they manufactured some for a while where you couldn't turn this crap off, I remember. They've changed their ways, thankfully. >> Without a proper pluge via HDMI (why do set top boxes not include this?), with automatic contrast "enhancement" still enabled in the set, and with considerable black level detail still existing in some video well below the reference black-point, it is not clear how a consumer is supposed to adjust their TV for proper viewing. As an ISF tech myself, I wonder the same thing sometimes. The industry is just so horribly confused... On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Bob Friesenhahn < bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote: > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, David Mackenzie wrote: > > Bob, just to make sure, you don't have any of the Dynamic Contrast >> controls that TVs ship with turned on, do you? >> > > Unfortunately, with this model of Samsung TV it is not possible to turn off > the dNIE crap contrast enhancement mode without going into the service menu > and entering an undocumented hex code. I don't know how to do that. The so > called contrast-enhancement surely causes issues, and the set's demo mode > shows a clear lie in that the supposed unenhanced section obviously has a > low-pass filter applied. > > When I previously had this TV professionally calibrated, the calibration > guy did know how to turn off the contrast enhancement and the picture was > fantastic and stable. Since then, the DLP light engine was replaced on this > set and the calibration settings were necessarily lost. It is very > difficult to find ISF-certified calibrators willing to come out and > calibrate a display that they did not sell, and especially since most home > theater vendors have now gone out of business. I will try to do so again. > > Without a proper pluge via HDMI (why do set top boxes not include this?), > with automatic contrast "enhancement" still enabled in the set, and with > considerable black level detail still existing in some video well below the > reference black-point, it is not clear how a consumer is supposed to adjust > their TV for proper viewing. > > The TV does still operate pretty well with DVDs and have done extensive > testing of it with various test patterns from the Digital Video Essentials > DVD. > > > Bob > -- > Bob Friesenhahn > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ > From rob at colorist.org Wed Feb 24 20:34:13 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:34:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Dumb 888-DUI Question In-Reply-To: <017B6C81-73C4-4246-91B9-8BA65114498A@bellsouth.net> References: , <25C32187-AA6B-4859-90FE-81D0A7AF85AC@prestodigital.ca>, <441E868C-AF28-47B1-BE02-6C78CB4C8BD3@veralith.com>, <34DC43DC-D3A3-4E2A-9959-5477A41C015D@monkeyswithchopstix.com>, <91362660-0F81-415E-9AF1-1512069EC64C@cinelab.com> <4B84A48E.4080101@rogers.com> <017B6C81-73C4-4246-91B9-8BA65114498A@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Clark E Bierbaum wrote: > I found it easiest to run a terminal program on a cheap PC (old mac > duo in my case) and have it beside my panels at all times. Just > hook to the vt102 (or similarly labeled connection on the meta speed > board.) The serial terminal is still a useful item. As are vi, emacs, and X Windows. To put it mildly, bandwidth-friendly, which means ultimately, low carbon footprint. :] Sent from my VT100 Terminal -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk Wed Feb 24 21:15:14 2010 From: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk (Simon Burley) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:15:14 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2324.86.167.217.40.1267046114.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk> On Wed, February 24, 2010 3:43 pm, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > The article at > > http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma.html > > provides a facinating description of why resizing in linear-light can > be important in order to achieve a correct result. GraphicsMagick > does not do this by default, but explicit gamma correction steps > "cure" the problem: > > gm convert gamma_dalai_lama_gray.jpg -gamma 0.45 -resize 50% -gamma 2.2 > resized.jpg > > Thoughts? Most commercial (and also open source) applications don't make any provision to bandlimit the source image if reducing it's size, and hence introduce aliasing, which is evident on the pictures on that site. -- Simon Burley RPS Film Imaging Ltd ** Please note new telephone number below ** T: +44 (0) 208 661 9900 M: +44 (0) 7702 732 655 e: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Feb 24 21:37:34 2010 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:37:34 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0n6bo51cg04h7bk7doj1dou35ur6af2r6b@4ax.com> >Unfortunately, with this model of Samsung TV it is not possible to >turn off the dNIE crap contrast enhancement mode without going into >the service menu and entering an undocumented hex code. I don't know >how to do that. Have you tried a Google search for the code? There are several A/V forums whose members live for problems like this, and even have sections where calibration techs advertise. WWW.AVSFORUM.COM comes to mind. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Feb 24 22:43:46 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:43:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? Message-ID: Is anyone aware of a study of the effect of artificial contrast enhancement which is built into modern TVs? For example, use of a high-grade video camera or still camera to capture what TVs actually display so that it can be compared with the original? After delivery of my own Samsung TV, I was immediately struck by the huge changes which can occur to the image and that the changes made are quite image dependent. I have observed gross changes on other people's TVs as well. On some TVs (probably using default settings), the image is like a caricature of the original, with extreme contrast and saturated colors. For sports programs this "caricature" effect may be intended, but it does not satisfy at all for film or drama programs. It may be that each vendor uses a different algorithm, but perhaps there are similarities as well. With enough knowledge of how TVs actually behave, there may be tricks which could be employed on the front end (e.g. intentional non-obvious distortion) so that the displayed result remains closer to what the colorist saw on his studio monitor. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bobfesta at mac.com Thu Feb 25 00:36:24 2010 From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:36:24 -0800 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color Message-ID: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> Hi All, I've posted some new pictures of our facility. After being in business for a year, we have a bit of design maturity, and a new DI theatre to show you. No flames please. http://gallery.me.com/bobfesta#100638 Disclaimer. I have an interest in what is happening here. Bob Festa Send 1819 Colorado Avenue, Santa Monica, CA 90404 Call 310.401.2220 Fax 310.401.2224 Visit NewHat.TV Write bob at NewHat.TV From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com Thu Feb 25 00:45:14 2010 From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:45:14 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28E9C9FB-DAE5-48F7-9EC8-1374D304873E@monkeyswithchopstix.com> To be blunt... This will never happen. Within the professional industry there is no standard, so for the consumer space there is little chance. At the HPA Tech Retreat last week Charles Poynton suggested that there should be no controls whatsoever on displays. They should all be setup the same. He also said that even though he was on the comittee that setup Rec709, Rec709 is broken as a standard. I have to go through my notes if I can find the exact reasoning but nonetheless. Actually my notes as written are "Rec709 does not map signal to light". Later I wrote "all current mastering is done with SMPTE phospurs with Rec709 display/distribution..." As a display unit the most interesting coat effective setup was a Panasonic 11/12 series plasma with a Cinetal Davio processing unit. Peter Putman of ROAM and Panasonic were showing this. Erik 323-316-3731 --- If you understand everything, you must be misinformed. - Proverb, (Japanese) On Feb 24, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > Is anyone aware of a study of the effect of artificial contrast > enhancement which is built into modern TVs? For example, use of a > high-grade video camera or still camera to capture what TVs actually > display so that it can be compared with the original? > > After delivery of my own Samsung TV, I was immediately struck by the > huge changes which can occur to the image and that the changes made > are quite image dependent. I have observed gross changes on other > people's TVs as well. On some TVs (probably using default > settings), the image is like a caricature of the original, with > extreme contrast and saturated colors. For sports programs this > "caricature" effect may be intended, but it does not satisfy at all > for film or drama programs. > > It may be that each vendor uses a different algorithm, but perhaps > there are similarities as well. With enough knowledge of how TVs > actually behave, there may be tricks which could be employed on the > front end (e.g. intentional non-obvious distortion) so that the > displayed result remains closer to what the colorist saw on his > studio monitor. > > Bob > -- > Bob Friesenhahn > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Thu Feb 25 04:37:53 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:37:53 -0800 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> References: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Bob Festa wrote: > After being in business for a year, we have a bit of design > maturity, and a new DI theatre to show you. > > No flames please. > > http://gallery.me.com/bobfesta#100638 What a beguiling setting. Very nicely designed. Can you advise Bob, what we're looking at, for those who may not know, hardware/software- wise? No client would feel squeamish upon entering a dominion such as this. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From craig at optimus.com Thu Feb 25 04:54:36 2010 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:54:36 -0600 Subject: [Tig] [Fwd: Re: New Hat in Color] Message-ID: <4B86028C.5020206@optimus.com> Nice setup Bob !! Love the tilt on the Baselight screens in the DI room. Warms my heart to see BL's set up in a nice space. What are you guys using for the Waveform displays? Wow, you like 'em big. I gave up all my scopes except one, and I'm a histogram boy now. Don't really have much need for the HD scope I kept. Is that a Davio attached to your Cine-tal? I'm moving to a setup like that relatively soon, with a Panasonic. Anyway, congrats on what looks like a great build-out with great gear. All my best, as usual. Craig Craig Leffel Senior Colorist / Partner Optimus Chicago / Santa Monica Bob Festa wrote: > > Hi All, > > I've posted some new pictures of our facility. > > After being in business for a year, we have a bit of design maturity, and a new DI theatre to show you. > > No flames please. > > http://gallery.me.com/bobfesta#100638 > > Disclaimer. I have an interest in what is happening here. > > Bob Festa > > > From rob at colorist.org Thu Feb 25 05:02:09 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:02:09 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Rec709 (was: Re: Studies of TV contrast...) In-Reply-To: <28E9C9FB-DAE5-48F7-9EC8-1374D304873E@monkeyswithchopstix.com> References: <28E9C9FB-DAE5-48F7-9EC8-1374D304873E@monkeyswithchopstix.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:45 PM, Erik Hansen wrote: > Actually my notes as written are "Rec709 does not map signal to > light". Later I wrote "all current mastering is done with SMPTE > phospurs with Rec709 display/distribution..." Erik, do you mean that perhaps 'all current mastering is done _with_reference_to_SMPTE_phosphors...' and therefore, Rec709 is outmoded? > > As a display unit the most interesting coat effective setup was a > Panasonic 11/12 series plasma with a Cinetal Davio processing unit. > Peter Putman of ROAM and Panasonic were showing this. Would it be possible to point us to more information on this Erik? Rob TIG admin, founder -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From craig at optimus.com Thu Feb 25 05:09:56 2010 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:09:56 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B860624.2080005@optimus.com> This conversation was mentioned at HPA, and it was suggested that most manufacturers suggest using the "Standard" setting for the TV, or for less saturation and deeper blacks, the "Cinema" setting that many flat screens have. It was further pointed out that these setting line up fairly closely to the standard settings many colorists and engineers use for CRT's.... 100 nits. It was also pointed out that some displays may go as high as 150 nits using these settings, but the person furthering these ideas was persuasive in that he had checked a number of units in test for CES. This was an argument against a presentation that claimed some Plasmas and LCD's can be upwards of 400 - 500 nits. I disagree with that assertion too. In my own viewing, I feel like flat panels with the right settings in place can represent original grades pretty well. I agree with his findings, and I will also tell you that many many people leave their settings on "Vivid" or "Sports" which grossly distort the color space and the accuracy to the original. However, there's no stopping these people, and many of them probably just leave the settings that in place when the unit shows up at their house. If you haven't looked Bob, there are most likely presets in your set that are called "Standard", "Vivid", "Sports" and "Cinema"... or something very much like them. A couple of my sets even have user defined presets, but I liked Cinema so much, I just kept it. Good luck - Craig Leffel Optimus Chicago Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Is anyone aware of a study of the effect of artificial contrast > enhancement which is built into modern TVs? For example, use of a > high-grade video camera or still camera to capture what TVs actually > display so that it can be compared with the original? > > After delivery of my own Samsung TV, I was immediately struck by the > huge changes which can occur to the image and that the changes made > are quite image dependent. I have observed gross changes on other > people's TVs as well. On some TVs (probably using default settings), > the image is like a caricature of the original, with extreme contrast > and saturated colors. For sports programs this "caricature" effect > may be intended, but it does not satisfy at all for film or drama > programs. > From bobfesta at mac.com Thu Feb 25 05:24:35 2010 From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:24:35 -0800 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: References: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> Message-ID: <926F1064-6EEF-4F07-A03C-1EF4EC2D0035@mac.com> On Feb 24, 2010, at 8:37 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > Can you advise Bob, what we're looking at, for those who may not know, hardware/software-wise? > Well, If your giving me the soapbox... New Hat is a total non-linear facility, most of the work has been commercials, music videos, and now feature DI's. All film or digital acquisition elements start off as native data on our 300 Tb DDN SAN. Film is scanned on two Spirit 4ks as dpx files, and digital camera data is copied and assembled in its native format to local storage for higher throughput speeds. Three studios are equipped with Baselight 4 systems that contains 48Tb of storage locally. We also have one linear telecine bay if we get a quaint request to hang film. Sync and data are handled with a Bones dailies system. About 50% of our work leaves the studio on hard drives, and 50% leaves on traditional videotape. The DI bay was designed by Aarmadillo. Studio design by Mozu Venice, and decor by Show, and partner Darby Walker. Current colorists include Beau Leon, Marcelo Aprile, Michael Mintz, and Bob Festa. Rob, perhaps you should allow one facility a month to do a little profile on itself, like here. Best, Bob Send 1819 Colorado Avenue, Santa Monica, CA 90404 Call 310.401.2220 Fax 310.401.2224 Visit www.NewHat.TV Write bob at NewHat.TV From rob at colorist.org Thu Feb 25 05:27:38 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:27:38 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? In-Reply-To: <4B860624.2080005@optimus.com> References: <4B860624.2080005@optimus.com> Message-ID: <9A1A4A11-1BA8-450F-BBA3-676ECBF27B8C@colorist.org> On Feb 24, 2010, at 9:09 PM, Craig Leffel wrote: > If you haven't looked Bob, there are most likely presets in your set > that are called "Standard", "Vivid", "Sports" and "Cinema"... or > something very much like them. A couple of my sets even have user > defined presets, but I liked Cinema so much, I just kept it. I had a couple of large Panasonic plasma monitors to set up not long ago for clients, and also found that the Cinema setting tracked very closely the main grading monitor (Sony HD CRT). For still images. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Feb 25 06:15:40 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:15:40 -0800 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: <926F1064-6EEF-4F07-A03C-1EF4EC2D0035@mac.com> References: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> <926F1064-6EEF-4F07-A03C-1EF4EC2D0035@mac.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2010, at 9:24 PM, Bob Festa wrote: > Rob, perhaps you should allow one facility a month to do a little > profile on itself, like here. An excellent idea. Facilities hereby solicited for March. The facility table at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/FacilityTable is also available to anyone who wants to include their operation. Updates welcome, the table is available for public editing, and the TIG has high placement among search engines due to its longevity and proclivity. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From david at dcvideo.com Thu Feb 25 15:12:19 2010 From: david at dcvideo.com (David C. Crosthwait) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:12:19 -0800 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> References: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> Message-ID: <20100225071219.pfbmzmbj4kkcowos@webmail.dcvideo.com> Bob, Congratulations on a beautiful facility! Your "interest in what is happening here" is obvious. David Crosthwait DC Video www.dcvideo.com Quoting Bob Festa : > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2009. > Company 3 supports the TIG. > ==== > > Hi All, > > I've posted some new pictures of our facility. > > After being in business for a year, we have a bit of design > maturity, and a new DI theatre to show you. > > No flames please. > > http://gallery.me.com/bobfesta#100638 > > Disclaimer. I have an interest in what is happening here. > > Bob Festa > > Send 1819 Colorado Avenue, Santa Monica, CA 90404 > Call 310.401.2220 Fax 310.401.2224 Visit NewHat.TV > Write bob at NewHat.TV > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 David C. Crosthwait From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Thu Feb 25 09:20:57 2010 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:20:57 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: <0n6bo51cg04h7bk7doj1dou35ur6af2r6b@4ax.com> Message-ID: I cant believe this list is seriously considering the "professional set up" of a TV ... A consumer tele ! We are driving ourselves down to the depths ... This is why Joe Blow thinks he is a colorist, because he has a mac, and Fred has a mac, a light and a tele so it must be a suite. Sorry if your name is Joe Blow or Fred .. Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kertesz Sent: 24 February 2010 21:38 To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2009. Company 3 supports the TIG. ==== >Unfortunately, with this model of Samsung TV it is not possible to >turn off the dNIE crap contrast enhancement mode without going into >the service menu and entering an undocumented hex code. I don't know >how to do that. Have you tried a Google search for the code? There are several A/V forums whose members live for problems like this, and even have sections where calibration techs advertise. WWW.AVSFORUM.COM comes to mind. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTER compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Feb 25 18:59:35 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:59:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Rec709 (was: Re: Studies of TV contrast...) In-Reply-To: References: <28E9C9FB-DAE5-48F7-9EC8-1374D304873E@monkeyswithchopstix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > >> Actually my notes as written are "Rec709 does not map signal to light". >> Later I wrote "all current mastering is done with SMPTE phospurs with >> Rec709 display/distribution..." > > Erik, do you mean that perhaps 'all current mastering is done > _with_reference_to_SMPTE_phosphors...' and therefore, Rec709 is outmoded? It is true that SMPTE/ITU specifications currently depend on the behavior of certain phosphors in a CRT. It does not take a genius to realize that the typical 600-700 nits of brightness that current consumer TVs are delivered with is not representative of a Rec709 CRT. At that brightness the CRT phosphor would be turned into smoldering slag after reaching a supernova's worth of "bloom". The goal of consumer TV vendors is to be able to advertize a contrast ratio of 1,000,000:1 (which some now advertise). Apparently these vendors did not use a super-sensitive geiger counter in order to measure background radiation inherent in the materials used to build the device. Background radiation should count too. With only 216 levels to play with, each video step is about 0.4% but advertised million to one contrast ratios suggest a usable step of 0.0001%. While it is quite possible to build displays which match Rec709 expectations, most vendors are not interested in doing so. The consumer market has turned into a war of specifications in which capabilities (often useless capabilities) are declared which are impossible to see or measure. Every vendor uses their own trademarked terms when describing their product's features. Since almost all home theater stores (and most associated magazines) have now folded, consumers are now victim to big-box stores like Best Buy where it is impossible to tell one cost-reduced product from another and the remote controls are carefully out of reach of the customer. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From telecine at hotmail.com Thu Feb 25 20:14:49 2010 From: telecine at hotmail.com (Peter Lynch) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:14:49 +0000 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: <926F1064-6EEF-4F07-A03C-1EF4EC2D0035@mac.com> References: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> <926F1064-6EEF-4F07-A03C-1EF4EC2D0035@mac.com> Message-ID: Wow... We are all SO impressed... What has happened to this forum? Sent from my iPhone On 25 Feb 2010, at 05:24, Bob Festa wrote: >> Can you advise Bob, what we're looking at, for those who may not >> know, hardware/software-wise? >> > > Well, If your giving me the soapbox... From rob at colorist.org Thu Feb 25 20:43:29 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:43:29 -0800 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: References: <71418976-9C8C-41D3-94C2-D6A0E3D56062@mac.com> <926F1064-6EEF-4F07-A03C-1EF4EC2D0035@mac.com> Message-ID: <2CB00140-2CAE-400B-BD2F-3E5F3CC2ED79@colorist.org> On Feb 25, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Peter Lynch wrote: > Wow... We are all SO impressed... What has happened to this forum? > > Sent from my iPhone Is that a rhetorical question, like this one? :] I think Bob's posting was quite welcome, encouraged, shows us what's going on in that corner of the market. Sent from my VT100© Terminal -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin, flounder rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Feb 25 21:11:40 2010 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:11:40 -0500 Subject: [Tig] On the receiving end---(was Rec709 (was: Re: Studies of TV contrast...) In-Reply-To: References: <28E9C9FB-DAE5-48F7-9EC8-1374D304873E@monkeyswithchopstix.com> Message-ID: <45BE3C01-BBD2-4492-847B-3F9138D46A9B@tedlangdell.com> While we're grumping... On Feb 25, 2010, at 1:59 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Since almost all home theater stores (and most associated magazines) > have now folded, consumers are now victim to big-box stores like > Best Buy where it is impossible to tell one cost-reduced product > from another and the remote controls are carefully out of reach of > the customer. I'm sure its frustrating for folks on the list to see all their hard work blown away by mis-adjusted displays. Hotels put some surprisingly good flat screens into rooms, have them set to—for me—hard to watch settings, lock the menu so you can't adjust, and then plumb snowy, analog RF signals into the set, which is locked into displaying 4:3 stretched to 16:9. It would be nice to see a hotel's TV that actually displayed a properly adjusted picture... within the technical capabilities/ limitations of the set's technology. You ARE paying for it, after all. One would think that hotel chains which require certain standards to be met—like flat screens in rooms—would also require that they are required to display the picture in its correct aspect ratio and are properly set up to bars, and which could be done with a hand-held signal generator and a little training. I guess we'll only find that level of customer care if folks like Bob Festa decide to get into the Hospitality business and open a hotel for Colorists, Engineers and those that appreciate such. I've managed to select HDMI inputs on some during my tour and can see how good they look displaying my Macs' desktops. I've also put bars with PLUGE up via FCP, so I can see how far off they may be. Some have been surprisingly good. As a work-around, I'm looking for a reasonably priced HDTV tuner w/ HDMI and other outs (not DTV to SD converter) that I can get over the air HD, and either HDMI to the hotel display or plumb component analog to my Flanders 24" monitor and avoid the hotel's set, altogether. So far, nothing has turned up. /grump Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13 ted at flashscan8.us The flashscanHD/flashtransfer "West to California Tour" College Park, MD/Washington, DC through Feb. 27 Get details at flashscan8.us From craig at optimus.com Thu Feb 25 21:51:36 2010 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:51:36 -0600 Subject: [Tig] [Fwd: Re: Inconsistent video setup] Message-ID: <4B86F0E8.7040102@optimus.com> A few years ago, I would have thought the same thing Graham. But I've seen the Panasonic side by side with my trusted Sony 32" CRT, and it's unbelievably close - even without a Davio. A Davio just makes it a really versatile, repeatable, solid setup. Besides, CRT's aren't being sold anymore. They don't exist for new buyers. As much as I'd like to stomp my feet and hold on to the old way of doing things, I'm really tired of hearing that my CRT graded material doesn't look exactly the same as on a flat screen. Time to move on into the 21st century folks. Especially when the color space and quality are relatively equal. CRT's are dead and should be dead. The reality is they've been dead for 3 years. If you're still grading on one, you're not looking at what the majority of people will see when viewing your work. Especially when it stops first at an agency and Client advertiser. As for who's a colorist, I'll put my skills and my toolset up against anyone who thinks working in Color alone makes you a "Colorist". But, who really cares who calls themself a Colorist anyway? The proof is in whether or not you can make a living doing it. If you can, and you have clients, I guess it doesn't really matter what you call yourself. It works in music and Art, why not our little world? Just my 2 cents Graham. Best - Craig Leffel Graham Collett wrote: > > I cant believe this list is seriously considering the "professional set > up" of a TV ... A consumer tele ! > We are driving ourselves down to the depths ... This is why Joe Blow > thinks he is a colorist, because he has a mac, and Fred has a mac, a > light and a tele so it must be a suite. > Sorry if your name is Joe Blow or Fred .. > > > Graham Collett > > > From rick at fsm.com.au Thu Feb 25 22:10:49 2010 From: rick at fsm.com.au (Rick Schweikert) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:10:49 +1100 Subject: [Tig] New Hat in Color In-Reply-To: <2CB00140-2CAE-400B-BD2F-3E5F3CC2ED79@colorist.org> Message-ID: <3031.66131267136168.mail3.dmz.fsm.com.au@MHS> I agree with Rob. It's great to see people prepared to invest (heavily) in technology that allows them to execute their craft with the utmost precision and creative effect. Too often in this market, we're seeing half backed attempts at colour grading using ineffective technology in the hands of people who, with the best intentions, don't have the skills of an expert colourist. Add poor monitoring and incorrect lighting and you have a situation where the results on screen are sub standard - and then we all suffer. As a long time user of FilmLight products (1 x NorthLight, 2 x BaseLight) for commercial and theatrical grading, I applaud Bob's choice of technology. And that's not to say the DaVinci's of the world don't make good products too. What they all offer is the best available technology - anything else is a compromise. Rick, FSM Sydney. Disclaimer - I don't work for FilmLight, just use their kit. Well, I buy it and employ great colourists who use it. -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Friday, 26 February 2010 07:43 To: Peter Lynch Cc: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] New Hat in Color Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2009. Company 3 supports the TIG. ==== On Feb 25, 2010, at 12:14 PM, Peter Lynch wrote: > Wow... We are all SO impressed... What has happened to this forum? > > Sent from my iPhone Is that a rhetorical question, like this one? :] I think Bob's posting was quite welcome, encouraged, shows us what's going on in that corner of the market. Sent from my VT100C Terminal -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin, flounder rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Thu Feb 25 23:12:37 2010 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:12:37 -0000 Subject: [Tig] [Fwd: Re: Inconsistent video setup] In-Reply-To: <4B86F0E8.7040102@optimus.com> Message-ID: <4728EC19EF6D4B62B53E7F75B8525B1F@Sprocket> I don't want to keep the old ways .. I want to keep the old idea's of doing things right !!! ...look at this paragraph from another thread .... <<>> ...its exactly the same thing. Over and over again Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Craig Leffel Sent: 25 February 2010 21:52 To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] [Fwd: Re: Inconsistent video setup] Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2010. ==== A few years ago, I would have thought the same thing Graham. But I've seen the Panasonic side by side with my trusted Sony 32" CRT, and it's unbelievably close - even without a Davio. A Davio just makes it a really versatile, repeatable, solid setup. Besides, CRT's aren't being sold anymore. They don't exist for new buyers. As much as I'd like to stomp my feet and hold on to the old way of doing things, I'm really tired of hearing that my CRT graded material doesn't look exactly the same as on a flat screen. Time to move on into the 21st century folks. Especially when the color space and quality are relatively equal. CRT's are dead and should be dead. The reality is they've been dead for 3 years. If you're still grading on one, you're not looking at what the majority of people will see when viewing your work. Especially when it stops first at an agency and Client advertiser. As for who's a colorist, I'll put my skills and my toolset up against anyone who thinks working in Color alone makes you a "Colorist". But, who really cares who calls themself a Colorist anyway? The proof is in whether or not you can make a living doing it. If you can, and you have clients, I guess it doesn't really matter what you call yourself. It works in music and Art, why not our little world? Just my 2 cents Graham. Best - Craig Leffel Graham Collett wrote: > > I cant believe this list is seriously considering the "professional > set up" of a TV ... A consumer tele ! We are driving ourselves down to > the depths ... This is why Joe Blow thinks he is a colorist, because > he has a mac, and Fred has a mac, a light and a tele so it must be a > suite. Sorry if your name is Joe Blow or Fred .. > > > Graham Collett > > > _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From lyris1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 22:23:22 2010 From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:23:22 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: <0n6bo51cg04h7bk7doj1dou35ur6af2r6b@4ax.com> Message-ID: Graham, forgive me if I've missed the point here - but why shouldn't the list consider the professional setup of a consumer TV? It's where the majority of content is going to be seen, surely? Calibration controls on TVs are improving and while I certainly can't claim they reach the quality of a studio monitor, some of the better Plasma displays, after calibration, have remarkably linear greyscale and gamma properties. From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Feb 26 01:33:37 2010 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:33:37 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: <0n6bo51cg04h7bk7doj1dou35ur6af2r6b@4ax.com> Message-ID: <2A3A9DB3-90C8-4CCC-8DBB-34AA01A4E166@tedlangdell.com> On Feb 25, 2010, at 5:23 PM, David Mackenzie wrote: > Graham, forgive me if I've missed the point here - but why shouldn't > the > list consider the professional setup of a consumer TV? It's where the > majority of content is going to be seen, surely? Calibration > controls on TVs > are improving and while I certainly can't claim they reach the > quality of a > studio monitor, some of the better Plasma displays, after > calibration, have > remarkably linear greyscale and gamma properties. Televison stations used to air bars and tone so engineers could line up the plant. Viewers who know how could also adjust their sets. After all the expense of switching to DTV and HD, it would be in the long-term best interests of stations to do some consumer education... airing "how to" videos and test signals at regular times enabling viewers to adjust their sets for best picture. "We want you to have the best picture possible on the Super Bowl (or tonight's Olympics)... so at 6:45, we'll spend a few minutes walking your through how to adjust your set, and then put up a test signal to help you do it. Instructions are also on-line." Over time, it could earn some viewer loyalty points. Maybe NBC should pick this up. It was the first full-color network. Needs some viewers. Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13 ted at flashscan8.us From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Feb 26 02:35:37 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:35:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: <2A3A9DB3-90C8-4CCC-8DBB-34AA01A4E166@tedlangdell.com> References: <0n6bo51cg04h7bk7doj1dou35ur6af2r6b@4ax.com> <2A3A9DB3-90C8-4CCC-8DBB-34AA01A4E166@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Ted Langdell wrote: > > After all the expense of switching to DTV and HD, it would be in the > long-term best interests of stations to do some consumer education... airing > "how to" videos and test signals at regular times enabling viewers to adjust > their sets for best picture. It used to be that HD.Net would play a test signal like that for about 10 minutes very early every morning, but it seems that they stopped doing so. That is a shame since I recorded it on my previous DVR and the recording was lost when the DVR failed. Maybe I should call them and see if it can be reinstated. Every cable and satellite system should reserve a dedicated channel just for calibration signals. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From ramona at spectsoft.com Fri Feb 26 02:39:19 2010 From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:39:19 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: <2A3A9DB3-90C8-4CCC-8DBB-34AA01A4E166@tedlangdell.com> References: <0n6bo51cg04h7bk7doj1dou35ur6af2r6b@4ax.com> <2A3A9DB3-90C8-4CCC-8DBB-34AA01A4E166@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <201002251839.19217.ramona@spectsoft.com> On Thursday 25 February 2010 5:33:37 pm Ted Langdell wrote: > Televison stations used to air bars and tone so engineers could line > up the plant. Viewers who know how could also adjust their sets. Ted, that is actually a really good idea. And, most of the new consumer sets have card slots so stills of bars and charts could be put on a card and whala, a way to set up the monitor without the feed. I am going to try this on our units. Cheers, Ramona -- Ramona Howard Co-founder of SpectSoft, makers of the Rave product line. Oakdale, Ca 95361 209 847-7812 ext 104 209 847-7859 fax http://www.spectsoft.com SpectSoft can be found on Facebook and Twitter. Follow here for current up to the minute news. From bob at bluescreen.com Fri Feb 26 04:20:17 2010 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:20:17 -0800 Subject: [Tig] On the receiving end---(was Rec709 (was: Re: Studies of TV contrast...) In-Reply-To: <45BE3C01-BBD2-4492-847B-3F9138D46A9B@tedlangdell.com> References: <28E9C9FB-DAE5-48F7-9EC8-1374D304873E@monkeyswithchopstix.com> <45BE3C01-BBD2-4492-847B-3F9138D46A9B@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: >Hotels put some surprisingly good flat screens into rooms, have them >set to—for me—hard to watch settings, lock the menu so you can't >adjust, and then plumb snowy, analog RF signals into the set, which is >locked into displaying 4:3 stretched to 16:9. Back when I was on the road five days a week doing football, I bought a small but versatile universal remote for about $15 which, when matched to the hotel TV brand, almost always gave me access to the menu system, where I could change anything I wanted, including turning back on non-premium channels that the hotel randomly locked out (Vegas is famous for doing that - they don't want you staying in the room). Not only was it remarkably handy, but as a bonus I didn't have to touch the plague infected remote in the room. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Feb 26 07:59:44 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:59:44 -0800 Subject: [Tig] colorist directory Message-ID: Colorists interested in putting their name at the top of search engine listings, along with a showcase of their work, are encouraged to use the Colorist Directory section of the TIG wiki: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Category:Colorist ...see the Test Colorist entry for an example of what you can do, and the various colorist entries as well. This one http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Rob_Lingelbach uses all the features. Rob TIG admin -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Fri Feb 26 09:29:35 2010 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:29:35 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C7466A4900C480D93B394635C374099@Sprocket> Absolutely true, the consumer watches it, and we all need to keep half an eye on that end ...and in the past, post clients have wanted to see their results on a consumer tele just to see what its like .. ask the list what happens to any post house that has 2 monitors in one room, let alone a tele .... My argument now is that people have started to actually do the work on sub-standard equipment, not just a reference for the consumer, and then pretend to be the same as a million pound suite. I've seen some real rubbish transmitted lately ...would have been better without being touched. Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of David Mackenzie Sent: 25 February 2010 22:23 To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2030 subscribers in February 2010. ==== Graham, forgive me if I've missed the point here - but why shouldn't the list consider the professional setup of a consumer TV? It's where the majority of content is going to be seen, surely? Calibration controls on TVs are improving and while I certainly can't claim they reach the quality of a studio monitor, some of the better Plasma displays, after calibration, have remarkably linear greyscale and gamma properties. _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From hxpro at cinesite.co.uk Fri Feb 26 11:47:13 2010 From: hxpro at cinesite.co.uk (Kevin Wheatley) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:47:13 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize In-Reply-To: <2324.86.167.217.40.1267046114.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk> References: <2324.86.167.217.40.1267046114.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B87B4C1.1010902@cinesite.co.uk> Simon Burley wrote: > On Wed, February 24, 2010 3:43 pm, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > >> The article at >> >> http://www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/gamma.html >> >> provides a facinating description of why resizing in linear-light can >> be important in order to achieve a correct result. GraphicsMagick >> does not do this by default, but explicit gamma correction steps >> "cure" the problem: >> >> gm convert gamma_dalai_lama_gray.jpg -gamma 0.45 -resize 50% -gamma 2.2 >> resized.jpg >> >> Thoughts? as described on the site 0.45 and 2.2 are not the best approximation of the real functions... for images, in particular video images correctly encoded might look better using nearer 0.52 if all you have is a gamma control. > Most commercial (and also open source) applications don't make any > provision to bandlimit the source image if reducing it's size, and hence > introduce aliasing, which is evident on the pictures on that site. Well that depends on the resampling filter of course... for more fun try resize floating point HDR images with true specular highlights and watch the aliases appear. Kevin -- | Kevin Wheatley, Cinesite (Europe) Ltd | Nobody thinks this | | Senior Technology | My employer for certain | | And Network Systems Architect | Not even myself | Cinesite (Europe) Ltd. Registered Office: HemelOne, Boundary Way, Hemel Hempstead, Herts, HP2 7YU Registered in Cardiff No. 2820389 VAT No. 630 5446 60 From lyris1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 09:44:15 2010 From: lyris1 at gmail.com (David Mackenzie) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:44:15 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: <9C7466A4900C480D93B394635C374099@Sprocket> References: <9C7466A4900C480D93B394635C374099@Sprocket> Message-ID: >> After all the expense of switching to DTV and HD, it would be in the long-term best interests of stations to do some consumer education... airing "how to" videos and test signals at regular times enabling viewers to adjust their sets for best picture. SKY in the UK did this, and I believe BBC HD has a similar test card which sometimes pops up as well. But it really only deals with basic controls like black level, white level, and aspect ratio. With the amount of processing guff being built into TVs and the bizarre out of the box settings, try explaining blue-tinted Greyscale (the biggest offender IMO), Gamut, over-the-top Sharpening, and botched temporal noise reduction that makes everything look like melting clay, to the average viewer! They shouldn't even have to know, but they do. I think that the way forward is modes such as the THX image preset found on some Plasma displays. It basically attempts to hit D65/Rec 709 out of the box, shuts off any overscan or noise reduction, and usually does a decent job. Partly thanks to us pestering them, this year's new Panasonic Plasmas have a "Professional" mode (and a THX mode, as well as ISF calibration controls) which all have the same goal in mind. I haven't had the chance to measure or calibrate one yet though. With all of this said, I don't think the situation for consumer displays is anything like as bad as it used to be; things are on the up. -David Mackenzie From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Fri Feb 26 11:35:28 2010 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson at compuserve.com) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:35:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Tig] On the receiving end---(was Rec709 (was: Re: Studies of TV contrast...) Message-ID: <8CC84EEEE53E32B-71C-1F87@angweb-usd005.sysops.aol.com> I guessover the past couple of years I have joined the consumer side. However I havenever found an LCD or Plasma display that seems to match the quality I used tosee from Grade 1 studio CRT monitors. Severalyears ago I saw some 50” SAGEM rear projection TVs using DLP technology(HTD501), they fascinated me for their perceived resolution, contrast handling,colorimetry, brightness, greyscale tracking, zero motion lag and lack ofprocessing artefacts . Plus they did not overcook their setups to provide consumersuper saturation etc. And, OK, I may be lucky but I don’t suffer the rainboweffect, which is about the only downside to this technology. Their upconversion of SD material was amazing asthey incorporated Faroudja decoders. While theyare only 720p they do include component and DVI inputs. I m theproud owner of several of these now thanks to Sagem including a lamp failedtimer that shut down the sets halfway through the lamps life. Once you know howto reset it another 3000 hours is available! Even new 6000hour lamps are nowonly $130. Lately a Sagemdesign fault has caused many more of these fantastic Sagem DLP displays toappear on Ebay. The DLP engine includesa small light tunnel, to concentrate the lamp illumination onto the DLP chip.This tunnel comprises four narrow mirrors lining a rectangular metal tunnel. Theglue holding these mirrors was too brittle and is now failing causing themirrors to “sag”. This shows as shading at the image periphery.. However thetunnel is relatively easy to get at, and, with a suitable high temp flexibleglass glue the mirrors are easy to stick back in place. While I canpick up from ebay these 50” DLP displays for less than $60 I have no intentionof going down the LCD/Plasma route. If you geta chance to pick one up with either a lamp time out, which Sagem call Lamp fail,or one is offered with shading problems, like 50% loss of illumination aroundvarious edges of the image, then let me know and I can tell you how to usually fixthem . One other occasional problem, thecolor wheel fails, this exhibits one of two ways. A black & white image, the filter wheelis smashed, or a single color, the wheel drive is faulty or the wheel is stuck. Sagem madea range of these TVs, I am referring to the first, and in my opinion best unitthe HTD 501. Later units45”, 50” and 56” used a screen material that produced a bit more brightness butis compromised by looking very granular. All versions use a 720p DLP engine (1280 x 720). The later units includeHDMI but some were not 100% compatible. Rumours are that Sagem ceased manufacture because they could no longer make these sets at a price that was profitable. I guess Jo public were not interested in quality and became satisfied with LCD & Plasma, which were much cheaper than Sagems $2000-$4000 price. Cheers Peter From petej at filmworkers.com Fri Feb 26 13:30:32 2010 From: petej at filmworkers.com (Pete Jannotta) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:30:32 -0600 Subject: [Tig] CRTs, Plasmas, My Neighbors TV, Fat Faces Message-ID: <20100226133032.f96c19e0@mail-server2.filmworkers.com> I'm happy to see this topic being discussed and I have to admit I have been questioning the value of monitoring our work in a way that only works in our closed loop of high quality CRTs and flat screens "simulating" CRTs. The whole CRT vs. "lower quality flat screen" quandary has bothered me for at least the last couple of years. My observations in the real consumer world prove to me that it's the Wild West out there. I have never before seen such an unpredictable mess made of our work than ever before. I don't even want to get into the whole stretching of 4x3 images to fill 16x9 space that everyone is excepting as normal.. I live in a high rise neighborhood and can more easily see my neighbor's flat screen across the street than the old CRT display in my living room. I think that display across the street is putting out slightly more than 30 ft./lmbts., not to mention most of the images displayed on it are not sized properly. So the question I pose to the group is one that I can't yet answer myself. Is it more correct to judge our work on CRTs and flat screens "simulating" CRTs our do we monitor super bright wide gamut so that we know what our work will most likely look like in the real world. Another statement and question. I agree that CRTs are dying away. Why monitor with a prosumer flat screen and go through great pains to make it look like a CRT? This curious mind wants to know. Still Loving My Craft Of 32 Years, Pete Jannotta ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Feb 26 17:41:00 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:41:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] On the receiving end---(was Rec709 (was: Re: Studies of TV contrast...) In-Reply-To: <8CC84EEEE53E32B-71C-1F87@angweb-usd005.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC84EEEE53E32B-71C-1F87@angweb-usd005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, peter_swinson at compuserve.com wrote: > Lately a Sagemdesign fault has caused many more of these fantastic > Sagem DLP displays toappear on Ebay. The DLP engine includesa small > light tunnel, to concentrate the lamp illumination onto the DLP > chip.This tunnel comprises four narrow mirrors lining a rectangular > metal tunnel. Theglue holding these mirrors was too brittle and is > now failing causing themirrors to “sag”. This shows as shading at > the image periphery.. However thetunnel is relatively easy to get > at, and, with a suitable high temp flexibleglass glue the mirrors > are easy to stick back in place. This is precisely the failure which occured in my Samsung DLP display and resulted in replacement of the light engine. Probably there is a common design/manufacturer for this component. As with yourself, my DLP TV arrived quite accurate (when in the right setting) although the calibration guy was able to achieve a better picture. I definitely agree with you that DLP is the most accurate technology for consumer displays. 720P DLP was a sweet spot since each viewed pixel corresponded to one DLP pixel (no "wobbulation"). Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of consumers primarily care if the TV is a flat panel and they have not yet figured out how to make DLP into a flat panel. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Feb 26 17:45:48 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:45:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Influence of gamma on image resize In-Reply-To: <4B87B4C1.1010902@cinesite.co.uk> References: <2324.86.167.217.40.1267046114.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk> <4B87B4C1.1010902@cinesite.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Kevin Wheatley wrote: > > as described on the site 0.45 and 2.2 are not the best approximation > of the real functions... for images, in particular video images > correctly encoded might look better using nearer 0.52 if all you have > is a gamma control. Right. 2.2 is the claimed "standard" but it seems that everyone is using more. DCI XYZ is using 2.6. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Feb 26 18:12:59 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:12:59 -0800 Subject: [Tig] new in the TIG classifieds Message-ID: <89D076CA-D275-41FC-B540-A22B2BFC3EB0@colorist.org> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds We have a Tangent CP-100 color panel for sale. Unit works great and is in very good condition. The panel is very solid and a great tool for an experienced colorist. I can send pictures of the unit. It has a glossy piano black surface. It comes with a black wooden frame so it can sit on a desk. Asking $9000, but I will accept resonable offers. (Selling for $18,000 at B&H). Contact me at: prberg2 [at] yahoo.com -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From catfishwood at hotmail.com Fri Feb 26 18:49:33 2010 From: catfishwood at hotmail.com (Ian Wood) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:49:33 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Looking for local consultant In-Reply-To: <89D076CA-D275-41FC-B540-A22B2BFC3EB0@colorist.org> References: <89D076CA-D275-41FC-B540-A22B2BFC3EB0@colorist.org> Message-ID: Is anyone on this list in the New Orleans area? If so, please contact me. Thanks. -Ian Wood504-496-7423 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Feb 26 19:58:32 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:58:32 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Storage: 35 terabytes on one 4-inch tape Message-ID: <43EAE4E0-0EE7-42B5-AFAB-F3C750F27A6F@colorist.org> IBM and Fujifilm have achieved a world record in magnetic tape density: 30GB per square inch. So a single cartridge can hold 35 terabytes. The article is at http://www.smartertechnology.com/c/a/Technology-For-Change/IBM-Brightens-Future-of-Magnetic-Tape-with-World-Record/ A penny per GB, which is a lot more frugal than the 10c per GB for HDD storage. This implies that storage of our image data will remain inexpensive if done to tape. IBM plans to increase density to 100GB per square inch, "in anticipation of massive storage needs for recorded video from the millions of security cameras..." The fascinating footage of Mossad agents in Dubai comes to mind. I was on the UC San Diego campus yesterday at the Supercomputing Center, which sadly has lost its NSF funding, and is apparently being re-purposed for biotechnology. The UCSD Center for Magnetic Recording Research is addressing the need for increased density: http://invent.ucsd.edu/technology/cases/2005/SD2005-003.shtml Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin, founder rob at colorist.org From jyaz at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 27 04:32:04 2010 From: jyaz at sympatico.ca (James Yazbeck) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:32:04 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup In-Reply-To: References: <9C7466A4900C480D93B394635C374099@Sprocket> Message-ID: If Rogers cable in Canada can offer a "Fireplace" Channel. I would thing a "Monitor Setup Channel" would be very easy. Jim Yazbeck. -------------------------------------------------- From: "David Mackenzie" Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:44 AM To: "Telecine Internet Group" Subject: Re: [Tig] Inconsistent video setup > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2030 subscribers in February 2010. > ==== > >>> After all the expense of switching to DTV and HD, it would be in the > long-term best interests of stations to do some consumer education... > airing > "how to" videos and test signals at regular times enabling viewers to > adjust > their sets for best picture. > > SKY in the UK did this, and I believe BBC HD has a similar test card which > sometimes pops up as well. But it really only deals with basic controls > like > black level, white level, and aspect ratio. With the amount of processing > guff being built into TVs and the bizarre out of the box settings, try > explaining blue-tinted Greyscale (the biggest offender IMO), Gamut, > over-the-top Sharpening, and botched temporal noise reduction that makes > everything look like melting clay, to the average viewer! They shouldn't > even have to know, but they do. > > I think that the way forward is modes such as the THX image preset found > on > some Plasma displays. It basically attempts to hit D65/Rec 709 out of the > box, shuts off any overscan or noise reduction, and usually does a decent > job. Partly thanks to us pestering them, this year's new Panasonic Plasmas > have a "Professional" mode (and a THX mode, as well as ISF calibration > controls) which all have the same goal in mind. I haven't had the chance > to > measure or calibrate one yet though. With all of this said, I don't think > the situation for consumer displays is anything like as bad as it used to > be; things are on the up. > > -David Mackenzie > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3 From velocite at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 06:29:25 2010 From: velocite at gmail.com (John Buck / Velocite) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:29:25 +1100 Subject: [Tig] Kodak Message-ID: <29AAB6BE-0BD8-4E4D-850C-5448E16904D1@gmail.com> Pardon my ignorance but as I research the 3:2 pulldown issue with electronic editing, for my own writing I have found a book Lost illusions: American cinema in the shadow of Watergate and Vietnam, 1970 ... By David A. Cook that tells of a Kodak innovation in 1982. The text essentially says Around the same time, Kodak created a way to record an eight digit SMPTE timecode for each film frame, with a transparent magnetic coating on its film stock. What was this product? and was it realised? Thanks TIG'ers John From rob at colorist.org Sun Feb 28 07:35:57 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:35:57 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Kodak In-Reply-To: <29AAB6BE-0BD8-4E4D-850C-5448E16904D1@gmail.com> References: <29AAB6BE-0BD8-4E4D-850C-5448E16904D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17DB1321-345B-4415-A7C1-2FCF206F1302@colorist.org> On Feb 27, 2010, at 10:29 PM, John Buck / Velocite wrote: > Around the same time, Kodak created a way to record an eight digit > SMPTE timecode for each film frame, with a transparent magnetic > coating on its film stock. Hi John, I don't recall ever seeing the film with SMPTE code, though I had heard of it in the course of work in the 1980s. If I'm not mistaken, there were difficulties with it, though I don't remember why. Here is the patent information, which I found by searching on the terms "SMPTE code coating film." http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/4587572/description.html Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin, founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sun Feb 28 07:39:32 2010 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:39:32 -0800 Subject: [Tig] DataKode (was: Re: Kodak) In-Reply-To: <29AAB6BE-0BD8-4E4D-850C-5448E16904D1@gmail.com> References: <29AAB6BE-0BD8-4E4D-850C-5448E16904D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E2A9C72-468E-4C4D-9F4E-AF4F267A8216@colorist.org> Here is the story, in a book excerpt: http://tinyurl.com/yderq6m -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Feb 28 17:03:38 2010 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:03:38 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On some TVs (probably using default settings), >the image is like a caricature of the original, with extreme contrast >and saturated colors. For sports programs this "caricature" effect >may be intended, but it does not satisfy at all for film or drama >programs. Most sets sold today ship in "showroom" mode, which means the images are set so that when the display is unpacked at Best Buy and set up in a showroom with fifty other sets, the manufacturer has turned all the knobs up to "11" (knobs being a theoretical construct) so that their set is the one that catches the wandering consumers' eye. Accuracy is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that the image says "HEY, YOU! LOOK OVER HERE! COME AND CHECK THIS OUT". The best consumer set I've seen in the last five years is the JVC DiLA set I have in my living room, far superior and accurate reproduction to anything else. Of course, nothing that good was going to prosper, so a back room deal was made to stop producing those light engines and kill or at least severely marginalize the DiLA technology. The marketing slime's repeated hammering of "thinner is better" did the rest to pretty much kill off both it and DLP engine sets, even though DLP finally figured out a way to get rid of the rainbow which used to drive me nuts. I do have to say that the really good Panasonic plasmas look quite good indeed, but as consumer sets for, say, a bedroom, between the heat, power consumption, and fan noise, it was a non-starter for me. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Feb 28 17:17:15 2010 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 09:17:15 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Storage: 35 terabytes on one 4-inch tape In-Reply-To: <43EAE4E0-0EE7-42B5-AFAB-F3C750F27A6F@colorist.org> References: <43EAE4E0-0EE7-42B5-AFAB-F3C750F27A6F@colorist.org> Message-ID: >IBM and Fujifilm have achieved a world record in magnetic tape >density: 30GB per square inch. So a single cartridge can hold 35 >terabytes. Boy, talk about putting all your eggs in one basket :-). A single bit flip in the tape's header, and people will get remarkably interesting looks on their faces when the software comes back with "Tape is blank, format tape now?" and Gone With The Wind really will be :-). And no, I don't have a better archiving suggestion because a good *long term* solution has yet to present itself. But it sure as hell ain't magnetic tape as far as I'm concerned. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Feb 28 19:32:46 2010 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:32:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Feb 2010, Bob Kertesz wrote: > > The best consumer set I've seen in the last five years is the JVC DiLA set I > have in my living room, far superior and accurate reproduction to anything > else. Of course, nothing that good was going to prosper, so a back room deal > was made to stop producing those light engines and kill or at least severely > marginalize the DiLA technology. The marketing slime's repeated hammering of > "thinner is better" did the rest to pretty much kill off both it and DLP > engine sets, even though DLP finally figured out a way to get rid of the > rainbow which used to drive me nuts. DiLA can indeed be quite pleasing. When DLP is done correctly, it can also be quite pleasing and exceedingly stable. Luckly, there are two new factors at work which might help revert some bad things which have happened. One of these is California-style legal requirements for energy efficiency. The other is 3D. Even LCD panels consume much more power than a micro-device (e.g. LCOS or DLP) based display. Micro-device based displays (especially DLP) are much faster to react than LCD or Plasma so they are better for 3D. We can only hope. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From ted at tedlangdell.com Sun Feb 28 22:41:40 2010 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:41:40 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Studies of TV contrast enhancement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B0589D3-EDE1-4A3D-B438-EBE07ED189BA@tedlangdell.com> On Feb 28, 2010, at 12:03 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > The best consumer set I've seen in the last five years is the JVC > DiLA set I > have in my living room, far superior and accurate reproduction to > anything > else. Interesting to note that this technology (JVC's DiLA Liquid Crystal on Silicon) is used by at least two manufacturers of digital to film output devices. Trivia question: Which ones? Usual disclaimer about representing MWA Nova, etc. here. Ted Langdell flashscan8.us Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Call here after Jan. 13 ted at flashscan8.us The flashscanHD/flashtransfer "West to California Tour" Get details at flashscan8.us