From doctorossi at yahoo.com  Fri May  1 02:12:12 2009
From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
In-Reply-To: <27FC5711-2A02-4228-A801-A5637E772CA7@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <919335.53391.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


> each to his own.  Shawshank is rated in the top 5 of films
> of all time by the AFI..  Coraline?  well..

Yes, I'm quite aware that I'm in the minority having the taste to recognize that film for the over-rated (albeit solidly-crafted) pap that it is. This fact, however, does nothing to elevate the film from mediocrity. :)

Okay, now that I'm done being snarky, the point is: I responded to your list of 2D features with a list of 3D features I consider to be on a reasonably comparable level. If you disagree, indeed "each to his own", as you say. I considered your list for what it means to me. Were the request "Name some 3D movies which compare favorably with your personal top few 2D movies of all time", I would concede the point that, indeed, I have yet to see any.

Coraline is good enough, IMO, that I'm satisfied that the reason no 3D movies have yet to crack my top 10 is because movies of any sort which crack my top 10 are incredibly rare, not because 3D movies would be incapable of doing it.

Schuyler Dunn 


      



From mfw at musictrax.com  Fri May  1 02:46:52 2009
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:46:52 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <839CCAF3-ED02-4B65-8BC2-51D62E19138D@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <C61FA29C.1112A%mfw@musictrax.com>

On 4/30/09 2:57 PM, "Rob Lingelbach" <rob at colorist.org> wrote:

> what happened, in your opinion?  to me, the color faded prematurely,
> and the
> luminance faded later or out of sync with the chroma.
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

Yeah, I'd say it looks something like that.  It also looks like a linear
fade.  There could be a hundred potential things going wrong to create the
problem.

Me personally, I think any demo tape risks putting the recipient to sleep
after a few moments.  Rather than start with long scenes (or entire spots),
I say, keep 'em short, like maybe :20 second clips of each segment, and make
the differences vast:  extreme looks; slow, beautiful shots; exteriors;
interiors; faces; fast action; nature; cities.  Show a wide range of
material in a short montage, maybe 2 minutes tops.  Then after that, provide
a menu item for people to watch each complete shot on the DVD.  It takes
maybe an hour to set this up in iDVD or something similar.

--Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist
Technicolor Creative Services
Hollywood, USA

NOTE:  The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily
represent those of my employers.





From rob at cinelab.com  Fri May  1 00:24:40 2009
From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:24:40 -0400
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
In-Reply-To: <334409.64867.qm@web57702.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <334409.64867.qm@web57702.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5F32D89B-0357-4A0F-B0AA-515AEF1F64DB@cinelab.com>


OI also think it would have been no different if it were shot on
>> mitchells and shown in 2D.
>
> I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you're saying you  
> don't think it gains anything from the 3D aspect, I disagree with  
> you completely. Have you seen it in 3D?

Yes I saw it in 3D in a new high quality theatre as I said I though it  
was just ok not really great.

-Rob-

Robert Houllahan
rob at cinelab.com
Filmmaker
Vp Cinelab Inc.
www.cinelab.com





From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Fri May  1 16:39:18 2009
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 08:39:18 -0700
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
In-Reply-To: <919335.53391.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <27FC5711-2A02-4228-A801-A5637E772CA7@colorist.org>
	<919335.53391.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <43298eae0905010839j7de6ec5eq136562bc2e03a8a2@mail.gmail.com>

> Coraline is good enough, IMO, that I'm satisfied that the reason no 3D movies have yet to crack my top 10 is because movies of any sort which crack my top 10 are incredibly rare, not because 3D movies would be incapable of doing it.


I'd leave a crack to see what James Cameron comes up with for Avatar.
 Weta has been at it for a while now and they have some Oscars under their belt.
 I'm sure all the Kings Horses and all the Kings men will seeing some
Avatar action around the world this summer.
best,
Jeff Olm
Stereo Colorist
LA, CA



From mfw at musictrax.com  Fri May  1 19:31:48 2009
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 11:31:48 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local>
Message-ID: <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>

On 4/30/09 1:57 PM, "Lewis Saunders" <lewis at lewissaunders.com> wrote:

> Such a simple effect can go interestingly wrong - many TK'd films on DVD
> I've seen have odd colour shifts as white titles dissolve down.  I assume
> that's introduced by the transfer since I don't recall projected titles
> doing that... does anyone know why that might happen?
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

Yeah, this is an artifact from optical generations going back a long time.
I believe the problem is that when super-white titles burn through the dupe
neg stock, it goes right through to the orange backing.  When the picture is
inverted to positive during transfer, you wind up with titles going slightly
blue (opposite of yellow/orange) as they fade in and fade out.  The IPs
often used for home video mastering range from good to horrible, depending
on the age of the materials and the labs used.

I usually covered this problem up in mastering with a combination of power
windows, keying, luma desat, and whatever else I could think of.  But I
still see color shifts in white titles during old movies all the time.  In
new films, they can tweak the digital files so it's perfect 100% of the
time.

Note when you do see this problem on an old transfer, it doesn't necessarily
mean somebody didn't care or somebody didn't try to fix the problem.
Chances are, if you saw the original elements, they were 1000 times worse.

--Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist
Technicolor Creative Services
Hollywood, USA

NOTE:  The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily
represent those of my employers.





From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  1 19:34:04 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 21:34:04 +0300
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
In-Reply-To: <43298eae0905010839j7de6ec5eq136562bc2e03a8a2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27FC5711-2A02-4228-A801-A5637E772CA7@colorist.org>
	<919335.53391.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<43298eae0905010839j7de6ec5eq136562bc2e03a8a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29B064DC-BD6F-4763-BB3F-915FA294F864@colorist.org>


On May 1, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Jeff Olm wrote:

> I'd leave a crack to see what James Cameron comes up with for Avatar.
> Weta has been at it for a while now and they have some Oscars under  
> their belt

I think taste in films, as in other arts like writing, music,  
painting, are so personal
we'll never get very far in debating it.  It might be fun to match a  
certain kind of music
to its counterpart in another art: Debussy with Cezanne; Ornette  
Coleman with Jackson
Pollock.  Film and literature: John Huston with John Steinbeck;  
Preston Sturges with
Norman Mailer....

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  1 19:37:30 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 21:37:30 +0300
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
References: <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
Message-ID: <0D355237-E978-4C7B-9E8E-D1D073A58B5F@colorist.org>


On May 1, 2009, at 9:31 PM, Marc Wielage wrote:
>
> Yeah, this is an artifact from optical generations going back a long  
> time.
> I believe the problem is that when super-white titles burn through  
> the dupe

this reminds me a little of the audio buzz that happened in analog TVs  
when the luminance
was so hot it crossed into the audio subcarrier, .. I might have that  
slightly wrong.
But it was explained to me in 1984 by Dave Tosh, and that's 25 years  
ago.

--  Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From lists at neonmargarita.com  Fri May  1 19:42:52 2009
From: lists at neonmargarita.com (Jeff Heusser)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 11:42:52 -0700
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
In-Reply-To: <43298eae0905010839j7de6ec5eq136562bc2e03a8a2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27FC5711-2A02-4228-A801-A5637E772CA7@colorist.org>
	<919335.53391.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<43298eae0905010839j7de6ec5eq136562bc2e03a8a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90AA1438-D0C5-4492-A776-4FB3D35DCCBD@neonmargarita.com>

The problem with Avatar is while it will get everyone all excited  
about 3D, no one will talk about:
A) it is James Cameron
B) how long has this movie been in production?  2 years? 3?
C) what is the budget? (Time article says in excess of 200 million)

It will likely be hailed as the model for all 3D to come, while  
conveniently forgetting those factors.  The stereo push will continue  
no matter what because they can charge more for tickets and can push  
to get more theaters converted to digital. Film-making or audience  
desires are not a factor in my opinion.

Jeff
---
Jeff Heusser
neonmargarita.com        jeff at neonmargarita.com
fxguide.com   fxphd.com





On May 1, 2009, at 8:39 AM, Jeff Olm wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2201 subscribers as of April 2009
> David Crosthwait supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
>> Coraline is good enough, IMO, that I'm satisfied that the reason no  
>> 3D movies have yet to crack my top 10 is because movies of any sort  
>> which crack my top 10 are incredibly rare, not because 3D movies  
>> would be incapable of doing it.
>
>
> I'd leave a crack to see what James Cameron comes up with for Avatar.
> Weta has been at it for a while now and they have some Oscars under  
> their belt.
> I'm sure all the Kings Horses and all the Kings men will seeing some
> Avatar action around the world this summer.
> best,
> Jeff Olm
> Stereo Colorist
> LA, CA
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com  Fri May  1 20:05:40 2009
From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 12:05:40 -0700
Subject: [Tig] The 3D dream cycle
Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029F0277@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>

Do people dream in 3D? From dreams I've had involving falling or flying I'd guess so. But, is it really 3d?

Do 3d androids dream of 3d electric sheep?  

Craig Nichols
DFT

From stuart.fyvie at mac.com  Fri May  1 20:02:02 2009
From: stuart.fyvie at mac.com (Stuart Fyvie)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 20:02:02 +0100
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
Message-ID: <3D2D0B7E-0AC5-479B-9C31-AB84EA53331B@mac.com>

We took the family to see 'Monsters v. Aliens'. 3D. They loved it and  
had no problems with the glasses.( a 7 and 5 year old).
I thought it was amazing and the best 3D film I've seen. The plot was  
pretty good to with gags to keep adults as well as kids happy.
The animation was astonishing.
  There were quite a lot of 'oohhs' and 'aaaahhs' from the audience.  
The 3D was more about depth rather than poking you in the eye.

The studios love this format because it is impossible to camcorder  
for piracy...(no wait you could cannibalize glasses and use the
filters on the lens, oops....)

What is weird  is that when I 'remember' the film I don't think of it  
in 3D. Kind of like when you remember the colour of a dream.


Well anyway ,I can't wait for 'Avatar' later in the year.


Stuart Fyvie

Senior Colourist
LipSync Post London.



From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  1 20:14:54 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 22:14:54 +0300
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle
In-Reply-To: <3D2D0B7E-0AC5-479B-9C31-AB84EA53331B@mac.com>
References: <3D2D0B7E-0AC5-479B-9C31-AB84EA53331B@mac.com>
Message-ID: <8C77C20E-7F2C-4999-BF89-17376F579A31@colorist.org>


On May 1, 2009, at 10:02 PM, Stuart Fyvie wrote:

> We took the family to see 'Monsters v. Aliens'. 3D. They loved it  
> and had no problems with the glasses.( a 7 and 5 year old).

if this trend continues, and the evolutionary model is applied, humans  
will either eventually be born with the 3D glasses built-in,
or the intra-ocular distance will increase, and we'll look a little  
more like frogs or hawks.   there most certainly will be an adjustment
to the arm angle in newborns, as they won't need more than a few  
degrees with bent elbow to keep the celphone to the ear.
Eventually our brains will house gigahertz tranceivers, with virtually  
unbreakable security, based on chromosomes.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu  Fri May  1 21:48:52 2009
From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 16:48:52 -0400
Subject: [Tig] 3D kvetch
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1061.1241205308.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1061.1241205308.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <f2039b2029ddd.49fb27f4@mail.nyu.edu>

What I find instructive is that the only really good 3D productions thus far have been "cartoons". I find this significant since 1-audiences are much more receptive to an 3d artificial enhanced sense of reality in an artificial vehicle. It is a joyride. 2-In creating an animation it is easier to control camera placement than in live action. Especially if one is using virtual cameras.

As someone else alluded to: No we don't dream or think in 3D,  more like switching multiple angles. 

---Larry 




From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  1 23:28:08 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 01:28:08 +0300
Subject: [Tig] posting statistics
Message-ID: <D45A41C7-AE62-48AA-9EC5-BD510A6708F0@colorist.org>

one thing a sysadm enjoys is generating statistics, lots of 'em.  at  
least it hones
the scripting abilities.  I ran an awk/sed/cut script over the tig  
posting statistics
for the last 8 months and got the following list,  which proves I have  
to stop
posting so much about things like statistics.  And there's a hot  
contest for 3rd
place.




Posting statistics from mailman list  tig at colorist.org

   Starting:  Aug 01 06:40:34
   Ending:    May 01 22:38:19
===
Total posts to the list: 1946
Total SUCCESSFUL posts to the list: 1944
  Total bytes = 6064226

Top 50 posters to the list:
    502 rob at colorist.org,
    121 bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us,
     59 bob at bluescreen.com,
     55 ted at tedlangdell.com,
     53 jpo at prestodigital.ca,
     36 ken at flight4.org,
     35 rob at cinelab.com,
     30 mfw at musictrax.com,
     29 jfmann at optimum.net,
     29 adrian at autotv.co.uk,
     27 carl at stopp.se,
     23 jdhouston at earthlink.net,
     22 grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk,
     21 peter_swinson at compuserve.com,
     19 steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk,
     19 owen at ywwg.com,
     19 craig at optimus.com,
     19 cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net,
     16 richard at filmlight.ltd.uk,
     15 underscan at gmail.com,
     13 mlbnyc at verizon.net,
     13 jeff.booth at ntlworld.com,
     12 terry at finishedit.com,
     12 stn3 at aol.com,
     12 martin-p at moving-picture.com,
     12 cased at atlab.com.au,
     12 btopazio at company3.com,
     11 rob at lingelbach.us,
     11 roblingelbach at gmail.com,
     11 njohnson at sc.rr.com,
     11 bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com,
     10 rlovejoy at comcast.net,
     10 ramona at spectsoft.com,
     10 peter.white at uea.ac.uk,
     10 jeff.olm at gmail.com,
     10 craig.nichols at dft-film.com,
      9 weagles at bigpond.net.au,
      9 somearsehole at hotmail.com,
      9 jeffkreines at mindspring.com,
      9 dcorbitt77 at comcast.net,
      8 mikko.kuutti at kava.fi,
      8 lawrence.towers at nyu.edu,
      8 james_deluca at crestdigital.com,
      8 jack at surrealroad.com,
      8 doctorossi at yahoo.com,
      8 aranysh at mac.com,
      8 alanr at bhphoto.com,
      7 turnto at sbcglobal.net,
      7 steve.simon at snellwilcox.com,
      7 skiadcock at aol.com,
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From ramona at spectsoft.com  Fri May  1 23:36:28 2009
From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 15:36:28 -0700
Subject: [Tig] posting statistics
In-Reply-To: <D45A41C7-AE62-48AA-9EC5-BD510A6708F0@colorist.org>
References: <D45A41C7-AE62-48AA-9EC5-BD510A6708F0@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <200905011536.28635.ramona@spectsoft.com>


> posting so much about things like statistics.  And there's a hot
> contest for 3rd place.

Rob,

Need to give us all numbers like race horses and post a fun little graphical 
display showing this.  Instead of horses make them people though :)
Ah the power of a few cool graphics and a powerful script.

Cheers,
Ramona



-- 
Ramona Howard
Oakdale, Ca 95361
209 847-7812 ext 104
www.spectsoft.com

Co-founder of SpectSoft, makers of the Rave product line.



From ted at tedlangdell.com  Fri May  1 23:34:57 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 15:34:57 -0700
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle--Let's throw in Mark Schubin...
In-Reply-To: <8C77C20E-7F2C-4999-BF89-17376F579A31@colorist.org>
References: <3D2D0B7E-0AC5-479B-9C31-AB84EA53331B@mac.com>
	<8C77C20E-7F2C-4999-BF89-17376F579A31@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <A6575BAD-85AE-42D9-98F9-0FF5FF94D114@tedlangdell.com>

And here's Mark Schubin's take on a Japanese Holographic demo at NAB:

http://www.televisionbroadcast.com/article/79134


Ted Langdell
Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services
Marysville, CA
Main:   (530) 741-1212
Skype: 	TedLangdell

tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative  
Services since 1974






From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  1 23:51:03 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 01:51:03 +0300
Subject: [Tig] posting statistics
In-Reply-To: <200905011536.28635.ramona@spectsoft.com>
References: <D45A41C7-AE62-48AA-9EC5-BD510A6708F0@colorist.org>
	<200905011536.28635.ramona@spectsoft.com>
Message-ID: <E4D91277-7348-40DB-89D7-A4FFA7613558@colorist.org>


On May 2, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Ramona Howard wrote:

> Need to give us all numbers like race horses and post a fun little  
> graphical
> display showing this.  Instead of horses make them people though :)
> Ah the power of a few cool graphics and a powerful script.

that's a great idea.   trouble is, it can induce a feedback loop,  
where posting
about the horses on the track, causes your horse to gain on the pack.

However, doing it on the TIG wiki in a discreet fashion would not  
necessarily
create the feedback.   An oval racetrack is mundane; what would a better
analogy be...  The 24 Years of LeMans?  I can collect the stats back  
to 1992 and
we'd only have 7 years left, but the car icons would be moving pretty  
slowly.
And I'll disqualify myself, so it doesn't become a fait accompli.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From ilampooranan at gmail.com  Sat May  2 09:00:06 2009
From: ilampooranan at gmail.com (ilampooranan)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 13:30:06 +0530
Subject: [Tig] RTC problem in the DUI 888 davinci system
Message-ID: <4dcf01fc0905020100g3bb47cdbo99d3ce2919f1478b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Which telecine you have?.


Regards,

IP


From ken at flight4.org  Sat May  2 15:59:19 2009
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 11:59:19 -0300
Subject: [Tig] posting statistics
In-Reply-To: <E4D91277-7348-40DB-89D7-A4FFA7613558@colorist.org>
References: <D45A41C7-AE62-48AA-9EC5-BD510A6708F0@colorist.org><200905011536.28635.ramona@spectsoft.com>
	<E4D91277-7348-40DB-89D7-A4FFA7613558@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <013d01c9cb36$93779510$6700a8c0@flight4>

And now I ask myself if I should post more or less....

(Disclaiming nothing)

ken robinson

  

Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570





From rob at colorist.org  Sat May  2 17:41:20 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:41:20 +0300
Subject: [Tig] posting statistics
In-Reply-To: <013d01c9cb36$93779510$6700a8c0@flight4>
References: <D45A41C7-AE62-48AA-9EC5-BD510A6708F0@colorist.org><200905011536.28635.ramona@spectsoft.com>
	<E4D91277-7348-40DB-89D7-A4FFA7613558@colorist.org>
	<013d01c9cb36$93779510$6700a8c0@flight4>
Message-ID: <E14C0674-D529-4C8D-8240-AF933182DCB8@colorist.org>

keep the group alive.  make a contribution.

when in doubt about whether or not to post, wait until
morning, and consider signal-to-noise.


On May 2, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:

> And now I ask myself if I should post more or less....

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From underscan at gmail.com  Sat May  2 17:29:30 2009
From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:29:30 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Fwd:  Dreamcolor
References: <5163A4DB-B897-4774-B0EA-F6670B5EF3FE@veralith.com>
Message-ID: <599A9BD8-8469-4F94-8860-E4AEB6F2FBF4@gmail.com>

Hi

Here are the whitepapers on how to set up the Dreamcolor.

cheerz
mark

-------------- next part --------------




>

On Apr 18, 2009, at 5:00 AM, underscan at gmail.com wrote:
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2201 subscribers as of April 2009
> Chuck Harrison supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> Hi
>
> Is anyone here using HPs Dreamcolor and if so
> how did you connect it to your system?
> I´m currently working with SD Pal material so have thought
> of feeding the SDI signal to a converter box and then as Hdmi
> into the Dreamcolor.
>
> But for future and HD projects i´d want to use the 10bit panel.
> So what´s the best way to go for the signal?
>
> Any advice is mostly apprecitated =)
>
> cheerz
> mark
>
>
> --
> underscan films | berlin

From rob at colorist.org  Sat May  2 17:43:29 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:43:29 +0300
Subject: [Tig] Fwd:  Dreamcolor
In-Reply-To: <599A9BD8-8469-4F94-8860-E4AEB6F2FBF4@gmail.com>
References: <5163A4DB-B897-4774-B0EA-F6670B5EF3FE@veralith.com>
	<599A9BD8-8469-4F94-8860-E4AEB6F2FBF4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC9D7526-9E0F-4C4B-9057-97A2939A4EDD@colorist.org>


> Here are the whitepapers on how to set up the Dreamcolor.

Mark, attachments are stripped from postings.   can you submit a URL  
instead?

regards
Rob

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Sat May  2 17:45:28 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 19:45:28 +0300
Subject: [Tig] Fwd:  Dreamcolor
In-Reply-To: <FC9D7526-9E0F-4C4B-9057-97A2939A4EDD@colorist.org>
References: <5163A4DB-B897-4774-B0EA-F6670B5EF3FE@veralith.com>
	<599A9BD8-8469-4F94-8860-E4AEB6F2FBF4@gmail.com>
	<FC9D7526-9E0F-4C4B-9057-97A2939A4EDD@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <A3BE98A5-BDE1-4352-81B5-B09873CF8DD6@colorist.org>


On May 2, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> Mark, attachments are stripped from postings.   can you submit a URL  
> instead?

the TIG wiki is the place for anything larger than 1MB or so.   
consider that there are 2000+
subscribers to the TIG, and the load on my server + the load on the  
net.   thanks.


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From lnmag at yahoo.com  Sat May  2 17:53:58 2009
From: lnmag at yahoo.com (lnmag at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 09:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tig] RTC problem in the DUI 888 davinci system
Message-ID: <799818.54116.qm@web50102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Hi all,
This is good question,
 
What do you know about the french one??

LM


Le 2 mai 09 à 09:00, ilampooranan <ilampooranan at gmail.com> a écrit :

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Gary Adams supports the TIG.
====


Hi,

Which telecine you have?.


Regards,

IP
_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



      



From rob at colorist.org  Sat May  2 18:31:22 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 20:31:22 +0300
Subject: [Tig] NAB photos
Message-ID: <4C6C2CA8-0718-4173-8ADC-2834E62634F4@colorist.org>

Some photos shot at NAB are available as a link on the main TIG wiki  
page.

Rob
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Sat May  2 18:39:31 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 20:39:31 +0300
Subject: [Tig] RTC problem in the DUI 888 davinci system
In-Reply-To: <799818.54116.qm@web50102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <799818.54116.qm@web50102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD99643-8E92-4B84-9BF9-F8957B1B6815@colorist.org>

Hello LM and IP,

just wanted to ask you to identify yourselves a little less succinctly  
in your
postings, we prefer names and if possible companies or institutions in  
your
signatures.

I think, since the original title was "RTC problem in the DUI 888  
davinci system"
that the question applied to that subject.

IP,  can you describe to LM and perhaps to SK, RL,  not to mention
the UN, how the question relates to the subject?    :)

regards
Rob    TIG admin/founder

On May 2, 2009, at 7:53 PM, lnmag at yahoo.com wrote:

> Hi all,
> This is good question,
>
> What do you know about the french one??
>
> LM
>
>
> Le 2 mai 09 à 09:00, ilampooranan <ilampooranan at gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Gary Adams supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Which telecine you have?.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> IP

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk  Sat May  2 21:58:51 2009
From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 21:58:51 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle--Let's throw in Mark Schubin...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1077.1241285702.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1077.1241285702.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <21656.10.44.0.4.1241297931.squirrel@alto.filmlight.ltd.uk>

Back in the 1970's we thought the Russians had cracked projection
holography. I believe they could show something that showed 3D to an
audience without glasses, but the 'film' only ran for 90 seconds.

You can do this sort of thing without holography. The 3D postcard images
use an array of cylindrical lenses to deliver different views to either
eye. It is possible to arrange the viewers so that more than one person
can see the 3D image, but this rapidly gets tricky or impossible  if you
are trying to give an image to a small theater.

However, supposing you have a holographic screen, so that the light from
one projector goes to the right-hand side of every seat in the audience.
Suppose you manage to reach the left-hand side of each seat in the same
way but with a different image. This would give everyone who sat properly
in their seats the 3D effect, but necking couples in the back row might
get the images reversed. This is not 'holography' as we usually know it,
but using holograhic techniques to direct light in a structured way within
a theater - our two eyes are still getting a fixed stereo view. If you  
stood on your head, or lay on your side then the projection system might
not bother to cope.

Face recognition technology is good at recognizing eyes and noses. We
could identify all the eyes in a theater. If there were means to make an
adaptive holographic screen, we could send the left and right images to
the right regions on the faces we see. Instead of using about four times
as much light to produce a 3D image (two separate channels and 50% loss in
polarizing), we would end up using less light, the contrast ration in the
cinema would improve, and we could use the extra light to make the images
more intense and colorful by the Stevens effect.

Sounds cool. But first, we need our adaptive holographic screen...

Cheers.
Richard Kirk (in rare non-3d-curmudgeon mode)
-- 
FilmLight Ltd.     Tel: +44-(0)20-7292-0400 or -0409-224 (direct)
Artists House,     Fax: +44-(0)20-7292-0401
14-15 Manette Street
London W1D 4AP, UK






From Stn3 at aol.com  Sat May  2 21:00:34 2009
From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 13:00:34 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
Message-ID: <3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>

This phenomena is what happens when there is "cross-over" between the 3
layers of the color stock. As the density of the titles changes (as in fade
outs or fade ins), the D Log E curves change their positions relative to one
another. It is not unusual for the blue curve to be 10 to 15 points higher
in the toe, and then be 10 to 15 points lower in the shoulder. The curves
are only in sync with one another on what is known as the straight line
portion.

The second reason this happens is because optical houses sometimes use black
and white film elements to insert titles over the color stock background. To
color stock, black and white film elements are not neutral, but because they
are "burned into" the final image, the titles appear white. There is also an
interaction that occurs when black and white stock is exposed to color stock
in printing that causes the lower densities to turn green, cyan or sometimes
blue.

Technology has help to reduce these effects so that titles of modern films
do not suffer from these problems quite as much. Older titles - even if
printed on new intermediates - contain quite a bit of this type of
cross-over effect, and the problem is even more intense when fading has
occurred.

It has been my experience that rebalancing the Telecine for the titles
frequently reduces or eliminates this problem. As a colorist, I always tried
to correct this problem in Telecine either in rebalancing or using secondary
color correction.

Tom Nottingham

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Marc Wielage
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 11:32 AM

Yeah, this is an artifact from optical generations going back a long time.
I believe the problem is that when super-white titles burn through the dupe
neg stock, it goes right through to the orange backing.  

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From videogenie at aol.com  Sun May  3 12:47:09 2009
From: videogenie at aol.com (videogenie at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 07:47:09 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Diamond THANK YOU
Message-ID: <8CB99FC0687E2C9-2E4-309D@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com>

I want to thank everyone for all the responders to my request for a TELECINE TURN KEY ROOM... once we have decided we will get back to you///(middle may)
Please note who ever we deal with we request that they too make a donation to the TIG for all the service they do and have done for our Benefit... THANKS ROB


?*)o(* bls
barry shankman,ceo
mystix moon production distribution
bls film & video llc
www.mystixmoon.com
(video email and conference)
www.tokbox.com/bls


EMAIL CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: 

This email message, including any attachments, is intended for the sole viewing 
and use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain 
confidential and privileged information, which is prohibited from disclosure. 
Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, distribution, or the taking of any 
action in reliance on the information contained in this email, including 
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hereby notified that any dissemination or copy of this message, or any 
attachment, is strictly prohibited. If you have received a copy of this email 
in error, please notify the sender by reply email immediately, and remove all 
copies of the original message, including attachments, from your computer.

Thank You


From rob at colorist.org  Sun May  3 13:48:19 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 15:48:19 +0300
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <62AB8A7A-A68A-451B-A72A-7F4121F492B0@colorist.org>


On May 2, 2009, at 11:00 PM, S. T. Nottingham III wrote:

> happens when there is "cross-over" between the 3
> layers of the color stock. As the density of the titles changes (as  
> in fade
> outs or fade ins), the D Log E curves change their positions  
> relative to one

I've had good luck solving this problem by engaging at least 2 or 3  
dynamics,
because of the color ramping that occurs within the title whites; i.e.  
I'm
compensating for what are essentially built-in dynamics on the film.   
It can
be tricky but the challenge makes it fun.


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Sun May  3 14:09:20 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:09:20 +0300
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>


On May 2, 2009, at 11:00 PM, S. T. Nottingham III wrote:
>
> This phenomena is what happens when there is "cross-over" between  
> the 3

When I started this thread it was to answer a question that plagued  
me:  why,
in a particular spot on my reel, does the fadeout look non-linear-   
that is to
say, the whites in the fadeout remain clipped as it fades to black.   
The fade was
done in Final Cut.  As Marc Wielage pointed out, the fade is linear,  
but that's
not what bothers me- it's the constant clipping that occurs as it goes  
to black.

Please note, this is not an attempt at self-promotion in having to  
look at my
reel; I don't currently have a way to cut down the reel to just this  
section
(my FCP is inoperative right now).  I entertain opinions on why the  
fadeout
seems to compress the whites and bring the color/luminance curve down in
a nonlinear fashion.

The reel is at http://reels.colorist.org/reel.html   and the exact  
section to which
I refer starts at 4:21 and lasts until black at 4:23.

appreciate all opinions.


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Sun May  3 14:13:25 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:13:25 +0300
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
	<377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <75A5DE2E-B487-4663-813E-475A2AD2EC7D@colorist.org>


On May 3, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>   As Marc Wielage pointed out, the fade is linear, but that's
> not what bothers me- it's the constant clipping that occurs as it  
> goes to black.

I meant to say that Marc pointed out the fadeout is linear in time.   
My question is
the nonlinearity of the color response in the fadeout.   excuse the  
omission.


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sun May  3 16:25:48 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 10:25:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
	<377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sun, 3 May 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> When I started this thread it was to answer a question that plagued 
> me:  why, in a particular spot on my reel, does the fadeout look 
> non-linear- that is to say, the whites in the fadeout remain clipped 
> as it fades to black.  The fade was done in Final Cut.  As Marc 
> Wielage pointed out, the fade is linear, but that's not what bothers 
> me- it's the constant clipping that occurs as it goes to black.

If there is constant clipping, it is likely because the clipping 
existed in the first place.  If there is no headroom and the working 
content was already clipped to visible range, then this clipping would 
be evident as it is scaled down to black.

Video sourced content like Rec.709 is already clipped by definition. 
Film-based content could be clipped if the software used is designed 
for video or "computer" type applications and does not preserve the 
original range.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From Stn3 at aol.com  Sun May  3 17:26:09 2009
From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 09:26:09 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <75A5DE2E-B487-4663-813E-475A2AD2EC7D@colorist.org>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local>
	<C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com><3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP><377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
	<75A5DE2E-B487-4663-813E-475A2AD2EC7D@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <22EB2EFAB0914B86A79AEB9D93556FD3@DESKTOP>

Actually, the photographic dissolve or fade to black is fairly linear. As
most of you know, dissolves occur by changing the exposure in even exposure
increments (usually 40 frames). To the film, this proves to be fairly linear
along the straight-line portion of the curves. Photographly, as density
falls to base+fog, the image simply disappears. In Telecine, the image
becomes compressed against the baseline. Conversely, as density increases,
it compresses against the white clip at 102 units IRE. In film, it falls to
the shoulder of the curve where it becomes very non-linear and eventually
reaches "burn-out" on the film.

It is the nature of the TV signal, and the Telecine in particular that
results in what you are seeing. The best way to handle this problem is to
raise the blacks (upstream and downstream) while applying a fade to black
downstream. This reduces (although not totally eliminating) the apparent
compression of the blacks against the baseline.

Rob is correct that when a fade to black changes color as it progresses,
several dynamic corrections back-to-back can reduce or eliminate the
problem. Any feature colorist will tell you this is SOP.

Tom Nottingham

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 6:13 AM
To: Rob Lingelbach
Cc: tig at colorist.org Group
Subject: Re: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Gary Adams supports the TIG.
 ====



On May 3, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>   As Marc Wielage pointed out, the fade is linear, but that's
> not what bothers me- it's the constant clipping that occurs as it  
> goes to black.

I meant to say that Marc pointed out the fadeout is linear in time.   
My question is
the nonlinearity of the color response in the fadeout.   excuse the  
omission.


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org


_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Mon May  4 10:19:05 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 10:19:05 +0100
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
	<377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk>


On May 3, 2009, at 16:25, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> Video sourced content like Rec.709 is already clipped by definition.

What do you mean?

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From andreas at smalfilm.no  Mon May  4 11:58:19 2009
From: andreas at smalfilm.no (=?us-ascii?Q?Andreas_Wideroe?=)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:58:19 +0200
Subject: [Tig] 16mm sepmag audio - Who can digitize them?
Message-ID: <1E08BDA1564A4244AD9C903944BEACFE@kontoret>

Hi,

We need some help on a project here...

We have a client who has about 950 meters Sepmag 16mm audio (on 6
different cores/reels). We need to digitize them to either Wav files
on a harddrive or to a miniDV/DVCam tape.

Who in Europe can do this on short notice? Our client needs them
back in 4 weeks...

Look forward to your replies!

Best,
Andreas

 
---
Norsk Smalfilm AS <post at smalfilm.no>
http://www.smalfilm.no

Filmshooting | Com - http://www.filmshooting.com

Tel:	(+47) 38 17 99 16
Fax:	(+47) 38 02 33 84




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sun May  3 19:09:45 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 13:09:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <22EB2EFAB0914B86A79AEB9D93556FD3@DESKTOP>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local>
	<C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com><3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP><377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
	<75A5DE2E-B487-4663-813E-475A2AD2EC7D@colorist.org>
	<22EB2EFAB0914B86A79AEB9D93556FD3@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031234410.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sun, 3 May 2009, S. T. Nottingham III wrote:
>
> It is the nature of the TV signal, and the Telecine in particular that
> results in what you are seeing. The best way to handle this problem is to

To clarify things further, there are quite a few different ways to 
reduce the brightness of an image.  The most obvious way is to take 
the red, green, and blue, and simply divide them down to smaller and 
smaller ratios of the original.  It turns out that this does not work 
well since it does not fit how we perceive color, and because RGB is 
device specific color.  A more sophisticated way is to convert the RGB 
to an alternate colorspace which purports to independently represent 
brightness ("luma") the way we see it, make the adjustment, and then 
convert back to RGB.

Some common colorspaces which represent luma:

   YCbCr ("YUV")
   YIQ
   CIELUV
   CIELAB
   HSL
   HWB

It does not take much thought to see that if we were to choose YCbCr 
(as used in video) that everything falls apart if we independently 
adjust the luma parameter since Cb and Cr are simple differences from 
it and we can't scale luma without also scaling Cb and Cr, which ends 
up being the same result as if we had directly scaled RGB.

HSL and HWB are quite popular for adjusting brightness and color in 
image processing programs since they provide a convenient interface 
that users can understand.  CIELUV and CIELAB provide more advanced 
models which allow adjusting brightness with an absolute minimum 
impact to perceived color.

Unfortunately, with all of these, if the image is not full dynamic 
range and is clipped to white, then there is a mathematical disconnect 
and it is likely that colors near white (and definitely above white) 
will not be represented accurately, which will become apparent as the 
brightness is significantly reduced.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon May  4 15:03:57 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 09:03:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
	<377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905040857390.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 4 May 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:

>
> On May 3, 2009, at 16:25, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>
>> Video sourced content like Rec.709 is already clipped by definition.
>
> What do you mean?

It offers little dynamic range, the content is mapped to the normal 
"visible" region (i.e. ready to view) and while there is the 
possibility to pass some data above the white clipping point, it is 
not assured to be preserved.  Rec.709 is a WYSIWYG type format.

In contrast, Kodak Cineon Log offers considerable dynamic range and 
detail above the white point and EXR's floating point offers true HDR.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Mon May  4 17:13:42 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:13:42 +0100
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905040857390.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
	<377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905040857390.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <8674B009-A0DA-4A9E-8F41-4E5929D3B5FF@autotv.co.uk>


On May 4, 2009, at 15:03, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 3, 2009, at 16:25, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>>
>>> Video sourced content like Rec.709 is already clipped by definition.
>>
>> What do you mean?
>
> It offers little dynamic range, the content is mapped to the normal  
> "visible" region (i.e. ready to view) and while there is the  
> possibility to pass some data above the white clipping point, it is  
> not assured to be preserved.  Rec.709 is a WYSIWYG type format.


Band-limited certainly, but hardly "clipped by definition". Working  
within the limits of a format isn't that onerous a task, after all.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon May  4 18:22:15 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 12:22:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <8674B009-A0DA-4A9E-8F41-4E5929D3B5FF@autotv.co.uk>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local> <C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com>
	<3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP>
	<377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905040857390.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<8674B009-A0DA-4A9E-8F41-4E5929D3B5FF@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041217460.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 4 May 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
> Band-limited certainly, but hardly "clipped by definition". Working within 
> the limits of a format isn't that onerous a task, after all.

If the content is not "clipped by definition", where do you suppose 
that the rest of it went to? :-)

Rob had posted that he noticed odd color distortions during fade to 
black and I tried to provide some technical reasoning why this can 
occur (one of which is that the color samples may have been 
"clipped").

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From pmendelson at ascentmedia.com  Mon May  4 19:34:58 2009
From: pmendelson at ascentmedia.com (Phil Mendelson)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 11:34:58 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041217460.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <C6248362.C72E%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>

Content that is created in Rec 709 space (or properly adapted to it) is not
clipped by nature.  It may have certain limitations, in dynamic range,
gamut, bit depth, etc., but that does not mean it is clipped.  Best to check
your definitions on this one.

Phil 


On 5/4/09 10:22 AM, "Bob Friesenhahn" <bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Gary Adams supports the TIG.
>  ====
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>> >
>> > Band-limited certainly, but hardly "clipped by definition". Working within
>> > the limits of a format isn't that onerous a task, after all.
> 
> If the content is not "clipped by definition", where do you suppose
> that the rest of it went to? :-)
> 
> Rob had posted that he noticed odd color distortions during fade to
> black and I tried to provide some technical reasoning why this can
> occur (one of which is that the color samples may have been
> "clipped").
> 
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
> 
> 





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon May  4 20:02:02 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 14:02:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <C624819B.C729%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>
References: <C624819B.C729%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041358030.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 4 May 2009, Phil Mendelson wrote:

> Content that is created in Rec 709 space (or properly adapted to it) is not
> clipped by nature.  It may have certain limitations, in dynamic range,
> gamut, bit depth, etc., but that does not mean it is clipped.  Best to check
> your definitions on this one.

What is your definition of "clipped"?  To me, "clipped" means that a 
portion of the actual scene range is beyond the limits of the capture 
range.  Some might call this "saturated", but saturation is something 
that happens to a sensor and does not happen to light in the real 
world.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon May  4 21:13:51 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:13:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <C6248D4E.C73A%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>
References: <C6248D4E.C73A%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041511120.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 4 May 2009, Phil Mendelson wrote:

> Nope...that is not automatically the case.
> Telecine, for years, has involved the MAPPING of a medium with wide gamut
> and dynamic range to another of reduced range.  To a Colorist that knows
> what they are doing, there is no clipping involved in that.

This is not Rec.709.  By definition, Rec.709 is prepared to feed a TV. 
It is a very closely defined standard.

A modified signal is something else.  Maybe it will use the same 
primaries (or not).

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon May  4 21:57:17 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 15:57:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <C6249BF2.C745%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>
References: <C6249BF2.C745%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041551380.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 4 May 2009, Phil Mendelson wrote:
>
> Clipping is the truncation of values above or below fixed upper and lower
> limits.  Colorists will not let that happen other than for effect.  To
> repeat, Rec 709 will not inherently do that.

Rec 709 is an interface specification which provides for the 
truncation of values above or below fixed upper and lower limits.  It 
is an electrical interface specification which specifies timings, 
colorspace transforms (YCbCr luma & primaries), and limits.  Have you 
read it?

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From pmendelson at ascentmedia.com  Mon May  4 21:19:46 2009
From: pmendelson at ascentmedia.com (Phil Mendelson)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 13:19:46 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041511120.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <C6249BF2.C745%pmendelson@ascentmedia.com>

Evidently the system munched my previous reply but......

What?????!!!!!

What in the world do you think HD Telecine is?  Rec 709 is what we live by
so far as HD Post for Broadcast is concerned

Clipping is the truncation of values above or below fixed upper and lower
limits.  Colorists will not let that happen other than for effect.  To
repeat, Rec 709 will not inherently do that.

On 5/4/09 1:13 PM, "Bob Friesenhahn" <bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> wrote:

> On Mon, 4 May 2009, Phil Mendelson wrote:
> 
>> > Nope...that is not automatically the case.
>> > Telecine, for years, has involved the MAPPING of a medium with wide gamut
>> > and dynamic range to another of reduced range.  To a Colorist that knows
>> > what they are doing, there is no clipping involved in that.
> 
> This is not Rec.709.  By definition, Rec.709 is prepared to feed a TV.
> It is a very closely defined standard.
> 
> A modified signal is something else.  Maybe it will use the same
> primaries (or not).
> 
> Bob
> --
> Bob Friesenhahn
> bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
> GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
> 
> 




From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk  Mon May  4 19:52:45 2009
From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 19:52:45 +0100
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041217460.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local>
	<C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com><3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP><377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org><Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org><C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk><Pine.SOC.4.64.0905040857390.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org><8674B009-A0DA-4A9E-8F41-4E5929D3B5FF@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041217460.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE2F@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Of course, there's another very common and obvious cause that can be
seen if you try to use a grading system or a telecine to fade to black
(or chase an optical fade with the intention of ending up with true
black rather than film black) and that's simply the black balance offset
you've applied to make the picture neutral.

This can be demonstrated very easily with your handy local flying-spot
telecine and bit of red, faded film. :)  Stick the bit of film half in
the gate, then bring the whites out of clipping with the gain control
and balance the black end with the lift control to produce a neutral
picture.

Now simply turn the gain down. You might expect that the whites would
stay neutral, but instead they probably go green as they get lower. This
is because you're on a gain-before-lift system and you've just pushed a
lot of green lift into the system to counter the orangey faded film. If
you were on a gain-after-lift system (such as some digital colour
correctors), the image would indeed stay neutral.

As another poster has already noted, SOP is to put dynamics into the
fade to alter both the lift and the gain controls to ensure that the
fade stays neutral rather than (as in this case - or the case of any
white captions that might have been on the faded film) going green. And,
as usual, SOP is only as good as the operator or the time he's got to do
the job!  ;)

 
Steve Roberts
Senior Post Production Engineer
>BBC Studios and Post Production 
>
>020 857 64556
>Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>
www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com

BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
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Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
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From rob at colorist.org  Mon May  4 22:28:33 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 00:28:33 +0300
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE2F@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <op.us7wirxm1lsv1e@shake9.local>
	<C6208E24.11153%mfw@musictrax.com><3CA67806B6534221860482335B299A5A@DESKTOP><377481D3-898A-460A-A604-6693AD52F3BA@colorist.org><Pine.SOC.4.64.0905031018490.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org><C29CF1CB-020F-4958-A606-6FBFAF0373F5@autotv.co.uk><Pine.SOC.4.64.0905040857390.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org><8674B009-A0DA-4A9E-8F41-4E5929D3B5FF@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905041217460.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE2F@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <98A8C349-4F20-4090-8A09-CF6DBF3C4824@colorist.org>


On May 4, 2009, at 9:52 PM, Steve Roberts - Post Production wrote:

> As another poster has already noted, SOP is to put dynamics into the
> fade to alter both the lift and the gain controls to ensure that the
> fade stays neutral rather than (as in this case - or the case of any
> white captions that might have been on the faded film) going green.

an easy way to do this on the DaVinci, as an example, is to use instead
of the RGB primary gain control, to use the LUM gain instead, and  
combine
that with decreasing the SAT in the dynamic.   Still might take more  
than
one dynamic (dissolve) but it's very fast and often effective.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Mon May  4 22:41:10 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 00:41:10 +0300
Subject: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second
Message-ID: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>

 From the Opinion page of the New York Times:

"The next test of the F.C.C.’s regime will come soon enough, as the  
Supreme Court has agreed to review the commission’s $550,000 fine  
against CBS for a nine-sixteenths-of-a-second exposure of Janet  
Jackson’s breast during the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show."

This might be my mistake on not being up on slow-motion frame rates  
(though I presume the incident was not done with replay),
but how does the frame rate of the video in question divide into  
sixteenths of a second?  It seems to indicate there was motion within
one of the frames, or that the video was shot at a frame rate  
divisible by 16.

(not to glorify the absolute, extreme and nauseous tawdriness of this  
senseless and criminal act by Ms. Jackson, but if it had been
one frame, would there have been less of a ruckus?  where do you draw  
the line at number of frames, and wouldn't we all be
happier at double-Showscan?)

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Tue May  5 00:19:55 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 02:19:55 +0300
Subject: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second
In-Reply-To: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>
References: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>

if it was shot at 24 interlace, then 13 frames and 1 field would equal  
9/16?
woke up in the middle of the night with that thought.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk  Tue May  5 08:56:01 2009
From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:56:01 +0100
Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1093.1241472527.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1093.1241472527.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <49FFF111.9060705@filmlight.ltd.uk>

Is rec709 'clipped'?

In digital terms it is not more 'clipped' then conventional log RGBwhich 
go from 0-1023. The difference is in how the colors reach the limit at 
the top end. Film log RGB flattens off gracefully as you get to the 
'toe' of the print stock exposure curve, so you can have highlights that 
clip but still look pleasing. Video, on the other hand, has a luminance 
curve that gets steeper and steeper until it whacks into the limit, 
which can give you rend and yellow bands around your highlights as the 
red, green. and blue channels saturate in turn.

This does not mean there is anything 'wrong' with video as such: it is 
just a standard for processed image data. It was originally designed to 
keep your color telly simple and cheap (simple and cheap when compared 
to a 1950's computer, that is). On the other hand 'log' is a working 
standard with the handy property that you can grade images up and down 
and fetch data from the highlights or the shadows. To some extent you 
can fetch a bit back from the beyond-legal video range when you edit, 
but you still slam visually into the upper limit.

Cheers.
Richard Kirk




From BTopazio at company3.com  Tue May  5 13:27:28 2009
From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 08:27:28 -0400
Subject: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second
In-Reply-To: <9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>
References: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>
	<9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC634023C5620@harbor250ex2.corp.ad>

I'd be curious to see how the court measured and determined that.
Anybody have a reference?

It may also have to do with the MPEG stream after encoding for
broadcast- after all the "damage" is what was presented to the viewer (I
know I was damaged, having to watch that boob... and I mean Timberlake),
not the master capture.  Maybe there's some funny math going on with I
and B frame assessments.


Bill Topazio
Engineering
COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 7:20 PM
To: tig at colorist.org Group
Subject: Re: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Gary Adams supports the TIG.
 ====


if it was shot at 24 interlace, then 13 frames and 1 field would equal  
9/16?
woke up in the middle of the night with that thought.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org


_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From owen at ywwg.com  Tue May  5 13:38:38 2009
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:38:38 -0400
Subject: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second
In-Reply-To: <9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>
References: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>
	<9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <1241527118.25070.13.camel@ywwg>

On Tue, 2009-05-05 at 02:19 +0300, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> if it was shot at 24 interlace, then 13 frames and 1 field would equal  
> 9/16?
> woke up in the middle of the night with that thought.


I've never seen a sporting event not broadcast at full frame rate so I
think it's more likely to be a misprint of 9/15ths (or 18 frames).  It
seems whenever I read something in the popular press about a subject
with which I'm familiar, I notice mistakes, omissions, and bad
explanations.  Friends of mine have the same observation, and it appears
to hold true for everyone no matter what field their expertise is.

owen




From rob at colorist.org  Tue May  5 18:27:24 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 20:27:24 +0300
Subject: [Tig] new NAB photos, classfieds.
Message-ID: <62BDAAAD-9B0D-46FB-B9DC-2C95A76B37A2@colorist.org>

see the TIG wiki.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Tue May  5 18:53:00 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 20:53:00 +0300
Subject: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second
In-Reply-To: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC634023C5620@harbor250ex2.corp.ad>
References: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>
	<9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>
	<8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC634023C5620@harbor250ex2.corp.ad>
Message-ID: <822E7673-42B3-4A3D-BEF3-DF95228995F6@colorist.org>

can someone refer me to a URL that would render the highest resolution  
possible on the
web for this 9/16 clip?

I never saw it.    I'm sure it was resolutely mundane, and that the  
only thing
I have to associate it with is several Supreme Court Justices crowding  
around
a 1960s Admiral (80 year olds don't grok HD) and extending somewhat
shaky fingers at the available body of facts.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Tue May  5 19:16:59 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 13:16:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] nine sixteenths of a second
In-Reply-To: <822E7673-42B3-4A3D-BEF3-DF95228995F6@colorist.org>
References: <B892281D-EF06-4556-AFC4-AAA03DD8383F@colorist.org>
	<9E2C6865-BC9A-4315-A3E9-27DEA1237472@colorist.org>
	<8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC634023C5620@harbor250ex2.corp.ad>
	<822E7673-42B3-4A3D-BEF3-DF95228995F6@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905051312050.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Tue, 5 May 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> can someone refer me to a URL that would render the highest 
> resolution possible on the web for this 9/16 clip?
>
> I never saw it.    I'm sure it was resolutely mundane, and that the only

A number of months back I was curious and used Google image search to 
find the shot.  I would have to say that the image did not exactly fit 
"resolutely mundane" since Ms Jackson was wearing some sort of black 
leather S&M style outfit and a strategically placed piercing was 
exposed which matched the style of the overall outfit but was 
decidedly unladylike and looked rather uncomfortable.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From sgr at sgraae.net  Wed May  6 10:50:53 2009
From: sgr at sgraae.net (sofus graae)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 11:50:53 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Novice colorist reel material
Message-ID: <B036156A-E98E-4E69-A1FB-F3BAC37240FC@sgraae.net>


Hey TIGers,

Long time follower, new to posting.

I recently finished reading both Hullfish's "Digital Color Correction"  
and Bellatoni's "If it's purple someone gonna die" and is eager to  
pursue a career as a colorist - and is currently working on a reel.

I have previous experience with General 3D and Compositing where I  
also did a lot of color work but would like to expand my reel to  
include specific color work.

I was curious about reel material for a novice colorist - would it be  
a good idea to purchase un-graded clips to work on
and if so is there different scenarios that I should work with, such  
as; scene matching from various sources, day-night, skin tones.?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.



Best,

Sofus Graae
Compositing & 3D
-
Mail: sgr at sgraae.net
Skype: sofusgr
-
Web: www.sgraae.net



From carl at stopp.se  Fri May  8 08:22:36 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 09:22:36 +0200
Subject: [Tig] World map, google earth
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>

Hi All

I was by the daVinci HQ last week and saw a world map with pins showing what system they have at different location around the world.
I was wondering if anyone board ever took the time to do one like that on GoogleEarth.

It would be cool to actually do a GoogleEarth-map showing (in layers) were, lets say, all Resolve, 2K+, 888, Luster, Flame, BaseLight, Spirit, DiTTo, Arri Laser, Arri Scanner, Nucoda, Scratch, RedOne, 35mm-Camera, 16mm-Camera, Avid, FCP etc etc are in the world.

That way if all users/selesmen would put there "Pins" in the right city/location you could actually easy see the spread of different stuff.
For example, it would be interesting to the the demografical spread on Red in the world compare to 35mm-Cameras. Or Scratch compared to Red. Or traditional Telecine compared to Data-scannes without video-options.

So if there is a board google-earth-geek out there with some free time. Feel free to start the treasure map. You can call it the "TiG-Map" (Telecine In Google-Map).

I would gues some salemen/head-of-marketing for some companies already done a map for themself. Maybe willing to share it!?


/carl


Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22


From carl at stopp.se  Fri May  8 11:08:10 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:08:10 +0200
Subject: [Tig] ColorSpace for RedOne when Grading
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E32021F@exchange.stopp.se>

So the never ending Red questions:

Now that a lot of systems are supporting Red "nativly" I gues more experienced colorist (that read this) are grading Red more now, and are forming there opinion about it.

I was wondering what you think about ColorSpace setting!? What do you guys think about RedSpace/CameraRGB/Rec709?

>From tests I've done before, and also from reading forums, I prefer RedSpace.
But this week I did a test with a shot that had a logo in the background containing 20 different colors. And the client had a reference.
By my big surprise we got a lot better result using the Rec709 ColorSpace rather then RedSpace ColorSpace. 

Bare in mind I not talking about RedSpace/Rec709/RedLog/PdLog witch is a "Gamma Setting". The control I'm talking about is the
ColorSpace-setting (also called by some "Colormatrix" I gues, kind of similar to "Masking" on a Spirit Telecine)


I just bought Gamma&Desity's test-chart what has colors that should, when filmed with a Digital Camera, match the vectors on a 
scope in both angle and saturation. That should show some really good testresults, I'll report back with what I find out.

(I know a lot of you will claim it all depend on what I'm viewing on. I'm always grading on a Sony BWM 20" CRT. And my target is normal TV, 
usaly SD 625 "pal". No LUT applied. But even if you are going out to film I think you would choose the same ColorSpace setting. Cus they are 
extremely different from eachother Rec709 and RedSpace.)

/carl


Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22


From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  8 12:46:08 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 14:46:08 +0300
Subject: [Tig] World map, google earth
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <B0BDC7B6-7C22-4590-B35E-175D72FF5A75@colorist.org>


On May 8, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Carl Skaff wrote:
>
>
> It would be cool to actually do a GoogleEarth-map showing (in  
> layers) were, lets say, all Resolve, 2K+, 888, Luster, Flame,  
> BaseLight, Spirit, DiTTo, Arri Laser, Arri Scanner, Nucoda, Scratch,  
> RedOne, 35mm-Camera, 16mm-Camera, Avid, FCP etc etc are in the world.

Hi Carl,

we already have googlemaps on the TIG wiki, it would be easy for me to  
create the wiki code for GoogleEarth.

But keep in mind that though we've had the Facility Page for about a  
year, we probably only have about a 30% participation
factor.   However, when you're talking about direct sales competition,  
the GoogleEarth plugin might attract more interest.


> So if there is a board google-earth-geek out there with some free  
> time. Feel free to start the treasure map. You can call it the "TiG- 
> Map" (Telecine In Google-Map).

consider it accepted by your TIG administrator.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri May  8 12:49:50 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:49:50 +0100
Subject: [Tig] World map, google earth
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <B1FFFE91-5036-4095-90AD-552086558398@autotv.co.uk>

> On 8 May 2009, at 08:22, Carl Skaff wrote:
>>
>> It would be cool to actually do a GoogleEarth-map showing (in  
>> layers) were, lets say, all Resolve, 2K+, 888, Luster, Flame,  
>> BaseLight, Spirit, DiTTo, Arri Laser, Arri Scanner, Nucoda,  
>> Scratch, RedOne, 35mm-Camera, 16mm-Camera, Avid, FCP etc etc are  
>> in the world.
>>


You'd just end up with zillions of 'pins' in LA, and the rest in  
London, NY, Paris etc.
--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--

>
>




From rob at colorist.org  Fri May  8 13:02:25 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:02:25 +0300
Subject: [Tig] World map, google earth
In-Reply-To: <B1FFFE91-5036-4095-90AD-552086558398@autotv.co.uk>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>
	<B1FFFE91-5036-4095-90AD-552086558398@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <C18110EB-37A6-4736-82A4-A658093B1654@colorist.org>


On May 8, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote:

> You'd just end up with zillions of 'pins' in LA, and the rest in  
> London, NY, Paris etc.

on one level that's true.  but did you know there is a color  
correction system in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada?
or one in Saigon?    or.....    that you can zoom in and find exactly  
where in Culver City the new post house
with the latest 8K scanner will be, who will be running it....

this will be fun to program, and I've already got a head start with  
the Google API, as done with GoogleMaps
for any entry on the wiki (see the calendar entries for example).

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From carl at stopp.se  Fri May  8 16:52:53 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 17:52:53 +0200
Subject: [Tig] World map, google earth
In-Reply-To: <C18110EB-37A6-4736-82A4-A658093B1654@colorist.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320218@exchange.stopp.se>
	<B1FFFE91-5036-4095-90AD-552086558398@autotv.co.uk>,
	<C18110EB-37A6-4736-82A4-A658093B1654@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E320223@exchange.stopp.se>

Well, we could just skip LA/NY/London/Paris all together then ;)
But for the of the world it might be interesting.

/carl


Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22
________________________________________
From: Rob Lingelbach [rob at colorist.org]
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 14:02
To: Adrian Thomas
Cc: Carl Skaff; tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] World map, google earth

On May 8, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote:

> You'd just end up with zillions of 'pins' in LA, and the rest in
> London, NY, Paris etc.

on one level that's true.  but did you know there is a color
correction system in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada?
or one in Saigon?    or.....    that you can zoom in and find exactly
where in Culver City the new post house
with the latest 8K scanner will be, who will be running it....

this will be fun to program, and I've already got a head start with
the Google API, as done with GoogleMaps
for any entry on the wiki (see the calendar entries for example).

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk  Sun May 10 15:49:44 2009
From: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk (Simon Burley)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:49:44 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Tig] ColorSpace for RedOne when Grading
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E32021F@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA4725373E32021F@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <2098.195.149.48.251.1241966984.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk>

On Fri, May 8, 2009 11:08 am, Carl Skaff wrote:

> By my big surprise we got a lot better result using the Rec709
ColorSpace
> rather then RedSpace ColorSpace.

If you're viewing them on your Sony BVM with no further downstream
processing after your grading system then it's not really a surprise - the
709 output of Redcine will more accurately reflect the colourimetry of
your monitor.

My understanding is that 'camera rgb' is the native colourimetry of the
Red One with no matrix applied, Rec709 matrixes the colour into something
that will display accurately on a broadcast monitor and RedSpace is Red's
attempt at a wide-gamut colourspace.



Simon

-- 
Simon Burley
RPS Film Imaging Ltd
** Please note new telephone number below **
T: +44 (0) 208 661 9900
M: +44 (0) 7702 732 655
e: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk






From jfmann at optimum.net  Mon May 11 00:28:09 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:28:09 -0400
Subject: [Tig] NY SMPTE NAB Rap UP!
In-Reply-To: <C54497A9-23AA-4A5F-ACB3-B2E2C130AEEB@bigpond.net.au>
References: <mailman.985.1240967976.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<C54497A9-23AA-4A5F-ACB3-B2E2C130AEEB@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <000001c9d1c6$fac7fcf0$f057f6d0$@net>

Hi All,

I have updated The TIG calendar. See:
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

On May 20 (Wednesday) The NY chapter of SMPTE will hold its annual NAB
Rap-UP panel discussion. This is normally a very well attended event. You
must register by May 15th! See:
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main/Public/5-20-2009_
-Event_2

I plan to attend and I'm open to having a brew afterwards. 

Regards,
Jim


Jim Mann
Colorist/Product Specialist 
C 516-250-0909
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann










From jfmann at optimum.net  Tue May 12 03:23:21 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:23:21 -0400
Subject: [Tig] NY SMPTE NAB Rap UP!
In-Reply-To: <000001c9d1c6$fac7fcf0$f057f6d0$@net>
References: <mailman.985.1240967976.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<C54497A9-23AA-4A5F-ACB3-B2E2C130AEEB@bigpond.net.au>
	<000001c9d1c6$fac7fcf0$f057f6d0$@net>
Message-ID: <000001c9d2a8$9ef0a700$dcd1f500$@net>

Hmmm...if that event's link word wrapped badly try;
http://tinyurl.com/q6orrz


Regards,
Jim


Jim Mann
Colorist/Product Specialist 
C 516-250-0909
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann








_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From rob at colorist.org  Thu May 14 01:22:26 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 03:22:26 +0300
Subject: [Tig] regular 16 Spirit
Message-ID: <C57F3068-AFE3-4192-8905-26A06B923839@colorist.org>

I need a quick answer to a simple question.  can the Spirit transfer  
regular 16mm with an S16 gate?  offhand I don't see why not.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From jeffkreines at mindspring.com  Wed May 13 22:40:30 2009
From: jeffkreines at mindspring.com (Jeff Kreines)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:40:30 -0500
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <000001c9d2a8$9ef0a700$dcd1f500$@net>
References: <mailman.985.1240967976.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<C54497A9-23AA-4A5F-ACB3-B2E2C130AEEB@bigpond.net.au>
	<000001c9d1c6$fac7fcf0$f057f6d0$@net>
	<000001c9d2a8$9ef0a700$dcd1f500$@net>
Message-ID: <7023F5D0-9A73-44E6-9638-A3CA426BEB6B@mindspring.com>

Panasonic just announced that they are teaming up with Sumitomo  
Metals to make large OLED displays -- 40" was mentioned.  2010  
delivery, they claim.  The intent is to make large OLED displays for  
consumer use.  If they make a pro version (and we should infer they  
will) this may finally be the affordable grading/client monitor we  
have all been waiting for.

Until then, I'm leaning towards their 50" pro plasma display.  Anyone  
using one?

Jeff "once made an OLED camera viewfinder in the very early days of  
OLED" Kreines



From rob at colorist.org  Thu May 14 01:27:41 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 03:27:41 +0300
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate
Message-ID: <B307E49D-C8A0-4C0E-88AE-668426C4399B@colorist.org>

received answer (yes) on 16mm question for spirit, thanks Dave.

Rob
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From DCorbitt77 at comcast.net  Thu May 14 01:29:30 2009
From: DCorbitt77 at comcast.net (Dave Corbitt)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 20:29:30 -0400
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <7023F5D0-9A73-44E6-9638-A3CA426BEB6B@mindspring.com>
References: <mailman.985.1240967976.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<C54497A9-23AA-4A5F-ACB3-B2E2C130AEEB@bigpond.net.au>
	<000001c9d1c6$fac7fcf0$f057f6d0$@net>
	<000001c9d2a8$9ef0a700$dcd1f500$@net>
	<7023F5D0-9A73-44E6-9638-A3CA426BEB6B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <6134fbb2394d3ebdbb10f7d69a434e69@comcast.net>

Jeff,

We use them where I work. We have many of them, some with HD-SDI input 
boards, some with the newer dual link HD-SDI input boards. They are 
pretty sweet.

Dave Corbitt
HBO
NYC

On May 13, 2009, at 5:40 PM, Jeff Kreines wrote:
>
> Panasonic just announced that they are teaming up with Sumitomo Metals 
> to make large OLED displays -- 40" was mentioned.  2010 delivery, they 
> claim.  The intent is to make large OLED displays for consumer use.  
> If they make a pro version (and we should infer they will) this may 
> finally be the affordable grading/client monitor we have all been 
> waiting for.
>
> Until then, I'm leaning towards their 50" pro plasma display.  Anyone 
> using one?
>
> Jeff "once made an OLED camera viewfinder in the very early days of 
> OLED" Kreines
>
Dave Corbitt
77 Winchip Road
Summit, NJ 07901
ph (908) 286-0330
cell (973) 714-2322
email  DCorbitt77 at comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~dcorbitt77




From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com  Thu May 14 13:01:43 2009
From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (jeff.booth at ntlworld.com)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:01:43 +0100
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <7023F5D0-9A73-44E6-9638-A3CA426BEB6B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>

At the DI event last year in the UK, Charles Poynton said that OLED colour space isn't quite right. There are two CIE co-ordinates for green (depending on the doping used in the LEDs).

The advertising blurb says '105% of NTSC colour space' but no mention of 709.

Discuss?
---- Jeff Kreines <jeffkreines at mindspring.com> wrote: 
Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


Panasonic just announced that they are teaming up with Sumitomo  
Metals to make large OLED displays -- 40" was mentioned.  2010  
delivery, they claim.  The intent is to make large OLED displays for  
consumer use.  If they make a pro version (and we should infer they  
will) this may finally be the affordable grading/client monitor we  
have all been waiting for.

Until then, I'm leaning towards their 50" pro plasma display.  Anyone  
using one?

Jeff "once made an OLED camera viewfinder in the very early days of  
OLED" Kreines

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk  Thu May 14 07:46:07 2009
From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 07:46:07 +0100
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate
In-Reply-To: <B307E49D-C8A0-4C0E-88AE-668426C4399B@colorist.org>
References: <B307E49D-C8A0-4C0E-88AE-668426C4399B@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE4A@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Beware that you can end up with some flare from the soundtrack area. 


Steve Roberts
Senior Post Production Engineer
>BBC Studios and Post Production 
>
>020 857 64556
>Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>
www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com

BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: 14 May 2009 01:28
To: tig at colorist.org Group
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


received answer (yes) on 16mm question for spirit, thanks Dave.

Rob
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3

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Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					



From tig at bosti.nl  Thu May 14 15:42:06 2009
From: tig at bosti.nl (Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:42:06 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Kinteton FP30/38 EC Exhaust specs
In-Reply-To: <6134fbb2394d3ebdbb10f7d69a434e69@comcast.net>
References: <mailman.985.1240967976.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<C54497A9-23AA-4A5F-ACB3-B2E2C130AEEB@bigpond.net.au>	<000001c9d1c6$fac7fcf0$f057f6d0$@net>	<000001c9d2a8$9ef0a700$dcd1f500$@net>	<7023F5D0-9A73-44E6-9638-A3CA426BEB6B@mindspring.com>
	<6134fbb2394d3ebdbb10f7d69a434e69@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A0C2DBE.7070807@bosti.nl>

Hey Guys,

Anyone happens to know the exhaust requirements for a Kineton FP30/38 
EC? I need to supply the airco company with the specifications. I know 
that our Barco DP90 needs 10-15m3 (350-530 CFM).

Thanks in advance,
Floor



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sat May 16 00:32:25 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:32:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
References: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905151817550.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 14 May 2009, jeff.booth at ntlworld.com wrote:
>
> The advertising blurb says '105% of NTSC colour space' but no mention of 709.

The NTSC colour space is actually much larger than Rec.709.  It seems 
that one purpose for Rec.709 was to define a colorspace that could be 
reliably reproduced.  An advertisement claiming to be larger than NTSC 
may be faulty.  Any advertisement that the color space is broader than 
some standard surely means that the primaries don't match a standard.

If the device supports enough unique levels and has suitable built-in 
LUT capability, does it matter if the native device uses different 
primaries?

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From DCorbitt77 at comcast.net  Sat May 16 01:22:29 2009
From: DCorbitt77 at comcast.net (Dave Corbitt)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 20:22:29 -0400
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
References: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
Message-ID: <b160ae6c1043ea8e6fa794d78e138e4b@comcast.net>

Do not confuse NTSC colorspace with SMPTE C. NTSC color space is a much 
larger triangle and can encompass within its colorspace  Rec 709, EBU, 
and SMPTE C. SMPTE C was the smaller "more practical" colorspace that 
evolved out of common practice that had drifted far from the original 
NTSC colorspace. NTSC colorspace is only now becoming possible with new 
display technologies. EBU colorspace was a refinement of SMPTE C with 
slightly redder reds. Rec 709 is the midpoint between SMPTE C and EBU 
colorspace. So if something has colorspace 105% of NTSC, it is a really 
big triangle on the CIE chart. With the use of a LUT in the display, 
you can emulate any colorspace smaller than the native colorspace of 
the monitor. This is well established color science.


Dave Corbitt
HBO Studios
NYC


On May 14, 2009, at 8:01 AM, <jeff.booth at ntlworld.com> wrote:

> At the DI event last year in the UK, Charles Poynton said that OLED 
> colour space isn't quite right. There are two CIE co-ordinates for 
> green (depending on the doping used in the LEDs).
>
> The advertising blurb says '105% of NTSC colour space' but no mention 
> of 709.
>
> Discuss?
>




From DCorbitt77 at comcast.net  Sat May 16 10:51:38 2009
From: DCorbitt77 at comcast.net (Dave Corbitt)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 05:51:38 -0400
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <1913FEAB50254C4BA936535D1BA7E1F8@Desktop>
References: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
	<b160ae6c1043ea8e6fa794d78e138e4b@comcast.net>
	<1913FEAB50254C4BA936535D1BA7E1F8@Desktop>
Message-ID: <97c2ec356be0e41a9a985c5ecef97a12@comcast.net>

That indeed would be tragic. Then there is no way their claim of 105% 
of NTSC could be correct.
Dave Corbitt


On May 16, 2009, at 5:16 AM, Jeff Booth wrote:

> I'm pretty sure than on the Chromaticity diagram that Charles showed to
> illustrate the OLED issue had the co-ordinates for one of the two 
> flavours
> of green *inside* the 709 triangle.
>
> Red and blue were very close to the 709 numbers
>
> Very happy to be proved wrong, of course.
>




From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com  Sat May 16 10:12:45 2009
From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:12:45 +0100
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905151817550.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905151817550.1108@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <E7C549B67FDB495DAD24300EFAA66E49@Desktop>

Presumably they are quoting NTSC when they actually mean SMPTE? Far more
punters know what NTSC is and not many SMPTE.

If Charles is on this list, maybe he can clarify?

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us] 
Sent: 16 May 2009 00:32
To: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com
Cc: Jeff Kreines; Telecine Internet Group
Subject: Re: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...

On Thu, 14 May 2009, jeff.booth at ntlworld.com wrote:
>
> The advertising blurb says '105% of NTSC colour space' but no mention of
709.

The NTSC colour space is actually much larger than Rec.709.  It seems that
one purpose for Rec.709 was to define a colorspace that could be reliably
reproduced.  An advertisement claiming to be larger than NTSC may be faulty.
Any advertisement that the color space is broader than some standard surely
means that the primaries don't match a standard.

If the device supports enough unique levels and has suitable built-in LUT
capability, does it matter if the native device uses different primaries?

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com  Sat May 16 10:16:41 2009
From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:16:41 +0100
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <b160ae6c1043ea8e6fa794d78e138e4b@comcast.net>
References: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
	<b160ae6c1043ea8e6fa794d78e138e4b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1913FEAB50254C4BA936535D1BA7E1F8@Desktop>

I'm pretty sure than on the Chromaticity diagram that Charles showed to
illustrate the OLED issue had the co-ordinates for one of the two flavours
of green *inside* the 709 triangle. 

Red and blue were very close to the 709 numbers

Very happy to be proved wrong, of course.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Corbitt [mailto:DCorbitt77 at comcast.net] 
Sent: 16 May 2009 01:22
To: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com
Cc: Jeff Kreines; Telecine Internet Group
Subject: Re: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...

Do not confuse NTSC colorspace with SMPTE C. NTSC color space is a much
larger triangle and can encompass within its colorspace  Rec 709, EBU, and
SMPTE C. SMPTE C was the smaller "more practical" colorspace that evolved
out of common practice that had drifted far from the original NTSC
colorspace. NTSC colorspace is only now becoming possible with new display
technologies. EBU colorspace was a refinement of SMPTE C with slightly
redder reds. Rec 709 is the midpoint between SMPTE C and EBU colorspace. So
if something has colorspace 105% of NTSC, it is a really big triangle on the
CIE chart. With the use of a LUT in the display, you can emulate any
colorspace smaller than the native colorspace of the monitor. This is well
established color science.


Dave Corbitt
HBO Studios
NYC


On May 14, 2009, at 8:01 AM, <jeff.booth at ntlworld.com> wrote:

> At the DI event last year in the UK, Charles Poynton said that OLED 
> colour space isn't quite right. There are two CIE co-ordinates for 
> green (depending on the doping used in the LEDs).
>
> The advertising blurb says '105% of NTSC colour space' but no mention 
> of 709.
>
> Discuss?
>




From tiramola at hol.gr  Sat May 16 15:05:58 2009
From: tiramola at hol.gr (Christos Gartaganis)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:05:58 +0300
Subject: [Tig] Kinteton FP30/38 EC Exhaust specs
In-Reply-To: <4A0C2DBE.7070807@bosti.nl>
Message-ID: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>

Hello from Greece,

 

The requirement varies according to the lamphouse that you are going to use
on the FP30 EC. For the standard studio lamphouse (up to 2Kw bulbs) you need
something like 6-7m3/minute. Let me know if this information is enough for
you. 

 

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Christos Gartaganis 

   www.accelere.gr <http://www.accelere.gr/>  

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 5:42 PM
To: Telecine Internet Group
Subject: [Tig] Kinteton FP30/38 EC Exhaust specs

 

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.

2190 subscribers as of May 2009

Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.

 ====

 

 

Hey Guys,

 

Anyone happens to know the exhaust requirements for a Kineton FP30/38 

EC? I need to supply the airco company with the specifications. I know 

that our Barco DP90 needs 10-15m3 (350-530 CFM).

 

Thanks in advance,

Floor

 

_______________________________________________

http://reels.colorist.org

http://www.colorist.org/wiki3

 

 

__________ NOD32 4080 (20090515) Information __________

 

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.

http://www.eset.com

 



From rob at colorist.org  Sat May 16 15:50:41 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:50:41 +0300
Subject: [Tig] OLED Monitors coming...
In-Reply-To: <b160ae6c1043ea8e6fa794d78e138e4b@comcast.net>
References: <20090514130143.E0EEU.217766.root@web04-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com>
	<b160ae6c1043ea8e6fa794d78e138e4b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AA2C6D4E-F7CF-4EF6-BFF1-308D55A4D33C@colorist.org>


On May 16, 2009, at 3:22 AM, Dave Corbitt wrote:

>  EBU colorspace was a refinement of SMPTE C with slightly redder reds.

was this not a refinement done as a result of EBU phosphors having an  
innately greater range?

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com  Mon May 18 18:29:02 2009
From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:29:02 -0700
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate
In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE4A@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <B307E49D-C8A0-4C0E-88AE-668426C4399B@colorist.org>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE4A@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5046E6C37@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>

This propensity for flair is one reason a normal 16mm skid plate is
available.  One "quick and dirty - your mileage may vary" fix is careful
placement of metal projector tape on the underside of the skid plate
covering the soundtrack area. Some people say they have found suitable
tape in heating and air conditioning aisle of hardware store. Of course,
this approach is totally at your own risk.  The only "official" solution
is the normal 16mm skid plate. 

Craig Nichols
Digital Film Technology


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Roberts - Post Production
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:46 PM
To: Rob Lingelbach; tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


Beware that you can end up with some flare from the soundtrack area. 


Steve Roberts
Senior Post Production Engineer
>BBC Studios and Post Production 
>
>020 857 64556
>Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>
www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com

BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: 14 May 2009 01:28
To: tig at colorist.org Group
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


received answer (yes) on 16mm question for spirit, thanks Dave.

Rob
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain
personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically
stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in
reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					

_______________________________________________
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http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



From rob at colorist.org  Mon May 18 18:50:54 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:50:54 +0300
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate
In-Reply-To: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5046E6C37@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>
References: <B307E49D-C8A0-4C0E-88AE-668426C4399B@colorist.org>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE4A@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
	<62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5046E6C37@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>
Message-ID: <C6A09E03-44A8-4044-9F67-5928CDE8F20A@colorist.org>


On May 18, 2009, at 8:29 PM, Nichols Craig wrote:

> This propensity for flair is one reason a normal 16mm skid plate is
> available.  One "quick and dirty - your mileage may vary" fix is  
> careful
> placement of metal projector tape

yes, we used to do that on the Cintel machines, worked well.  Also,  
use a Sharpie
on the inside of the skidplate to darken it down...  as I recall...

and don't we all have flair ?
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com  Mon May 18 21:22:48 2009
From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:22:48 -0700
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate
Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029F02DB@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>

Actually, tape workaround is for Spirit hd/2k/4k and won't work on Spirit 1. On Spirit 1 some folks use tape from above to mask a portion to tone down flare from sound tracks.  Regluar 16 skid plate works best but is not cheapest solution.  I was not sure if original question was Spirit 1 or 2k.
Craig Nichols
DFT

----- Original Message -----
From: Nichols Craig
To: Steve Roberts - Post Production <steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk>; Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org>; tig at colorist.org <tig at colorist.org>
Sent: Mon May 18 10:29:02 2009
Subject: RE: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate

This propensity for flair is one reason a normal 16mm skid plate is available.  One "quick and dirty - your mileage may vary" fix is careful placement of metal projector tape on the underside of the skid plate covering the soundtrack area. Some people say they have found suitable tape in heating and air conditioning aisle of hardware store. Of course, this approach is totally at your own risk.  The only "official" solution is the normal 16mm skid plate. 

Craig Nichols
Digital Film Technology


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Steve Roberts - Post Production
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:46 PM
To: Rob Lingelbach; tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


Beware that you can end up with some flare from the soundtrack area. 


Steve Roberts
Senior Post Production Engineer
>BBC Studios and Post Production 
>
>020 857 64556
>Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ
>
www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com

BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television
Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: 14 May 2009 01:28
To: tig at colorist.org Group
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


received answer (yes) on 16mm question for spirit, thanks Dave.

Rob
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.
					

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3

From ken at flight4.org  Tue May 19 02:33:24 2009
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:33:24 -0300
Subject: [Tig] reg16 on spirit s16 gate
In-Reply-To: <C6A09E03-44A8-4044-9F67-5928CDE8F20A@colorist.org>
References: <B307E49D-C8A0-4C0E-88AE-668426C4399B@colorist.org><244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BE4A@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk><62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5046E6C37@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com>
	<C6A09E03-44A8-4044-9F67-5928CDE8F20A@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <00b301c9d821$cf63bbb0$6700a8c0@flight4>

Not sure that you would want to use a sharpie on a Spirit gate!!!!

(just in case anyone thought that was a good idea)

ken robinson

  

Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Rob Lingelbach
 ====


yes, we used to do that on the Cintel machines, worked well.  Also,  
use a Sharpie
on the inside of the skidplate to darken it down...  as I recall...

and don't we all have flair ?
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From steve at veralith.com  Mon May 18 20:25:47 2009
From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:25:47 -0500
Subject: [Tig] interesting website
Message-ID: <3AAEAE5B-CA6A-422E-A5FD-73A0C56C291E@veralith.com>

I found this using StumbleUpon. It's a guy who created image collages  
by sampling a few famous movies for one frame every second. That  
single frame turned into a 6x8 pixel image and then strung together so  
that every line of line of images represents a minute. Then rows are  
created, allowing you to see the entire film in a single image.

This is interesting to look at from a colorist's viewpoint, because  
you can clearly see the color schemes as they work throughout the  
length of the film. Sections of warmth playing to sections of  
coolness. Bright contrasting with dark.

http://www.brendandawes.com/sketches/redux/

I have no connection with the website.

I worked on an animated film that did something similar BEFORE  
production, allowing you to see the color scheme as it progresses  
through the movie. Very revealing.

Steve Hullfish
author, "The Art and Technique of Color Correction"




From tig at bosti.nl  Mon May 18 21:44:23 2009
From: tig at bosti.nl (Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:44:23 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>
Message-ID: <4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>

Fellow colordicts,

I am sure the ones here that did attend the NAB had a quick look at the 
Blackmagic Ultrascope. I was wondering if some of you already checked it 
out in real life. How is the latency and accuracy? Is there any reason 
why this product should be observed with caution?

I did notice it only support single link HD, but considering the price, 
perhaps not much to argue about...

Thanks,
Floor



From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk  Tue May 19 14:49:29 2009
From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:49:29 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>
Message-ID: <070CEAB7ABC9419AB93982ED0954A5CD@Sprocket>

It arrived at NAB as a rastor on a screen and really not much more has
been designed ... July is the introduction date but they didn't really
know what ealse to build iinto the scope. It might be very basic.

Graham Collett
Visible Sprockets Ltd
www.visible-sprockets.co.uk
Sprockets(telecine) Ltd
www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk
 


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On
Behalf Of Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl
Sent: 18 May 2009 21:44
To: tig at colorist.org
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope


Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


Fellow colordicts,

I am sure the ones here that did attend the NAB had a quick look at the 
Blackmagic Ultrascope. I was wondering if some of you already checked it

out in real life. How is the latency and accuracy? Is there any reason 
why this product should be observed with caution?

I did notice it only support single link HD, but considering the price, 
perhaps not much to argue about...

Thanks,
Floor

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From peter.white at uea.ac.uk  Wed May 20 13:39:45 2009
From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:39:45 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>
	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>
Message-ID: <FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>

Can I chime in too.  I'm thinking about getting a few for work here.   
Could they be run on the same PC system as an SD Blackmagic card  
(output to a second monitor)?

They look like a nice cheap way of 'getting the job done', but I'm  
worried about the technical accuracy.

Then again, we can't afford Tectronix or Hamlets offerings, so this  
may have to be it anyway.

Pete White





On 18 May 2009, at 21:44, Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> Fellow colordicts,
>
> I am sure the ones here that did attend the NAB had a quick look at  
> the Blackmagic Ultrascope. I was wondering if some of you already  
> checked it out in real life. How is the latency and accuracy? Is  
> there any reason why this product should be observed with caution?
>
> I did notice it only support single link HD, but considering the  
> price, perhaps not much to argue about...
>
> Thanks,
> Floor
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



From peter.white at uea.ac.uk  Wed May 20 13:44:16 2009
From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:44:16 +0100
Subject: [Tig] interesting website
In-Reply-To: <3AAEAE5B-CA6A-422E-A5FD-73A0C56C291E@veralith.com>
References: <3AAEAE5B-CA6A-422E-A5FD-73A0C56C291E@veralith.com>
Message-ID: <7A611234-92BF-4246-99EA-E1B58C3283BD@uea.ac.uk>

Nice.  It reminds me of how Diamant (no connection to me etc etc)  
does its 'stripe' image.  It take one horizontal pixel strip from the  
centre of every frame, and adds them into a long length.  This allows  
you to see grading changes at frame level very easily (good for  
camera flare and mucky joins), but I can image for modern releases  
it's not so needed.

Pete White





On 18 May 2009, at 20:25, Steve Hullfish wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> I found this using StumbleUpon. It's a guy who created image  
> collages by sampling a few famous movies for one frame every  
> second. That single frame turned into a 6x8 pixel image and then  
> strung together so that every line of line of images represents a  
> minute. Then rows are created, allowing you to see the entire film  
> in a single image.
>
> This is interesting to look at from a colorist's viewpoint, because  
> you can clearly see the color schemes as they work throughout the  
> length of the film. Sections of warmth playing to sections of  
> coolness. Bright contrasting with dark.
>
> http://www.brendandawes.com/sketches/redux/
>
> I have no connection with the website.
>
> I worked on an animated film that did something similar BEFORE  
> production, allowing you to see the color scheme as it progresses  
> through the movie. Very revealing.
>
> Steve Hullfish
> author, "The Art and Technique of Color Correction"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Wed May 20 10:40:58 2009
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 05:40:58 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
Message-ID: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>

I am sad to report the untimely death of David Fenton.

David, for several years in the 1980's, ran Rank Cintel USA from the West
Nyack office and then returned to the UK as sales director for Rank Cintel
global until his retirement in the late 1990's. 
He then for a few years ran his own company. 
David had retired some years ago and moved with his wife to France, where
he enjoyed the wine, food and golf. 

He was apparently out fishing yesterday afternoon when his rod or line
became entangled with a overhead high voltage power cable.
For those of us who knew him well it is ironic that this was his fate; a
lightning bolt while playing golf would have been more plausible.

I am sure that many of you, well those who were around in the 80's and
90's, will have many memories of David. 

Peter Swinson



From steve at veralith.com  Tue May 19 16:00:09 2009
From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:00:09 -0500
Subject: [Tig] More on Technicolor
Message-ID: <F3F1471C-E8EE-40C2-9DAC-66A345956786@veralith.com>

I remember someone asking about rumors of Technicolor leaving the Sony  
lot.

Here is a post from the DI-tech-net list:

I've just recently taken on the task for Sony Pictures of rebuilding the
Stage 6 D.I. facility that is being vacated by Technicolor.

I'm looking for sr. systems engineers to help with the new build-out
and to then evolve the systems for data, networking, video, and audio
to next generation all-4K capabilities and to provide a digital backbone
for the entire studio.

If you know of someone who might be interested in this, please
e-mail me directly at jim_houston at spe dot sony dot com.

Jim Houston
VP Engineering
Sony Pictures Studios

From dcorbitt77 at comcast.net  Wed May 20 15:52:14 2009
From: dcorbitt77 at comcast.net (dcorbitt77 at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:52:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
In-Reply-To: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <1333588337.10924121242831134745.JavaMail.root@sz0137a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

That is terrible news. I worked for David when he worked out of the West Nyack, NY Rank Cintel office. Can you tell me how to contact his wife Maggie? 

Thanks 

Dave Corbitt 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "peter_swinson" <peter_swinson at compuserve.com> 
To: "tig" <tig at tig.colorist.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 5:40:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News 

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 
2190 subscribers as of May 2009 
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. 
==== 


I am sad to report the untimely death of David Fenton. 

David, for several years in the 1980's, ran Rank Cintel USA from the West 
Nyack office and then returned to the UK as sales director for Rank Cintel 
global until his retirement in the late 1990's. 
He then for a few years ran his own company. 
David had retired some years ago and moved with his wife to France, where 
he enjoyed the wine, food and golf. 

He was apparently out fishing yesterday afternoon when his rod or line 
became entangled with a overhead high voltage power cable. 
For those of us who knew him well it is ironic that this was his fate; a 
lightning bolt while playing golf would have been more plausible. 

I am sure that many of you, well those who were around in the 80's and 
90's, will have many memories of David. 

Peter Swinson 

_______________________________________________ 
http://reels.colorist.org 
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 


From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 20 16:00:19 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:00:19 +0300
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
In-Reply-To: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>
References: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <69DB2573-2DF7-41BB-9F91-AC2E9EF3E71B@colorist.org>


On May 20, 2009, at 12:40 PM, peter_swinson wrote:

> I am sad to report the untimely death of David Fenton.

oh that's really sad Peter.  David was a real presence, a stalwart and
very pleasant head man for Rank Cintel USA.  I remember the first time
that Mike Orton attended NAB as the Chief Engineer of Editel LA, Mike
lounging in a lobby chair in tiger-stripe sweat pants, David in a very  
natty
suit standing over him, Peter Swinson and the rest of the gang, and Mike
as usual got the best of the exchange, as he would with nearly all,  
doing
everything but brandishing his charter from King Henry II.

When I met Sam Holtz he used to buttonhole me and give me the story of
Rank, and David Fenton was always featured.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From bob at bluescreen.com  Wed May 20 16:27:10 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:27:10 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>
	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>
	<FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>

>Could they be run on the same PC system as an SD Blackmagic card  
>(output to a second monitor)?

The product has its own interface card, which requires a single lane PCIe slot
on the host computer. 

I talked with the designer at NAB, and suggested they also make a PCExpress
interface so people with laptops could use it. He liked the idea.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com




From domrom at optonline.net  Wed May 20 19:48:52 2009
From: domrom at optonline.net (domrom at optonline.net)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:48:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
In-Reply-To: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>
References: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <e3d5cdb126107.4a145094@optonline.net>

I am so sorry to hear that. David was a big part of my life when I first got into this silly color correction business. He was a big presence at Unitel NY in I would guess late 83 when we bought our first Rank. As I moved into Management at Duart I negotiated with him and truly enjoyed our battles. He was a very classy man, very loyal to the company and always spoke lovingly of his wife.
 
My deepest sympathies to the family, we have lost another good one.
 
Domenic Rom
PostWorks 

----- Original Message -----
From: peter_swinson 
Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:48 am
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
To: tig 

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
> 
> 
> I am sad to report the untimely death of David Fenton.
> 
> David, for several years in the 1980's, ran Rank Cintel USA from 
> the West
> Nyack office and then returned to the UK as sales director for 
> Rank Cintel
> global until his retirement in the late 1990's. 
> He then for a few years ran his own company. 
> David had retired some years ago and moved with his wife to 
> France, where
> he enjoyed the wine, food and golf. 
> 
> He was apparently out fishing yesterday afternoon when his rod 
> or line
> became entangled with a overhead high voltage power cable.
> For those of us who knew him well it is ironic that this was his 
> fate; a
> lightning bolt while playing golf would have been more plausible.
> 
> I am sure that many of you, well those who were around in the 
> 80's and
> 90's, will have many memories of David. 
> 
> Peter Swinson
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
> 


From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Wed May 20 16:01:59 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:01:59 -0700
Subject: [Tig] More on Technicolor
In-Reply-To: <F3F1471C-E8EE-40C2-9DAC-66A345956786@veralith.com>
References: <F3F1471C-E8EE-40C2-9DAC-66A345956786@veralith.com>
Message-ID: <0E2E5FD4-62B1-45DB-B036-114445BD300E@earthlink.net>



Sony has already announced the acquisition of
two Scanity 'Spirit' Scanners and multiple Baselight
grading systems for a 4K DI and Mastering Facility
on the lot.

Jim

On May 19, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Steve Hullfish wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> I remember someone asking about rumors of Technicolor leaving the  
> Sony lot.
>
> Here is a post from the DI-tech-net list
> ...

>
> If you know of someone who might be interested in this, please
> e-mail me directly at jim_houston at spe dot sony dot com.
>
> Jim Houston
> VP Engineering
> Sony Pictures Studios
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 20 22:25:43 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 00:25:43 +0300
Subject: [Tig] new classifieds
Message-ID: <3A96A525-2227-4830-9B56-8E6EFF9DEBC9@colorist.org>

new and vintage classifieds on the TIG wiki:

Colourist, Engineer, Programmer, System Administrator available, worldwi
Jim Mann, Freelance Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist
Colourist Available, Worldwide
Adam Halasz colourist
Kevin Shaw: Freelance Colorist, Instructor and Consultant
Stuart Blake Jones - Freelance Colorist-Consultant-Instructor-Writer
Herbert Butler - Assistant Colourist and Conform Editor
Laura Creecy, Matt McFarland

Da Vinci Resolve RT Available for sale
Da Vinci DUI System complete + Resolve Control Panels
HD Spirit Color Suite
Luster 2009 with Incinerator
Loaded Davinci 2K Plus for Sale USA $155,000 USD
CINTEL RASCAL & DAVINCI 2k COLOR CORRECTOR (separately)
TTR 4x1 portable HD-SDI router available for sale
CINE-TAL MONITOR FOR SALE $27,000 OBO

Wanted

Colorist, amazing, for autodesk platform, Toronto
Looking for URSA DIAMOND
Ampex AVR1, AVR2s needed

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From hugh at hjwaters.co.uk  Wed May 20 23:44:07 2009
From: hugh at hjwaters.co.uk (Hugh Waters)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:44:07 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
In-Reply-To: <200905200541_MC3-2-227F-306@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <893FEF723E554F089DB2ACA74DC6E1DC@WTS03>

I'm very sorry to hear the dreadful news. Especially so because I was just
thinking about David only a couple of days ago. I met him frequently during
the early days of my time at Molinare in the late 1980s / early 90s.

Condolences to his many ex-colleagues, past customers, friends and family.

Hugh
-----------------------------
Hugh James Waters
Waters Technical Services
07801 053248
01453549048
hugh at hjwaters.co.uk
www.hjwaters.co.uk


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of peter_swinson
Sent: 20 May 2009 10:41
To: tig
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News


Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


I am sad to report the untimely death of David Fenton.

David, for several years in the 1980's, ran Rank Cintel USA from the West
Nyack office and then returned to the UK as sales director for Rank Cintel
global until his retirement in the late 1990's. 
He then for a few years ran his own company. 
David had retired some years ago and moved with his wife to France, where he
enjoyed the wine, food and golf. 

He was apparently out fishing yesterday afternoon when his rod or line
became entangled with a overhead high voltage power cable. For those of us
who knew him well it is ironic that this was his fate; a lightning bolt
while playing golf would have been more plausible.

I am sure that many of you, well those who were around in the 80's and 90's,
will have many memories of David. 

Peter Swinson

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From alanr at bhphoto.com  Thu May 21 14:11:18 2009
From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:11:18 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Tragic News
In-Reply-To: <893FEF723E554F089DB2ACA74DC6E1DC@WTS03>
Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D5F8F2C@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local>



Very sad news indeed.  He was a good and knowledgeable man.  My condolences to his family.

Alan Rosenfeld
The Studio at B&H



From alan at quinto.com.au  Fri May 22 04:05:23 2009
From: alan at quinto.com.au (Alan McIlwaine)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:05:23 +1000
Subject: [Tig] David Fenton
Message-ID: <20090522030526.TBNR1556.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@Alanspc>

Thorough the pages of the Tig I would like to pay tribute to my friend David
Fenton who unfortunately died earlier this week as a result of a tragic
accident.

David spent nearly two decades with Cintel and I am sure many members of the
Tig knew him well.

I first met David on the day came to Cintel in Ware UK for an interview with
Chris Waldron and myself. We were seeking a new Area Sales Manager to cover
the Middle East and Africa and David came highly recommended.

Dapper to perfection David was very articulate, and, although he came from
outside the television industry, David appeared to have all the right
personal credentials, and we were happy to recruit him.

Looking after his sales territory from the UK involved long flights just to
meet his first customers and so David re-located to Cyprus where he opened a
Cintel Middle East office and furthered his love of sub-aqua diving.

>From Cyprus, David moved to the USA where, from the Rank Precision offices
in New Jersey, he was instrumental in the sales of many telecines to the
post production industry.

When in the mid-1980's I decided to emigrate to Australia, David was my
natural successor and so he returned to the UK, initially as Cintel's Sales
and Marketing Manager, and later as a Director of the Company.

During his tenure at Cintel David saw the company move from the MkIII,
through the URSA range of telecines to the C-Reality and DSX. During this
time he undoubtedly met and influenced many people in this industry.

Several years ago, David retired to live in France and continue his love of
golf and fishing. It was there, earlier this week, when he met with his
tragic accident.

Over the years we have kept in contact, initially on a business level and
then as friends following his retirement. Together, we have drunk many
bottles of wine as we reminisced on our experiences together, including some
rather interesting visits to Nigeria.

David, ("Padders" to many at Cintel), was a loyal and true friend who had
achieved a lot in this industry. He will be sadly missed by his family and
friends. Our thoughts and prayers at this time are with his family and
especially his wife Maggie


Alan McIlwaine
Quinto Communications Pty Ltd
www.quinto.com.au




From frank at opticalart.de  Fri May 22 10:02:35 2009
From: frank at opticalart.de (Frank Hellmann)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:02:35 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb
Message-ID: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>

Hi!

Has anybody run across affordable converters that convert between 
Dual-Link HD-SDI  and  Single-Link 3Gbit HD-SDI?

My idea was to stick these onto our "legacy" dual-link hd-vtrs and just 
use 3Gbit for all 4:4:4 routing connections.

I haven't seen this as small standalone converters so far and the big 
crossconverters are just a bit to expensive to hide them behind a VTR... :-)

       Best regards,

                   Frank...

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OPTICAL ART             Film & Special-Effects GmbH    Waterloohain 6-8
Frank Hellmann          DI Supervisor                  22769 Hamburg
frank at opticalart.de     http://www.opticalart.de
Tel: +49 40 5111051     Fax: +49 40 43169499

Sitz der Gesellschaft:  Hamburg, Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 384 70
Geschäftsführer:        Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Niederlassung Berlin    Skalitzer Straße 104               10997 Berlin
Niederlassung Frankfurt Hanauer Landstraße 163-171      60314 Frankfurt
Niederlassung Halle     Mansfelderstrasse 56                06108 Halle
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OPTICAL ART             Digital & Film GmbH          Graf Adolf Str. 22
Frank Hellmann          DI Supervisor                  40212 Düsseldorf
frank at opticalart.de     http://www.opticalart.de
Tel: +49 211 828590

Sitz der Gesellschaft:    Düsseldorf, Amtsgericht Düsseldorf HRB 38 132
Geschäftsführer:                    Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann
-----------------------------------------------------------------------




From tig at bosti.nl  Fri May 22 12:02:09 2009
From: tig at bosti.nl (Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:02:09 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>	<FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
	<k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4A168631.4080303@bosti.nl>

Hi Bob,

For the time being you can also connect any PCI-e 1x on the Expresscard 
interface using equipment from Magma:
http://www.magma.com/products/pciexpress/index.html

Didn't try it myself, but it seems like an handy thing. I think you can 
cannot 8x devices, but the Expresscard 34 is only 1x lane. So not too 
much bandwith. But should be enough for a scope data?! :-) Unless if it 
really processes the HD signal in software, (slooow) then it would never 
be fast enough.

Cheers,
Floor

Bob Kertesz wrote:
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
>  ====
>
>
>   
>> Could they be run on the same PC system as an SD Blackmagic card  
>> (output to a second monitor)?
>>     
>
> The product has its own interface card, which requires a single lane PCIe slot
> on the host computer. 
>
> I talked with the designer at NAB, and suggested they also make a PCExpress
> interface so people with laptops could use it. He liked the idea.
>
> --Bob
>
> Bob Kertesz
> BlueScreen LLC
> Hollywood, California
> bob at bluescreen.com
>
> The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
> For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
>
>   




From bram at dandesmet.com  Fri May 22 14:04:38 2009
From: bram at dandesmet.com (Bram Desmet)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:04:38 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb
In-Reply-To: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>
References: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>
Message-ID: <001301c9dadd$dd652230$982f6690$@com>

The AJA 3GM does a very good job in my experience, allows for both Level A &
B 3Gbps SDI and can go from Dual Link to 3Gbps or 3Gbps to Dual Link.  The
box is a small standalone device. No affiliation with them, just like the
product.  

Thanks,

Bram Desmet
Bram at FlandersScientific.com
404.610.1940


-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Frank Hellmann
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 5:03 AM
To: Group Internet Telecine
Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


Hi!

Has anybody run across affordable converters that convert between 
Dual-Link HD-SDI  and  Single-Link 3Gbit HD-SDI?

My idea was to stick these onto our "legacy" dual-link hd-vtrs and just 
use 3Gbit for all 4:4:4 routing connections.

I haven't seen this as small standalone converters so far and the big 
crossconverters are just a bit to expensive to hide them behind a VTR... :-)

       Best regards,

                   Frank...

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OPTICAL ART             Film & Special-Effects GmbH    Waterloohain 6-8
Frank Hellmann          DI Supervisor                  22769 Hamburg
frank at opticalart.de     http://www.opticalart.de
Tel: +49 40 5111051     Fax: +49 40 43169499

Sitz der Gesellschaft:  Hamburg, Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 384 70
Geschäftsführer:        Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Niederlassung Berlin    Skalitzer Straße 104               10997 Berlin
Niederlassung Frankfurt Hanauer Landstraße 163-171      60314 Frankfurt
Niederlassung Halle     Mansfelderstrasse 56                06108 Halle
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OPTICAL ART             Digital & Film GmbH          Graf Adolf Str. 22
Frank Hellmann          DI Supervisor                  40212 Düsseldorf
frank at opticalart.de     http://www.opticalart.de
Tel: +49 211 828590

Sitz der Gesellschaft:    Düsseldorf, Amtsgericht Düsseldorf HRB 38 132
Geschäftsführer:                    Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From ramona at spectsoft.com  Fri May 22 15:19:12 2009
From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:19:12 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb
In-Reply-To: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>
References: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>
Message-ID: <200905220719.12799.ramona@spectsoft.com>


> Has anybody run across affordable converters that convert between
> Dual-Link HD-SDI  and  Single-Link 3Gbit HD-SDI?

Did you check to see if AJA made one?


Cheers,
Ramona



-- 
Ramona Howard
Oakdale, Ca 95361
209 847-7812 ext 104
www.spectsoft.com

Co-founder of SpectSoft, makers of the Rave product line.



From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com  Fri May 22 17:12:51 2009
From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal))
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:12:51 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb
In-Reply-To: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>
References: <4A166A2B.6010404@opticalart.de>
Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65FC5@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

AJA has one.  Haven't tried one and no affiliation.

http://www.aja.com/products/converters/converters-hd-3gm.php

Bob Micheletti, Engineer Universal Pictures Hollywood

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tig-bounces at colorist.org 
> [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Frank Hellmann
> Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:03 AM
> To: Group Internet Telecine
> Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb
> 
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
>  ====
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Has anybody run across affordable converters that convert 
> between Dual-Link HD-SDI  and  Single-Link 3Gbit HD-SDI?
> 
> My idea was to stick these onto our "legacy" dual-link 
> hd-vtrs and just use 3Gbit for all 4:4:4 routing connections.
> 
> I haven't seen this as small standalone converters so far and 
> the big crossconverters are just a bit to expensive to hide 
> them behind a VTR... :-)
> 
>        Best regards,
> 
>                    Frank...
> 
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> OPTICAL ART             Film & Special-Effects GmbH    
> Waterloohain 6-8
> Frank Hellmann          DI Supervisor                  22769 Hamburg
> frank at opticalart.de     http://www.opticalart.de
> Tel: +49 40 5111051     Fax: +49 40 43169499
> 
> Sitz der Gesellschaft:  Hamburg, Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 384 70
> Geschäftsführer:        Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> Niederlassung Berlin    Skalitzer Straße 104               
> 10997 Berlin
> Niederlassung Frankfurt Hanauer Landstraße 163-171      60314 
> Frankfurt
> Niederlassung Halle     Mansfelderstrasse 56                
> 06108 Halle
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> OPTICAL ART             Digital & Film GmbH          Graf 
> Adolf Str. 22
> Frank Hellmann          DI Supervisor                  40212 
> Düsseldorf
> frank at opticalart.de     http://www.opticalart.de
> Tel: +49 211 828590
> 
> Sitz der Gesellschaft:    Düsseldorf, Amtsgericht Düsseldorf 
> HRB 38 132
> Geschäftsführer:                    Christian Burgdorff, 
> Harald Lehmann
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
> 



From bob at bluescreen.com  Sat May 23 00:24:44 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:24:44 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <4A168631.4080303@bosti.nl>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>	<FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
	<k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>
	<4A168631.4080303@bosti.nl>
Message-ID: <ttce15ho1jhg0tift8mn9u5nscad8iuo5l@4ax.com>

Yes, the Magma box would probably work, but it adds $750 to the $700 cost of
the "scope"...

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



>Hi Bob,
>
>For the time being you can also connect any PCI-e 1x on the Expresscard 
>interface using equipment from Magma:
>http://www.magma.com/products/pciexpress/index.html
>
>Didn't try it myself, but it seems like an handy thing. I think you can 
>cannot 8x devices, but the Expresscard 34 is only 1x lane. So not too 
>much bandwith. But should be enough for a scope data?! :-) Unless if it 
>really processes the HD signal in software, (slooow) then it would never 
>be fast enough.
>
>Cheers,
>Floor
>
>Bob Kertesz wrote:
>> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
>> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
>> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
>>  ====
>>
>>
>>   
>>> Could they be run on the same PC system as an SD Blackmagic card  
>>> (output to a second monitor)?
>>>     
>>
>> The product has its own interface card, which requires a single lane PCIe slot
>> on the host computer. 
>>
>> I talked with the designer at NAB, and suggested they also make a PCExpress
>> interface so people with laptops could use it. He liked the idea.
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>> Bob Kertesz
>> BlueScreen LLC
>> Hollywood, California
>> bob at bluescreen.com
>>
>> The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
>> For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://reels.colorist.org
>> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
>>
>>   



From terry at finishedit.com  Fri May 22 21:03:25 2009
From: terry at finishedit.com (Terry Lockhart)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:03:25 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Dual to single link convert
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1201.1243009651.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1201.1243009651.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <FA6F2C02-BB37-4615-A22A-38DCCDC97CC8@finishedit.com>

Hi Frank:

Check out the AJA 3GM box. Very very nice, Goes both ways dual<->3Gbs  
and also delivers a 4:2:2 output at all times.
Team it up with the AJA HD10MD3 and you have a Std def output with 3:2  
form 23.98 4:4:4.
I think the 3GM is about $900. Seems to me I remember the 3GM/MD3 pair  
came to $1600, but I can't find the price list.

---no affiliation, yadda yadda -- just wish I could afford a couple in  
these hard times.
Terry
------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:02:35 +0200
From: Frank Hellmann <frank at opticalart.de>
To: Group Internet Telecine <tig at colorist.org>
Subject: [Tig] Converter HD-SDI Dual-Link to 3Gb
Message-ID: <4A166A2B.6010404 at opticalart.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed

Hi!

Has anybody run across affordable converters that convert between
Dual-Link HD-SDI  and  Single-Link 3Gbit HD-SDI?

My idea was to stick these onto our "legacy" dual-link hd-vtrs and just
use 3Gbit for all 4:4:4 routing connections.

I haven't seen this as small standalone converters so far and the big
crossconverters are just a bit to expensive to hide them behind a  
VTR... :-)

       Best regards,

                   Frank...

-- 
Terry Lockhart
Chief Engineer/IT manager
Finish Editorial
162 Columbus Ave.
Boston, Ma 02116-5222

direct/vm 617 850 6133
main  617 292 0082 or 850 6100
fax   617 292 0083
cel 617 775 3195
<terry at finishedit.com>
<www.finishedit.com>

I'm beginning to understand myself. But it would have been great to be  
able to understand myself when I was 20 rather than when I was 82."
--Dave Brubeck,  American jazz pianist






From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Sat May 23 15:52:33 2009
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:52:33 -0400
Subject: [Tig] david Fenton, tragic news
Message-ID: <200905231052_MC3-2-228B-642B@compuserve.com>

Following  the untimely death of David, these are details of the
arrangements 


David's cremation will take place in France, as follows: 
 
Date: Thursday 28th May at 11.00am 
 
Venue: Crematorium, Rue de Venes, Tonneins, Lot-et -Garonne 
(Tonneins is just south of Marmande, situated on the N113, approximately
14kms after 
Marmande and 20kms from Seyches) 
 
After the ceremony, a reception has been organised at Chateau de Vigiers 
from 12.45pm onwards. 
 
Maggie would appreciate your company to join her, not just to mourn his 
passing, but to celebrate his life and to say farewell. 
 
Finally, for those who wish to do so. Maggie would prefer a donation to
your 
favourite charity in place of flowers. 
 
For our friends and family whom are unable to attend, it is our intention
to 
organise a service in the UK, in the near future. We would like ideally for

this to take place at West Wratting church followed by a function at
Saffron 
Walden Golf Club. Details to follow. 
 
Maggie would like to pass on her thanks for all the support we have had
from 
well wishers and everyone. 
 
As you can see, it is Maggie's intention to organise a UK service in the
near future, as so many of his friends and family will be absent next
Thursday. 



Peter Swinson



From velocite at mac.com  Tue May 26 01:50:18 2009
From: velocite at mac.com (John Buck / Velocite)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:50:18 +1000
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
Message-ID: <C2929AEF-4CCD-499F-A326-B8A282DB0573@mac.com>

As many of you know I am writing a book about electronic editing
called "Timeline". Over the past few years I have asked members to
help me with research and the feedback has been great, for which I am  
very grateful.

So this next question may seem both naive and late.

After speaking with Bill Hogan yesterday it dawned on me.

1976/7 was an incredibly important year for electronic editing because  
the 'C' format tape
machines arrived and allowed smaller companies to buy broadcast VTRs,  
acquire high
resolution images and edit them to a master tape.

While it didn't solve the issue of film finish masters for overseas  
sales , the postproduction
clients who were happy to edit via 3/4" and conform on 'C' gave rise  
to the modern Online industry
and companies like CMX and One Pass.

However I missed something. The release of Rank Cintel's FSS and its  
impact
on getting film negative to color videotape and thereby it seems  
opening up great
opportunities for electronic editing.

I would like to hear from anyone about their thoughts on the birth
of modern telecine and its impact on editing.

Best
John




From frank at opticalart.de  Tue May 26 09:08:24 2009
From: frank at opticalart.de (Frank Hellmann)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:08:24 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Dual to single link convert
In-Reply-To: <FA6F2C02-BB37-4615-A22A-38DCCDC97CC8@finishedit.com>
References: <mailman.1201.1243009651.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<FA6F2C02-BB37-4615-A22A-38DCCDC97CC8@finishedit.com>
Message-ID: <4A1BA378.8030104@opticalart.de>

Hi!

Thanks a lot for the infos.

       Best regards,

                Frank...



From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk  Tue May 26 08:27:39 2009
From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:27:39 +0100
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <C2929AEF-4CCD-499F-A326-B8A282DB0573@mac.com>
Message-ID: <D96511EC22A348C6876976E49A4C72D1@Sprocket>

I'm sure you'll hear a lot more .... But what is Cintel's FSS ??? I
worked for Cintel from 75 to 91 and never came across an FSS. Their
MKIII telecine was integral in starting the transfer of negative, but
really only after the Digiscan1(ntsc only) was introduced. Jumpscan with
5 patches flashing all over the crt was a bit of a pain to work with. 
Come on swinny, this is right up your street ... 

Graham Collett
Visible Sprockets Ltd
www.visible-sprockets.co.uk
Sprockets(telecine) Ltd
www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk
 




From shukkra at yahoo.in  Tue May 26 09:25:20 2009
From: shukkra at yahoo.in (Mr Shukkra)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:55:20 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Tig] ditto, northlignt and  arri scanners
Message-ID: <757417.55028.qm@web95306.mail.in2.yahoo.com>

 
 
 Hello,
 
 I have received mail from cintel dealer in INDIA, that the CINTEL introduced ditto scanner.
 
 Does anybody using this ditto scanner presently and how is the result  matching with other familier scanners like northlight and arri.
 
 The arri and northlight already proven in the DI industry, particularly the arri is very much successfully in the market.
 
If anyone using the ditto please let me know the details.
 
Cheers
 
Shukkran


      Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/

From rob at colorist.org  Tue May 26 09:47:55 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 11:47:55 +0300
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <D96511EC22A348C6876976E49A4C72D1@Sprocket>
References: <D96511EC22A348C6876976E49A4C72D1@Sprocket>
Message-ID: <391E01E3-5E99-4167-A753-BFD6C3E1E98F@colorist.org>


On May 26, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Graham Collett wrote:

>
> I'm sure you'll hear a lot more .... But what is Cintel's FSS ???

Flying Spot Scanner


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From ken at flight4.org  Tue May 26 12:29:08 2009
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:29:08 -0300
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <D96511EC22A348C6876976E49A4C72D1@Sprocket>
References: <C2929AEF-4CCD-499F-A326-B8A282DB0573@mac.com>
	<D96511EC22A348C6876976E49A4C72D1@Sprocket>
Message-ID: <007e01c9ddf5$30b45360$6700a8c0@flight4>

But the 2 patch Jumpscan ate the digiscan for breakfast in terms of
resolution... I think I still miss it!

FSS... Flying Spot Scanner.... Got me on that one!

I used to work for Colour Video Services, where we did many Kinescopes...
>From Quad, U-Matic...

ken robinson

  

Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Graham Collett

really only after the Digiscan1(ntsc only) was introduced. Jumpscan with
5 patches flashing all over the crt was a bit of a pain to work with. 
Come on swinny, this is right up your street ... 




From rob at colorist.org  Tue May 26 14:29:22 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:29:22 +0300
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <007e01c9ddf5$30b45360$6700a8c0@flight4>
References: <C2929AEF-4CCD-499F-A326-B8A282DB0573@mac.com>
	<D96511EC22A348C6876976E49A4C72D1@Sprocket>
	<007e01c9ddf5$30b45360$6700a8c0@flight4>
Message-ID: <17462C4B-19AD-4DA1-95D3-AB24E39CDB78@colorist.org>


On May 26, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:

> But the 2 patch Jumpscan ate the digiscan for breakfast in terms of
> resolution... I think I still miss it!

As I recall, in L.A., and it really wasn't all that long ago depending  
on your
DOB, Image Transform and CIS were doing some interesting things with
Jumpscan machines, wasn't the first pinreg machine at CIS done with a
Jumpscan?

now if we could only get Mike Waldie on here, Ken, along with Peter  
there'd
be lots to talk about, if anyone had the time.

(DOB: date of birth)
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Tue May 26 15:09:32 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:09:32 +0300
Subject: [Tig] recent additions to the TIG wiki
Message-ID: <2F0EC347-E8B4-4268-98A8-70AEC184AC8D@colorist.org>

Recent changes on the TIG wiki:

(please note these are only the most recent additions)

Calendar:
    Apple COLOR Master Class in NYC with Alex Bickel
    --(posted by Alan Rosenfeld, B&H)  (9 June)

    IBC Exhibits open (11 September)

Classifieds:
    Shadow for sale, contact shadow1 <at> colorist.org

    Cintel Rascal for sale, 59k$

    DaVinci 2K for sale, 79k$

    Cine-Tal Monitor for sale, 27k$ OBO

Available:
    Jim Mann, Freelance Colorist/DaVinci Product Specialist

    Colourist, Engineer, Programmer, System Administrator

Wanted:
    Colorists, SE Asia

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com  Tue May 26 18:33:35 2009
From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal))
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:33:35 -0700
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <17462C4B-19AD-4DA1-95D3-AB24E39CDB78@colorist.org>
References: <007e01c9ddf5$30b45360$6700a8c0@flight4>
	<17462C4B-19AD-4DA1-95D3-AB24E39CDB78@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65FC8@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Too many TLA's for me...

Bob Micheletti 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tig-bounces at colorist.org 
> [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 6:29 AM
> To: tig at colorist.org Group
> Subject: Re: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
> 
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
>  ====
> 
> 
> 
> On May 26, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Ken Robinson wrote:
> 
> > But the 2 patch Jumpscan ate the digiscan for breakfast in terms of 
> > resolution... I think I still miss it!
> 
> As I recall, in L.A., and it really wasn't all that long ago 
> depending on your DOB, Image Transform and CIS were doing 
> some interesting things with Jumpscan machines, wasn't the 
> first pinreg machine at CIS done with a Jumpscan?
> 
> now if we could only get Mike Waldie on here, Ken, along with 
> Peter there'd be lots to talk about, if anyone had the time.
> 
> (DOB: date of birth)
> --   
> Rob Lingelbach
> rob at colorist.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
> 



From videogenie at aol.com  Tue May 26 16:08:12 2009
From: videogenie at aol.com (videogenie at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 11:08:12 -0400
Subject: [Tig] AMPEX VPR 1A
Message-ID: <8CBAC2AEC393EEB-1188-3E2E@WEBMAIL-DC13.sysops.aol.com>

Does anyone have a practical day to day of this machine..*)o(*


*)0(* bls
barry shankman
bls film & video llc
Mystix Moon Production Distribution
www.mystixmoon.com 
(video email address below)
http://www.tokbox.com/bls 




From t.step at comcast.net  Tue May 26 19:19:01 2009
From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:19:01 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <ttce15ho1jhg0tift8mn9u5nscad8iuo5l@4ax.com>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>	<FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
	<k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>
	<4A168631.4080303@bosti.nl>
	<ttce15ho1jhg0tift8mn9u5nscad8iuo5l@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <962A093E-A38E-4C0D-8CFF-A83F3024C238@comcast.net>

So.... Can this scope be used in grading suites or not? Is it the same  
as the internal scopes in FCS apps accuarcy -wise?
I know nothing beats a "real" scope, but seeing how Tek or Omni etc  
are a bit out of price range...

Tom


From ken at flight4.org  Tue May 26 20:53:56 2009
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:53:56 -0300
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65FC8@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
References: <007e01c9ddf5$30b45360$6700a8c0@flight4><17462C4B-19AD-4DA1-95D3-AB24E39CDB78@colorist.org>
	<7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65FC8@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
Message-ID: <000001c9de3b$b609ebb0$6700a8c0@flight4>

TLA (had to look that one up on Google!)... FSS 

And Mike Waldie is hiding.... I checked.

But there are many funny stories to tell... However, I think they might
bore...


ken robinson

  

Argentina

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 14:34
To: Rob Lingelbach; tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] OT..Floodgates

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
 ====


Too many TLA's for me...

Bob Micheletti 




From t.step at comcast.net  Tue May 26 21:01:18 2009
From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:01:18 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <962A093E-A38E-4C0D-8CFF-A83F3024C238@comcast.net>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>	<FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
	<k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>
	<4A168631.4080303@bosti.nl>
	<ttce15ho1jhg0tift8mn9u5nscad8iuo5l@4ax.com>
	<962A093E-A38E-4C0D-8CFF-A83F3024C238@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <F345083F-8EAA-47A8-B8CE-CBA96053C844@comcast.net>

FWIW I asked Blackmagic:
How is this product better/more accurate than the scopes in Apple's  
Color or FCP? Trying to justify buying several for edit bays in our  
facility…
They replied:
To put it in quick terms, our UltraScope handles a full raster, as  
where Final Cut and Color are not full raster capable.  This is the  
main difference.


On May 26, 2009, at 12:19 PM, Tom Step wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> So.... Can this scope be used in grading suites or not? Is it the  
> same as the internal scopes in FCS apps accuarcy -wise?
> I know nothing beats a "real" scope, but seeing how Tek or Omni etc  
> are a bit out of price range...
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From bob at bluescreen.com  Wed May 27 01:52:40 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:52:40 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Blackmagic UltraScope
In-Reply-To: <962A093E-A38E-4C0D-8CFF-A83F3024C238@comcast.net>
References: <200905161405.n4GE5q8k031200@auth-smtp.hol.gr>	<4A11C8A7.6080305@bosti.nl>	<FB8CE023-72AB-478C-BFFE-052AD335C44F@uea.ac.uk>
	<k488155358284r21fvmb7956ut0f7f5j60@4ax.com>
	<4A168631.4080303@bosti.nl>
	<ttce15ho1jhg0tift8mn9u5nscad8iuo5l@4ax.com>
	<962A093E-A38E-4C0D-8CFF-A83F3024C238@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ub3p151oejmfukhpn4mm42p9mpfp937i9n@4ax.com>

>So.... Can this scope be used in grading suites or not?

That's a question only you can answer. 

The quick look I had at NAB showed a display reasonably comparable to the
Leader 7700 series rasterizers (which I think work just fine in just about any
application - I own one), but I didn't spend a great deal of time looking at
it for accuracy or anything else, really.

If they make a PCExpress interface for my laptop, I'll have a careful look.
But I'm not about to drag around a full PC to working sets as life support for
a single lane PCIe card, even at $700 for a scope.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com




From david at dcvideo.com  Tue May 26 22:01:43 2009
From: david at dcvideo.com (david at dcvideo.com)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:01:43 -0700
Subject: [Tig] AMPEX VPR 1A
In-Reply-To: <8CBAC2AEC393EEB-1188-3E2E@WEBMAIL-DC13.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CBAC2AEC393EEB-1188-3E2E@WEBMAIL-DC13.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20090526140143.je8wn6yn4kskoscs@webmail.dcvideo.com>

Hello Barry,

By "practical day to day of this machine", do you mean daily  
experience or the history of it's evolution? I do own two VPR-1A's  
plus other A format VTRs.
As for history, it was introduced in 1976, and was in production for  
only a short time as an "A" format machine, due to the introduction of  
the type "C" format.

I am acquainted with two individuals who were on the design team for  
the VPR-1 if you so desire more historical background. I also have  
about fifteen years experience with the VPR-1 and some thirty plus  
years (off and on) with the other VR series of machines.


Best Regards,

David Crosthwait
DC Video
Archived Videotape Re-mastering Services
177 West Magnolia Blvd.
Burbank, CA. 91502
818-563-1073
818-563-1177 (fax)
818-285-9942 (cell)
DCFWTX at AOL.COM
DAVID at DCVIDEO.COM
WWW.DCVIDEO.COM


Quoting videogenie at aol.com:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
>  ====
>
>
> Does anyone have a practical day to day of this machine..*)o(*
>
>
> *)0(* bls
> barry shankman
> bls film & video llc
> Mystix Moon Production Distribution
> www.mystixmoon.com
> (video email address below)
> http://www.tokbox.com/bls
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
>





From mfw at musictrax.com  Wed May 27 03:38:43 2009
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:38:43 -0700
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <17462C4B-19AD-4DA1-95D3-AB24E39CDB78@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <C641F5C3.1167B%mfw@musictrax.com>

On 5/26/09 6:29 AM, "Rob Lingelbach" <rob at colorist.org> wrote:

> As I recall, in L.A., and it really wasn't all that long ago depending
> on your
> DOB, Image Transform and CIS were doing some interesting things with
> Jumpscan machines, wasn't the first pinreg machine at CIS done with a
> Jumpscan?
>------------------------------<snip>------------------------------<

We also had a Mark IIIB Jump-scan Rank at VDI (later U.S. Video) on Highland
near Santa Monica in 1979, as used by veteran colorists Pat Miller, Pat
Kennedy, and Bill Buck (among others).  I still remember having to stop down
my transfers to tweak one of the 16+ knobs to reduce the jitter in the
frame.

30 years ago... Yikes!

--Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist
Technicolor Creative Services
Hollywood, USA

NOTE:  The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily
represent those of my employers.





From steve at veralith.com  Wed May 27 13:33:49 2009
From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 07:33:49 -0500
Subject: [Tig] freelance colorist needed - pulled from CML list
Message-ID: <44359ADB-7333-48E0-9FED-1E49421C17C8@veralith.com>

I have nothing to do with this request. I just saw it on the  
cinematographer's mailing list.


 From js at digitalsafari.net:

I need recommendations for a freelance Colorists for a terrorist drama  
shot on RED with Master Primes (DoP Manoj Soni).

We will be doing a 4K DI on Baselight, Lustre or Pablo.

Jonathan
Indian Mobile +91 9094766009



From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 15:50:37 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:50:37 +0300
Subject: [Tig] freelance colorist needed - pulled from CML list
In-Reply-To: <44359ADB-7333-48E0-9FED-1E49421C17C8@veralith.com>
References: <44359ADB-7333-48E0-9FED-1E49421C17C8@veralith.com>
Message-ID: <E8A0AAF8-2617-4EB7-B9FA-F757AD31EE17@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Steve Hullfish wrote:

> I need recommendations for a freelance Colorists for a terrorist  
> drama shot on RED with Master Primes (DoP Manoj Soni).
>
> Jonathan
> Indian Mobile +91 9094766009

Shooting on REDcam, with an Indian mobile, I'd guess then that the  
terrorist attacks come from the plains, as retribution
surely deserved?

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 15:58:00 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:58:00 +0300
Subject: [Tig] coming soon- Cintel History section.
Message-ID: <5247D7DE-A4BF-4F61-B167-D485F5DFD32D@colorist.org>

a few years ago, we had a Cintel History section on the TIG wiki that  
was lost in a
server shuffle.  The author/editor of that original section noticed  
recent discussion here and
we've been promised a restored version, soon to be featured on the wiki.

--   
Rob Lingelbach    TIG admin-founder
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 16:08:59 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:08:59 +0300
Subject: [Tig] would it ever be possible (spirit 2k)
Message-ID: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>

There are used SD and HD Spirits coming on the market that I'm sure  
their purchasers would love to
be able to convert to 2k.   Realizing that the optical system is the  
most critical and perhaps
expensive part of the machine, is there no hope that someone ever  
could, as was done with many
a scan system on Cintels (though not so much for resolution) re- 
engineer the scanning as a
3rd party 2k upgrade, economically?

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From craig at optimus.com  Wed May 27 16:36:32 2009
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:36:32 -0500
Subject: [Tig] would it ever be possible (spirit 2k)
In-Reply-To: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>

Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> There are used SD and HD Spirits coming on the market that I'm sure 
> their purchasers would love to
> be able to convert to 2k.   Realizing that the optical system is the 
> most critical and perhaps
> expensive part of the machine, is there no hope that someone ever 
> could, as was done with many
> a scan system on Cintels (though not so much for resolution) 
> re-engineer the scanning as a
> 3rd party 2k upgrade, economically?
>

The original Spirit has ( had? ) a 2K option upgrade that made it a 
DataCine. It's a card that allows 2K output. The default was Hippi 
protocol. There is (was?) an upgrade to GSN that made it possible to do 
2k at 20fps  - or so... depending on what was hooked up as the catching 
bin, and the pipe that led to it....

This may all be mute. There may or may not be parts available. The 
original Spirit, doing HD and 2K is what I run everyday. Though, we 
never upgraded to GSN, so my 2K over Hippi is about 3 Fps. Your mileage 
may vary. The new Scannity looks amazing. If I thought Film was going to 
last, I might buy one.
I need to stop reading Digital Photographer.....

Enjoy -

CL



From bobfesta at mac.com  Wed May 27 16:55:59 2009
From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 08:55:59 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
Message-ID: <9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>


On May 27, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Craig Leffel wrote:
> Scannity looks amazing. If I thought Film was going to last, I might  
> buy one.

Now there's a great topic.

What percentage of Film vs. DATA are you working on lately?

In the LA Commercial market, I see about 60% film and 40% other.

The other category comprises all of my delivery headaches.

Sizes, formats, codecs, wow.

Best,

Bob
___________________________________
Bob Festa		newhat.tv
1819 Colorado	
Santa Monica	310 401-2220
California, 90293









From mdmost at me.com  Wed May 27 17:57:01 2009
From: mdmost at me.com (Michael Most)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:57:01 -0700
Subject: [Tig]  film vs other
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>

> What percentage of Film vs. DATA are you working on lately?
> In the LA Commercial market, I see about 60% film and 40% other.

Bob, are you talking strictly about the work coming to your facility,  
or about the market in general? Because the market in general has  
changed considerably, and especially outside of L.A., editorial houses  
- and even individual editors - are handling commercial jobs shot on  
"other" devices without it ever getting to a professional colorist. I  
would say that industry wide, your figures are probably not accurate.

Mike Most
Woodland Hills, CA.




From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Wed May 27 18:12:24 2009
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:12:24 -0600
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
Message-ID: <EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>


>> In the LA Commercial market, I see about 60% film and 40% other.  
>> (Festa)
>

I do general work and its about 95+% "other".   And the 5%-or-less  
"film" comes to me as "other" -- DMin/Dmax'd on SR, so really its  
100% "other", I guess.
Solving the headaches is part of the magic.


Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca





From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 18:32:36 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:32:36 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <243956B7-8B7F-40F1-A9D2-6C155C820F89@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 8:12 PM, Joe Owens wrote:
>
>>> In the LA Commercial market, I see about 60% film and 40% other.  
>>> (Festa)
>>
>
> I do general work and its about 95+% "other".   And the 5%-or-less  
> "film" comes to me as "other" -- DMin/Dmax'd on SR, so really its  
> 100% "other", I guess.
> Solving the headaches is part of the magic.
>

a lot of this depends on budget and the experience of the DoP/ 
Director.  If film didn't already exist, I think someone would invent  
it, it's still the ultimate
archival medium, and has properties that make it a good choice for  
many situations.   In the major markets, and with DoPs who know film,  
there's no
reason not to use it if the budget allows.  Is there another medium  
that has as much contrast range, color depth, archivability,  
flexibility (meaning: completely
self-contained), and reliability (speaking of 35mm and above gauges)?

It just may not be convenient for many jobs coming through now, as is  
the case with TV series work, for example.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed May 27 18:48:57 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:48:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <243956B7-8B7F-40F1-A9D2-6C155C820F89@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
	<243956B7-8B7F-40F1-A9D2-6C155C820F89@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271243020.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 27 May 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> It just may not be convenient for many jobs coming through now, as is the 
> case with TV series work, for example.

Is anyone here aware of a list of current TV series which indicates if 
they are captured on film or directly to digital?

Usually the difference is immediately visually apparent since quite a 
lot of direct to digital is Rec.709.  Only more sophisticated 
programming uses more advanced digital cameras (or settings) with 
increased dynamic range and log encoding.  For "reality" programming, 
Rec.709 is quite appropriate, but it seems difficult to do a drama 
program in this sort of video.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From rpunger at mac.com  Wed May 27 18:28:30 2009
From: rpunger at mac.com (richard unger)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:28:30 -0400
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2BC68D14-D805-4489-A7EC-86E1880D7BEE@mac.com>

Detroit, 70film/ 30 data/hd

Rick Unger
DI/Color
Ringside Creative
248-548-2500 main
313-401-1301 cell
http://web.mac.com/rpunger


From t.step at comcast.net  Wed May 27 18:41:30 2009
From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:41:30 -0600
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
Message-ID: <7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>

As someone looking to open a colorist-centered house, I run into that  
all the time. Lots of clients are no longer interested in basic  
grading, never mind creative grading for looks. They're happy with  
some basic color tweaks done by the editor within whatever platform  
they're posting on. I wonder what that means to our slice of  
industry...? What % still do grading? and why?

I was watching two different high-profile shows on two different  
networks (HD off cable) and noticed some serious flaws with matching  
footage, and general quality of color work. If that caliber of  
programming isn't giving color much thought...
(Not mentioning names for obvious reasons)

Rethinking post world for a falafel stand...

Tom



From ted at tedlangdell.com  Wed May 27 18:55:10 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:55:10 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <E286539B-56EC-488B-A56C-758C19BE4B4B@tedlangdell.com>


On May 27, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Joe Owens wrote:

> Solving the headaches is part of the magic.


New business name?  "Magic Aspirin Workflow and Color Correction"

Ted Langdell
Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services
Marysville, CA
Main:   (530) 741-1212
Skype: 	TedLangdell

tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative  
Services since 1974



From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 19:09:54 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:09:54 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <79E96A72-4648-4B76-9371-ECCA3DFBABE8@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 8:41 PM, Tom Step wrote:

> I was watching two different high-profile shows on two different  
> networks (HD off cable) and noticed some serious flaws with matching  
> footage, and general quality of color work. If that caliber of  
> programming isn't giving color much thought...

this is weird, - I see it too-  but at least in the area of feature  
films, starting perhaps in the 80s, the 'look' of the film
became more important, in that it be innovative or original (which in  
the arts always spawns imitation, so turns back on itself), that is,
almost background to the story, and so just an exercise in  
cinematography.  Many exceptions to this, where the look and the
story and other things all come together in importance (just off the  
top of my head, one example: No Country for Old Men).

So there's no trickle-down from the features to the series, or else,  
economics has just ripped the rug out from under creativity.

> Rethinking post world for a falafel stand...

you get the falafels; Topazio and I already have plans for a taco  
stand in Taos.  Or a Tao center in Tacos.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 19:12:03 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:12:03 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <79E96A72-4648-4B76-9371-ECCA3DFBABE8@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<79E96A72-4648-4B76-9371-ECCA3DFBABE8@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <458DE8D6-4217-4ACE-B002-EC6226F03720@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 9:09 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>  always spawns imitation, so turns back on itself), that is,
> almost background to the story, and so just an exercise in  
> cinematography.

correction: foreground to the story.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From craig at optimus.com  Wed May 27 19:51:14 2009
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:51:14 -0500
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>

Bob Festa wrote:
> Now there's a great topic.
>
> What percentage of Film vs. DATA are you working on lately?
>
> In the LA Commercial market, I see about 60% film and 40% other.

Yeah, I was hoping someone agreed with me, that this topic is top shelf 
to us.....

I'm running about 50-50 right now, though house wide - including LA, 
we're about 85% other. Lots of projects finishing out of NLE's, many 
going to web. However, still lots and lots of paying grading work. Much 
of it more difficult and more time consuming than ever before. If I 
wasn't running a non-linear platform with the ability to multi-task, 
we'd never get through it all. My version of multi tasking is an 
assistant sitting on a side car station ( assist station ) and 
building/revising/converting/modifying the job from  - 2 hours ago/2 
hours from now/yesterday/tomorrow/last week/next week/last month/next month/
last year/next year.

I can say this - I have not seen ANY high speed photography in the last 
6 months ( or more ) that was *not* digital. Chicago is not the hotbed 
of production, but we do have a number of incredible tabletop houses. 
Most if not all of those guys are switching to Phantom or Weisscam. It 
makes total sense - See what you are doing, no film cost, burn, burn, 
burn. 1000 fps? No problem. No scratches, no lighting bullshit... just a 
whole nother round of artifacts, etc. that need to be worried about, but 
can be seen *ON PRODUCTION* if they look vewy vewy cawrfully.......

I disagree with Rob's assertion that film would be invented today. Given 
the choice, ANY image maker would opt for instant feedback on the images 
they are creating. Most of the guesswork is gone folks. They now know if 
stuff is sticking to the camera. They also have a harder time hiding it 
when they can't fucking figure out how to read a light meter. "Don't 
worry it will look great in transfer" means something completely 
different now.

Now, if they would stop guessing as to what LUTs are, or putting pieces 
of clear plastic in front of a Red sensor to "make it more organic and 
film like" - we'd all be right where we all said we wanted to be... 
Inserted right at the point where someone needs us to help bring it to 
life, to envision everything that's been talked about for the concept. 
There will always be looks/elements/thoughts and ideas that cannot be 
captured in camera. Then, there's always the weather.
We are still the keepers of the look; at least those of us that are good 
at what we do. At this point, we really are GE... we don't make the 
images - we make them BETTER.

Keep that in perspective, and you still have a job. Learn how to deal 
with advertising agencies - and someone will always need to you to mash 
buttons and make it look right. The guy doing it on a laptop in his 
bedroom is not going to win the agency accountability award. No matter 
what his rate is, or how fast he says he can do it. If someone wants to 
put their thumb on it, you'd better have a nice room, with a shit ton of 
power and flexibility, and you'd also better have a decent Sushi place 
nearby. Tattoos, Fashion Eyewear, Boats, Motorcycles, Cars, Vacation 
property, all nice for bonus extra credit, but not mandatory. I don't 
have most of that, and I'm still workin' everyday - though, you'll have 
to ask Bob what extras he has....

Whoops. At some point Bob, this became about everything else.... I know 
how good you are with Agency folks... and how good you are in general.
This is all old hat for you... or Red. Hats. or... something to do with 
Hats.

Be well....

CL




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 20:04:15 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:04:15 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
	<4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>
Message-ID: <2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 9:51 PM, Craig Leffel wrote:

> I disagree with Rob's assertion that film would be invented today.  
> Given the choice, ANY image maker would opt for instant feedback on  
> the images they are creating. Most of the guesswork is gone folks.  
> They now know if stuff is sticking to the camera. They also have a  
> harder time hiding it when they can't fucking figure out how to read  
> a light meter. "Don't worry it will look great in transfer" means  
> something completely different now.

I accept your disagreement and raise you 2 more: I know several  
excellent well-known DoPs who would not use any of the digital cameras  
except perhaps the D21, which
is expensive enough to rent that they still use film, and are happy to  
do so.  expletives aside :).

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 20:17:29 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:17:29 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
	<4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>
	<2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <261B2A9F-DC44-4C40-AF9B-8C7FE63E1000@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 10:04 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> I accept your disagreement and raise you 2 more: I know several  
> excellent well-known DoPs who would not use any of the digital  
> cameras except perhaps the D21, which
> is expensive enough to rent that they still use film, and are happy  
> to do so.  expletives aside :).

and just to put my 2 cents in for what I'm getting in Eastern Europe:  
about 50-50, but the numbers don't tell the story
completely, as most of the digital work I do is edited already, with  
the additional complications that it could be pre-edited
before efx, or tested with me before the pre-edit, then edited, then  
efx done, then coming back to me.  Or, the whole
thing could be with efx and I do the final;  or, no efx and I do the  
final.

I would give my opinions on the various cameras but I think those are  
some bits for another day.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From alanr at bhphoto.com  Wed May 27 20:21:07 2009
From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:21:07 -0400
Subject: [Tig] OT..Floodgates
In-Reply-To: <C641F5C3.1167B%mfw@musictrax.com>
Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D662285@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local>



At Rombex in 1977 we had the first Jumpscan machine in the US, #2 off the assembly line (#1 went from NAB that year directly to a facility in Canada.)  Lots of stories.  For the record, the first negative to tape finish was a corporate training video for Citibank on the then new and yet to be instituted ATM machines.

Alan Rosenfeld
The Studio at B&H



From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 20:23:59 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:23:59 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <C99DE5A8-0C8F-4DF4-8980-7D174B460D5A@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 8:12 PM, Joe Owens wrote:

> I do general work and its about 95+% "other".   And the 5%-or-less  
> "film" comes to me as "other" -- DMin/Dmax'd on SR, so really its  
> 100% "other", I guess.
> Solving the headaches is part of the magic.

forward-thinking.  I've learned a lot about codecs and LUTs and once  
you crack your predisposition (as a tenured colorist)
against the lack of range in digital acquisition, it does become  
fun.   There are some drawbacks, like, will the client wait
until you work out what exactly it is that they've brought you, so you  
can run the material through the proper mangler.
I run regular workshops to address this situation, and indeed, in the  
last 6 months, there has been a logarithmic ascension
of quantity of work shot digitally vs. that shot on film.  The curve  
is still rising, don't know where it will flatten.   If it does.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From lists at neonmargarita.com  Wed May 27 20:24:31 2009
From: lists at neonmargarita.com (Jeff Heusser)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:24:31 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
	<4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>
	<2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <057E7B74-2A09-44E7-AC07-071F0F9AC93B@neonmargarita.com>

That would be great if they were the sole decision makers... and maybe  
those guys are but the theme I kept hearing when covering meetings  
for  stories for fxguide (links below) is that more and more that  
decision includes the DP but so many other factors and voices are in  
the mix.

http://www.fxguide.com/qt/868/ves-and-asc-team-up-for-image-quality
http://www.fxguide.com/qt/952/hd-expo-and-continuing-the-image-quality-discussion

I'd also like to see what you guys think about my partner in fxguide  
Mike Seymour's post on the Deans Blog at fxphd:
http://www.fxphd.com/blog/620/kodak-250d-vision-3-launch

Great thread by the way...

Jeff
---
Jeff Heusser
neonmargarita.com
jeff at neonmargarita.com
@neonmarg
fxguide.com   fxphd.com




On May 27, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> I accept your disagreement and raise you 2 more: I know several  
> excellent well-known DoPs who would not use any of the digital  
> cameras except perhaps the D21, which
> is expensive enough to rent that they still use film, and are happy  
> to do so.  expletives aside :).
>
> --  Rob Lingelbach
> rob at colorist.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 20:35:55 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:35:55 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <057E7B74-2A09-44E7-AC07-071F0F9AC93B@neonmargarita.com>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
	<4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>
	<2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
	<057E7B74-2A09-44E7-AC07-071F0F9AC93B@neonmargarita.com>
Message-ID: <7314E61E-DA67-48D6-9861-89E2E948DEE9@colorist.org>

Jeff's articles as referenced below are extremely interesting and in  
my humble opinion, true.

On May 27, 2009, at 10:24 PM, Jeff Heusser wrote:

> That would be great if they were the sole decision makers... and  
> maybe those guys are but the theme I kept hearing when covering  
> meetings for  stories for fxguide (links below) is that more and  
> more that decision includes the DP but so many other factors and  
> voices are in the mix.
>
> http://www.fxguide.com/qt/868/ves-and-asc-team-up-for-image-quality
> http://www.fxguide.com/qt/952/hd-expo-and-continuing-the-image-quality-discussion

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 20:39:53 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:39:53 +0300
Subject: [Tig] text clips from Jeff Heusser's fxguide references
Message-ID: <4B2B6E88-A360-41FC-9E1B-463C5554126B@colorist.org>

Please refer to Jeff Heusser's very recent post for the complete URLs  
to these articles cited below.


#1, from the first of Jeff Heusser's references, an excerpt:

“At the moment 35mm film with a 6k scan is the only way of capturing  
images to survive a 4k workflow and projection.”

There were direct shots taken at the RED camera, in fact all digital  
cinematography was demonstrated to be inferior, and the talk ended  
showing 16mm film split screen to noise reduced 16mm film. This split  
screen was used to prove a point about Dynamic Range vs. Grain and the  
perception of image quality, but considering the intense quality focus  
of the talk I found it ironic that it ended on, and that the only  
images shown were denoised 16mm film.


#2, from the second of Jeff Heusser's references, an excerpt:

An issue we heard about at the VES/ASC event was that of  
Cinematographers not getting paid for post production. It has long  
been tradition in films that they supervise that process, but they are  
not paid for it. What used to involve a few days of color timing can  
become months in a DI suite, and this has made payment a rising issue.  
Wally said that it’s a matter of maintaining control and that they  
will need the support of Directors to get paid for this part of the  
project. Interestingly “Dark Knight” was a photochemical finish, not a  
DI. He said they reviewed dailies on film and he never saw anything on  
video (compare this to the comments at the VES/ASC event). He is  
worried that this is coming to an end but Christopher Nolan likes to  
work this way and added that “when you make the studio a billion  
dollars, you can tend to be able to work the way you like”.

Answering a question about the post process and DI he told the story  
of being on a panel recently where everyone else had done a DI and  
were happy with the results. Afterwards, he was walking with one of  
the other panelists who got a call about some major color issue with  
files that had not been sent out properly. Wally offered that with a  
film master you know what you have, that printer lights will be  
universal, where the digital workflow is not as absolute and commented  
“it’s fine to take a leap in technology as long as it’s an advancement”.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From rob at colorist.org  Wed May 27 20:52:23 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:52:23 +0300
Subject: [Tig] text clips from Jeff Heusser's fxguide references
In-Reply-To: <4B2B6E88-A360-41FC-9E1B-463C5554126B@colorist.org>
References: <4B2B6E88-A360-41FC-9E1B-463C5554126B@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <3586008B-13F5-4874-894D-0CE73897E0CE@colorist.org>


On May 27, 2009, at 10:39 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> Please refer to Jeff Heusser's very recent post for the complete  
> URLs to these articles cited below.

there is so much background to this that it would take volumes of  
archives and great notebooks of
new text to assimilate the information in a form that clients,  
colorists, and DoPs could understand.

We should be conscious of the stampede toward digital acquisition.   
And wary, until there are cameras
that can perform.  please refer to the immediately previous posts and  
their excerpts to form your own
opinion.


--   
Rob Lingelbach   TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org




From stretchroc at gmail.com  Wed May 27 22:59:47 2009
From: stretchroc at gmail.com (Anders Uhl)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:59:47 -0400
Subject: [Tig]  film vs other
In-Reply-To: <2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
References: <5FE56F67-3D41-4B58-8157-677092FBC455@colorist.org>
	<4A1D5E00.7030800@optimus.com>
	<9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F@mac.com>
	<4A1D8BA2.1060908@optimus.com>
	<2162160F-EADF-4D38-B308-51E49308869C@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <E36DF87F-70E9-498E-8B70-91741297795D@gmail.com>

I'm with Rob on this one.  All other arguments aside - film is hands  
down superior in image quality when done correctly.

As far as I'm concerned, I am far more confident when I shoot film  
with a light meter than I am with a "properly graded" monitor and I  
can work with a much higher degree of subtlety.  If you know what you  
are doing, you know what you are getting.  Film is wysiwyg if shot by  
a professional.  Digital... er... not always.

I'm also disgruntled by the cutting out of proper colorists in the  
process where digital is concerned.  I've had some grading fiasco's  
dealing with "senior" colorists who have less than 2 years  
experience.. :-[

I know that there are economic reasons to use D21/Genesis but I've  
never had a project on which the cost makes sense.

I recently had an interview regarding a feature film and was asked  
"what format do you want to shoot?".  I said that I was thinking  
about 2P/T-Scope and the guy said, "thank god you didn't say Red!".

Best regards,

anders
dir/dp
east coast, US



From mdmost at me.com  Wed May 27 23:06:52 2009
From: mdmost at me.com (Michael Most)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:06:52 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com>


> Is anyone here aware of a list of current TV series which indicates if
> they are captured on film or directly to digital?

As of next season, it will be much easier to just list those that are  
on film, because that list is going to be very short. You can thank  
the economy, general technical trends, and perhaps most of all, your  
friends over at SAG for the accelerated pace of the change. If I look  
at the fall schedule, here's a list of film shows (the ones with a *  
are still up in the air regarding capture medium):

Fall Schedule: Heroes, House*, One Tree Hill*, Two and a Half Men, CSI  
Miami, NCIS, Criminal Minds*, Eastwick*, CSI New York, Greys Anatomy,  
CSI, Fringe*, Private Practice, Ghost Whisperer, Ugly Betty*, Medium*,  
Dollhouse*, Numbers.

Midseason: Chuck*, 24.

Every other show on the schedule will be on some type of digital  
camera, primarily Genesis and F23, with some use of Red. Sitcoms, for  
the most part, are on F900 and F900 variants.

Mike Most
Woodland Hills, CA.



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed May 27 23:46:25 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:46:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com>
References: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271738540.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 27 May 2009, Michael Most wrote:
>
> Fall Schedule: Heroes, House*, One Tree Hill*, Two and a Half Men, CSI Miami, 
> NCIS, Criminal Minds*, Eastwick*, CSI New York, Greys Anatomy, CSI, Fringe*, 
> Private Practice, Ghost Whisperer, Ugly Betty*, Medium*, Dollhouse*, Numbers.

I assume that Greys Anatomy, Ugly Betty, and Desperate Housewives 
(which you did not list) would all use similar decisions.  These are 
all broadcast on ABC and have historically been produced with very 
high quality.  The production of Ugly Betty has been quite innovative. 
Both Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives normally provide very bright 
and vibrant images.  Images from Greys Anatomy would be more 
challenging for digital.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From mdmost at me.com  Thu May 28 00:07:04 2009
From: mdmost at me.com (Michael Most)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:07:04 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271738540.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271738540.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <9D387D92-FCD6-4DDF-BED9-22EF6440E34E@me.com>


On May 27, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> I assume that Greys Anatomy, Ugly Betty, and Desperate Housewives  
> (which you did not list) would all use similar decisions.  These are  
> all broadcast on ABC and have historically been produced with very  
> high quality.  The production of Ugly Betty has been quite  
> innovative. Both Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives normally  
> provide very bright and vibrant images.  Images from Greys Anatomy  
> would be more challenging for digital.

You are correct, I missed Desperate Housewives, which has been and  
will be on film.

Something being "more challenging for digital" has no bearing on the  
production medium anymore. The criteria are primarily legacy (i.e., if  
a show already has a couple of years in the can on film - although  
that didn't seem to influence Warner Bros. when they agreed to do the  
last 7 episodes of "ER" on Red), budget, and above the line  
contractual obligations and/or relations. And, if you're a new series,  
there is very little chance that any of that will matter because the  
studios have decreed that unless and until SAG comes to their senses,  
all future television production will be done on AFTRA contracts -  
thus mandating the use of digital capture. Besides, I would argue that  
it's now gotten to the point where if your delivery medium is HD  
video, there's very, very little you can't capture on a modern digital  
camera with essentially the same effectiveness as film given the same  
lighting and grip package, a good cameraman, and a good colorist. I  
offer as Exhibit "A" the show "Smallville," which switched from film  
to the Genesis this year. That show, to my eyes, looked at least as  
good - if not better - this past season than in any previous season  
(and, notably, has been nominated for multiple ASC awards and won in  
2007). That may not make those who own telecines very happy, but it's  
the truth.

Mike Most
Woodland Hills, CA.




From rob at colorist.org  Thu May 28 00:10:51 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:10:51 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <9D387D92-FCD6-4DDF-BED9-22EF6440E34E@me.com>
References: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271738540.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<9D387D92-FCD6-4DDF-BED9-22EF6440E34E@me.com>
Message-ID: <03CC0B2B-27BF-4B72-BCD5-AA8BAC9394A3@colorist.org>


On May 28, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Michael Most wrote:
>  I offer as Exhibit "A" the show "Smallville," which switched from  
> film to the Genesis this year. That show, to my eyes, looked at  
> least as good - if not better - this past season than in any  
> previous season (and, notably, has been nominated for multiple ASC  
> awards and won in 2007). That may not make those who own telecines  
> very happy, but it's the truth.

Genesis is one of the systems that Roger Deakins ranks as extremely  
superior to RED.


--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From mdmost at me.com  Thu May 28 05:39:48 2009
From: mdmost at me.com (Michael Most)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:39:48 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <9D387D92-FCD6-4DDF-BED9-22EF6440E34E@me.com>
References: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271738540.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<9D387D92-FCD6-4DDF-BED9-22EF6440E34E@me.com>
Message-ID: <312356B5-E009-4521-9F92-9C971A1F9EFA@me.com>

I've gotten some private emails regarding the list I posted. The list  
of film shows is actually shrinking even faster than I thought.

I missed a few shows in the list, including Desperate Housewives,  
Brothers and Sisters, and Lost. Of these, Desperate Housewives and  
Lost are remaining on film, unless something changes in the next month  
or so. Brothers and Sisters is likely going to digital. Of the shows I  
already mentioned, it's been brought to my attention that a number of  
them are indeed going to digital capture. This includes CSI Miami, CSI  
New York, Criminal Minds, NCIS, and Brothers and Sisters (already  
noted). And 24 will start on film (I think they actually started this  
week) but not necessarily remain on it.

Mike Most
Woodland Hills, CA.






From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu  Thu May 28 02:45:14 2009
From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:45:14 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Digital
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1243.1243465865.28133.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.1243.1243465865.28133.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <f211a4d110947.4a1db46a@mail.nyu.edu>

I am growing tired of the bias against digital. Especially since most of the aesthetic problems occur in the analog domain: the sensors or in AD conversion. Sensor tech is changing fast. A to D is an art. Eventually someone will get it cost effectively right and everyone else will follow.

---Larry Towers
TSOA Film/TV





From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Thu May 28 11:00:24 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:00:24 +0100
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271243020.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
	<243956B7-8B7F-40F1-A9D2-6C155C820F89@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271243020.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <FD62EA67-EA5F-466C-B2A8-1D0E5AE0C4D4@autotv.co.uk>


On 27 May 2009, at 18:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>
> Usually the difference is immediately visually apparent since quite  
> a lot of direct to digital is Rec.709.  Only more sophisticated  
> programming uses more advanced digital cameras (or settings) with  
> increased dynamic range and log encoding.  For "reality"  
> programming, Rec.709 is quite appropriate, but it seems difficult  
> to do a drama program in this sort of video.
>

Bob, your use of the term "dynamic range" to describe dynamic  
resolution (ie bit depth, word length etc) is problematic. Dynamic  
range is more like the 'light gamut' than anything else, and depends  
primarily on the capabilities of the camera (or scanner detector +  
colourist). Good camera sensors offer about 10stops of (linear)  
dynamic range, where film might give as much as 14stops of (non- 
linear) DR. How this range is quantised, gamma corrected, graded and  
encoded will give the dynamic resolution, but this can obviously be  
changed both in camera or during film transfer. Colour space is  
obviously an important issue, but it certainly does not define  
dynamic range by itself.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Thu May 28 16:12:06 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:12:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <FD62EA67-EA5F-466C-B2A8-1D0E5AE0C4D4@autotv.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<EFE28C8A-3AF3-45BA-9724-A7E7E483A031@prestodigital.ca>
	<243956B7-8B7F-40F1-A9D2-6C155C820F89@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271243020.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<FD62EA67-EA5F-466C-B2A8-1D0E5AE0C4D4@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905280945150.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 28 May 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
> Bob, your use of the term "dynamic range" to describe dynamic resolution (ie 
> bit depth, word length etc) is problematic. Dynamic range is more like the 
> 'light gamut' than anything else, and depends primarily on the capabilities 
> of the camera (or scanner detector + colourist). Good camera sensors offer

Agreed.  By "Rec.709" I am talking about the whole Rec.709 
specification and not just the colorspace primaries.  So I am 
including use of 8 or 10 bits per sample, gamma encoding, and YCbCr 
encoding, such as may be passed over HDSDI or transmitted via a ATSC 
HD standard. This is the base signal commonly known as "HD" 4:2:2. 
The useful dynamic range of this signal is pretty well understood and 
it is set in concrete.  Rec.709 is intended for prepared works which 
are ready to view.

I totally agree that using a different encoding can allow more 
original camera data to be preserved.  This is what many of the 
high-end cameras are supporting.  For example, Cineon Log, Thompson 
FilmStream (Viper), and Panavision Panalog, are used.

The presentation associated with Panalog as used in the Genesis camera 
provides a good overview of the various issues and why an alternate to 
Rec.709 is useful.  According to the presentation, the Genesis camera 
offers a dynamic range which is 6X what Rec.709 can support.  See 
"http://media.panavision.com/html/ADI/panalog.html".

Disclaimer: I don't have any relationship with Panavision although I 
have exchanged email with James Pearman a few times.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com  Thu May 28 17:36:58 2009
From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal))
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:36:58 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Digital
In-Reply-To: <f211a4d110947.4a1db46a@mail.nyu.edu>
References: <mailman.1243.1243465865.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<f211a4d110947.4a1db46a@mail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65FD4@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Let me know when that happens...until then I'll keep my bias turned up.

Bob Micheletti,
Engineer Universal Pictures, Hollywood
 
> 
> I am growing tired of the bias against digital. Especially 
> since most of the aesthetic problems occur in the analog 
> domain: the sensors or in AD conversion. Sensor tech is 
> changing fast. A to D is an art. Eventually someone will get 
> it cost effectively right and everyone else will follow.
> 
> ---Larry Towers



From tig at bosti.nl  Thu May 28 13:09:42 2009
From: tig at bosti.nl (Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:09:42 +0200
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>

Hi Tom,

Well over here (Netherlands/Belgium) I would say for feature film it is 
about 65% film and 35% other, it fluctuates each year a bit though. I 
also get some rumors that people are more and more grading with the 
editor. Personally I think these are mainly projects which would 
otherwise never get any grading at all. So if you see it in that 
perspective, it is only an improvement.

Perhaps new directors/DOPs get a bit of the feel of the necessity of 
grading and when their projects get bigger they will make the transition 
to a real grading suite.

Most of the HD/RED pioneers here only use digital acquisition out of 
budget reasons, if they have the choice most of them know that film is 
in all ways superior.. Some of the old-skool HD pioneers actually 
switched back to film because the whole DI thing has gotten much more 
affordable then like 5 years ago.

However I do think that it is just a matter of time until a camera is 
developed that can capture more light without compression so everyone 
would do wise to always stay on top of things and not just ignore the trend.

My 20 eurocents :-)
Floor


Tom Step wrote:
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> As someone looking to open a colorist-centered house, I run into that 
> all the time. Lots of clients are no longer interested in basic 
> grading, never mind creative grading for looks. They're happy with 
> some basic color tweaks done by the editor within whatever platform 
> they're posting on. I wonder what that means to our slice of 
> industry...? What % still do grading? and why?
>
> I was watching two different high-profile shows on two different 
> networks (HD off cable) and noticed some serious flaws with matching 
> footage, and general quality of color work. If that caliber of 
> programming isn't giving color much thought...
> (Not mentioning names for obvious reasons)
>
> Rethinking post world for a falafel stand...
>
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
>




From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Fri May 29 06:37:06 2009
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:37:06 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
Message-ID: <43298eae0905282237j7680312es9e3b02641fdbde85@mail.gmail.com>

Mike M. and everybody
This is US TV biased
I would love to say it's the cameras dynamic range and great digital work flows.
But I have been watching this from the sidelines. Doing Stereo
Animation grading.
My roots in Color Correction are digital acquisition, work flows, VFX
integration. and new trends, on-set color correction, mobile theaters,
 on-set LUTS.
I'm am a member of IATSE 639 Animators Guild and local 700 Editors Guild.
None of that really matters. Lack of a SAG contract made the decisions.
They shot more digital than film for pilots. That means more shooters
and post houses worked out the kinks because they had to.
That's current the trend.
"It is what it is" that's what producers tell me when I have to work a Saturday.

enjoy,
Jeff Olm
Dreamworks Animation


>From the Hollywood Reporter
TV studios act on a shift to AFTRA

December 16, 2008 A switch in actor union representation on broadcast
TV from SAG to AFTRA is shifting into high gear in light of the
protracted contract negotiations between SAG and AMPTP and the
threatened SAG strike. "With all the uncertainty surrounding the
stalled negotiations with SAG, 20th TV is considering shooting its
spring pilots under the AFTRA agreement," the studio said Tuesday.
Shows shot on digital video, including most cable series and some
broadcast comedies, come under AFTRA jurisdiction.


http://digitalmedialaw.blogspot.com/2009/03/pilot-season-94-aftra.html

Wednesday, March 11, 2009
Pilot Season 94% AFTRA

66 out of 70 TV pilots this year will be shot under AFTRA
jurisdiction, reports the Hollywood Reporter today. That’s 94% for
AFTRA and only 6% for SAG. Meanwhile, I’ve been told somewhat
different numbers that calculate out to about 87% AFTRA. Either way,
it’s a 180 from typical figures, as I’m told that AFTRA typically has
10% or fewer pilots.

Who’s to credit for this development? Primarily Membership First, the
SAG hardline faction whose obstructionism over the last year has also
led to SAG members working under 2007-2008 rates, while AFTRA members
have enjoyed a 3.5% raise since June 30 of last year. The pilot
flip-flop is also due to the cost advantages of digital production as
opposed to film, but the SAG hardliners’ tactics have clearly
accelerated the transition, and the studios are unlikely to turn back
in years to come.

It’s ironic that Membership First, whose partisans generally hate
AFTRA, has turned out to be one of the best things to have happened to
that union in a long time. By holding out for the best deal
imaginable, rather than the best deal achievable, MF boosted its
rival.

Now SAG’s new management is left with seven expired (or, in one case,
nearly expired) contracts, as well as TV/theatrical negotiations so
stale that contract expiration date has become a major issue. Cleaning
up MF’s mess will be a tall order: not only have the hard-liners
driven pilots (and thus series) away, they’ve educated the industry
that it can function without SAG, at least in TV. Nick Counter, the
retiring head of the AMPTP (studio alliance), could scarcely have
asked for a better going away present.



From andreas at smalfilm.no  Fri May 29 08:24:31 2009
From: andreas at smalfilm.no (=?us-ascii?Q?Andreas_Wideroe?=)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:24:31 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Pogle / Andix question
Message-ID: <1A1B191A1C864748A2E588F96BD0DD4A@kontoret>

Hi,
Just wondering how I can change what user Pogle/Andix starts up
with. I'd like it to start up with my username/profile instead of
another which currently loads. I guess I have to be Master to change
this, but I can't find any settings for changing start-up
username/profile.

Anyone can point me in the right direction?

Thanks!
Andreas
 
---
Norsk Smalfilm AS <post at smalfilm.no>
http://www.smalfilm.no

Filmshooting | Com - http://www.filmshooting.com

Tel:	(+47) 38 17 99 16
Fax:	(+47) 38 02 33 84




From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri May 29 10:19:49 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:19:49 +0100
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
Message-ID: <66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>


On 28 May 2009, at 13:09, Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl wrote:
>
> Most of the HD/RED pioneers here only use digital acquisition out  
> of budget reasons, if they have the choice most of them know that  
> film is in all ways superior.

Film is in ALL WAYS SUPERIOR? Film has a wider dynamic range and not  
much else. I still remember the first time I saw a documentary  
interior shot (available light only) from a DigiBeta camcorder rather  
than the then typical Arri 16SR / URSA combination. I was amazed by  
the sensitivity of the camera, the immediacy and realism of the  
images. I attributed what I was seeing to superior MTF, and I saw the  
same thing when I first encountered the Canon D30 DSLR.

High dynamic range sensors already exist, it's just that no-one's put  
one in a movie camera yet. If film really was superior in every way,  
why would anyone use digital acquisition (or video, as we used to  
call it)?

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From tig at bosti.nl  Fri May 29 11:13:51 2009
From: tig at bosti.nl (Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:13:51 +0200
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4A1FB55F.8020209@bosti.nl>

Hi Adrian,

You are right, my "in all ways" was a bit of an overstatement. In life 
there is never such thing as "in all ways"... Currently all ways of 
capturing light is a compromise. But overall my judgment is that film 
still has the best cards. Ofcourse, especially in documentary film there 
is a downside in using film, unless you got a really predictable subject 
to shoot. But otherwise using Digital Betacam or XDCAM HD makes a lot of 
sense indeed. But to be a little mean about it, what if that documentary 
shot on Digibeta was a sudden success and extra funds would be made 
available for a theatrical release? Also, when light is unpredictable 
film can be very forgiving too... Especially on the overexpose side of 
things.

Talking about grain in low light conditions with film can be an issue 
sure. But it is bold to say that for example RED is superior to film 
because of the lack of typical noise. I am no color-scientist but my 
evil eye tell me the lack of noise on RED is mainly due to the wavelet 
compression more then to its great sensor. There is grain, it is just 
structured/packed in bigger blobs :-)

DSLR is a whole different story because there you can shoot in real RAW, 
you don't have the issues of how to post-process your sensor data 
without making a compromise.

It might just be a matter of taste too...

-Floor

Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
> On 28 May 2009, at 13:09, Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl wrote:
>>
>> Most of the HD/RED pioneers here only use digital acquisition out of 
>> budget reasons, if they have the choice most of them know that film 
>> is in all ways superior.
>
> Film is in ALL WAYS SUPERIOR? Film has a wider dynamic range and not 
> much else. I still remember the first time I saw a documentary 
> interior shot (available light only) from a DigiBeta camcorder rather 
> than the then typical Arri 16SR / URSA combination. I was amazed by 
> the sensitivity of the camera, the immediacy and realism of the 
> images. I attributed what I was seeing to superior MTF, and I saw the 
> same thing when I first encountered the Canon D30 DSLR.
>
> High dynamic range sensors already exist, it's just that no-one's put 
> one in a movie camera yet. If film really was superior in every way, 
> why would anyone use digital acquisition (or video, as we used to call 
> it)?
>
> -- 
> Adrian Thomas
> AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
> 35 BEDFORDBURY
> LONDON WC2N 4DU
> www.autotv.co.uk
> +44 (0) 20 7240 2073
> -- 
>
>
>




From rob at colorist.org  Fri May 29 13:01:00 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:01:00 +0300
Subject: [Tig] fx question NBA spots
Message-ID: <97DB7077-820E-4A3E-92BE-655A57A93206@colorist.org>

NBA promo spots.   Two players putting moves on each other, empty  
arena.  Then when they go up, full arena.   Back down to the court  
with empty arena.   Are these just massive rotosocopes, or was  
something special used?   Camera not locked off, background realistic.

thanks for any tips on how these were done.
--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From cemoz101 at yahoo.com  Fri May 29 13:08:45 2009
From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 05:08:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Tig] fx question NBA spots
In-Reply-To: <97DB7077-820E-4A3E-92BE-655A57A93206@colorist.org>
References: <97DB7077-820E-4A3E-92BE-655A57A93206@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <82480.35276.qm@web34303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Hi Rob!

Very likely it is roto work... I knew people that did promo spots for various TV Networks, and it usually is the case ...

It is an art on its own I reckon and NOT something I enjoyed doing before becoming a colourist! HAHA! :)

Cheers!

Cem Ozkilicci
Freelance Colourist enjoying the sun and fun! ...




----- Original Message ----
From: Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org>
To: Telecine Internet Group <tig at colorist.org>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:01:00 PM
Subject: [Tig] fx question NBA spots

Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
2190 subscribers as of May 2009
Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
====


NBA promo spots.   Two players putting moves on each other, empty arena.  Then when they go up, full arena.   Back down to the court with empty arena.   Are these just massive rotosocopes, or was something special used?   Camera not locked off, background realistic.

thanks for any tips on how these were done.
--  Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org

_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



      __________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now
http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.



From lists at neonmargarita.com  Fri May 29 14:00:30 2009
From: lists at neonmargarita.com (Jeff Heusser)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 06:00:30 -0700
Subject: [Tig] fx question NBA spots
In-Reply-To: <97DB7077-820E-4A3E-92BE-655A57A93206@colorist.org>
References: <97DB7077-820E-4A3E-92BE-655A57A93206@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <87492131-8795-4FA8-BCA1-B7CBDB180324@neonmargarita.com>

We did a story on fxguide on these spots:  http://www.fxguide.com/article532.html

Jeff
---
Jeff Heusser
neonmargarita.com
jeff at neonmargarita.com
@neonmarg
fxguide.com   fxphd.com







On May 29, 2009, at 5:01 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> 2190 subscribers as of May 2009
> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG.
> ====
>
>
> NBA promo spots.   Two players putting moves on each other, empty  
> arena.  Then when they go up, full arena.   Back down to the court  
> with empty arena.   Are these just massive rotosocopes, or was  
> something special used?   Camera not locked off, background realistic.
>
> thanks for any tips on how these were done.
> --  Rob Lingelbach
> rob at colorist.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3




From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk  Fri May 29 14:48:51 2009
From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:48:51 +0100
Subject: [Tig] New Collett
In-Reply-To: <1A1B191A1C864748A2E588F96BD0DD4A@kontoret>
Message-ID: <F679FEB35C044993B21EB51B9A8617CB@Sprocket>


Hello Everyone,
                       I would like to tell the whole world that at
10:22 on thursday morning Alessandro John Martin Collett became the
newest member of the Collett family weighing in at 3kg. Mother and baby
are both fine.

Graham Collett
Visible Sprockets Ltd
www.visible-sprockets.co.uk
Sprockets(telecine) Ltd
www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk




From lists at neonmargarita.com  Fri May 29 15:09:36 2009
From: lists at neonmargarita.com (Jeff Heusser)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:09:36 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5634D401-B14C-45A3-BE36-AF8BFA10BF97@neonmargarita.com>

>> On 28 May 2009, at 13:09, Florentijn Bos|bosti.nl wrote:
>>>
>>> Most of the HD/RED pioneers here only use digital acquisition out  
>>> of budget reasons, if they have the choice most of them know that  
>>> film is in all ways superior.


I would question that "film is in all ways superior" statement as well.

I recently finished compositing some well shot RED green screen  
footage and was struck by the joy of not having to deal with the  
typical film artifacts to pull the key. Overall it was one of the best  
keying experiences I had in years.

But... yesterday I keyed some 35mm film images in the morning and was  
struck but how much time I spent dealing with grain, in the afternoon  
I had some marginal RED material (I got DPX frames of with no idea how  
they were processed or shot) and I spent substantial time dealing with  
compression issues. Ironically when it comes to actually putting  
things together I miss the grain as it adds another blending element  
that we are used to... artistic artifacts if you will.

 From a compositing view I think wise use of film technology (not  
shooting greenscreens on 500ASA film, pushed, comes to mind) and  
intelligent shooting with digital acquisition while understanding and  
working within the current limitations can both produce excellent  
results.  The issue is we are routinely given horrific green screens  
shot on film but because they had to save money on a too small  
lighting package, shot on a too small stage, keys that should take a  
couple hours take a couple days and are vastly inferior to a properly  
shot element. But we pull it off... my big fear as we move to digital  
is those who shoot beyond the limitations (by choice, ignorance or  
budget) and expect similar results are in for a rude surprise.


> On May 29, 2009, at 2:19 AM, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>> High dynamic range sensors already exist, it's just that no-one's  
>> put one in a movie camera yet. If film really was superior in every  
>> way, why would anyone use digital acquisition (or video, as we used  
>> to call it)?


I was talking to a person involved in sensor technology and asked why  
we don't have sensors that do HDR in real time. He said they exist or  
can be made but not in a form factor that would work with existing  
lenses... it will happen, we're just not there yet.

Jeff
---
Jeff Heusser
neonmargarita.com
jeff at neonmargarita.com
@neonmarg
fxguide.com   fxphd.com




From stretchroc at gmail.com  Fri May 29 14:22:05 2009
From: stretchroc at gmail.com (Anders Uhl)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:22:05 -0400
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1ADA8E45-FD50-4311-9C37-CE289C4E1712@gmail.com>


On May 29, 2009, at 5:19, Adrian Thomas wrote:

> Film is in ALL WAYS SUPERIOR? Film has a wider dynamic range and  
> not much else.

Resolution, color depth, creative flexibility, consistency,  
archiveability, format flexibility (because it is human readable it  
can be transferred to any format), natural motion handling.  "Not  
much else"?

Best Regards,

anders

++++++++++++++++
anders uhl
director cameraman
new york





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri May 29 16:34:37 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:34:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <5634D401-B14C-45A3-BE36-AF8BFA10BF97@neonmargarita.com>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
	<5634D401-B14C-45A3-BE36-AF8BFA10BF97@neonmargarita.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0905291023000.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 29 May 2009, Jeff Heusser wrote:
>
> I was talking to a person involved in sensor technology and asked why we 
> don't have sensors that do HDR in real time. He said they exist or can be 
> made but not in a form factor that would work with existing lenses... it will 
> happen, we're just not there yet.

The fundamental problem is that large sensor-sites are required for 
low-light situations.  But to save money many/most digital cameras are 
using smaller sensors.  At the same time, there is a desire for more 
pixels.  This is one reason why quite a lot of "old" HD shot on 
digital cameras looks better than new digital HD.  The "old" HD 
cameras were using full-sized sensors with full-sized lenses.

For something closer to "HDR" you need to capture multiple exposures 
for the same frame.  By reading several times in quick succession, 
this could be done using sensor devices which support a 
non-destructive read.  The first read cycle is for very bright objects 
and the last is for very dark objects.  It is still a challenge to 
adequately capture very dark objects in 1/24th of a second.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From jfmann at optimum.net  Fri May 29 16:06:36 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:06:36 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Delivering Digital Cinema
In-Reply-To: <82480.35276.qm@web34303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <97DB7077-820E-4A3E-92BE-655A57A93206@colorist.org>
	<82480.35276.qm@web34303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c9e06f$0f800690$2e8013b0$@net>

At the next  SMPTE-NY Section Meeting on June 3, 2009 the subject will be
"Delivering Digital Cinema" at the Cantor Film Center/NYU.
Please go to 
http://www.smpteny.org/

to register.

I have entered this event into the TIG calendar at:
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main


Jim Mann
Colorist/Product Specialist 
C 516-250-0909
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann










From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Fri May 29 16:19:12 2009
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:19:12 -0600
Subject: [Tig] "in all ways superior"
In-Reply-To: <5634D401-B14C-45A3-BE36-AF8BFA10BF97@neonmargarita.com>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
	<5634D401-B14C-45A3-BE36-AF8BFA10BF97@neonmargarita.com>
Message-ID: <DF2D5705-6781-4740-80D4-01F6A0E97A12@prestodigital.ca>


On 29-May-09, at 8:09 AM, Jeff Heusser wrote:

> why we don't have sensors that do HDR in real time. He said they  
> exist or can be made but not in a form factor that would work with  
> existing lenses... it will happen, we're just not there yet.

Just as a general observation, after the obvious differences have  
been dealt with, over a certain imaging resolution it all does seem  
to come back to the glass.
If you have not done so or haven't been made aware of the excellent  
streaming seminar  (linked from the CML) hosted by Larry Thorpe and  
John Galt that is on the Panavision site, it is time well invested.
"Demystifying Pixels" is more than about square vs. non-square, it  
also spends some time dealing with apparent sharpness as a power  
function that has little to do with absolute resolution.
If you want to discuss film vs. "other" in all its forms  
intelligently, it really is required viewing.


Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca





From peter at kaurus.com  Fri May 29 16:41:07 2009
From: peter at kaurus.com (Peter Sutton)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:41:07 +0100
Subject: [Tig] New Collett
In-Reply-To: <F679FEB35C044993B21EB51B9A8617CB@Sprocket>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA6fNEjWGbCEKIC5YzUNrP5cKAAAAQAAAAxMoV/QA3iECEOU3Veu5T8QEAAAAA@kaurus.com>



On behalf a tiny part of that world, Congratulations Graham, and all the
very best to you and your family.


Peter Sutton

TD
KaurusR Limited
 
Ph: +44 (0)1992 460 591
Fax: +44 (0)1992 445 381
Mob: +44 (0) 7779 242 790
Email: peter at kaurus.com
Web: www.kaurus.com
Skype: petertk1
 


====



Hello Everyone,
                       I would like to tell the whole world that at
10:22 on thursday morning Alessandro John Martin Collett became the
newest member of the Collett family weighing in at 3kg. Mother and baby
are both fine.

Graham Collett
Visible Sprockets Ltd
www.visible-sprockets.co.uk
Sprockets(telecine) Ltd
www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk


_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3





From vinny at cineworks.com  Fri May 29 14:16:38 2009
From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:16:38 -0400
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
References: <mailman.1235.1243451862.28133.tig@colorist.org><78EBA570-38CD-4F60-8B62-48903659B3F0@me.com><Pine.SOC.4.64.0905271738540.1107@freddy.simplesystems.org><9D387D92-FCD6-4DDF-BED9-22EF6440E34E@me.com>
	<312356B5-E009-4521-9F92-9C971A1F9EFA@me.com>
Message-ID: <D7C4A80DB6B6D347977B1F936558CF60621850@PDC.cineworks.com>

I think the fact that in the case of U.S. TV studios it's all about
control. Shoot digital, control post, eventually, very soon in house,
cut out most all outside vendors. Color correct with freelancers on
editing systems most likely. Shoot film and you have to send the
original material to a lab/post facility. It has nothing to do with
quality or what a DP would like to do, it's "good enough". If someone
came out with an automatic software based "Colorist" they would go that
way, same with getting rid of DP's. Isn't progress grand? Be careful
what you wish for:-)



Vincent Hogan
President
Cineworks Digital Studios, Inc.-Miami & New Orleans
www.cineworks.com
http://www.imdb.com/company/co0189980/
 
   





From vinny at cineworks.com  Fri May 29 14:25:29 2009
From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:25:29 -0400
Subject: [Tig] Digital
References: <mailman.1243.1243465865.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<f211a4d110947.4a1db46a@mail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <D7C4A80DB6B6D347977B1F936558CF60621851@PDC.cineworks.com>

I see it as a total bias against film in the last two years in the
industry in the U.S., film manufacturers have been attacked by certain
digital camera company owners, it's obvious that this certain owner has
a real problem with film and all it encompasses, not really sure why.

I have worked in the business for the last 32 years, so I am biased
toward film but the major part of my business has been working in the
digital realm for the last 10 years, film being the origination source
and frankly it's still superior as an origination format in feature
films and some TV situations. The problem we have in the U.S. now is
DP's being bullied into not saying anything negative about a digital
capture camera, they will be called dinosaurs, they cannot adapt etc...
Their legs have been cut off by producers, it's a shame. 

 

Vincent Hogan
President
Cineworks Digital Studios, Inc.-Miami, New Orleans
www.cineworks.com
http://www.imdb.com/company/co0189980/
 
   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Towers [mailto:lawrence.towers at nyu.edu] 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:45 PM
> To: tig at colorist.org
> Subject: Re: [Tig] Digital
> 
> I am growing tired of the bias against digital. Especially 
> since most of the aesthetic problems occur in the analog 
> domain: the sensors or in AD conversion. Sensor tech is 
> changing fast. A to D is an art. Eventually someone will get 
> it cost effectively right and everyone else will follow.
> 
> ---Larry Towers
> TSOA Film/TV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri May 29 17:04:01 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 17:04:01 +0100
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <1ADA8E45-FD50-4311-9C37-CE289C4E1712@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
	<1ADA8E45-FD50-4311-9C37-CE289C4E1712@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0374C29C-0BF3-46F2-BC3F-42B393193029@autotv.co.uk>

On 29 May 2009, at 14:22, Anders Uhl wrote:
>
>
> On May 29, 2009, at 5:19, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
>> Film is in ALL WAYS SUPERIOR? Film has a wider dynamic range and  
>> not much else.
>
> Resolution, color depth, creative flexibility, consistency,  
> archiveability, format flexibility (because it is human readable it  
> can be transferred to any format), natural motion handling.  "Not  
> much else"?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> anders
>


Resolution is debateable; colour depth essentially dynamic range;  
creative flexibility could mean anything; consistency laughable;  
archiveability in theory is better with digital but in practice  
probably better with film; format flexibility again could mean  
anything. As for "natural motion handling" - huh?
--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--






From peter at kaurus.com  Fri May 29 17:07:10 2009
From: peter at kaurus.com (Peter Sutton)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 17:07:10 +0100
Subject: [Tig] HDMI 1.4
In-Reply-To: <F679FEB35C044993B21EB51B9A8617CB@Sprocket>
Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA6fNEjWGbCEKIC5YzUNrP5cKAAAAQAAAAGoL28eBIO0elPd/MWd51AQEAAAAA@kaurus.com>


For those interested in information on the progression of HDMI a segment of
forthcoming specs for the new HDMI 1.4 can be found at the following page on
our site.
There are remarks on 2K, 4K and 3D which some may find interesting

http://www.kaurus.com/hdmi%20news.html


Cheers
Peter Sutton
TD
KaurusR Limited
 
Ph: +44 (0)1992 460 591
Fax: +44 (0)1992 445 381
Mob: +44 (0) 7779 242 790
Email: peter at kaurus.com
Web: www.kaurus.com
Skype: petertk1






From stretchroc at gmail.com  Fri May 29 19:15:14 2009
From: stretchroc at gmail.com (Anders Uhl)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:15:14 -0400
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <0374C29C-0BF3-46F2-BC3F-42B393193029@autotv.co.uk>
References: <mailman.1231.1243442679.28133.tig@colorist.org>	<9EED6CD8-B3BC-4507-BB3F-972D749D4DEE@me.com>
	<7ADC2CF4-A689-4C43-B135-2DD759842A9D@comcast.net>
	<4A1E7F06.9090005@bosti.nl>
	<66606B9B-06D2-4FF7-9837-E581FE4E47BB@autotv.co.uk>
	<1ADA8E45-FD50-4311-9C37-CE289C4E1712@gmail.com>
	<0374C29C-0BF3-46F2-BC3F-42B393193029@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <30BFCECC-7805-4ACA-9F72-4F4B043965CC@gmail.com>


On May 29, 2009, at 12:04, Adrian Thomas wrote:

> Resolution is debateable;

Please, debate, I have never heard anyone say that video has better  
resolution.

> colour depth essentially dynamic range;

Yes and no but all factors regarding dynamic range are hugely  
significant.

> creative flexibility could mean anything;

There are many more creative things I can do with film.  I can push,  
pull, put it in the oven, under and over expose to creative ends  
(riding the curve), bleach bypass to varying degrees, process in my  
bathtub, transfer from a print, do multi pass transfers, etc.   
Digital/Video - can't do any of those things.

> consistency laughable;

What's so funny about that?  Modern film stock are extremely reliable  
and consistent.  Not so with most real world video cameras, monitors,  
etc. - I know it's getting better, but I'm much more nervous shooting  
digital than any film I've ever shot.

> archiveability in theory is better with digital but in practice  
> probably better with film; format flexibility again could mean  
> anything.

Format flexibility means that it can be transfered (well) to any format.

> As for "natural motion handling" - huh?

Video handles motion poorly.  Mechanical shutters help but very few  
video cameras have them.  Even the best digital cameras are often  
given away by the false look of motion.  Dalsa and Arri digital  
cameras have a very different look due to the real shutter.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm really surprised to hear  
what you are saying.  It's a perspective that I haven't seen in a  
professional forum.  I hope others chime in as well.

Best Regards,

anders

++++++++++++++++
anders uhl
director cameraman
new york





From rob at colorist.org  Fri May 29 19:15:53 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 21:15:53 +0300
Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Are you the colorist tig moderator?
References: <E27B4F7881E68443B094B5F5C7DCD0D30399E6909E@LAX-EXCH04.spimageworks.com>
Message-ID: <4C4CAE7B-572F-4693-B715-758B3B4B4BC4@colorist.org>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Joseph Slomka <jslomka at imageworks.com>
> Date: May 29, 2009 9:01:34 PM GMT+03:00
> To: 'Rob Lingelbach' <rob at colorist.org>
> Subject: RE: Are you the colorist tig moderator?
>
>
> Rob,
> It looks like the message I sent was poorly  formatted.
>
>
>
> Bob,
> You asked.
> "What percentage of  Film vs. DATA are you working on lately?"
> Without actually counting the number of frames I'd hazard a guess of  
> 60% data vs. 40% film.
> While not a DI facility the amount of data we have been getting here  
> has steadily been increasing. It seems that DP's are getting more  
> comfortable using the digital cameras. The workflow is pretty  
> amazing, no need for dailies, material can be pre-graded on set for  
> a particular look and go to the DI facility in days.
>
> My questions to the community are:
> How many projects are now targeting Digital Cinema as the primary  
> deliverable?
> Have people been grading mixed media, film based acquisition along  
> with pure digital,in the same timeline?
> What have the primary strategies been for handling that media?
>
> Joseph Slomka
> Color Scientist
> Sony Pictures Imageworks
>
> """
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 08:55:59 -0700
> From: Bob Festa <bobfesta at mac.com>
> To: Craig Leffel <craig at optimus.com>
> Cc: Telecine Internet Group <tig at tig.colorist.org>
> Subject: [Tig] film vs other
> Message-ID: <9616A0A3-1ACA-4806-826F-9B4C06C2D07F at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On May 27, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Craig Leffel wrote:
> > Scannity looks amazing. If I thought Film was going to last, I might
> > buy one.
> Now there's a great topic.
> What percentage of Film vs. DATA are you working on lately?
> In the LA Commercial market, I see about 60% film and 40% other.
> The other category comprises all of my delivery headaches.
> Sizes, formats, codecs, wow.
> Best,
> Bob
> ___________________________________
> Bob Festa newhat.tv
> 1819 Colorado
> Santa Monica 310 401-2220
> California, 90293
> """
>
> From: Rob Lingelbach [mailto:rob at colorist.org]
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:57 AM
> To: Joseph Slomka
> Subject: Re: Are you the colorist tig moderator?
>
> Hi Joseph, I'm the founder and administrator.  I haven't seen any  
> posts come in from you that were bounced, in fact haven't bounced  
> anything in months.  how can I help?   send it again?
>
> I can comb through the logs if it doesn't show up at the group, but  
> I'm about to go on a long trip tomorrow night and won't be on the  
> net again until Monday night from the other side of the world.
>
> best regards
> Rob
>
>

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From bill at asylumfx.com  Fri May 29 21:20:53 2009
From: bill at asylumfx.com (bill laverty)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:20:53 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
Message-ID: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>

On Fri, 2009-05-29 at 09:22 -0400, Anders Uhl wrote:

Resolution, color depth, creative flexibility, consistency,  
archive-ability, format flexibility (because it is human readable it  
can be transferred to any format), natural motion handling.  "Not  
much else"?

Resolution: Most of the sharpness issues experienced with digital
origination are the same we have had with film origination, as in when
it's improperly done. Generally speaking the digital images have
actually been sharper! Of course if you use lesser equipment or talent
in either format...

Color Depth: Film has the edge for now but...

Creative Flexibility: I almost don't want to touch this one and get into
that: taste great, less filling debate. I'll only say that I have seen
excellence and excrement in both formats. Add to that, most creative
changes on film get baked in. Digital provides an undo buffer. There
would appear to be a lot more flexibility in getting to change your mind
and try something different. Also in my experience, advances in software
are far more frequent than those in chemistry and optics.

Consistency: When properly done, both formats are consistent. Although I
have never had the lab screw up my files or scratching my data. Also
having read comments like, film is more wysiwyg than digital, leads me
to believe that passion rather than facts are shaping a great many of
these arguments.

Archive-ability: Take a look at the S3 type data clouds available.
Archiving to digital has distinct advantages and it's becoming a
commodity. Film is analog and a copy is exactly that, a copy. As such
it's always going to be a generation down. Who cares how the ones and
zeros are stored, leave that to a "service provider".

Format Flexibility: I never thought of OCN as being human readable. It
always has to be transferred to another medium. For now the argument
that film is "future proof" still holds water but, technical progress
marches on.

Natural Motion Handling: Is the argument that 24 fps motion artifacts
are a good thing going to be made?

Both methods of acquisition have their place. To say that one is always
better than the other is simply a poor argument. It is rare in life when
one side is completely right and the other side completely wrong. It
feels as if in a great many of these discussions, we always seem to
compare the best technical and artistic practices of film against the
worst of digital. We had better get use to digital acquisition however,
as I fear film's dominance may well be a thing of the past. Lets just
hope we learn to take the best from both worlds and continue to make
better product. I for one am getting a little tired of the adage, how
bad is good enough.

-Bill

Bill Laverty
Chief Engineer
Asylum Visual Effects

-Established ideas and conventions fight off new ideas and methods which
eventually become established ideas and conventions.







From bob at bluescreen.com  Fri May 29 22:14:57 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:14:57 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Digital
In-Reply-To: <D7C4A80DB6B6D347977B1F936558CF60621851@PDC.cineworks.com>
References: <mailman.1243.1243465865.28133.tig@colorist.org>
	<f211a4d110947.4a1db46a@mail.nyu.edu>
	<D7C4A80DB6B6D347977B1F936558CF60621851@PDC.cineworks.com>
Message-ID: <fij0251hgctebr2asp34r2qeoqf4b8d4c7@4ax.com>

>I see it as a total bias against film in the last two years in the
>industry in the U.S., film manufacturers have been attacked by certain
>digital camera company owners, it's obvious that this certain owner has
>a real problem with film and all it encompasses, not really sure why.

I can't speak for him, but I can tell you why I have a real problem with the
major film manufacturer: thirty years of slash-and burn, leave-no-survivors
marketing. 

I find both their advertising and attitude at trade shows to be (and I'm being
generous here) obnoxious when referring to digital acquisition (and before
that, analog video).

Of course, the digital camera manufacturers aren't much better, but they
haven't had 35 years to perfect their message, either. I'm sure they can be a
LOT more obnoxious than they've been if they tried harder.

The big film manufacturer rightly sees this as a fight to the death which, in
my opinion, they are eventually going to lose except for a small niche market
which, in the end, they will not find sufficiently profitable to continue.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com




From rob at colorist.org  Fri May 29 22:50:38 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:50:38 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
Message-ID: <2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>

Hi Bill, a few points to my well-respected former colleague from  
Planet Blue.

> Both methods of acquisition have their place. To say that one is  
> always
> better than the other is simply a poor argument.

agreed.

> It is rare in life when
> one side is completely right and the other side completely wrong. It
> feels as if in a great many of these discussions, we always seem to
> compare the best technical and artistic practices of film against the
> worst of digital. We had better get use to digital acquisition  
> however,
> as I fear film's dominance may well be a thing of the past. Lets just
> hope we learn to take the best from both worlds and continue to make
> better product. I for one am getting a little tired of the adage, how
> bad is good enough.

a simile worth its salt.   Or a saltine worth its smile.

Personally I must say that it gets tiring having an argument such as  
this (film vs.
digital) become a dichotomy.  It's not; this becomes like the  
reductionism of
Rebublican vs. Democrat: a dichotomy or, better, a reductionism that  
renders all
its arguers simple.  How can politics or any complex subject be  
rendered 2-dimensional;
an insult to our intelligence in polarizing all issues on one side or  
another.

film is film, digital is ... well it's either a digital representation  
of film, or it's a digital
capture rendered to whatever someone thinks represents film, ad  
hominem.   though,
as an exception, there are those who eject film altogether.  I tend to  
put these people
in as radical a basket as those who reject film.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From rob at colorist.org  Fri May 29 22:54:36 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:54:36 +0300
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
	<2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <7BD4AEF1-7086-46CE-B796-B3980CB5CBB4@colorist.org>


On May 30, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> as an exception, there are those who eject film altogether.  I tend  
> to put these people
> in as radical a basket as those who reject film.

As a personal correction, I want to say that I agree with my cousin  
Anders Uhl, that I have not yet personally
seen anything, except perhaps the D21, approach film's range in all  
media, other than film.

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Fri May 29 23:06:14 2009
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:06:14 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
	<2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <43298eae0905291506rae0e0bg11cfdb479760ad61@mail.gmail.com>

Bill said,
"Both methods of acquisition have their place. To say that one is always
better than the other is simply a poor argument."


As always I agree with Bill.
A  show or spot  can  mix film and video.
It's not that hard to match them.
I would not shot 1 close up digital and the other on film. But you could.


 Film excels  when it involves slow mo on location. For explosions and
car crashes.
It's not always easy to schlep a phantom if the operator has not used it before.

Table top  photography for high speed- I think the Phantom is be great
because you can know you have it in the can on set.
Not so with film. Its we'll see it the next day.


And Directors like David Fincher with Vipers to S2 data. If he doesn't
like a take he deletes it.
Or he can roll for 30 minutes on a take.

Jeff Olm
also former Planet Blue guy



From rob at colorist.org  Fri May 29 23:11:59 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 01:11:59 +0300
Subject: [Tig] TimberWolf, Neon Orange
Message-ID: <C7F1817E-E38D-41BF-B162-70EC37767206@colorist.org>

Crayola Colors Crayons:

Asparagus
Tomic Tangerine
Timberwolf
Antique Brass
Gargoyle Gas
Sea Serpent

these are only a few adjective-weighted Crayola Crayon colors.  see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Crayola_crayon_colors  or the TIG  
Technical Discussions page at

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Technical_discussions

--   
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org



From stretchroc at gmail.com  Fri May 29 23:39:44 2009
From: stretchroc at gmail.com (Anders Uhl)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:39:44 -0400
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
Message-ID: <85A58CEB-C930-4386-A70B-B49672F8F854@gmail.com>


Hi Bill,

Great post.

> Resolution: Most of the sharpness issues experienced with digital
> origination are the same we have had with film origination, as in when
> it's improperly done. Generally speaking the digital images have
> actually been sharper! Of course if you use lesser equipment or talent
> in either format...

Can of worms!

Sharpness is not as you know equal to resolution, and it's a very  
important point.  That's why we can see a video image that is "too  
sharp" as in seeing the pores in skin in an extremely unflattering  
way that has lower resolution than a film stock that is seeing more  
information but in a much smoother way.

> Color Depth: Film has the edge for now but...

Well, "for now but.." isn't really an argument!  :)

> Creative Flexibility: I almost don't want to touch this one and get  
> into
> that: taste great, less filling debate.

I'm not trying to do that.  Not trying to make a versus argument  
either.  Anything I can do to video, I can do to digitized film but I  
don't have the same flexibility with video upfront.  It's not a  
"well, so you say" argument - that's just a fact unless someone can  
show me otherwise - and believe me, I know as much as anyone that  
film is on its way out and I would love to be proven wrong!

As to the undo buffer - don't get me started.  That's the express  
train to mediocrity.

> Consistency: When properly done, both formats are consistent.  
> Although I
> have never had the lab screw up my files or scratching my data. Also
> having read comments like, film is more wysiwyg than digital, leads me
> to believe that passion rather than facts are shaping a great many of
> these arguments.

I'm speaking from my own experience and there are a lot of  
mismatched, improperly calibrated and even unstable video cameras out  
there.  I don't have that problem with film.  I'm not saying that all  
digital is totally haywire and inconsistent - and it's sure gotten a  
lot better.  It wasn't that long ago that the holy grail for DP's was  
getting acceptable video dailies and many hoops were leap through to  
that end.  That wasn't so much an issue with film dailies.  Granted,  
that issue has been largely resolved, but the point is that digital/ 
video wysiwyg is often incredibly misleading.

Yes the lab or an AC can scratch or flash the film but I haven't had  
that problem in 15 years.

> Archive-ability: Take a look at the S3 type data clouds available.
> Archiving to digital has distinct advantages and it's becoming a
> commodity. Film is analog and a copy is exactly that, a copy. As such
> it's always going to be a generation down. Who cares how the ones and
> zeros are stored, leave that to a "service provider".

I'm not an archivist but I've read the reports :-)

> Format Flexibility: I never thought of OCN as being human readable.

But it is.

> It
> always has to be transferred to another medium.

Hold it up to a light.

> Natural Motion Handling: Is the argument that 24 fps motion artifacts
> are a good thing going to be made?

I'm not making that argument - I'm just saying that there is a "looks  
like video" aspect that is very unpleasant and it's greatly reduced,  
if not removed, by a physical shutter.

> Both methods of acquisition have their place. To say that one is  
> always
> better than the other is simply a poor argument.

I agree and was never saying that video didn't have its place, I was  
- very simply at the time - saying that film had many more advantages  
than just dynamic range, as was initially stated.

Thanks for the conversation,

anders

++++++++++++++++
anders uhl
director cameraman
new york





From bob at bluescreen.com  Sat May 30 02:47:01 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:47:01 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <43298eae0905291506rae0e0bg11cfdb479760ad61@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
	<2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
	<43298eae0905291506rae0e0bg11cfdb479760ad61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b13125l805mlvpe4iafdbuh80q1lbaen7i@4ax.com>

> Film excels  when it involves slow mo on location. For explosions and car crashes.
>It's not always easy to schlep a phantom if the operator has not used it before.

I must disagree with this. For one thing, I don't know of any rental house
which will send out a Phantom without a qualified tech. Just too many things
can go wrong. So unless there's some owner/operator out there foolishly
sending out a camera without anyone, there is little chance the operator will
be on his or her own.

In a more general sense, the one area where film is well and truly dead, dead,
dead is in high speed photography.

Yes, you all heard me. Dead. The Phantom has driven a wooden stake through
film's high speed heart.

Let me say that I am not a huge fan of the Phantom's colorimetry, and I'm
still waiting to see really nice fleshtones from it. But in terms of being
wildly practical in its usage, and being able to be SURE you have that
momentary shot you need, it's the tool to use. What it does, it does
splendidly.

Yes, there will be a few diehards still shooting with Photosonics for another
year or two, and some big-time name DP's will still have the clout to call for
one, but the product is, overall, well beyond its "sell by" date.

And when I say "high speed", I'm not talking about overcranking to 120 on a
435. That's not high speed. High speed is, you know, 400 fps and up; to, say,
4000 fps if you've got the light.

Oh, and I love the title of this thread: "other", the format that dare not
speak its name.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com




From craig at optimus.com  Sat May 30 01:11:03 2009
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:11:03 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Are you the colorist tig moderator?
In-Reply-To: <4C4CAE7B-572F-4693-B715-758B3B4B4BC4@colorist.org>
References: <E27B4F7881E68443B094B5F5C7DCD0D30399E6909E@LAX-EXCH04.spimageworks.com>
	<4C4CAE7B-572F-4693-B715-758B3B4B4BC4@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <4A207997.8070402@optimus.com>


I've done quite a few projects lately where we've had Phantom, Red and 
35mm Film in the same timeline. Most often it's Phantom and Film, 
sometimes Red and film. I've found that setting a similar white point in 
all the digital footage helps quite a bit in this case. We then render 
everything out as Log and bring it into a Baselight timeline that's been 
formatted as Video. We end up with quite a bit of range with Log, and 
since it's a WYSIWYG setup, everyone can see how things line up.

I wouldn't call it easy, but for TV, we're making it work without too 
much headache. I don't do any direct to Digital Cinema work where we 
explicitly color correct for that display space.

CL




>> "What percentage of  Film vs. DATA are you working on lately?"
>>
>> My questions to the community are:
>> How many projects are now targeting Digital Cinema as the primary 
>> deliverable?
>> Have people been grading mixed media, film based acquisition along 
>> with pure digital,in the same timeline?
>> What have the primary strategies been for handling that media?
>>
>> Joseph Slomka
>> Color Scientist
>> Sony Pictures Imageworks




From bob at bluescreen.com  Sat May 30 21:18:27 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 13:18:27 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <43298eae0905301221s7e61a738uc9f281d09ba15e57@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
	<2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
	<43298eae0905291506rae0e0bg11cfdb479760ad61@mail.gmail.com>
	<b13125l805mlvpe4iafdbuh80q1lbaen7i@4ax.com>
	<43298eae0905301221s7e61a738uc9f281d09ba15e57@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7o432597c73lum690r5rfqf5o6rk65mesf@4ax.com>

>Some of my Phantom post experience was high speed for pyro.
>On a jury rigged stereo config.
>I had to manually sync the left right footage.

Well, yes. Genlocking Phantoms for 3D work is not a simple task, and without
that, you get what you got.

But there's a reason for that, and it's the same reason that a lot of stuff
needs to be cleaned up after the fact: productions won't hire the competent
technical professionals required to make sure things go right. 

Some of the time, it's because they don't know any better. Most of the time,
the reason is financial: even when they're told of potential problems, they'd
much rather foist it off on the post producer so it impacts that budget and
not production's. The rest of the time...

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com




From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Sat May 30 20:21:46 2009
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:21:46 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <b13125l805mlvpe4iafdbuh80q1lbaen7i@4ax.com>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
	<2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
	<43298eae0905291506rae0e0bg11cfdb479760ad61@mail.gmail.com>
	<b13125l805mlvpe4iafdbuh80q1lbaen7i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <43298eae0905301221s7e61a738uc9f281d09ba15e57@mail.gmail.com>

Bob said,
"Yes, you all heard me. Dead. The Phantom has driven a wooden stake through
film's high speed heart."


Well there you go.

I wasn't thinking that high speed I guess.

Some of my Phantom post experience was high speed for pyro.
On a jury rigged stereo config.
I had to manually sync the left right footage.
It was all for stereo fire reference. Not for use in a film.
I only observed the shoot and had to clean it all up in post in Nuke
and on a Lustre.
I later used Speed Grade which handles the Phantom files right in the app.

Another experience was Viper off speed to SRW-1.
That was a post pain. But not impossible. That was on Scratch.

On another show that wanted off-speed not necessarily  high speed shots.
Rented a film camera for the week and shot all their off-speed stuff.
And could then use it for second unit all over NY.

So did Michael Bay Transformers or Star Trek or the other summer films
use Phantoms  for their explosions pyro and crashes?

Jeff Olm
LA, CA



From rob at colorist.org  Sun May 31 07:19:41 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:19:41 +0300
Subject: [Tig] pardon the interruption
Message-ID: <F4172F1E-240D-4007-A2DA-282C02A642C0@colorist.org>

The TIG will be undergoing maintenance during the next 48 hours, until  
roughly 0100 UTC Tuesday May 2.
Postings will not be lost, just held until about that time, thank you  
for your patience.

Rob
--   
Rob Lingelbach      TIG admin/founder
rob at colorist.org



From jeff.olm at gmail.com  Sun May 31 17:18:10 2009
From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:18:10 -0700
Subject: [Tig] film vs other
In-Reply-To: <7o432597c73lum690r5rfqf5o6rk65mesf@4ax.com>
References: <1243628453.21070.220.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com>
	<2B5AE1A8-6B5D-48CC-A9FA-27B3037FCA38@colorist.org>
	<43298eae0905291506rae0e0bg11cfdb479760ad61@mail.gmail.com>
	<b13125l805mlvpe4iafdbuh80q1lbaen7i@4ax.com>
	<43298eae0905301221s7e61a738uc9f281d09ba15e57@mail.gmail.com>
	<7o432597c73lum690r5rfqf5o6rk65mesf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <43298eae0905310918x6d6026bek6736eb4e993cb5bc@mail.gmail.com>

Bob said
"Well, yes. Genlocking Phantoms for 3D work is not a simple task,"


Jeff O replied,
On the same stereo note,
Genlocking stereo RED's or every stereo camera setup is very important.
Lucky for a production. That wasn't a reference shoot
I had seen it before and there was soooo much shutter discussion I
knew the problem when I saw it.
PACE always takes care of it because they have shot so much stereo.
You send the note back to production make them fix it because you
can't fix it in post.
I can't stress the importance of screening stereo. as you shot.
Screen it everyday.
And now you can edit in stereo.
http://www.avid.com/company/releases/2009/090302_native-XDCAM-support-and-stereoscopic-3d.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS114253+07-Apr-2009+MW20090407
Make sure the cut pacing works for the amount of stereo.

Jeff Olm
Stereo FX and Color
LA, CA



From jfmann at optimum.net  Sun May 31 12:50:19 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 07:50:19 -0400
Subject: [Tig] TimberWolf, Neon Orange
In-Reply-To: <C7F1817E-E38D-41BF-B162-70EC37767206@colorist.org>
References: <C7F1817E-E38D-41BF-B162-70EC37767206@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <001701c9e1e5$f8d15ac0$ea741040$@net>

I picked this bit off the Crayola timeline. I just found it amusing that Mr. Moser concealed his color blindness for so long. .

1990: Eight Crayola crayon colors– Maize, Raw Umber, Lemon Yellow, Blue Gray, Orange Yellow, Orange Red, Green Blue and Violet Blue– are retired into the Crayola Hall of Fame in Easton, Pennsylvania. Emerson Moser, then Crayola's most senior crayon moulder, also retired after 37 years. After moulding approximately 1.4 billion crayons, he revealed that he is actually color blind.


Jim Mann
Colorist/Product Specialist 
C 516-250-0909
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.