From alanr at bhphoto.com Mon Jun 1 16:00:46 2009 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 11:00:46 -0400 Subject: [Tig] New Collett In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D6B1061@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Congratulations!!! Alan Rosenfeld The Studio at B&H From jean-c at moving-picture.com Mon Jun 1 17:53:26 2009 From: jean-c at moving-picture.com (Jean-Clement Soret) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:53:26 +0100 Subject: [Tig] film vs other In-Reply-To: <43298eae0905301221s7e61a738uc9f281d09ba15e57@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Hi there, I worked on a Lux shampoo commercial recently that considered Phantom because they liked to be able to see what they just shot but it was ruled out because the camera was unable to capture correctly the paparazzis flashes, so it was shot on good old 35mm. Here in MPC London we see about 80% film 20% video, I must say the choice of video is always driven by budget reasons and is mostly to do with retail ads, internet virals etc. I get surprised occasionally at the quality you can get from digitally acquired material compared to what you could get a few years ago and even sometimes compared to film, but aside from the lack of dynamic range we all know about, digital images don't like being manipulated. Digital is just not forgiving at all, it just makes our colourist job more difficult, and I'm lucky to be able to hang onto my 32" CRT. I don't mind as I have learned over the years to have to do with what I am given and even on film I don't get amazing stuff everyday, but what really bugs me is that occasionally some clients have just been pushed to shoot digital after being mislead somehow and end up hugely disappointed when they realise their material will never look like film. I get to talk to DPs during grading sessions and even though a lot of them are interested or have embraced digital, when given the choice it's film anytime. A client of ours considered switching to digital a few months ago, they shot the same commercial 35mm and Red, we managed to match the Red to the film almost perfectly (except the highlights), easy when you know what to look for, not garanteed if you have nothing to match to, the client decided to stick with film because it was a faster turn around and the cost saving of going digital was only 8%. Re-shoot used to be a rarity, in 20 years of grading I could count them on one hand, I'm now at 3 for the first 5 months of the year, all digital. Jean-Clement Soret Colourist Head of Colorgrading MPC From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Jun 2 01:35:30 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:35:30 -0700 Subject: [Tig] film vs other In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <43298eae0905301221s7e61a738uc9f281d09ba15e57@mail.gmail.com> <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: >I get surprised occasionally at >the quality you can get from digitally acquired material compared to >what you could get a few years ago and even sometimes compared to film, >but aside from the lack of dynamic range we all know about, digital >images don't like being manipulated. Digital is just not forgiving at >all, it just makes our colourist job more difficult So is manipulating digital footage inherently more difficult because of its comparatively limited dynamic range and colorspace and how fast it "hits the wall" top and bottom relative to negative? Is it just as difficult when a "cinegamma" curve is used with no matrix of any sort? If so, is it more difficult because existing high-end tools were designed with the characteristic response curves of film in mind? Does anyone think a rethinking and redesign of the high-end corrector algorithms would improve the amount of control colorists have over digital images? --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Jun 2 12:30:20 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:30:20 +0300 Subject: [Tig] film vs other In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: <6441A700-AA77-4CF3-B15C-15B1668C41C6@colorist.org> I have very similar thoughts to yours Jean-Clement. I think it's important not to polarize the discussion and take too literally the title of this thread. There's a philosophical maxim that states something like: 'given a group with many opinions, a sieve-like effect will tend eventually to bifurcate the ideas into just two camps.' This effect is also the result when there isn't enough time for reasoned, thoughtful discussion among smart people. > Hi there, > I worked on a Lux shampoo commercial recently that considered Phantom > because they liked to be able to see what they just shot but it was -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From larslundeberg at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 10:04:01 2009 From: larslundeberg at hotmail.com (Lars Lundeberg) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:04:01 +0200 Subject: [Tig] film vs other In-Reply-To: <6441A700-AA77-4CF3-B15C-15B1668C41C6@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <6441A700-AA77-4CF3-B15C-15B1668C41C6@colorist.org> Message-ID: Adrian Thomas wrote: "I still remember the first time I saw a documentary interior shot (available light only) from a DigiBeta camcorder rather than the then typical Arri 16SR / URSA combination. I was amazed by the sensitivity of the camera, the immediacy and realism of the images." Reply: In my head; Film is better for fiction, "other" is better for here&now. But is that conditioned response from years of watching or something inherent in film? The best technical device for showing reality is still a mirror. But a mirror doesn´t help us see dreams, hopes, fears,... And see the things in life that are behind reality. Thoughts we picture in our heads. Film can picture that. Fiction already manipulates lighting, makeup, clothing, props, color grading,... so which media is more like a mirror isn´t the question. Film gives drama credibility, on "other" it looks cheap, like bad acting. "Other" gives a better sense of being where the camera was, like a surveillance cam. A true documentary on film is like a filter hindering a clear view. Here; "other" is much better. So why fight over which has better picture fidelity? Black&white gives a better sense of somebody´s inside. Maybe because the colors dosen´t get in the way of showing wrinkles, facial expressions and body language? So, do you want to imitate a mirror or picture a thought? Regards Lars Lundeberg Sweden _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out! http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 3 18:55:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:55:25 +0300 Subject: [Tig] film vs other In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65955@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <6441A700-AA77-4CF3-B15C-15B1668C41C6@colorist.org> Message-ID: <564F824C-32A6-4393-B0C3-6AA0EB0C6668@colorist.org> On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Lars Lundeberg wrote: > The best technical device for showing reality is still a mirror. but you lose how much, a stop or half a stop in a mirror? so it can never be absolute reality, I imagine. And to take it further, reality is very subjective, as a couple of thousand years of philosophy have shown. So it depends who is looking in the mirror.. Along with Edmund Scientific Co. catalogs, some of my favorite childhood haunts were the barber shop (the infinite curving tunnel of mirrors in visual feedback) and the House of Mirrors at the traveling circus. Theory: if you had a light meter and entered the house of mirrors, could you navigate it perfectly based on that half-stop loss measurement, the first time, never wavering in your path? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 3 19:12:36 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:12:36 +0300 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Message-ID: A friend of mine is asking me if he needs to be more careful than usual in doing a nitrate transfer on a Spirit tomorrow. Since I've only done them on Cintel machines, where there's no hot lamp, I thought I throw the question out to the group. I suppose you need to make sure the shutter in front of the lamp is working on your Spirit, and then take the usual precautions (don't hold a match to the film; be sure it's not gassing from the can, etc.). thanks. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adelle at laserpacific.com Wed Jun 3 19:19:45 2009 From: adelle at laserpacific.com (Andy Delle) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:19:45 -0700 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Message-ID: We are doing a job this week on a Spirit 1. Who is your friend? Anyway we kicked this around along with people from Kodak and the consensus was it's OK. The film however was pre inspected by ProTek so it comes to us in good shape. We did have some instances of film damage on Spirit 2's due to the higher lamp output so I would not put nitrate on a Spirit 2. Andy Delle Laser Pacific Media Corporation From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Jun 3 19:37:59 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:37:59 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Reposting--Fwd: Shrunken 35mm nitrate to HD-Spirit loses frame References: <000001c92a8c$a3bfbdd0$eb3f3970$@net> Message-ID: <5443299A-2157-444D-99AF-BF8DFD0E322B@tedlangdell.com> Hi, Rob, Perhaps this is of help, along with the other helpful suggestions, experiences and comments that resulted from this thread last fall. Ted Begin forwarded message: > From: Jim Mann > Date: October 9, 2008 8:59:48 PM PDT > To: 'Ted Langdell' , 'Telecine Internet Group' > > Subject: RE: [Tig] Shrunken 35mm nitrate to HD-Spirit loses frame > > Ted, > If it is a "Classic Spirit" and assuming that your material has not > progressed passed stage II decomposition. (All nitrate film is now > at least Stage II.) I do not think you will blow up. The flash point > of a stage II nitrate film is about that of a piece of paper. As Mr. > Lovejoy said do not put Nitrate on a new Spirit HD, Spirit2K or 4K. > I have transferred Nitrate on a Spirit classic....I do not recommend > it. The film sheds dust that gets into the condenser lens and filter > wheel resulting in a machine that can get so covered, it will not > FPN. It also results in a pissed off engineer, who has to clean up > the mess. > > The Stages of Nitrate film (as per me and the NPS) > > Stage II Amber color, Nitric acid smell, Negative may be a little > sticky. Base gets brittle. Emulsion gets soft. > Stage III Amber color is deeper, Nitric gas bubbles form between the > base and emulsion, The stink gets stronger. Film base is very brittle. > Stage IV Sticky froth, bubbles, film sticks to everything. Smells > like puke. Very strong puke. Let some of this stuff rub on to your > clothing then go through one of those bomb sniffing machines at the > airport...good luck. > Stage V....don't worry you'll just know. > > I can also tell you that shrinkage can vary within a roll. As you > get deeper into the roll horizontal shrinkage can increase, > resulting in the sprocket wheel just catching the inside of the > perfs and ripping the outer edges off the brittle film. Trust me I > know. Ted, I think you're lucky your jumping out of frame. It means > the film has not become too brittle. > > The Spirit has a gentle film transport but....you would need custom > sprocket wheel to run your film. > > "Well, pretty damned shrunken. " > > The AMIA offers a gauge to assess the percentage of shrinkage. At > http://www.amianet.org/resources/guides/shrinkage_gauge.pdf > > Or for a rough idea use a normal 35mm leader and count 100 perfs and > mark it with a sharpie. Then line it up with your film. If at Perf > 100 your film is a 98 perfs then your 2%, 97 perfs then your 3% and > so on. > Good Luck > Jim > > > Jim Mann > Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist > [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK > 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor > New York, NY 10013 > T 212 894 4000 > C 516-250-0909 > F 212 941 0439 > http://www.postworks.com > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From Stn3 at aol.com Wed Jun 3 20:53:04 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:53:04 -0700 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been told by others that Nitrate is not recommended for use on a Spirit due to the hot light source. In the early days of spirit use, there were some problems with the light source burning or melting acetate base materials. A dousing filter was added, and I have not heard of the problem occurring in many years. Although the faceplate is fairly warm to the touch, I would say it does not reach anywhere near the flashpoint of Nitrate Materials. A clever operator with a remote wired temperature probe could determine the high-point temperature in the gate while running an acetate loop. I imagine there is some range (especially with a new lamp in place) that could be measured, and as long as the dousing filter operates properly, it could be determined if temperatures were safe enough for Nitrate base films in good condition. In the days of Nitrate Projection, Simplex Projectors fitted with carbon-arc light sources were used to present Nitrate Based films on a regular basis. These projectors were fitted with protection devices in the event film slowed or stopped in the gate, and later the use of water-cooled gates in the projector greatly reduced fire danger. Since I have spent time in the projection boot as well as the Telecine suite in my some 35 years of service, I can tell you that those Simplex Projectors ran much hotter than the gate in a Spirit Telecine. However, safety being the better part of valor, I would recommend that a cool CRT based Telecine would be a better choice for Nitrate materials if there is a choice available. Remember this Golden Rule: handle Nitrate Materials with a great deal of respect, and always AYOR..... Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:13 AM To: ***Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== A friend of mine is asking me if he needs to be more careful than usual in doing a nitrate transfer on a Spirit tomorrow. Since I've only done them on Cintel machines, where there's no hot lamp, I thought I throw the question out to the group. I suppose you need to make sure the shutter in front of the lamp is working on your Spirit, and then take the usual precautions (don't hold a match to the film; be sure it's not gassing from the can, etc.). thanks. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Wed Jun 3 20:33:58 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:33:58 -0700 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029F036A@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Transfer of Nitrate is not suggested or officially supported by DFT. It is "do so at your own risk". That being said, many customers are succesfully assuming this risk themselves without problems on various machines. But, again, DFT does not endorse this, so you are on your own. Best wishes, Craig Nichols DFT ----- Original Message ----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org To: ***Telecine Internet Group Sent: Wed Jun 03 11:12:36 2009 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== A friend of mine is asking me if he needs to be more careful than usual in doing a nitrate transfer on a Spirit tomorrow. Since I've only done them on Cintel machines, where there's no hot lamp, I thought I throw the question out to the group. I suppose you need to make sure the shutter in front of the lamp is working on your Spirit, and then take the usual precautions (don't hold a match to the film; be sure it's not gassing from the can, etc.). thanks. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 3 21:00:04 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:00:04 +0300 Subject: [Tig] posting notes Message-ID: <1C2B6CA8-E7DE-472D-9631-1E09EABED7CF@colorist.org> For many reasons we discourage posting anonymously to the TIG, in fact we tend to jump on postings that come in with no identification. The most obvious reason for this is that the poster could be misrepresenting him/herself and be 'loading' the group for some ulterior motive, and also because we like to know with whom we're corresponding. It's been this way almost since the beginning, when the group grew beyond a handful. There is and has been one exception to this, which is when someone can't post their affiliation for a reason beyond their control, and instead, asks me to do it, for example, due to the following: --they have been prohibited by a corporation or employer from identifying a posting to the tig --they have valid internal political reasons for not going public on the tig --a particular question may create a question of unfair competition, when it is actually innocuous there are other reasons, that I can't think of right now, but this is a community where some trust is assumed between subscriber and administrator, and I would hope that anyone whoever receives a posting that is not directly attributed to someone else, and that posting *comes from me*, that this is not an instance where the TIG is being taken advantage of, and I'm only trying to help someone in a jam, never at the expense of any other TIG subscribers. I would say this situation comes up about twice a year at maximum, with about 50,000 messages in the archives. It does still make me uneasy because the motives could be misconstrued, even though I know the motives and can vouch for the sincerity of the posting. Since such a micro-miniscule percentage of postings- .072 percent - causes me to have to assuage the feelings of at least one manufacturer in multiple soothing messages to counter their irascibility, which causes work that's uncompensated. I suppose the help in these specific .072 percent of cases that we're trying to give isn't worth it, and this flexibility will be reevaluated. Most of the TIG is run on an altruistic basis, as should be obvious, but we also work with manufacturers and vendors who help with contributions toward the running costs of the TIG. I'm starting to keep statistics on colorists who find positions through the TIG, on sellers and buyers who find what they're looking for on the classifieds; the numbers are a nice reminder there are many who get good use out of the group, besides the raw information and repartee. I'd like to thank all who have made contributions and remind everyone there's no question too simple, nor reason not to post, if your motives are sincere. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG founder/administrator since 1992 rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 4 00:20:24 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 02:20:24 +0300 Subject: [Tig] posting notes In-Reply-To: <1C2B6CA8-E7DE-472D-9631-1E09EABED7CF@colorist.org> References: <1C2B6CA8-E7DE-472D-9631-1E09EABED7CF@colorist.org> Message-ID: <55832084-06EE-4949-B367-614C8CA6B8AD@colorist.org> On Jun 3, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > There is and has been one exception to this, which is when someone > can't post their affiliation for a reason beyond their control, and > instead, > asks me to do it, for example, due to the following: > > --they have been prohibited by a corporation or employer from > identifying a posting to the tig > --they have valid internal political reasons for not going public on > the tig > --a particular question may create a question of unfair competition, > when it is actually innocuous Here is an exception-post (hereby coined such) that comes through me. It originates at the highest level and I vouch for it not having any ulterior motive, and nothing to do with marketing, only to help a client. The explanation-post of the exception-post process reminded the exception-poster of his need for the service, which, as defined, is done rarely, and only in the spirit of helpfulness. here's the question, which can be answered with an email to attarri at colorist.org : "I want to find out who has Aaton keylinks with aatoncode and arricode capability in LA." -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From turnto at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 4 01:54:56 2009 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <981579.54675.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Why don't you just tell your friend to go DI and use a scanner. Why take a chance? DK From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 4 03:11:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:11:35 -0300 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate In-Reply-To: <981579.54675.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <981579.54675.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <063652A4-F4F2-4BEB-879D-7E7564142564@colorist.org> On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:54 PM, David Keleshian wrote: > Why don't you just tell your friend to go DI and use a scanner. Why > take a chance? I'll mention that. We've said it here many times over the years, but again, if you've never seen nitrate film, it's worth going out of your way to see it transferred, it's a most beautiful black and white image, it always knocks me out. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cemoz101 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 11:03:37 2009 From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 03:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] New Ken Block video... Message-ID: <680011.15852.qm@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here's something for car/rally fans... the new Ken Block video. Some shots were shot on the Phantom HD, some Red and some on other HD Formats ... I rather enjoy the high-speed shots with the Phantom (Still not sure about some of the highlights but hey...) Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFDJzFIvCCQ (P.S Don't work for Vision Research, Red or any other vendor) Cheers! Cem Ozkilicci Freelance Colourist __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Thu Jun 4 08:00:41 2009 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:00:41 +0100 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate In-Reply-To: <063652A4-F4F2-4BEB-879D-7E7564142564@colorist.org> Message-ID: Ok, I'll bet scanners are much safer !!!! Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Thu Jun 4 12:43:58 2009 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:43:58 +0100 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate References: Message-ID: Out of interest, what are the lamps used in Spirits? I always thought they were the same as FDL's - 250w 24v... Pete ________________________________ From: tig-bounces at colorist.org on behalf of Graham Collett Sent: Thu 04-06-2009 08:00 To: 'Rob Lingelbach'; 'David Keleshian' Cc: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== Ok, I'll bet scanners are much safer !!!! Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:40:10 2009 From: Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk (Laurence Claydon) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:40:10 +0100 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 300 watt Xenon Arc for the SDC2000, 700 watt for the 4k. Most of the light/heat is lost in the optics, and I gather that there is little risk of the light in the gate causing combustion of the stock. If its going to catch fire, it will anyway. Laurence Claydon Deluxe Digital London. Disclaimer:- I have never transferred any Nitrate stock on a Telecine. I did put plenty of it through a projector when I was a student, however! -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of White Peter Mr (EAFA) Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:44 PM To: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== Out of interest, what are the lamps used in Spirits? I always thought they were the same as FDL's - 250w 24v... Pete ________________________________ From: tig-bounces at colorist.org on behalf of Graham Collett Sent: Thu 04-06-2009 08:00 To: 'Rob Lingelbach'; 'David Keleshian' Cc: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] spirit for nitrate Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== Ok, I'll bet scanners are much safer !!!! Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 4 16:31:48 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:31:48 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes (was: Re: spirit for nitrate) In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> On Jun 4, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Jean-Clement Soret wrote: > Oh yes, I started at Éclair lab in the late 80's and had the chance > to transfer technicolor prints, hand painted BW and all sorts of > strange things including nitrate...beautiful, simply beautiful. I was thinking, what image have I seen that most impressed me for rendition, resolution, depth. I used to use a 12x14 light box with cold cathode fluorescent lamp and milk glass above, to back light large kodachrome stills, some shot with very large cameras. To this day I've never again seen such beautiful images. I seem to recall there were systems for backlight projection, albeit at a much smaller gauge (probably 8 or 16mm) that did something similar for motion picture film, though of course the resolution and color was on a scale far below what I saw from large format stills. Could there ever be a personal rear-projection system for 35mm or 70mm that wouldn't be cost-prohibitive, and appeal to the image connoisseur? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jean-c at moving-picture.com Thu Jun 4 15:32:03 2009 From: jean-c at moving-picture.com (Jean-Clement Soret) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:32:03 +0100 Subject: [Tig] film vs other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65958@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Yes dynamic range is a real problem because of the linear response of CCDs or CMOS sensors, all camera manufacturers know that this is why the images look so dark when they are seen as raw files, underexposure seems to be the best way to minimise the damage in terms of keeping details in the highlights. The result is that most of the content of the image ends up in the 20% low end range of the signal where there is little or no chroma information, remember that old chroma black or desat black we used to death in the 90s? There you have it whether you like it or not. It gets particularly tricky when the client asks for rich dark colours.....To add to the pain, every manufacturer and digital lab have their own colour cubes that they apply to make images look acceptable, you end up with all sorts of weird gamma curves that are anything but linear and difficult to deconstruct to be able to start from fresh. I really feel for anyone who is starting in the colour correction business and trying to learn on their own. I end up sometimes cornered in a look I know I would not get if the images were not heavily processed by a third party. Fortunately the tools we have are far more sophisticated that when all we had was linear gamma, and I think we have all the necessary tool but it would be helpful to have on every digital shoot a color and contrast chart so we can understand what's going on exactly instead of guessing. Digital is the future no doubt about that, but either we invent a new capture device that has the log response of film or we combine several different exposures of the same image. JC Soret Head of Colour Grading MPC London From jean-c at moving-picture.com Thu Jun 4 15:54:40 2009 From: jean-c at moving-picture.com (Jean-Clement Soret) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:54:40 +0100 Subject: [Tig] spirit for nitrate In-Reply-To: <063652A4-F4F2-4BEB-879D-7E7564142564@colorist.org> Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Oh yes, I started at Éclair lab in the late 80's and had the chance to transfer technicolor prints, hand painted BW and all sorts of strange things including nitrate...beautiful, simply beautiful. JC Soret I'll mention that. We've said it here many times over the years, but again, if you've never seen nitrate film, it's worth going out of your way to see it transferred, it's a most beautiful black and white image, it always knocks me out. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Thu Jun 4 18:10:18 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson at compuserve.com) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:10:18 -0400 Subject: [Tig] film vs others In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBB34E78202B04-A44-15D6@angweb-usm001.sysops.aol.com> I still maintain that the Film Look has much to do with the almost infinitely variable grain sizes and random grain positions acting as the sensors. With each different grain size capturing a different light level; explained elsewhere on this forum. What I have seen recently and it really annoys me, is “Art Movies”, short self indulgent films allegedly very artistic, where the digital shoot has had some process added to try and emulate film grain. And they almost always get it wrong, loads of grain in the highlights, clean in the lowlights, quite the opposite to real film. We used to see NOISE in the highlights from old telecine transfers where the negative density requ ired great amounts of gain, but this is not grain, nor does it look like it!. Todays scanners should add nothing random. Real grain is predominant in lowlights and all but zero in highlights. Jean Clement raised the issue of digital acquisition mediums having all sorts of non linear transfer characteristics which are difficult to understand downstream at the colorists desk. For all the knocking of that ancient medium, film, and its suppliers they do at least provide transfer curves and colour capture characteristics that remain constant with each stock regardless of which camera they are shot in and assuming correct processing. Now back to taking pictures with my Pentax K100 DSLR !! =0 A Peter Swinson ________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your email address define you - Define yourself at http://www.tunome.com today! From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Jun 4 17:33:46 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:33:46 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand Central Station In-Reply-To: <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> Message-ID: <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I used to use a 12x14 light box with cold cathode fluorescent lamp > and milk glass above, to back light large kodachrome stills, some > shot with very large cameras. To this day I've never again seen > such beautiful images. You made me think of the Kodak Colorama that used to be in Grand Central Station in NYC. http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/features/coloramas/ Don't click if you have other things to do, as you'll be distracted for quite a while, especially if you go poking through the gallery and reading about the photos. Fortunately, I had a chance to see a Colorama in the summer of 1968. Obviously memorable, but I don't recall the photograph's content, and its not in the Colorama Gallery. The Colorama's demise is reported in the New York Times from Sunday, June 18, 1989, on section 10 page 8 of the New York edition. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/18/realestate/streetscapes-kodak-s-colorama-end-line-for-grand-central-s-big-picture.html Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 4 18:21:06 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:21:06 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand Central Station In-Reply-To: <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <276B0ECF-6D5D-4185-9F7D-AA1CCF6804DD@colorist.org> On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > You made me think of the Kodak Colorama that used to be in Grand > Central Station in NYC. oh yes, that was one of the largest advertisements of its time, and also one of the most beautiful. I remember the first one, and even my mom, a fierce defender of original architecture, was happy with it, in that holy grail of design, Grand Central. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From NJK at cbsnews.com Thu Jun 4 18:33:38 2009 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:33:38 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand CentralStation In-Reply-To: <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> > You made me think of the Kodak Colorama that used to be in > Grand Central Station in NYC. Not to be pedantic, but... When we used to shoot our correspondent standups in Grand Central, the accompanying PR-guy used to correct whomever was in earshot that it's NOT "Grand Central Station", but rather "Grand Central Terminal". He was very touchy about that. Grand Central station is the MTA Transit subway stop beneath the building. The distinction lies in the fact that a terminal refers to the end of the line, which GCT is for the Metro-North and Amtrak surface railroads, whereas a station infers travel in either direction through it, which the subway does at that point. :~) Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 4 18:43:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:43:34 -0300 Subject: [Tig] classifieds update Message-ID: <749F03E1-B057-4504-BC1E-2B96FCF5ED2A@colorist.org> New on the Classifieds at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds Shadow for sale 16/35mm gate Audio option NO HD with or without Pogle Platinum CC System Location Hamburg/Germany contact telecine at vcc.de [20090602p] Telecine Room for Sale Telecine C-Reality: Software - 56M S.N. - 8019 0722 5216 2426 Super 35mm Gate Super 16mm Gate CVIP - Colour Vector Image Processing Audio - Comag and Optical Waveform Monitor - Tektronix WFM 601E Valid maintenance contract until 30th June 2009 Upgradeable to 2k with 10.000€ board CRT Monitor: SONY Trinitron color video monitor 9": Model nº PVM-9044QM Color Corrector daVinci Renaissance 8:8:8 - daVinci User Interface for Renaissance 8:8:8 System ID: 1761978044 Revision : 4.3.4 daVinci Control Panel daVinci TLC Editing System with TFT Monitor Philips Brilliance 151AX 15" daVinci Renaissance Mainframe Silicon Graphics O2 Workstation with TFT Monitor Samsung SyncMaster 700 TFT 17" CRT Monitor: SONY Trinitron color Video Monitor 20": Model nº BVM-20G1E Waveform Monitor: Tektronix WFM 601A Tektronix 1735 Waveform monitor Tektronix 1741A Waveform/ Vector monitor Noise Reduction: Digital Vision DVNR - 1000 4X4 Image Processing Workstation Frame Store Abekas Diskus - Digital Disk Recorder CRT Monitor: SONY Trinitron color video monitor 9": Model nº PVM-9042QM Digital Switcher PSP Digital - PCS-2 Digital Switcher Timecode/Keycode Reader Aaton Keylink: Software Version - 10.36 Keylink Number - 1802 Available Options: 35mm/4p Keycode reading 16mm Keycode reading ADX CCIR 601 Handling Data TFT monitor: LG Flatron L1510M 15" Valid maintenance contract until 31st December 2009 All the equipment above is installed and working today. We are ready to sell it ex-works (transportation and removal from room at purchasers charge) for 100.000€ Ready to go at best offer! Portugal Telefone/Phone: +351 21 470 7530 e-mail: jose.rafael at decimagem.pt Telemóvel/Mobile phone: +351 91 998 6813 Web site: www.decimagem.pt [20090604p] 16mm gate for Arriscan needed Wanted: used 16mm gate for Arriscan, or one available for rent on a short term or Job-by-job basis. (Our Arriscan is just 2 years old) Alternatively, would there be a rental market if we were to purchase one and offer it to others on a Job-by-job basis? To be more descriptive with some background- We've had our Arriscan for a couple years now. From time to time we need to scan 16mm, and have fortunately been able to rent a 16mm gate from ARRI in those instances. As ARRI is not really in the business of directly renting modules for their machines, they have been magnanimous enough to do this out of their spares pool, given enough notice. But there's the rub- sometimes it can be quite awkward meeting our clients' schedules, and there of course is no guarantee that a gate will even be available when we need one. And it seems the percentage of our business in 16mm (vs 35) may be increasing somewhat. In the current fiscal climate it is difficult to justify the purchase of a new 16 gate for ourselves. I see a few courses of action to address this conundrum: 1) Find another source from which to rent a gate. 2) Locate and purchase a used 16 gate, if available, for significantly less than a new one from ARRI. 3) Purchase a new gate and when we are not using it, offer it for rent to other Arriscan owners that have this problem. Anyone out there that can address one of these options? Thanks Terry Lockhart Chief Engineer/IT manager Finish Editorial 162 Columbus Ave. Boston, Ma 02116-5222 -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From lists at neonmargarita.com Thu Jun 4 19:23:49 2009 From: lists at neonmargarita.com (Jeff Heusser) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:23:49 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand Central Station In-Reply-To: <276B0ECF-6D5D-4185-9F7D-AA1CCF6804DD@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> <276B0ECF-6D5D-4185-9F7D-AA1CCF6804DD@colorist.org> Message-ID: <9BB450C5-A93A-4355-BC98-88D7A32CE7D9@neonmargarita.com> Nat Geo ran a 2 hr documentary on Grand Central recently and talked quite a bit about that mural http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/insidegrandcentral/ The show was fascinating if you see it come around again. I worked in NY the year it came out and commuted through there daily... I remember it coming out. Jeff --- Jeff Heusser neonmargarita.com jeff at neonmargarita.com @neonmarg fxguide.com fxphd.com On Jun 4, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 > Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > >> You made me think of the Kodak Colorama that used to be in Grand >> Central Station in NYC. > > oh yes, that was one of the largest advertisements of its time, and > also one of the most beautiful. I remember the first one, and even > my mom, a fierce defender of original architecture, was happy with > it, in that holy grail of design, Grand Central. > > -- Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From carl at stopp.se Fri Jun 5 15:00:29 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:00:29 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Doing Onelights for Red Message-ID: Hi all is anyone doing "onelights" for Red material? I can't really see a market for doing that, you might aswell just use the QuickTime and the Look the DoP made... Is there anyone out there that say the opposite? Although I think that it might be a market for really High-End clients that Demand to have an offline with the correct look, preferably made by their favorite colorist. But for normal budget jobs, is it really worth it? I mean, with that extra cost you might aswell shoot film!? /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Fri Jun 5 10:29:35 2009 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:29:35 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in GrandCentralStation References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org><24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: ....A fact that children around the world have learnt through 'Madagascar'. I think. Being an adult, I don't think I rememberised it properly... Pete White -------------------- >it's NOT "Grand Central Station", but rather "Grand Central Terminal". Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Jun 5 08:52:54 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:52:54 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand CentralStation In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <0C75F779-317A-4DB4-A201-63653E6AB443@tedlangdell.com> Thanks for the distinction, Neal. Amazing the things one can learn here! It puts a whole new perspective on the old radio show, "Grand Central Station!" http://www.radiolovers.com/shows/G/GrandCentralStation/GrandCentralStation460824MoonBlind.mp3 There once was a "Grand Central Station": http://grandcentralterminal.com/info/grandcentralstation.cfm Here's who controls and owns it today: http://grandcentralterminal.com/info/restored.cfm And one can't forget GCT's connection to broadcasting, telecine and videotape... as CBS had studios and facilities there for a number of years in the "Golden Age" of television. That's not mentioned on the GCT history. Be interesting to hear more about what it took to get a broadcast on the air from there. Ted On Jun 4, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Kassner, Neal wrote: > > >> You made me think of the Kodak Colorama that used to be in >> Grand Central Station in NYC. > > Not to be pedantic, but... > > When we used to shoot our correspondent standups in Grand Central, the > accompanying PR-guy used to correct whomever was in earshot that it's > NOT "Grand Central Station", but rather "Grand Central Terminal". He > was > very touchy about that. Grand Central station is the MTA Transit > subway > stop beneath the building. The distinction lies in the fact that a > terminal refers to the end of the line, which GCT is for the Metro- > North > and Amtrak surface railroads, whereas a station infers travel in > either > direction through it, which the subway does at that point. :~) > > Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From NJK at cbsnews.com Fri Jun 5 15:36:06 2009 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in GrandCentralStation In-Reply-To: <0C75F779-317A-4DB4-A201-63653E6AB443@tedlangdell.com> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org><24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com><28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <0C75F779-317A-4DB4-A201-63653E6AB443@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266543@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> On Friday, June 05, 2009 3:53 AM, Ted Langdell wrote: >And one can't forget GCT's connection to broadcasting, telecine and videotape... as CBS had studios and facilities there >for a number of years in the "Golden Age" of television. >That's not mentioned on the GCT history. Be interesting to hear more about what it took to get a broadcast on the air from there. Yeah, I wish I knew more about that; sadly, pretty much all the people who worked there back in the day have moved on (in one way or another). >From what I can gather, CBS used the space above what's known as Vanderbilt Hall (the vast area inside the 42nd Street center entrance). Sometime after we decamped for the newly-built Broadcast Center on the West Side, a tennis operation moved in, now about to be closed in favor of a lounge for railroad workers: http://mas.org/grand-central-tennis-club-a-little-known-piece-of-history / and http://gothamist.com/2009/03/19/grand_central_tennis_courts_once_se.php Time marches on... Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 5 15:37:23 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:37:23 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand Central Station In-Reply-To: <9BB450C5-A93A-4355-BC98-88D7A32CE7D9@neonmargarita.com> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> <276B0ECF-6D5D-4185-9F7D-AA1CCF6804DD@colorist.org> <9BB450C5-A93A-4355-BC98-88D7A32CE7D9@neonmargarita.com> Message-ID: <8C1212E0-44AF-4EB4-B901-E7ECD825E094@colorist.org> On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Jeff Heusser wrote: > Nat Geo ran a 2 hr documentary on Grand Central recently and talked > quite a bit about that mural > > http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/insidegrandcentral/ there's a lot of lore on GC that I can recall that would bore a lot of people. One aspect that I find not boring is regarding the ceiling, the reversed constellations, and the method of replacing the bulbs for the stars. Another is the tunnels, myriad and serpentine, below and among the tracks on several levels. Read Mark Helprin's "Winter's Tale" for more lore. New York's original Pennsylvania Station (a through-rail station) was thought by many to be the most awesome architectural achievement in public spaces of the very early 20th century, and I had the pleasure of seeing it live through my mother's appreciative eyes, when I was young. > The show was fascinating if you see it come around again. I worked > in NY the year it came out and commuted through there daily... I > remember it coming out. you remember it when you were coming out, or when you emerged from the station/terminal, or ..... :) > On Jun 4, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > >> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. >> 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 >> Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. >> ==== >> >> >> >> On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:33 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: >> >>> You made me think of the Kodak Colorama that used to be in Grand >>> Central Station in NYC. >> >> oh yes, that was one of the largest advertisements of its time, and >> also one of the most beautiful. I remember the first one, and even >> my mom, a fierce defender of original architecture, was happy with >> it, in that holy grail of design, Grand Central. >> >> -- Rob Lingelbach >> rob at colorist.org -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 5 15:42:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:42:03 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in GrandCentralStation In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266543@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org><24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com><28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <0C75F779-317A-4DB4-A201-63653E6AB443@tedlangdell.com> <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266543@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2009, at 11:36 AM, Kassner, Neal wrote: > > Sometime after we decamped for the newly-built Broadcast Center on the > West Side, a tennis operation moved in, now about to be closed in > favor > of a lounge for railroad workers: If the high-speed railroad between L.A. and Las Vegas is ever built, it would be a railroad for lounge workers. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From BTopazio at company3.com Fri Jun 5 15:55:59 2009 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:55:59 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in GrandCentralStation In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org><24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com><28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC6340263A045@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Grand Central Station is the post office on the other side of the terminal. Now "Graham Central Station"... -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of White Peter Mr (EAFA) Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 5:30 AM To: Group Internet Telecine Subject: Re: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in GrandCentralStation Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== ....A fact that children around the world have learnt through 'Madagascar'. I think. Being an adult, I don't think I rememberised it properly... Pete White -------------------- >it's NOT "Grand Central Station", but rather "Grand Central Terminal". Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From lists at neonmargarita.com Fri Jun 5 15:56:55 2009 From: lists at neonmargarita.com (Jeff Heusser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:56:55 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand Central Station In-Reply-To: <8C1212E0-44AF-4EB4-B901-E7ECD825E094@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> <276B0ECF-6D5D-4185-9F7D-AA1CCF6804DD@colorist.org> <9BB450C5-A93A-4355-BC98-88D7A32CE7D9@neonmargarita.com> <8C1212E0-44AF-4EB4-B901-E7ECD825E094@colorist.org> Message-ID: <95EBE87D-96D5-4419-A72C-653AF6B78F7B@neonmargarita.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 7:37 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: >> The show was fascinating if you see it come around again. I worked >> in NY the year it came out and commuted through there daily... I >> remember it coming out. > you remember it when you were coming out, or when you emerged from > the station/terminal, or ..... > :) Yeah, right after I hit send I realized that sentence got mangled. I meant that I commuted thru GC during the time they tore out the mural... lot's of dead brain cels since then but I do remember how bright it was in the terminal once the windows were uncovered. The mural was impressive as well but it was so much better without it. Jeff --- Jeff Heusser neonmargarita.com jeff at neonmargarita.com @neonmarg fxguide.com fxphd.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 5 16:02:24 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:02:24 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Backlighting Chromes-Kodak Colorama in Grand Central Station In-Reply-To: <95EBE87D-96D5-4419-A72C-653AF6B78F7B@neonmargarita.com> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org> <24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com> <276B0ECF-6D5D-4185-9F7D-AA1CCF6804DD@colorist.org> <9BB450C5-A93A-4355-BC98-88D7A32CE7D9@neonmargarita.com> <8C1212E0-44AF-4EB4-B901-E7ECD825E094@colorist.org> <95EBE87D-96D5-4419-A72C-653AF6B78F7B@neonmargarita.com> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2009, at 11:56 AM, Jeff Heusser wrote: > Yeah, right after I hit send I realized that sentence got mangled. in a fun way, making it at least a triple-entendre. > I meant that I commuted thru GC during the time they tore out the > mural... lot's of dead brain cels since then but I do remember how > bright it was in the terminal once the windows were uncovered. The > mural was impressive as well but it was so much better without it. I didn't realize the windows were covered for the gigantic vertical light box! sacre bleu! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From lewis at lewissaunders.com Fri Jun 5 18:39:25 2009 From: lewis at lewissaunders.com (Lewis Saunders) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:39:25 +0100 Subject: [Tig] On the tonal distribution of film grain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter Swinson wrote in another thread: > some process added to try and emulate film grain. And > they almost always get it wrong, loads of grain in the highlights, > clean in the lowlights, quite the opposite to real film. [snip] > Real grain > is predominant in lowlights and all but zero in highlights. This is something I'm both curious and confused about :) I agree that when I look at a film image, I notice grain much more in shadows than highlights. I'd just like to understand better why. Stu Maschwitz wrote about this at the end of an bit on dynamic range: http://prolost.com/blog/2008/6/2/on-clipping-part-1.html. Particularly, "Because film's noise is proportional to its logarithmic response, which matches our perception of light, the result is noise that appears evenly distributed throughout the image". I'm not clear on why grain would have anything to do with a log function... as I understand it film has a pretty linear response to light inside the toe/shoulder. Wouldn't grain follow that? Isn't the use of logarithms in densitometry (and data coding) just a convenience for our puny brains, and nothing to do with the physics at work? If I look on a scope at what the film grain simulation in Shake does, it certainly adds more grain in the shadows, and that matches real grain very well. A complex subject for a Friday afternoon... could anyone shed any light? Or any pointers to literature discussing this kind of thing? -- Lewis Saunders Compositor London From rob at cinelab.com Fri Jun 5 19:49:24 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:49:24 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Doing Onelights for Red In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5698361B-FAA0-45AC-84E6-E0B4C07591A9@cinelab.com> > Although I think that it might be a market for really High-End > clients that Demand to have an offline with the correct look, > preferably made by their favorite colorist. Are red and high end mutually exclusive ? I know I would rather shoot 35 or D21 F35 etc if there is budget and I think most would agree. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Jun 5 17:02:14 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:02:14 -0700 Subject: [Tig] CBS at Grand Central--Details In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266543@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65959@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local><87008A19-BF46-42A7-A5B2-9A9C0ADDA264@colorist.org><24C416D4-94EB-408E-A5A0-E0B87D4FEFE4@tedlangdell.com><28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266542@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <0C75F779-317A-4DB4-A201-63653E6AB443@tedlangdell.com> <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266543@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: This interesting site: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Grand_Central_Terminal has these details: ---- From 1939 to 1964 CBS Television occupied a large portion of the terminal building, particularly above the main waiting room. The space was used for four studios (41-44), network master control, film projection and recording, and facilities for local station WCBS-TV. In 1958, the first major videotape operations facility in the world opened in a former rehearsal room on the seventh floor of the main terminal building. The facility used fourteen Ampex VR-1000 videotape recorders. The CBS Evening News began its broadcasts there with Douglas Edwards. Many of the historic events during this period, such as John Glenn's Mercury-Atlas 6 space mission, were broadcast from this location. Edward R. Murrow's "See It Now" originated from Grand Central, including his famous broadcasts on Senator Joseph McCarthy. The Murrow broadcasts were recreated in George Clooney's movie "Good Night, and Good Luck." The movie took a number of liberties, in that it was implied that the offices of CBS News and CBS corporate offices were located in the same building as the studios (the news offices were located first in the GCT office building, north of the main terminal, and later in the nearby Graybar Building; corporate offices at the time were at 485 Madison Avenue). The long-running panel show "What's My Line?" was first broadcast from the GCT studios. The former studio space is now in use as tennis courts, which are operated by Donald Trump. ---- There's a website for the retired CBS engineers in NYC: http://cbsretirees.com that has quite a few photos of early CBS facilities. Here's one you'll chuckle or marvel at: http://cbsretirees.com/pho198.htm There are tons of photos of NYC and other CBS facilities and people here: http://cbsretirees.com/photo-rem.htm including a batch from NBC's Dennis Degan taken in the Broadcast Center in 1978. Here's a page that includes scans of telecine layouts for Grand Central, including a notation about a Super8 projector added to handle the Zapruder film of Pres. Kennedy's assassination: http://cbsretirees.com/rem-images/Gady-2/page1.html And here's a rate card for facilities. What would something cost today? http://cbsretirees.com/rem-images/Gady-2/image4.html There are several Grand Central photos on this page, including a VR-1000 Quad. http://cbsretirees.com/rem-images/page_7/page1.html Enjoy... Ted On Jun 5, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Kassner, Neal wrote: > > On Friday, June 05, 2009 3:53 AM, Ted Langdell wrote: > >> And one can't forget GCT's connection to broadcasting, telecine and > videotape... as CBS had studios and facilities there >for a number of > years in the "Golden Age" of television. > >> That's not mentioned on the GCT history. Be interesting to hear more > about what it took to get a broadcast on the air from there. > > Yeah, I wish I knew more about that; sadly, pretty much all the people > who worked there back in the day have moved on (in one way or > another). > From what I can gather, CBS used the space above what's known as > Vanderbilt Hall (the vast area inside the 42nd Street center > entrance). > Sometime after we decamped for the newly-built Broadcast Center on the > West Side, a tennis operation moved in, now about to be closed in > favor > of a lounge for railroad workers: > > http://mas.org/grand-central-tennis-club-a-little-known-piece-of-history > / > > and > > http://gothamist.com/2009/03/19/ > grand_central_tennis_courts_once_se.php > > Time marches on... > > > Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM > > > Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From adelle at laserpacific.com Fri Jun 5 20:24:58 2009 From: adelle at laserpacific.com (Andy Delle) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:24:58 -0700 Subject: [Tig] CBS at Grand Central--Details Message-ID: I also read somewhere that TV City in LA was built and functional before W57th in NY. Andy Delle Laser Pacific Media Corporation From cfharr at erols.com Fri Jun 5 20:39:33 2009 From: cfharr at erols.com (Chuck Harrison) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tig] On the tonal distribution of film grain Message-ID: <20090605153933.CJO67126@ms17.lnh.mail.rcn.net> I'm sure this topic can go very deep but here are two simple approximations to the physics that i think of: (1) for starters, assume that most of the grain is in the negative, and that the print film is inherently finer grain and adds very little. (2) film stock has many different sized grains of silver halide. In the shadows only the big sized grains get developed, and with more light the added density in the negative comes from developing additional smaller and smaller sized grains Cheers, Chuck ---- orginal text ---- This is something I'm both curious and confused about :) I agree that when I look at a film image, I notice grain much more in shadows than highlights. I'd just like to understand better why. From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com Sat Jun 6 00:44:13 2009 From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:44:13 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Doing Onelights for Red In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74688869-E746-4C30-A99E-66A82DE732AA@monkeyswithchopstix.com> I believe the biggest reason for doing this would be to simulate a tape-based workflow. Some shows/producers are just more comfortable with that. The other aspect is that one of the nice things about the Red workflow is if the offline material was transferred incorrectly, it's "easy" enough to do a "retransfer" of the material for color correction. But in a tape-based workflow it is relatively difficult to get back to the R3D files if you need to retransfer. Saying that BaseLight Transfer, new Clipster, Red Rocket, etc... May make it easier to have a onelight transfer workflow and still be able to easily get back to R3D if needed. I believe in the right hands the Red is a pretty impressive tool... Is it the best digital camera? No. Can it make pretty pictures? Yes. Best, Erik (designed the workflow for A&E's The Cleaner) Datalab Modern VideoFilm --- All grammar and spelling errors due to fat thumbs and a virtual keyboard. On Jun 5, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Carl Skaff wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 > Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Hi all > > is anyone doing "onelights" for Red material? > I can't really see a market for doing that, you might aswell just > use the QuickTime and the Look the DoP made... From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Sat Jun 6 00:50:43 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson at compuserve.com) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:50:43 -0400 Subject: [Tig] On the tonal distribution of film grain Message-ID: <8CBB44F929092DA-B58-266B@angweb-usm002.sysops.aol.com> On the tonal distribution of film grain Lewis Saunders asked about grain distribution vs density. Lewis I think Rob has placed somewhere on the TIG my graphics explaining the distribution. Rob, any idea where? Anyway let me try and explain. As I understand it, film exposure relies on a minimum of 4 photons hitting a grain of silver halide and converting at least one atom in that single grain into metallic silver. Therefore the bigger the grain the more chance of a single grain capturing 4 photons. If we now make the grains of many many sizes then we have a material where the largest grain needs the least photons over a unit area to create one silver atom, whereas the smallest grain needs a great deal of photons over the same unit area to create one silver atom. From this it can be seen that films dynamic range is largely determined by the size range of grains. Processing the film basically amplifies the effect as follows. The developer “looks” at each silver halide grain. If it finds one or more metallic silver atoms it converts all the halide to metallic silver atoms in that grain. If it finds no silver atoms in a grain it simply leaves it as a silver halide which is removed further down the process. So we end up with exposed grains as “lumps” of silver and voids where unexposed grains were. Other processes convert the silver “lumps” into dye clouds in color material. Now consider a low exposure, only the larger grains are exposed and result in silver or a dye cloud, all the lesser size grains are unexposed and are subsequently “washed out” of the film in processing. Therefore we have, at low exposures a sea of large grains in an otherwise clear material resulting in a low film density. As the exposure for lighter parts of the scene are captured more and more smaller grains surrounding the larger grains are now also exposed and converted to silver/dye clouds. These mingle with the larger grains making a more even and closer distribution and greater film density. At high exposure levels almost all grain sizes right down to the smallest are convert to silver and when processed form a closer and closer distribution of silver/dye clouds forming a homogenous high density. Thinking of the above it becomes clear that low exposures are seen as grainy images as the big grains float in an otherwise “washed” clear emulsion. As density increases and smaller and smaller grains add to the exposure the perceived granularity reduces towards a homogenous multiplicity of grain/dye clouds. Films ability to handle extreme highlights is largely due to the ability to make extremely small grains that require very high illumination levels to capture 4 photons. Conv ersely lowlight capture can be enhanced by making very large grains. This is why fast film tends to be more grainy. In a nutshell the technology of milling wider and wider controlled ranges of grain sizes and accurately placing them in the film emulsion is the power of film’s dynamic range Hope this helps rather than confuses. Peter Swinson ________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your email address define you - Define yourself at http://www.tunome.com today! From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Sat Jun 6 10:54:16 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson at compuserve.com) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 05:54:16 -0400 Subject: [Tig] On the tonal distribution of film grain In-Reply-To: <8CBB44F929092DA-B58-266B@angweb-usm002.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBB44F929092DA-B58-266B@angweb-usm002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CBB4A3E33902DC-A44-27E0@angweb-usm001.sysops.aol.com> Lewis Saunders asked about grain distribution vs density.    Lewis I think Rob has placed somewhere on the TIG my graphics explaining the distribution. Rob, any idea where?    Anyway let me try and explain. As I understand it, film exposure relies on a minimum of 4 photons hitting a grain of silver halide and converting at least one atom in that single grain into metallic silver.  Therefore the bigger the grain the more chance of a single grain capturing 4 photons. If we now make the grains of many many sizes then we have a material where the largest grain needs the least photons over a unit area to create one silver atom, whereas the smallest grain needs a great deal of photons over the same unit area to create one silver atom. From this it can be seen that films dynamic range is largely determined by the size range of grains. Processing the film basically amplifies the effect as follows. The developer “looks” at each silver halide grain. If it finds one or more metallic silver atoms it converts all the halide to metallic silver atoms in that grain. If it finds no silver atoms in a grain it simply leaves it as a silver halide which is removed further down the process. So we end up with exposed grains as “lumps” of silver and voids where unexposed grains were. Other processes convert the silver “lumps” into dye clouds in c olor material.    Now consider a low exposure, only the larger grains are exposed and result in silver or a dye cloud, all the lesser size grains are unexposed and are subsequently “washed out” of the film in processing. Therefore we have, at low exposures a sea of large grains in an otherwise clear material resulting in a low film density. As the exposure for lighter parts of the scene are captured more and more smaller grains surrounding the larger grains are now also exposed and converted to silver/dye clouds. These mingle with the larger grains making a more even and closer distribution and greater film density. At high exposure levels almost all grain sizes right down to the smallest are convert to silver and when processed form a closer and closer distribution of silver/dye clouds forming a homogenous high density.    Thinking of the above it becomes clear that low exposures are seen as grainy images as the big grains float in an otherwise “washed” clear emulsion. As density increases and smaller and smaller grains add to the exposure the perceived granularity reduces towards a homogenous multiplicity of grain/dye clouds.    Films ability to handle extreme highlights is largely due to the ability to make extremely small grains that require very high illumination levels to capture 4 photons. Conversely lowlight capture can be enhanced by making very large grains. This is why fast film tends to be more grainy.    In a nutshell the technology of milling wider and wider controlled ranges of grain sizes and accurately placing them in the film emulsion is the power of film’s dynamic range    Hope this helps rather than confuses.    Peter Swinson  ________________________________________________________________________  Don't let your email address define you - Define yourself at http://www.tunome.com today!  ________________________________________________________________________ Don't let your email address define you - Define yourself at http://www.tunome.com today! From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Jun 5 22:41:08 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:41:08 -0700 Subject: [Tig] CBS at Grand Central--Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CBS-TVC opened in 1952 with four studios, and now has eight. Ted On Jun 5, 2009, at 12:24 PM, Andy Delle wrote: > I also read somewhere that TV City in LA was built and functional > before W57th in NY. > > Andy Delle > Laser Pacific Media Corporation > > -----Original Message----- > From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On > Behalf Of Ted Langdell > Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:02 AM > To: Group Internet Telecine > Subject: Re: [Tig] CBS at Grand Central--Details > > This interesting site: > http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Grand_Central_Terminal > > has these details: > > ---- > From 1939 to 1964 CBS Television occupied a large portion of the > terminal building, particularly above the main waiting room. The space > was used for four studios (41-44), network master control, film > projection and recording, and facilities for local station WCBS-TV. > > In 1958, the first major videotape operations facility in the world > opened in a former rehearsal room on the seventh floor of the main > terminal building. The facility used fourteen Ampex VR-1000 videotape > recorders. The CBS Evening News began its broadcasts there with > Douglas Edwards. Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From weagles at bigpond.net.au Sat Jun 6 05:06:06 2009 From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (Warren Eagles) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:06:06 +1000 Subject: [Tig] re Doing Onelights for Red In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ABBD3B9-7CA1-430B-9E21-70A2544A247A@bigpond.net.au> Hi Carl, I would say the opposite for TVCs. Directors, DPs, Producers and their clients all like to see a grade that reflects the DPs vision on their editorial tapes and viewing DVDs QT files etc. RED or any digital format should be treated the same as film, and I don't think I have done a true one-light from film in the last 15 years! Cheers Warren Warren Eagles Freelance Colorist International Colorist Academy www.icolorist.com weagles at bigpond.net.au +61 421603111 > Hi all > > is anyone doing "onelights" for Red material? > I can't really see a market for doing that, you might aswell just > use the QuickTime and the Look the DoP made... From rob at colorist.org Sat Jun 6 14:49:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:49:03 -0300 Subject: [Tig] On the tonal distribution of film grain In-Reply-To: <8CBB4A3E33902DC-A44-27E0@angweb-usm001.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBB44F929092DA-B58-266B@angweb-usm002.sysops.aol.com> <8CBB4A3E33902DC-A44-27E0@angweb-usm001.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3810236A-ACAB-4611-9BB9-1C861B4530BC@colorist.org> On Jun 6, 2009, at 6:54 AM, peter_swinson at compuserve.com wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 > Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Lewis Saunders asked about grain distribution vs density. > > > Lewis I think Rob has placed somewhere on the TIG my graphics > explaining the distribution. Rob, any idea where? I'm trying to find it Peter, in my search it would help to know a precise string of characters to look for, and a rough idea of the date it was put on the site, if you can remember. do you think "grain distribution" is definitely included in the document verbatim? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Jun 6 16:19:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 12:19:14 -0300 Subject: [Tig] re Doing Onelights for Red In-Reply-To: <1ABBD3B9-7CA1-430B-9E21-70A2544A247A@bigpond.net.au> References: <1ABBD3B9-7CA1-430B-9E21-70A2544A247A@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <026138C8-4784-46FB-9FA8-BB5EFDAD90C9@colorist.org> On Jun 6, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Warren Eagles wrote: > I would say the opposite for TVCs. > Directors, DPs, Producers and their clients all like > to see a grade that reflects the DPs vision on their editorial tapes > and viewing DVDs QT files etc. > RED or any digital format should be treated the same as film, and I > don't think I > have done a true one-light from film in the last 15 years! It's true, I too haven't done a true one-light in many years. I try to correct the people who use the term, and also correct the rate cards, as there's no reason I can think of to charge a lower rate for a one-light, when it's often more exacting than a final grade. I started recording my one-lights on final -grade tapes back in the 90s because as often as not, there was no difference between the one-light and the final, for the Directors with whom I had a strong rapport. I left it up to the in-house producers how to structure the billing, when I saved the client the expense of a final session. The production company was often elated at saving significant money, and then we, the facility, could book another session in its place, provoking even more elation. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Jun 7 00:36:14 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:36:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] GraphicsMagick adding Hald CLUT support Message-ID: Today, development GraphicsMagick gained Hald CLUT support (see http://www.quelsolaar.com/technology/clut.html for overview) which is really simple and really cool. The 'convert' and 'mogrify' commands now support a -hald-clut option. This is a community-supported project. It was partly funded by Cedric Lejeune of workflowers.net, with most of the work done by Clement Follet based on code from Eskil Steenberg's HaldCLUT sample programs. As an example of the new functionality gm convert identity:10 -negate negate-clut.png gm convert somefile.jpg -hald-clut negate-clut.png negated.jpg In the above, "identity:10" produces a Hald CLUT identity image of order 10 (1000x1000 or 1,000,000 colors). The -negate applies a 'negate' transform on the identity CLUT before saving it. Then we use the resulting negate-clut.png to replicate the function of -negate, but using the CLUT. Of course sophisticated users will want to use this functionality for much more complex adjustments than negation. Photoshop or any other image editing software may be used to adjust a Hald Identity CLUT so it may be used for any color correction task. Testers are needed. The latest snapshot version may be downloaded from "ftp://ftp.graphicsmagick.org/pub/GraphicsMagick/snapshots". Please report any bugs. Bob P.S. I am biased. I work on the GraphicsMagick project. -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Sun Jun 7 19:21:16 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:21:16 -0300 Subject: [Tig] GraphicsMagick adding Hald CLUT support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bob, Cedric. this is quite interesting and seems to be a very worthwhile project. I'd like to feature it on the TIG site as an entry point for those who want to experiment or apply it. With your permission I'll duplicate the posting by Bob on the main TIG page. > Today, development GraphicsMagick gained Hald CLUT support (see http://www.quelsolaar.com/technology/clut.html > for overview) which is really simple and really cool. The > 'convert' and 'mogrify' commands now support a -hald-clut option. Is there any license applicable to the code? regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jun 8 05:13:57 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:13:57 -0300 Subject: [Tig] walk-in telecine closet Message-ID: <88EEEA7C-D4F9-4BF1-A58B-3DE495D6992F@colorist.org> from http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_12537736 ..does anyone have any more info on this, other than the spelling correction (principal) ? "It was the best three years of my life," said David, who shot principle photography in the summer of 2005. He then went to work on the effects and post-production in the family's Granada Hills home, which he turned into something of a mini-studio with sound recording and editing rooms, a walk-in closet-sized telecine operation and woodworking and machine shops in the converted garage. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From larslundeberg at hotmail.com Mon Jun 8 20:44:12 2009 From: larslundeberg at hotmail.com (Lars Lundeberg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:44:12 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? Message-ID: Question: Does film and video/CCD react differently to light waves hitting out of phase? Maybe a stupid question or something you have discussed? (Haven´t been able to find a thread on this) Background: With analog FM-multipath, the radio wave bounces from several positions and reaches the antenna in several time delayed versions. The receiver, unable to react to + and - at the same time, reads a distorted wave from various cancellations (and additions) But all signals are there, clean, at the antenna. And would create a different result if positive and negative could be added in the receiver. Since light is radio waves with higher frequency, is the same true for light hitting a video camera tube or a CCD camera? Given the short wave lengths, one would assume a typical picture holds many thousands of out-of-phase-multipath points. Does electronic gathering read these as distortion? So what about film? Can it react to positive and negative signals at the same time? Thus adding + and - without cancellation? Furthermore; These out-of-phase-multipath points should be moving around. If objects in the picture, or the camera, or the light source, or the air,.. is moving. Is this why movements appear different on film and video? A video or CCD camera should only be able to do one reading of any out-of-phase point per field. A film frame is exposed long enough for moving out-of-phase points to be registered over a bigger area. Making film more blurry/smooth? And how does the eye see these colliding versions of the same light ray? Maybe there are big holes in this line of questioning. But it sure would be interesting to learn more. Lars _________________________________________________________________ Invite your mail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces. It's easy! http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Jun 8 22:44:26 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:44:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 2009, Lars Lundeberg wrote: > > Question: Does film and video/CCD react differently to light waves hitting out of phase? You have lots of interesting ideas. Light has properties both of particles and of waves. This means that it supports diffraction (a wave property) as well as acting like a particle. What a CCD or film sees is the energy from the light particle (photon) but there can certainly be distortions from passing through anything but air, or through an aperture. As we (should know), the common notion of the "speed of light" is a maximum and the speed of light can be slower. The ability to slow down the speed of light (speed of light is less in glass than in the air) allows us to make lenses and prisms (refraction). Light also has the ability to be reflected, which causes obvious problems for any light capture device. Since light is a wave it may be filtered via a fine optical grating commonly known as a polarizing filter. Light which beats the wrong way sill be filtered out. However, light reflected off a building is also naturally polarized due to the reflection. Scientists have been studying the properties of light for over 1000 years and they still continue to study it. Besides allowing us to see, light is used for a great many other functions (e.g. manufacturing computer chips) and may eventually allow us to produce tremendous energy from common elements found in the ocean (fusion). Light is amazing. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Jun 9 20:25:02 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:25:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] GraphicsMagick adding Hald CLUT support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone who downloaded a GraphicsMagick snapshot prior to the 1.4.020090609 snapshot (produced today) with the intent to try out the Hald CLUT support should re-download. Some memory access bugs were discovered which could cause wrong output, and execution performance has been improved. The latest snapshot version may be downloaded from "ftp://ftp.graphicsmagick.org/pub/GraphicsMagick/snapshots". Please report any bugs. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bobfesta at mac.com Tue Jun 9 03:35:32 2009 From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:35:32 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Toronto Dailies Message-ID: Looking for a commercial dailies facility in Toronto. 35mm to DV. Flex file. 20,000 feet. Any recommendations? ___________________________________ Bob Festa newhat.tv 1819 Colorado Santa Monica 310 401-2220 California, 90293 From carl at stopp.se Mon Jun 8 21:27:18 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:27:18 +0200 Subject: [Tig] re Doing Onelights for Red Message-ID: >>I would say the opposite for TVCs. >>Directors, DPs, Producers and their clients all like >>to see a grade that reflects the DPs vision on their editorial tapes >>and viewing DVDs QT files etc. >>RED or any digital format should be treated the same as film, and I >>don't think I >>have done a true one-light from film in the last 15 years! >> >>Cheers >>Warren Does that mean that for TVCs shot on tape-based-cameras still do "onelights"? /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From frank at opticalart.de Tue Jun 9 09:57:24 2009 From: frank at opticalart.de (Frank Hellmann) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:57:24 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2E23F4.2030906@opticalart.de> Hi Lars, I had my last physics lessons quite a while ago, so I wouldn't take my thoughts to seriously... You will have same effects with light than radio-waves when it comes down to diffraction and interference. With a special setup like the double-slit experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment ) this can be shown. And as it can be shown, it can be recorded on film or CCDs. But you have see that this cancellation is not a property inherited in the reciever (film/ccd), but occurs before hitting it. So it is more a question of what is happening to the light before it hits the reciever. CCDs might react differently if you'll add a bayer pattern on top off the CCD cell, but in itself the CCD cell will do what it always does, register incoming photons. The same goes for film grain. If the grain is hit by a photon it will register that and do a chemical conversion. There is no: we'll add three photons to the grain and the next time we'll extract one photon due to interference. If there is a photon, it will be registered and kept. So, yes the image on either film or CCD will register the final interference patterns, but it won't record all informations that led to the interference. Then again, this only works so visible if you use a coherent light source that is "in-phase" in the beginning. Most light sources are not and the interferences happening will be so few compared to the mass of light not interfering that these patterns are not visible. I hope I didn't make too many jumps and errors in my thoughts. Best, Frank... From turnto at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 8 23:41:03 2009 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] 16mm mag sound on film Message-ID: <721287.84182.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hello folks. Well I am in need of the 16mm sound on film mag strip head assembly for Old Betsy (Cintel MK3). Anyone have one collecting dust somewhere and willing to part with it? Thanks Dave Keleshian CBS Television City From jdhouston at earthlink.net Tue Jun 9 05:40:30 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:40:30 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sometimes, thinking about things from analogy can lead to a wrong model of how things work. Consider the basics, the wavelength of radio waves is in the 10s of meters (and antenna only catch a fraction of the full wavelength). So antenna can be effected by interference patterns of various powered (amplified) radio waves that are longer than the size of the antenna. Light has wavelengths measured in the 100s of nanometers. (.0000001 meters). If a CCD was built where each pixel was a fraction of the wavelength of light, it would have very strong interference effects. Both film and CCDs capture light at a size that is a million times larger than the photon. If you had a radio antenna that was 1 million meters long, you wouldn't be worrying about multipath and interference effects. Jim Houston On Jun 8, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Lars Lundeberg wrote: > > Question: Does film and video/CCD react differently to light waves > hitting out of phase? > From steve at veralith.com Tue Jun 9 14:18:29 2009 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:18:29 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Check out the grading app in the iTunes app store! NOT SPAM Message-ID: OK, I don't work for The Mill or Apple. The Mill has an iPhone app available for free in the iTunes store (under Photography) that allows you to grade video and stills on your iPhone. They then allow you to post the results to their Flicker account and they're having contests for the best graded images. The app is called Mill Colour. Talk about the democratization of color grading... From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 10 01:55:00 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:55:00 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Check out the grading app in the iTunes app store! NOT SPAM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Steve Hullfish wrote: > OK, I don't work for The Mill or Apple. > > The Mill has an iPhone app available for free in the iTunes store > (under Photography) that allows you to grade video and stills on > your iPhone. They then allow you to post the results to their > Flicker account and they're having contests for the best graded > images. The app is called Mill Colour. Talk about the > democratization of color grading... this is both scary and incredible. it was only going to be a matter of time. but would I remix audio from an mp3 with some kind of audio application? tell me the video would be better as a source than audio as an mp3. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com Wed Jun 10 01:57:14 2009 From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:57:14 -0700 Subject: [Tig] re Doing Onelights for Red In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. Especially Genesis, F23/35, etc... Sometimes they even run through telecine just to make lists for editorial, or new masters with circle takes (and clean timecode), etc... Erik Modern VideoFilm --- All grammar and spelling errors due to fat thumbs and a virtual keyboard. From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 10 03:26:23 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:26:23 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6386F2D4-283F-4164-996C-A40F79C8C3D3@colorist.org> On Jun 9, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jim Houston wrote: > Consider the basics, the > wavelength of radio waves is in the 10s of meters (and antenna > only catch a fraction of the full wavelength). So antenna can be > effected > by interference patterns of various powered (amplified) radio waves > that > are longer than the size of the antenna. well actually there are many frequency bands that have full or multiple-wavelength antennas at RF. These can be the best antennas due to their gain. I lived for a while right below a radio amateur in the Hollywood Hills who had Beverage Antennas 2 wavelengths long in 15, 20, and 40 meter bands. You couldn't even see the antennas as they were longwires supported by poles at the edge of his large, flat property, circling the edge. > Light has wavelengths measured in the 100s of nanometers. > (.0000001 meters). If a CCD was built where each pixel was a > fraction of the > wavelength of light, it would have very strong interference effects. > Both film and CCDs capture light at a size that is a million times > larger than the photon. If you had a radio antenna that was > 1 million meters long, you wouldn't be worrying about multipath > and interference effects. there are LF antennas that would surprise you with their length, in being many miles long, but the characteristics of those wavelengths are about as different as they could be, in comparison to light. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ken at flight4.org Wed Jun 10 03:54:14 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:54:14 -0300 Subject: [Tig] re Doing Onelights for Red In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101c9e976$c1bbe8a0$6700a8c0@flight4> Are they 2, 3 or 4 perf? ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 >-----Original Message----- >From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf >Of Erik Hansen > ==== >Yes. Especially Genesis, F23/35, etc... >Sometimes they even run through telecine just to make lists for >editorial, or new masters with circle takes (and clean timecode), etc... >Erik >Modern VideoFilm From carl at stopp.se Wed Jun 10 07:44:18 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:44:18 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red Message-ID: >>Are red and high end mutually exclusive ? I know I would rather shoot >>35 or D21 F35 etc if there is budget and I think most would agree. >> >>-Rob- Well, a high-end client (aka, diva director) could be forced, due to low budget, by a low-end producer to shoot on Red. And maybe that fancy director "demands" that his/hers onelight are graded by a specific colorist. For me its kind of the same (doing graded onelights from Red) as doing graded onelights from material shot on a normal videocamera like Sony F900 or any SxS/P2 camera. For me onelights/dalies/ruches, or whatever you wanna call it, are primary so you can start you edit. But what I ment is... are there clients out there that NEEDS there onelights too look closer to the final look (graded by a colorist)? Probably if you are doing a mayor Hollywood feature and have investors looking at the onelights. If it doesn't look nice I gues they could pull the plug. And therefore one might spend the extra $ doing onelights, eventhough it technically not necessary as if shot on film. /Carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From carl at stopp.se Wed Jun 10 09:03:16 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:03:16 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Flex File Message-ID: >>>Looking for a commercial dailies facility in Toronto. >>> >>>35mm to DV. Flex file. 20,000 feet. >>> >>>Any recommendations? >>>___________________________________ >>>Bob Festa I've heard about Flex fiels... But for 8 years now working in the industry I've never had a client ask for it in Sweden... What is it actually used for? I thought it was something to to with keeping track of Audio TC/VideoTC/KeyCode. But if one shoot about 15 labreels why bother with all that? Marking the rolls with 1hrs "@ punch etc etc shouldn't that be enough. And have it synked up in TK. I'm most likely wrong, since people are using it. But could someone enlighten me? /Carl From kanshaa at wanadoo.fr Wed Jun 10 14:50:41 2009 From: kanshaa at wanadoo.fr (Nicolas BILLY) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis Message-ID: <33344795.192076.1244641841519.JavaMail.www@wwinf2622> Hi Tigger's Does anyone have any experiences on 'LightMaster' from Edifis. (http://www.edifis.com) I would like any feedback from colourist who has ever used this machine. What kind of grading possibility we have on it? How many masks or layers there is? Is it possible to track a shape? Is it simple to use it?... Thank's Nicolas billy Colorist at Brussels http://nicolasbilly.no-ip.org From danmitre at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 16:07:45 2009 From: danmitre at yahoo.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Flex File Message-ID: <368997.69244.qm@web36201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Carl If you haven't heard about it in 8 years then you must have worked only with commercials and not feature films. Its true, its not necessary for Flex File/Keycode reading when it comes to commercials ,but its the client's choice. If they want to do the transfer in one place and the post in another city/country etc, then it might be better to have the keycode read since you don't know if workflow is the same all over. In some labs they don't punch every laboratory reel or every cam roll, in some places they put a X on the first frame of picture or they forget to put anything, so you never know. I've had commercials where I had to use it -Europe/Middle East and sometimes I had to do sync sound for TVCs in the Tk as well.. You never know what the client might ask for, in the end is his choice, but its true that you can give him/explain him the best option/fast /cheap and so on... My advice is to always check the origin of the film/processing /etc beforfe starting any transfer and communicate with the client which would be the best way to do it. Best, George Daniel Mitre Mobile : +971 504668243 --- On Wed, 10/6/09, Carl Skaff wrote: From: Carl Skaff Subject: [Tig] Flex File To: "tig at colorist.org" Date: Wednesday, 10 June, 2009, 8:03 PM Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== >>>Looking for a commercial dailies facility in Toronto. >>> >>>35mm to DV. Flex file. 20,000 feet. >>> >>>Any recommendations? >>>___________________________________ >>>Bob Festa I've heard about Flex fiels... But for 8 years now working in the industry I've never had a client ask for it in Sweden... What is it actually used for? I thought it was something to to with keeping track of Audio TC/VideoTC/KeyCode. But if one shoot about 15 labreels why bother with all that? Marking the rolls with 1hrs "@ punch etc etc shouldn't that be enough. And have it synked up in TK. I'm most likely wrong, since people are using it. But could someone enlighten me? /Carl _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From jpo at prestodigital.ca Wed Jun 10 15:46:04 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:46:04 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Flex File In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59286FBA-6FF0-4852-A24F-46282AC9AA3E@prestodigital.ca> > What is it actually used for? I thought it was something to to with > keeping track of Audio TC/VideoTC/KeyCode. > Flex files are an image of the EDL used to construct a transfer. They are used in several ways. First and foremost, they are at the root of a "pull list" when used in concert with edit software like Telecine Tools so that a timecode edit can be re-linked to Keycode/ Lab Roll/Camera roll. Flex files vastly simplify digitizing transferred media since most edit software can access the logged meta data so that a ready-made browser bin appears on import -- VT roll source, scene/take. If double-system sound is linked in transfer, then that relationship is also established and recorded. Most TLC- or TLC-like transfer controllers should be capable of generating both .FLX and .ALE files. ALE is the AVID List Exchange protocol. Flex files are compatible with some third-party utilities like AJA's VTR_Xchange for batch import of media. Unfortunately, most transfer facilities don't pass along these files, and when they do, the out- moded hardware platform in current use is only capable of generating 3.5" floppies -- which these days can be challenging to find drives for in the average FCP suite! EMAIL them PLEASE!!!!! Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From pickettscharge at hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:12:30 2009 From: pickettscharge at hotmail.com (Dave Pickett) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:12:30 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Flex File In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (F)ilm (L)og (Ex)change files are to color what carrying amps are to playing music, a drag. Very data specific logs of scene, take and discrepancy etc used in conjunction with some window generating device. Usually a video time code related to an edge number (keykode) with audio TC, lab roll, camera roll, video reel number, date of shoot, scene, take, tail sticks, boom in shot, flare, hair in gate, no sticks, neg dirt, wild sound, pick up, bizarre naming conventions for B camera, acmade code, 3 line VITC, dual sync windows and make sure its all out of action safe, in the letterbox or flashing for 10 frames. Back in the days of abundant assistants this was usually the domain of the assistant while the colorist made the pictures. Now its all usually done by one colorist with a 3 to 1 ratio expected. And under those conditions, unfortunately the image gets less and less attention while the database gets more. FLeX files are used mainly in long form transfers and are especially useful when transferring select scenes and not the entire lab roll punch to tail. Commercials rarely use them because you transfer the entire shoot punch to tail to establish a discreet, ascending time code to each film frame. Dave Pickett Colorist www.davepickett.com From jslomka at imageworks.com Wed Jun 10 18:27:33 2009 From: jslomka at imageworks.com (Joseph Slomka) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:27:33 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Hald Cluts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rob, HALD style luts are interesting. We have experimented with an idea like this to provide initial 'look' luts for artist reference. It's most useful when an extreme grade is applied. It allows you to make sure your effects work properly when 4 points of magenta are added. I have found it useful is to use this idea in 2 steps. One lut will have just the 3 light correction. The second lut will have the 'look' applied. This allows the look to be separated from the plate timing. This allows the look to stay the same even if a rescan is requested, or the plate timing numbers are changed. -Joseph Joseph Slomka Color Scientist Sony Pictures Imageworks From rmayer at level3post.com Wed Jun 10 18:51:19 2009 From: rmayer at level3post.com (Roger Mayer) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:51:19 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Flex File In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E97AF7B2357A8499AE9561C4383B611AFE7DE@alameda2901ex02.corp.ad> In addition to Dave Pickett's list, the additional strength of the Flex file is its ability to keep track of the timecodes of multiple VTR record and Playback machines (in many cases running at 23.98 and 29.97). Add this to Audio timecode, Film Edgecode and also (although less so these days) an Ink number, Scene, Take, Cam Roll, Lab Roll Audio reel and Vtr reel names and it becomes an invaluable source of metadata for any process that requires tracing or retransfer. Roger H. Mayer Level 3 Post, Burbank, CA 818-840-7289 From rob at cinelab.com Wed Jun 10 18:31:06 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:31:06 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Flex File In-Reply-To: <59286FBA-6FF0-4852-A24F-46282AC9AA3E@prestodigital.ca> References: <59286FBA-6FF0-4852-A24F-46282AC9AA3E@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: > Unfortunately, most transfer facilities don't pass along these > files, and when they do, the out-moded hardware platform in current > use is only capable of generating 3.5" floppies -- which these days > can be challenging to find drives for in the average FCP suite! > EMAIL them PLEASE!!!!! Actually if you have a Keylink you can install a network card and generate the files to disk and burn them to CD or DVD over the network. I am not sure about Evertz.... -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From filmcolourist at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 23:07:59 2009 From: filmcolourist at gmail.com (David Gibson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:07:59 +1200 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> In my experience with RED shot for the commercial market, I'm encountering a growing resistance from Directors and DOPs to use the RED QTs or a simple REC709 O/P from Redcine or equivalent for dallies. As pretty as these systems make the pictures look, quite often they are a million miles away from the proposed final look of the finished commercial. Unfortunately, clients get used to looking at the pretty pictures, so during the final grade you get a lot of pressure to essentially replicate the dallies! and trying to push the grade into a more 'creative' place is met with resistance, least we forget the commercial market can be a very conservative place, especially in these 'poorer' times. This never happens when you do film dallies, 'cus as a colourist you talk to the DOP or Director and get the dallies into a world that will closely approximate the final look, thus the clients get used to seeing graded pictures and the final grade goes without any hassle. I'm finding the BLT and Baselight particularly good at achieving quick grades and looks for RED dallies, I can grade the dallies to where the DOP want s them to be and I can re-assure the Director, DOP, etc that there is plenty of latitude in the pictures, much in the same way I re-assure these people once I have done graded rushes from film. So, in my opinion, there is a huge market for graded RED rushes or for that matter any HD medium. Whether there is budget for it is an entirely different matter.... Dave " I've never done a Onelight in my Life" Gibson I have no affiliation with Filmlight or the RED folks. Dave Gibson Senior Colourist MOB: +64 21 345527 EMAIL: dave at digipost.co.nz From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 10 23:24:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:24:25 -0300 Subject: [Tig] session direction Message-ID: the best way to illustrate the question might be this analogy: You're in an interview, for a most important position, or to bid for a most important client, in the office of the interviewer, where you've never set foot before. You entered through one door. At the end of the interview, after salutations are exchanged, you are left to make your own way out of the office, and, needless to say, impressions are important in this competitive situation. This is when you notice there are two identical doors, and you don't remember which one you entered. Your choices: 1) you interrupt the interviewer's obviously important continuing business to ask which door is the exit. 2) you stride purposefully to the door that is your best guess, knowing you have anyway a 50% chance of exiting the office, or entering a dank closet. 3) you walk less assuredly toward one of the doors, open it, and poke your head out first to make sure you're not entering a closet. There are several actions and directions that the interview might have taken that would predispose you to one of the three choices, but there also might have been none. Leaving this question for a moment, and considering an analogous situation, presume you're in a session, as a colorist, with clients whom you can't quite understand, with whom you've never worked, who are unclear on what direction to take with regard to grading their TV Commercial. You've been in this kind of situation many times, and have various directions to take and slopes of difficulty you can follow, and have to improvise at least at first, with the hope that these choices will clarify themselves as you start choosing your direction, or, as you start offering options. In the initial conversation regarding the grading direction, which often occurs while at the controls, and assuming you've never worked on this kind of commercial before, nor with the clients, what determines if you decide to (returning to analogy #1, choice #2) stride confidently and metaphorically to one of the two doors that represents an exit from the first decision (doors which we could call for example "cold" and "warm"); use choice #1 in that analogy, where you ask for input before making any decision; or #3 where you start toward what you believe might be the right choice based on the design of the architecture (in reality, the way the film was shot) but then veer, in offering options, toward certain less probable courses (knocking on one of the doors from inside the office- bound to confuse and yet surprise and possibly delight the interviewer- but this is the metaphorical case- so it would in reality, be something like moving the color down a path you make up as you go along, and though the client is totally silent and without obvious encouragement as you work, your confidence in the decision is initially high). It's a thought experiment, and there may be too many variables to discuss this in anything but a theoretical manner. When you're working in a foreign country or simply in a situation where translation is required, this kind of session is more common than when working freely in your own (the colorist's) language and customs. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 11 17:14:19 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:14:19 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before Message-ID: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> The following is from Mike Williams at Warner Bros, forwarded by me due to an email problem. Editorial comment: this is certainly a subject that could generate an interesting discussion on the group. see below, thank you. --Rob Lingelbach, TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org ------ Hello fellow Tiggers, I am going to be speaking to a group of students later this year and I want to illustrate to them how jobs in the pre-production, production, and post-production process has changed over the past decade or two. For example some jobs that didn’t exist when I started out as a tape operator in the 80’s are: Data Wranglers Film recorders DI producers MTI or Dirt Removal Systems Color Science / LUT creation Can you think of additional jobs that new technologies have created? You can respond if you like to me at my home email address: heymofo at earthlink.net or at mike.williams at warnerbros.com Thanks all. Mike From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com Thu Jun 11 17:49:31 2009 From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:49:31 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA66009@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> Compressionist Whatever the person is called that puts the menus and other content together on a DVD. Visual effects artist A few I thought of, Bob Micheletii Universal Pictures, Hollywood > I want to illustrate to them how jobs in the > pre-production, production, and post-production process has > changed over the past decade or two. From steve at veralith.com Thu Jun 11 17:44:59 2009 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:44:59 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> Message-ID: <8C4F9CE3-848E-4886-99E2-0C9AFB39B262@veralith.com> DITs (Digital Imaging Technicians) - I know you guys (TIGers) know what these are, but for the students, these are the guys that help the director of photography on set with the new digital cameras. They set up the LUTS and camera looks and many of them do on-set data-wrangling/ storage as well. They are in charge of knowing the camera inside and out to accomplish the right look and to ensure that the recording is done in the right frame size, frame rate, etc. Of course, in many edit facilities, assistant editors are now demoted to simple "digitizers": people whose sole responsibility is to get the footage into the edit system. Film scanners would also be another one. I think an up and coming profession in the industry could be metadata taggers. WIth MXF and other file formats capable of carrying huge amounts of data, someone will need to input a lot of this information, or at least determine what needs to be saved with each file for a proper workflow. Another growing or changing position will be archivist. Instead of storing huge amounts of tape, the digital workflows and file-based cameras will need to be archived and have footage restored from those archives, making careful note of where stuff is and how to retrieve these valuable assets for further use in a project, revisions, monetization of some other kind (like stock footage). Not as sexy, but still a job in the industry that is becoming increasingly needed because of the FCC regulations: transcribers and closed captioning technicians. Steve Hullfish author, "The Art and Technique of Color Correction" On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:14 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > The following is from Mike Williams at Warner Bros, forwarded by me > due to an email problem. Editorial comment: this is certainly a > subject that could generate an interesting discussion on the group. > > ------ > > Hello fellow Tiggers, > > I am going to be speaking to a group of students later this year and > I want to illustrate to them how jobs in the pre-production, > production, and post-production process has changed over the past > decade or two. From steve at veralith.com Thu Jun 11 18:14:11 2009 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:14:11 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA66009@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA66009@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> Message-ID: <72F67F68-E742-4A61-80A1-D432D69BF61E@veralith.com> Compressionist is a great one. A DVD author is the guy that programs the menus and everything on a DVD. He also usually has to be a compressionist. With Bluray this job has expanded to more complex programming though it seems most Bluray disks don't utilize it that much. I've been a DVD producer, that's the guy that determines the content of the DVD (bonus features and such) and hires the DVD author and the design team that comes up with the menus and occasionally the production company that works on the bonus features. Some others I just thought of: Flash artist/Flash animator. motion capture artist - for capturing 3D animation via motion capture obviously motion effects artists have existed for a while, but since the early 80s it's a whole new ball game. also, since the 80s or even the 90s, the whole concept of 3D animators, model makers and lighters is a completely new field. many large facilities now have to have media managers to determine how and when to save, delete or archive the huge amounts of data used in the post process. I think that's different from media wranglers, but maybe not. I think of media wranglers as on-set guys. On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal) wrote: > Compressionist > Whatever the person is called that puts the menus and other content > together on a DVD. > Visual effects artist From mlbnyc at verizon.net Thu Jun 11 17:47:08 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:08 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> Message-ID: Compressionist.... the folks flying high end DVD authoring though that may already be dying/have died out.... Mike From BTopazio at company3.com Thu Jun 11 19:13:35 2009 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:13:35 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <8C4F9CE3-848E-4886-99E2-0C9AFB39B262@veralith.com> References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> <8C4F9CE3-848E-4886-99E2-0C9AFB39B262@veralith.com> Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC6340279692F@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> i-runner: This position is a full-time entry-level job. It entails running to the Apple store every time a client forgets or loses the AC adapter to whatever Apple product he or she has brought to the session and can't live without. Bill Topazio Engineering COMPANY 3 / METHOD NEW YORK -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Steve Hullfish Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:45 PM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== DITs (Digital Imaging Technicians) - I know you guys (TIGers) know what these are, but for the students, these are the guys that help the director of photography on set with the new digital cameras. They set up the LUTS and camera looks and many of them do on-set data-wrangling/ storage as well. They are in charge of knowing the camera inside and out to accomplish the right look and to ensure that the recording is done in the right frame size, frame rate, etc. Of course, in many edit facilities, assistant editors are now demoted to simple "digitizers": people whose sole responsibility is to get the footage into the edit system. Film scanners would also be another one. I think an up and coming profession in the industry could be metadata taggers. WIth MXF and other file formats capable of carrying huge amounts of data, someone will need to input a lot of this information, or at least determine what needs to be saved with each file for a proper workflow. Another growing or changing position will be archivist. Instead of storing huge amounts of tape, the digital workflows and file-based cameras will need to be archived and have footage restored from those archives, making careful note of where stuff is and how to retrieve these valuable assets for further use in a project, revisions, monetization of some other kind (like stock footage). Not as sexy, but still a job in the industry that is becoming increasingly needed because of the FCC regulations: transcribers and closed captioning technicians. Steve Hullfish author, "The Art and Technique of Color Correction" From alanr at bhphoto.com Thu Jun 11 20:12:25 2009 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:12:25 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC6340279692F@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D76904E@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Perhaps there should be an i-Accessories Technologist studio position to assure a supply of such equipment is maintained at the facility. We currently maintain a staff of i-Accessories Fulfillment Enablers in house... Alan Rosenfeld The Studio at B&H i-runner: This position is a full-time entry-level job. It entails running to the Apple store every time a client forgets or loses the AC adapter to whatever Apple product he or she has brought to the session and can't live without. Bill Topazio From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 11 20:41:49 2009 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:41:49 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Flex File In-Reply-To: <9E97AF7B2357A8499AE9561C4383B611AFE7DE@alameda2901ex02.corp.ad> References: <9E97AF7B2357A8499AE9561C4383B611AFE7DE@alameda2901ex02.corp.ad> Message-ID: <219551C2D73E411290FDEACDCDEACFC9@Desktop> If any of you saw the Helen Mirren film 'The Queen' then that is a good example of flex files being used to their greatest extent. Some of the film was shot at 24, the remainder (the scenes with TVs in shot) at 25. Edited in Avid at 24. Lab rolls were carefully split into 24fps and 25fps rolls. The resulting EDL was then converted (by me) to insert the location audio timecodes for the audio conform (bearing in mind that the 25fps material was edited as if it was shot at 24) so all of the 25fps audio had to be pitch and speed corrected in the audio dub. Phew! (and it got an Oscar) Jeff From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Jun 11 21:04:51 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:04:51 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> Message-ID: Any FX-laden A-List movie's credit roll is full of titles that the public won't know what to make of. "Trackers". Cleanup /Wire Removal, Digital Makeup, Digital Roto... These are just the technical roles... my feeling really is that the truly challenging digital wizardry is going on in "accounting".... ;-P Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Fri Jun 12 00:02:51 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson at compuserve.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:02:51 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before Message-ID: <8CBB8FFE1935FF8-1110-37DA@angweb-usd002.sysops.aol.com> Granulist, Some old fart that goes on promoting the look of film and why it is unique and yet to be beaten! (me) From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 12 01:37:09 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:37:09 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D76904E@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> References: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D76904E@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Message-ID: <5F57B117-8417-4899-82D7-4B4AA46A8EA6@colorist.org> On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Alan Rosenfeld wrote: > Perhaps there should be an i-Accessories Technologist studio > position to assure a supply of such equipment is maintained at the > facility. We currently maintain a staff of i-Accessories Fulfillment > Enablers in house... well there was that memorable film featured frequently on WOR Channel 9's Million Dollar Movie throughout the 60s, The Crawling i, that predicted all of the huzzah and razzmatazz over Apple's offerings. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 12 01:41:48 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:41:48 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: References: <97CAF95F-5C9A-4204-AE81-A4A21036B270@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Jun 11, 2009, at 5:04 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Any FX-laden A-List movie's credit roll is full of titles that the > public won't know what to make of. "Trackers". Cleanup /Wire > Removal, Digital Makeup, Digital Roto... what was the Stallone film that took wire removal to new heights? Cliffhanger? I think he would have preferred those credits be erased along with the items the erasers erased. Incidentally, I get the feeling that the latest Stallone project, which I believe is in post now, may have set a record for dailies footage, from what I hear from friends in Brasil. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From lorne.miess at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 01:48:09 2009 From: lorne.miess at gmail.com (Miess Lorne) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:48:09 -0700 Subject: [Tig] QC Reports For R3D Files Message-ID: Hi, I was at a Red Seminar last week and the subject of labs doing the equalivant of a Neg Report on R3D files came up. Colourists or assistants are being hired to watch these files and file a report. Editors are cutting with Pro-Res Quicktimes and the Bonding companies want a report of the condition of the R3D files the Quicktime are created from. It sound like a good idea I was just wondering if you've heard of a Neg Report for file based show? thanks Lorne Miess Colourist Vancouver From jdhouston at earthlink.net Fri Jun 12 03:11:12 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:11:12 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <8CBB8FFE1935FF8-1110-37DA@angweb-usd002.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBB8FFE1935FF8-1110-37DA@angweb-usd002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <9D7433DC-8AD6-44F2-AF33-8EE8C2D6B9FC@earthlink.net> On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:02 PM, peter_swinson at compuserve.com wrote: > > Granulist, One colorist suggested changing his title to "Densitist" since he had been working on a string of black and white films. Jim H From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 12 05:42:15 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:42:15 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: jobs that didn't exist before In-Reply-To: <9D7433DC-8AD6-44F2-AF33-8EE8C2D6B9FC@earthlink.net> References: <8CBB8FFE1935FF8-1110-37DA@angweb-usd002.sysops.aol.com> <9D7433DC-8AD6-44F2-AF33-8EE8C2D6B9FC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <71924A79-E1BC-43AF-B893-A751C641ABEF@colorist.org> On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:11 PM, Jim Houston wrote: > On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:02 PM, peter_swinson at compuserve.com wrote: >> >> Granulist, > > One colorist suggested changing his title to "Densitist" since he > had been > working on a string of black and white films. The string means actually he'd have been a Densitising Granulist named Hal Eyed Weaver; if the films were a string of serials it would have been a Weaving Densitising Granolist working at Sy Lo's subsidized Grain Reduction plant.... doing corny Haulin' Oats videos. The Mill would be involved somehow.. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adrian at autotv.co.uk Fri Jun 12 12:20:50 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:20:50 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> On 10 Jun 2009, at 23:07, David Gibson wrote: > > In my experience with RED shot for the commercial market, I'm > encountering a growing resistance from Directors and DOPs to use > the RED QTs or a simple REC709 O/P from Redcine or equivalent for > dallies. As pretty as these systems make the pictures look, quite > often they are a million miles away from the proposed final look of > the finished commercial. Unfortunately, clients get used to looking > at the pretty pictures, so during the final grade you get a lot of > pressure to essentially replicate the dallies! and trying to push > the grade into a more 'creative' place is met with resistance, > least we forget the commercial market can be a very conservative > place, especially in these 'poorer' times. This never happens when > you do film dallies, 'cus as a colourist you talk to the DOP or > Director and get the dallies into a world that will closely > approximate the final look, thus the clients get used to seeing > graded pictures and the final grade goes without any hassle. I'm > finding the BLT and Baselight particularly good at achieving quick > grades and looks for RED dallies, I can grade the dallies to where > the DOP want s them to be and I can re-assure the Director, DOP, > etc that there is plenty of latitude in the pictures, much in the > same way I re-assure these people once I have done graded rushes > from film. > So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look of unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? I'd be surprised if I weren't one of them. The colourist used to be a subtle, perfecting influence on the look of a piece now, often as not, a 'graded' picture is a nightmare of green blacks, over the top s-curve contrast, blinding vignettes and the like. The fashion over the last few years in commercials for washed out blacks with a desaturated sepia tint (like the excerable BT campaign) has really irritated people in a way I've not seen before. My latest bête noire is the tilt-shift lens effect. Aaargh! We had a beautiful bit of DSLR timelapse in recently that had been completely ruined by using TS on EVERY shot. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From simonastbury at hotmail.com Fri Jun 12 16:26:18 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:26:18 +0000 Subject: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis In-Reply-To: <33344795.192076.1244641841519.JavaMail.www@wwinf2622> References: <33344795.192076.1244641841519.JavaMail.www@wwinf2622> Message-ID: Hi Nicholas I have 3 years on this system, although it used to be called F-Stop. Contact me off list if you need more info. Simon Astbury Head of Grading Clear Cut Pictures www.clearcutpictures.com > From: kanshaa at wanadoo.fr > To: tig at colorist.org > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:41 +0200 > Subject: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis > > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 > Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Hi Tigger's > > Does anyone have any experiences on 'LightMaster' from Edifis. (http://www.edifis.com) > I would like any feedback from colourist who has ever used this machine. What kind of grading possibility we have on it? How many masks or layers there is? Is it possible to track a shape? Is it simple to use it?... > > Thank's > > Nicolas billy > Colorist at Brussels > http://nicolasbilly.no-ip.org > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 _________________________________________________________________ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ From vinny at cineworks.com Fri Jun 12 14:41:55 2009 From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:41:55 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: > So, in my opinion, there is a huge market for graded RED > rushes or for that matter any HD medium. Whether there is > budget for it is an entirely different matter.... Perhaps but "whether there is a budget" is always the deciding factor and unfortunately these days, "good enough" or "I hear with RED the grading is some what automated" is the mantra the marketers have spewed. The dilemma I have at this time is how to work with the original r3d files natively, minus any camera meta data settings applied but retaining the editorial metadata for editorial. Regards, Vincent Hogan President Cineworks Digital Studios, Inc. www.cineworks.com http://www.imdb.com/company/co0189980/ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: The information contained in this transmission may be privileged and confidential information, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error and then delete it. Thank you. From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 12 17:15:49 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:15:49 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <0C9C38AE-2047-456D-A4D9-7D7F3F667EE4@colorist.org> On Jun 12, 2009, at 8:20 AM, Adrian Thomas wrote: > So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look of > unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? I'd be > surprised if I weren't one of them. The colourist used to be a > subtle, perfecting influence on the look of a piece now, often as > not, a 'graded' picture is a nightmare I find a lot to agree with in your observations. Why is it that the stampeding horde jumps on a particular stylistic bandwagon, at the expense of originality?. Tortured, as perfectly described, is the artistic bent of what could be the manifestation of a fear of being left behind chasing the innovators, who then all become imitators. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Jun 12 17:22:14 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:22:14 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42271B00-0319-4D8C-A68C-E198EA19BFE4@prestodigital.ca> On 12-Jun-09, at 7:41 AM, Vincent G. Hogan wrote: > The dilemma I have at this time is how to work with the original r3d > files natively, minus any camera meta data settings applied but > retaining the editorial metadata for editorial. And there are many ways to screw that up with no recourse. The plugin utilities like RedCine and RedRushes, etc., are tempting... but they close that door, especially for Final Cut users. The workflow is very rigid and inflexible if you want to keep the R3D metadata. No re-naming, no transcoding. REDCODE, thank you. Automated grading? I've heard that one before. Now, with the RED Cine camera, I've heard you don't need a DoP anymore, either. For awhile now I've been wondering when the bonding and insuring companies would get involved. As if they weren't actually nervous about the integrity of OCN.... the vulnerability of data on consumer drives is the stuff of nightmares. The idea of a "Neg Report" is a bit of a laugh, really -- spending money on confirming that the shot is still there on the drive (and hasn't been corrupted in the thousand ways possible) would seem to me to be some form of hypocrisy. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From vinny at cineworks.com Fri Jun 12 17:18:02 2009 From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:18:02 -0400 Subject: [Tig] QC Reports For R3D Files References: Message-ID: Shows that a proven workflow will always hold up. I thought shooting RED meant you didn't have to deal with evil labs & post professionals:-) Vincent Hogan President Cineworks Digital Studios, Inc. www.cineworks.com http://www.imdb.com/company/co0189980/ From NJK at cbsnews.com Fri Jun 12 17:36:13 2009 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:36:13 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0C9C38AE-2047-456D-A4D9-7D7F3F667EE4@colorist.org> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com><0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <0C9C38AE-2047-456D-A4D9-7D7F3F667EE4@colorist.org> Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F266558@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> On Jun 12, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > I find a lot to agree with in your observations. Why is it > that the stampeding horde jumps on a particular stylistic > bandwagon, at the > expense of originality?. May I remind you of the American comedian Fred Allen's observation that "television is the sincerest form of imitation"? Neal Kassner Colorist CBS News/NY From vinny at cineworks.com Fri Jun 12 18:16:16 2009 From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:16:16 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <42271B00-0319-4D8C-A68C-E198EA19BFE4@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: Joe Owens wrote: >The idea of a "Neg Report" is a bit of a laugh, really -- spending money on confirming that the shot is still there on the drive (and hasn't been corrupted >in the thousand ways possible) would seem to me to be some form of hypocrisy. Not really, consider the eye's on the set or in an editorial dept. QC'ing the images, most are just not qualified. For a feature film your not only verifying the data but your screening for soft focus,flag's in a shot, crew in a shot,spot's on a lens, flares, vibration from certain camera mounts, dead pixels and on and on. This is what professionals have been doing in lab & post facilities for years, I just don't see it being done the right way on a set or in an editing department. Many of my film DP friends would just rather work the way they always have worked with film, have a trusted eye on your footage back at the lab/post facility and have them put a basic dailies correction to all the footage, most tell me they have no idea what they are actually getting on the set, what monitoring equipment, what LUT's, who's LUT and on and on and quite frankly they don't want to deal with it. Regards, Vincent Hogan President Cineworks Digital Studios, Inc. www.cineworks.com http://www.imdb.com/company/co0189980/ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: The information contained in this transmission may be privileged and confidential information, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error and then delete it. Thank you. From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 12 20:15:36 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:15:36 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: session direction References: Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: Kevin Shaw > Date: June 11, 2009 1:46:43 PM GMT-03:00 > To: Rob Lingelbach > Subject: Re: [Tig] session direction > > It is my belief that the dilemma you describe (and other similar > ones) can > be addressed with theory/knowledge/experience as well as intuition. > > In The Art of Color by Johannes Itten he says > “Doctrines and theories are best for weaker moments. In moments of > strength, > problems are solved intuitively” > > I am running a course in London on July 8-10 called “Colorist > Strategies” [admin note: please see the TIG calendar for more information] > > Kevin Shaw kevs at finalcolor.com > colorist, instructor and consultant > www.finalcolor.com www.icolorist.com -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 12 20:29:00 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:29:00 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: session direction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0858FC1C-A8DD-4DFB-9BAC-1C46C0BB679C@colorist.org> On Jun 12, 2009, at 4:15 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: >> It is my belief that the dilemma you describe (and other similar >> ones) can >> be addressed with theory/knowledge/experience as well as intuition. >> >> In The Art of Color by Johannes Itten he says >> “Doctrines and theories are best for weaker moments. In moments of >> strength, >> problems are solved intuitively” There are a few ways to interpret how you mean _intuition_, but if it's by referring to action rather than discussion and theory, then I know just what you mean, and it works most of the time. There are also times when you need to reset by either of or both of two ways: break the session and talk about the idea; or, hit the reset button and do your own grade, without further discussion. There have been so many times that the second mode completely saves the session, and makes everyone happy, that I revert to it often. I used to think that ("oh man, gotta start over!") it was a kind of loss, but what happens in so many sessions is that the client directs the grading in such a specific way to start with, that certain feelings are lost (e.g. 'let's mask the left side, and the upper right corner') before the work as a whole is considered. That's where having a colorist with experience makes a big difference. As long as the experience includes an open mind. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From simonastbury at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 01:20:11 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:20:11 +0000 Subject: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having had a long time in the company of this system I would like to give a truly balanced opinion, I wouldn't want to give bad points to all and sundry. We all know what the bad points of Color, Pogle, lustre, Da Vinci etc are. I feel a "new" system needs a break and off list is the best way to do this. > From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk > To: simonastbury at hotmail.com; kanshaa at wanadoo.fr; tig at colorist.org > Subject: RE: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:30:49 +0100 > > Why off list ?? > _________________________________________________________________ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ From filmcolourist at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 05:02:02 2009 From: filmcolourist at gmail.com (David Gibson) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:02:02 +1200 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> On 12/06/2009, at 23:20 , Adrian Thomas wrote: > So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look of > unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? No. That is your suggestion and contextual leap, I have not mentioned anything about "fashionable" grades, if anything I am partial to the antithesis of this approach. David Gibson Senior Colourist DigiPost Auckland New Zealand filmcolourist at gmail.com From simonastbury at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 15:40:10 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:40:10 +0000 Subject: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Absolutely, but I feel that knowing older incarnation of this system probably better than anyone, apart from the designers. I could go on for ages about the good and bad points, and I am not sure whether this would present a level playing field. As it stands, it is probably the fastest non linear system out there, due to no rendering (ever) and the great EDL management tools. The Lightmaster, I believe, is able to handle all types of HD (the F-Stop couldn't).On the new version I understand there are also applications for grading direct from a SAN and also MXF imports. I have never run out of secondaries, and believe there are more in the new system. I have never been employed by Edifis but have had a working relationship with them for the last 3.5 years. As before if kanshaa needs to know more from an unbiased longterm user, contact me off list. Simon Astbury > From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk > To: simonastbury at hotmail.com; kanshaa at wanadoo.fr; tig at colorist.org > Subject: RE: [Tig] LightMaster from Edifis > Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:48:16 +0100 > > Surely, that's the idea of this forum > > Graham Collett > Visible Sprockets Ltd > www.visible-sprockets.co.uk > Sprockets(telecine) Ltd > www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ From rob at colorist.org Sat Jun 13 16:26:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:26:30 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> On Jun 13, 2009, at 1:02 AM, David Gibson wrote: > On 12/06/2009, at 23:20 , Adrian Thomas wrote: > >> So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look of >> unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? > > No. That is your suggestion and contextual leap, I have not > mentioned anything about "fashionable" grades, if anything I am > partial to the antithesis of this approach. There's a lot more to grading than a dichotomy of as-shot HD and one specific color style. The original adjectives "unmolested" and "tortured" proved a particular point that will decay into a polemic that cheapens the colorist's job, if taken too literally. -- Rob Lingelbach tig admin/founder rob at colorist.org From jason at subvoyant.com Sat Jun 13 23:05:14 2009 From: jason at subvoyant.com (Jason Cacioppo) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:05:14 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <351327d50906131505n17eb211dn8d71f366d9b521ce@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 6:07 PM, David Gibson wrote: Unfortunately, > clients get used to looking at the pretty pictures, so during the final > grade you get a lot of pressure to essentially replicate the dallies! and > trying to push the grade into a more 'creative' place is met with > resistance, I have been in post specifically for commercial spots for twenty years. The issue Mr. Gibson is referring to is and always has been exactly the pitfall we can fall into. It also happens with music, rough tyography and everything else - the official name for this phenomena is "Demo Love." Unless the director or DP is very established and influential though, film dailies or onelights or whatever you want to call them are rarely done by "A" colorists or with great care. In my experience, film dailies are usually priced by the foot so often the lab is motivated to make them in realtime. Often one will see adjustments being made during takes. For me, one of the important purposes of dailies has always been to see what is actually on the film, what is crushed, what is blown out. Specifically approximating the "look" pretty much almost never happens in dailies and I have worked on huge campaigns. There is just not the money to spend that time on ALL the footage. Even for a screening with investors (or in my case multinational advertisers ) we will conform the spot and either rough it with VFX tools or do a DI of the roughcut at a facility . When we actually finish, then we return to the R3D files. We either bring the R3D files and an edl to the session or prepare DPX sequences for the DI facility. Telecine/DI is one of the most expensive hourly services (in NY at least), the goal is always to spend as little time there and have that time highly focused on the footage actually being utilized in the final. I also stand by my position that dailies should tell you what you have to work with to some degree. Even if we are going to heavily effect a scene, make it day for night, add rain and flares from headlights and all that, we need to know what we have to work with. For my shop's workflow with R3D, which a great majority of the footage we handle now is imaged with (or phantom). we use redrushes to make 720 prores dailies with the onset look source. I don't like working with the proxies for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is each editor or assistant needs access to all the original R3D files which is a vast amount of data. Many people do use the proxies and they work fine for them. My shop is different than most boutique editorial houses in that we have an enormous amount of technology, most editing companies just don't have the computers and storage to crunch all that footage in a timely fashion.. What I see happening now around town is that production companies send the R3D camera files to vendors and have them converted to appropriate file types for the editors. During this process it is possible to do one lights on the dailies that have a look. It has taken a while but most of the telecine houses in new york are up to speed on R3D footage now. –– Full disclosure, I work with Offhollywood, but am not an owner or on payroll –– I have seen Offhollywood really step up to this need and succeed. If a three camera shoot is bringing back 4 hours of footage everyday (which happens - "why cut, its digital"), one needs an appropriate work flow and technology to accommodate the needs of the producer. Remember, the producers want to see files in the hands of the editors ready to playback on the NLE, there is no time to digitize from tapes. Anyway, I see OH providing the service both ways often - with a graded set of dailies based on DP/DIR direction or just the files appropriately formatted. It is all about budget. One of my early jobs as an assistant was cutting negative in prep for telecine sessions. I would pull selects flash to flash out of OCN flats and fill holes with leader (remember you don't EVER run negative through a synchronizer; think about that edgecode math this 19 year old drop out was doing). Anyway, then I hot spliced the selects in proper usage order into select OCN rolls and used math to make a new edl. We did this because the rank telecines just could run the film rolls that fast so the shots had to be in order; we almost always layed shots down once the grade was agreed upon and then moved on to next shot. Most film based sessions today load the selects off ocn rolls into a clipster or resolve or whatever before the client even shows up. Clients don't even know they aren't even looking at the film but doing a DI - pretty sneaky sis. One last thing: editors pet peavePlease, don't bother to late if you are going to cut the camera before the take. Its not like film, they will just be separate files, tail slates would be better than thal -- Jason Cacioppo Principal / Creative Director SUBVOYANT From rob at colorist.org Sun Jun 14 00:17:54 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:17:54 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <351327d50906131505n17eb211dn8d71f366d9b521ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <351327d50906131505n17eb211dn8d71f366d9b521ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <438C1AAF-23D5-429E-B5A5-07333E04A235@colorist.org> > > –– Full disclosure, I work with Offhollywood, but am not an owner or > on payroll –– I have seen Offhollywood really step up to this need Jason, I'm curious, does Offhollywood limit their acquisition medium to RED Cameras, and if so, why? > One of my early jobs as an assistant was cutting negative in prep for > telecine sessions. I would pull selects flash to flash out of OCN > flats and fill holes with leader (remember you don't EVER run negative > through a synchronizer; think about that edgecode math this 19 year > old drop out was doing). was this before Keycode then? The era of Feet+Frames window? There almost is an advantage to F+F in this case, makes the math a little easier, and if you're really careful in the slugging of the rolls, the only loss is time, and it's not very expensive time. > Anyway, then I hot spliced the selects in > proper usage order into select OCN rolls and used math to make a new > edl. We did this because the rank telecines just could run the film > rolls that fast so the shots had to be in order; we almost always > layed shots down once the grade was agreed upon and then moved on to > next shot. I'm not quite understanding about why the shots had to be in edit order, as we commonly, in the Rank Cintel MkIII days, were delivered a cut neg roll, flash-to-flash, that could be in any order, and often was in as-shot order, as that was faster for the neg cutter. In telecine we could shuttle the film down to a master shot for reference, then go to any other shot we wanted, and at the end of the session lay down the cut roll(s), which included the entire project. Did you have a Rank that couldn't shuttle? ( did jumpscan Ranks not have shuttle?) > Most film based sessions today load the selects off ocn > rolls into a clipster or resolve or whatever before the client even > shows up. Clients don't even know they aren't even looking at the > film but doing a DI - pretty sneaky sis. as far back as the Abekas DDRs existed- I'd guess around 1984- we were cutting spots together in telecine to preview the continuity for them; it was a lot of fun to max out the equipment available if you could do it without the client even realizing there was recording going on (during previews; as a fast-stepping colorist you could guess when the color would be approved, and also could guess pretty accurately where the ins and outs were). > One last thing: editors pet peavePlease, don't bother to late if you > are going to cut the camera before the take. Its not like film, they > will just be separate files, tail slates would be better than thal looks like something ran over the text in an unanticipated way, I'm too literal to extract the meaning from that paragraph :) Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sun Jun 14 21:30:56 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:30:56 -0300 Subject: [Tig] some wiki updates Message-ID: <0427CAE5-CE92-41B5-B9E3-354C5C8F5F23@colorist.org> there are some new wiki features, some middlingly old features that some subscribers may not know about, and some updates to various pages. There is also work currently happening on various fronts. 1) we're still looking for more input in the DaVinci History section at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Davinci_History but it could be that the data is finalized. 2) a few new Classifieds at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds 3) a few new facilities at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/FacilityTable and if your facility isn't listed, and/or you need some help posting it, let me know and I'll be happy to do the formatting on the wiki for you at no charge. 4) the Calendar is always gathering new events, check it manually or subscribe to the TIG wiki RSS feed. Calendar at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main RSS feed info on the Main Page. 5) we can always use input for the History of TV/Telecine section, the Reference Links, the Photo Albums, etc. See the wiki NavBar on the left side. 6) New feature updated monthly: Posting Statistics for the mailinglist, see the wiki SideBar. 7) Recent Changes http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Special:RecentChanges is where you can check manually for updates to the wiki, though you can use the RSS feed on this link to be informed automatically, easily. 8) Archives, as always, searchable, for 18 years of TIG archives. They get moldy if they aren't used. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Jun 14 23:18:34 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:18:34 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <438C1AAF-23D5-429E-B5A5-07333E04A235@colorist.org> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <351327d50906131505n17eb211dn8d71f366d9b521ce@mail.gmail.com> <438C1AAF-23D5-429E-B5A5-07333E04A235@colorist.org> Message-ID: <5ata35pef1kn1068fcb1acqg48m35q1ade@4ax.com> >> One last thing: editors pet peavePlease, don't bother to late if you >> are going to cut the camera before the take. Its not like film, they >> will just be separate files, tail slates would be better than thal > >looks like something ran over the text in an unanticipated way, I'm too >literal to extract the meaning from that paragraph :) I think he meant "please don't bother to PRE-Slate if you are going to cut the camera before the take." This is a film holdover insanity that is just IMPOSSIBLE to get people who worked on film to stop doing on set. They are so used to sneaking the slate in before the take that no amount of begging or threatening can get them to stop doing it. I usually point it out as an example when I'm having friendly conversations over a beer about how people who used to shoot a lot of film adapt to working with new technology. It just generates a separate file when done on file-based systems, and is therefore as close to useless as you can get. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Sun Jun 14 23:49:05 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:49:05 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Out of phase light OK on film? References: Message-ID: <92CC82C3-53BE-4512-BF11-7A97C614CD3A@colorist.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: Lars Lundeberg > Date: June 14, 2009 7:45:19 PM GMT-03:00 > To: > Subject: RE: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? > > Just want to thank everybody for taking the time to answer and share > knowledge on how those light beams > (and radio) behave in contact with film and CCD:s. And thanks to > Peter Swinson for a posting on the thread: "On > the tonal distribution of film grain" (6/6) It was the intriguing > description of a few photons lighting up a > grain, that got me going. > > Thanks for links and to Frank Hellmann for reminding about the > double-slit experiment. I´d forgotten about that. The fact > that it shows black lines proves (I guess) that cancelled out beams, > gets "killed" in the process, and cannot bounce back to the eye. I > ´ve always thought opposing waves just couldn´t be measured, but > continued unscaved. Thus the idea that film might be able to react > to identical opposing forces. > > In real life various waves of light, radio, gravitation,.. cross > each other, seemingly, without interference. Because further away > the same signals are never affected. Or are they? Einstein > calculated the gravitaion of Black Holes to be strong enough to > affect light. Which was later observed as light can bend when > passing a Black Hole. > > Lars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: rob at colorist.org > > To: tig at colorist.org > > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:26:23 -0300 > > Subject: Re: [Tig] Out of phase light OK on film? > > > > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > > 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 > > Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. > > ==== > > > > > > > > On Jun 9, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Jim Houston wrote: > > > Consider the basics, the > > > wavelength of radio waves is in the 10s of meters (and antenna > > > only catch a fraction of the full wavelength). So antenna can be > > > effected > > > by interference patterns of various powered (amplified) radio > waves > > > that > > > are longer than the size of the antenna. > > > > well actually there are many frequency bands that have full or > > multiple-wavelength > > antennas at RF. These can be the best antennas due to their gain. I > > lived for a > > while right below a radio amateur in the Hollywood Hills who had > > Beverage Antennas > > 2 wavelengths long in 15, 20, and 40 meter bands. You couldn't even > > see the > > antennas as they were longwires supported by poles at the edge of > his > > large, flat > > property, circling the edge. > > > > > Light has wavelengths measured in the 100s of nanometers. > > > (.0000001 meters). If a CCD was built where each pixel was a > > > fraction of the > > > wavelength of light, it would have very strong interference > effects. > > > Both film and CCDs capture light at a size that is a million times > > > larger than the photon. If you had a radio antenna that was > > > 1 million meters long, you wouldn't be worrying about multipath > > > and interference effects. > > > > there are LF antennas that would surprise you with their length, in > > being many miles > > long, but the characteristics of those wavelengths are about as > > different as they could > > be, in comparison to light. > > > > -- > > Rob Lingelbach > > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > http://reels.colorist.org > > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adrian at autotv.co.uk Mon Jun 15 12:19:28 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:19:28 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> Message-ID: <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> On 13 Jun 2009, at 16:26, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > > On Jun 13, 2009, at 1:02 AM, David Gibson wrote: > >> On 12/06/2009, at 23:20 , Adrian Thomas wrote: >> >>> So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look >>> of unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? >> >> No. That is your suggestion and contextual leap, I have not >> mentioned anything about "fashionable" grades, if anything I am >> partial to the antithesis of this approach. > > There's a lot more to grading than a dichotomy of as-shot HD and > one specific color style. The original adjectives "unmolested" > and "tortured" proved a particular point that will decay into a > polemic that cheapens the colorist's job, if taken too literally. > Absolutely, and I'm sorry if I came on a bit strong. I suspect that most of the poor grades one sees have never actually been near an experienced colourist and have, rather, been applied during on-line editing. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From bob at bluescreen.com Mon Jun 15 16:55:15 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:55:15 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> >I suspect that most of the poor grades one sees have never actually been near an >experienced colourist and have, rather, been applied during on-line editing. Please. EVERYONE'S a colorist now. Just like everyone's an editor now. And a data wrangler. And even a cinematographer, if they can cough up the $17K for a RED and rent the lenses. All you need to do is buy a G5 Mac equipped with Color or Speed Grade and Final Cut, and you're on your way to post production bliss. No need for actual training, or experience, or even a waveform or decently calibrated monitor. Just buying the hardware is enough. Many non-feature digital projects are now a Do-It-Yourself extravaganza. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From jpo at prestodigital.ca Mon Jun 15 17:11:42 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:11:42 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> Message-ID: <98191AD2-9B07-4040-8433-EDC32954A4BF@prestodigital.ca> > > All you need to do is buy a G5 Mac equipped with Color or Speed > Grade and > Final Cut, and you're on your way to post production bliss. Not quite correct. It has to be an Intel MacPro.... RED doesn't work on G5's. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From Stn3 at aol.com Mon Jun 15 18:41:21 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:41:21 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com><0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk><1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com><8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: It may be true that some people don't know or care, but those that do are the ones that write angry letters. What's wrong with a nice even correction? The history of our business is littered with film makers that made the decision to go with an outlandish stylized look, and lived to regret the decision. Just read what Joshua Logan had to say about the use of color filters during musical selections in South Pacific. This goes down as perhaps one of the greatest "mistakes" in film making history. The worst part is that he was told the effect could be removed if he didn't like it. Well, he didn't, and it couldn't. Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Thomas Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:19 AM To: Rob Lingelbach Cc: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] Onelights on Red Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== >> On 12/06/2009, at 23:20 , Adrian Thomas wrote: >> >>> So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look >>> of unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? From bob at bluescreen.com Mon Jun 15 20:26:38 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:26:38 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: >So are you suggesting that most people actually prefer the look of >unmolested HD to that of a tortured, fashionable 'grade'? I'd be >surprised if I weren't one of them. Despite what many DPs want people to believe, let's keep in mind that there is a VAST difference between the way much HD is shot, where the camera is pulled out of its box with the rental company's or manufacturer's pathetic "vanilla" setup, and using a camera that has been properly set up by a knowledgeable video person. >My latest bête noire is the tilt-shift lens effect. Aaargh! We had a >beautiful bit of DSLR timelapse in recently that had been completely >ruined by using TS on EVERY shot. Was there ever a more pathetic example of "I'm out of creative ideas. Let's do something visually jarring!" than the Tilt and Shift lens? Just utter absolute low rent crap. But visually jarring for sure. I was on a big shoot a few weeks ago where we used them to turn a $150,000 F23/SRW-1 camera into the quality of upconverted DVCam with an old dirty Coke bottle for a lens. Just lovely. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Mon Jun 15 20:06:39 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:06:39 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com><0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk><1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com><8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:41 PM, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > What's wrong with a nice even correction? The history of our > business is > littered with film makers that made the decision to go with an > outlandish > stylized look, and lived to regret the decision. the best looks are those that stand the test of time, imho. Can anyone regret the decisions made by Jacques Tourneur, Alfred Hitchcock. > Just read what Joshua Logan > had to say about the use of color filters during musical selections > in South > Pacific. This goes down as perhaps one of the greatest "mistakes" in > film > making history. The worst part is that he was told the effect could be > removed if he didn't like it. Well, he didn't, and it couldn't. That was Technicolor, wasn't it? is there a source on the web telling that specific story? The stories of decisions that later appeared 'forced' fill the books written about film production. I think one advantage commercials have is that since their life is fixed, they can withstand more experimentation than features. And then there are music videos. Sometimes a mistake can be inadvertent and not a complete disaster, as happened during the lab work on _Heaven's_Gate_ when one of the color records was lost for an entire roll, which then had to become sepia. Luckily, as I recall, it included a long dance sequence that was not totally wrong in being different than the rest of the film. It's possible that the roll in question only appeared in the long version of the film, not in the initial release, I forget. David Martin, with whom I worked on some MGM titles many years ago, knows that whole story, as does Steven Bradford. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cml at iridas.com Mon Jun 15 22:07:38 2009 From: cml at iridas.com (Lin Sebastian Kayser) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:07:38 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> Message-ID: <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> Hi Bob, > All you need to do is buy a G5 Mac equipped with Color or Speed Grade and Is this so? Is there really an inflation of bad colorists using Color and SpeedGrade? I don't see many "Color" colorists around. I see a few people using Final Cut, who give movies that would have gotten little or no grading a quick run through Color, but I'd say, this is usually an improvement. If they start being serious about color grading, they usually move on. As for SpeedGrade, it's interesting that you mention a tool that costs at minimum 20K and more often 45K USD plus at least 20-80K in hardware in the same breath as a tool that you essentially get for free. Do you know one single example of a SpeedGrade artist who is not a remarkably talented individual? I don't and I think I still know most of our customers. A seat of SpeedGrade is a significant investment in terms of both software and hardware. It's not something you do if you don't have the skills to make it work. I have seen a lot of material that was "downgraded" by high-profile post houses after a pre-grade in SpeedGrade. There are many highly talented people out there, which tools they choose is not something you should use as judgment of their skills. As for the inflation of bad colorists - I've heard that argument over and over again in different industries. Broadening the appeal of a technology improves it for everyone, especially the professionals. Think about Desktop Publishing in the early 90s and think about what professionals could do before DTP (obscure proprietary systems) and what they can do now that all the tools are accessible to everyone. Do you really think the quality of colorists would improve if we were not there? Cheers, Lin ________________________________________ Lin Sebastian Kayser - CEO - IRIDAS From owen at ywwg.com Mon Jun 15 22:11:19 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:11:19 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> Message-ID: <1245100279.3562.64.camel@ywwg> On Mon, 2009-06-15 at 08:55 -0700, Bob Kertesz wrote: > Please. EVERYONE'S a colorist now. Just like everyone's an editor now. And a > data wrangler. And even a cinematographer, if they can cough up the $17K for a > RED and rent the lenses. > > All you need to do is buy a G5 Mac equipped with Color or Speed Grade and > Final Cut, and you're on your way to post production bliss. No need for actual > training, or experience, or even a waveform or decently calibrated monitor. > Just buying the hardware is enough. > > Many non-feature digital projects are now a Do-It-Yourself extravaganza. I think the existence of Color has been good for colorists overall. Now, more people think of color grading as an important part of post, or are aware of colorists at all. When I started on as an assistant, I didn't even know that color correction existed as a specialty. Now, everyone who has tried to launch Color (and backed away from the UI in horror) knows that color correction is a discipline for which *entire applications* have been written. Also, I find it takes about 5 minutes for a color-novice director to realize the difference between the little color adjustments they made, and what a real colorist can do. The DIY projects will flourish, and they'll all have a Magic Bullet Looks presets slapped on top, but that's just the way it goes. The existence of crappy product makes your product look better by comparison! owen -- Online Editor / Colorist Rockhopper Post Production www.rockhopperpost.com From ahforums at iris-digital.org Tue Jun 16 01:29:40 2009 From: ahforums at iris-digital.org (ahforums at iris-digital.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:29:40 +1000 Subject: [Tig] DCP ex DCDM title color query Message-ID: Hi, We have been testing DCDM and DCP creation and workflow and have come across a quandary in relation to a particular set of end roller credits created with a bold Red font. While the rest of the films content translated beautifully from our DCDM master the Red colored end credit roller had a bad color artifacting. The result was that the edges of the Red text against a black BG had grey or white vertical fringes. The fringes did not twitter with the roller but stayed in sync with the roll. It looks like a jpeg color compression artifact. Is this a limitation of the jpeg 200 compression? Adrian Hauser Digital Film Colorist Cutting Edge EQ Sydney (All Things Color For Film and Digital Cinema) iris-digital.org From bob at bluescreen.com Mon Jun 15 22:52:07 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:52:07 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> Message-ID: <2efd3551sth2k1j11h4pusul7dftu8iko1@4ax.com> >As for SpeedGrade, it's interesting that you mention a tool that costs at >minimum 20K and more often 45K USD plus at least 20-80K in hardware in the >same breath as a tool that you essentially get for free. Sorry, I should have been more specific, and said SpeedGrade Onset, which I believe is around $300-$500 for a license, and doesn't require much hardware to run. >Think about Desktop Publishing in the early 90s and think about what professionals could do >before DTP (obscure proprietary systems) and what they can do now that all >the tools are accessible to everyone. Interesting you should bring that up. I was peripherally involved in that industry when all that wonderful software launched. The advent of desktop publishing did ease the burden of well trained professionals somewhat. But it also unleashed upon the world some of the worst examples of design anyone could possibly imagine. Who the hell needed an artist with training, a well balanced eye, and design sense and taste when any idiot could buy a program with built-in templates and WYSIWYG which allowed anyone (and I mean ANYONE) to generate some of the most hopeless crap that ever came out of that industry. People who had been doing that sort of work for decades were forced into retirement or to look for other careers when every secretary at small and mid-sized firms was suddenly designing some of the most god-awful logos, brochures, and stationery in the history of mankind. Sure, the really top people survived and even prospered, but the vast "middle class" in graphic design, the companies and the people who designed logos and stationery and corporate identities for smaller the non-Fortune 500 firms were decimated, and never really recovered. Any of this starting to sound familiar to the people on this list? >Do you really think the quality of colorists would improve if we were not there? No, and that was not the point of my post. The point of my post was that, just as a lot of people bought (or stole) a copy of PageMaker and declared themselves graphic designers when they were untrained and hopelessly bad at it, it takes more than software and a declaration of intent to make a good colorist. Much more. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Mon Jun 15 23:14:38 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:14:38 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <1245100279.3562.64.camel@ywwg> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <1245100279.3562.64.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: <4A36C7CE.90709@free.fr> There is certainly a move in this business that is, as Lin described, quite close to what happened in DTP or sound recording. There are good things to it: people get sensibilized to the existence, value added and interest of colour grading, there are a lot of talented people that can step into it without having to wait 3 years changing film rolls, there is no more to learn signal processing to do a gamma change. On the other side, we might argue on the fact that people who are less trained might let go technical problems, or tend to do it the easy way with fashion contrast/desat/hue of the month and presets and less understanding on how a picture is built. We even face the same kind of disinformation on forums, urban legends (we suffer less from the vintage and tube warmth effect, but a friend of mine told me that the RED stuff brought back on the market a lot of old lenses nobody would use anymore... so it's pretty much the same :D) Though as opposed to sound, there is a huge technical and method change we face with digital acquisition and mastering that forces people to get into colour management, but it doesn't have to be at the artist level. I guess that exactly the same way as we suffer bad audio engineering with over compressed and clipping CDs on a large share of the pop market and still find properly mixed and mastered records by talented engineers, there will be a majority of overcooked shows that will hurt the eyes. At the end of the day there is still the same share of talented people in the crowd... Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France From cemoz101 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 22:40:24 2009 From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> Message-ID: <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Lin, I think what Bob might be trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) is that there is more to being a colourist than slapping a look to some footage on a piece of software. That being a colourist, or an editor, or cinematographer is not just about knowing how to 'colour correct', or edit two shots together or light a basic scene ... So many dynamics and parameters are involved in all of our disciplines, starting from budgets, clients, material, time, knowing different technologies and equipment, managing and knowing workflows and these are things that you cannot learn in front of a G5 Mac with which ever piece of software, or an Avid that is installed on your laptop at home ... My tuppence worth ... Cem Ozkilicci Freelance Colourist ----- Original Message ---- From: Lin Sebastian Kayser To: Bob Kertesz ; Telecine Internet Group Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:07:38 AM Subject: Re: [Tig] Onelights on Red Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 Photo-Sonics supports the TIG. ==== Hi Bob, > All you need to do is buy a G5 Mac equipped with Color or Speed Grade and Is this so? Is there really an inflation of bad colorists using Color and SpeedGrade? I don't see many "Color" colorists around. I see a few people using Final Cut, who give movies that would have gotten little or no grading a quick run through Color, but I'd say, this is usually an improvement. If they start being serious about color grading, they usually move on. As for SpeedGrade, it's interesting that you mention a tool that costs at minimum 20K and more often 45K USD plus at least 20-80K in hardware in the same breath as a tool that you essentially get for free. Do you know one single example of a SpeedGrade artist who is not a remarkably talented individual? I don't and I think I still know most of our customers. A seat of SpeedGrade is a significant investment in terms of both software and hardware. It's not something you do if you don't have the skills to make it work. I have seen a lot of material that was "downgraded" by high-profile post houses after a pre-grade in SpeedGrade. There are many highly talented people out there, which tools they choose is not something you should use as judgment of their skills. As for the inflation of bad colorists - I've heard that argument over and over again in different industries. Broadening the appeal of a technology improves it for everyone, especially the professionals. Think about Desktop Publishing in the early 90s and think about what professionals could do before DTP (obscure proprietary systems) and what they can do now that all the tools are accessible to everyone. Do you really think the quality of colorists would improve if we were not there? Cheers, Lin ________________________________________ Lin Sebastian Kayser - CEO - IRIDAS _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 __________________________________________________________________ The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier. Optimized for Yahoo! Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/ From bradford at seanet.com Tue Jun 16 05:07:05 2009 From: bradford at seanet.com (Steven Bradford) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:07:05 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com><0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk><1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com><8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <0DCB974B-87B8-4C56-9A0B-12E220687F19@seanet.com> Yes, this is what I remember being told when that first long version was going through telecine for it's first release to cable. IIRC the sequence of events was The first nearly four hour version was realeased to jeers and catcalls, and UA collapsed. This was at the beginning of the concern over fading color negatives, and Cimino had enough pull before everything fell apart to demand that b&w separations be made of the film. The original negative was cut into a two hour and then a 90 minute version? At this point the only negative of the long version were the separations. The film was sold to cable, but because of the controversy and notoriety of the film, and the fact that very few people ever had a chance to see the long version before it was pulled from theaters, they all wanted the long version. So a new internegative was made from the separations of the long version. When this was done, it was discovered that one reel consisted of only three blue records. Fortunately all but the very opening of this reel took place in the skating rink, which was illuminated primarily by light through a beige canvas tent, and hence was very sepia looking already. Plus they shot it with a lot of fuller's earth in the air for effect. So it was made sepia and wasn't too noticeable. That's the way I remember hearing the story as a lowly tape op. I think I've seen the long version a couple of dozen times at least. We also added subtitles. I saw it in the theatre originally, and it was impossible to understand what the characters were saying half the time, the mix was so dense. I'll bet David remembers the story better, it 'd be great if somebody could truly confirm it. I suppose if you could find a tape or DVD of the Long version that would confirm it, as there was a short exterior that was laso affected. Steven Bradford Seattle Washington http://www.seanet.com/~bradford/ On Jun 15, 2009, at 12:06 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > Sometimes a mistake can be inadvertent and not a complete disaster, > as happened during the > lab work on _Heaven's_Gate_ when one of the color records was lost > for an entire > roll, which then had to become sepia. Luckily, as I recall, it > included a long dance > sequence that was not totally wrong in being different than the rest > of the film. It's > possible that the roll in question only appeared in the long version > of the film, not in the > initial release, I forget. David Martin, with whom I worked on some > MGM titles many years > ago, knows that whole story, as does Steven Bradford. > > > -- Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > From rob at colorist.org Tue Jun 16 05:03:07 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:03:07 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0AA0BBD1-8262-41AE-B254-680BCD2DD8B8@colorist.org> On Jun 15, 2009, at 6:40 PM, Cem Ozkilicci wrote: > I think what Bob might be trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) is > that there is more to being a colourist than slapping a look to some > footage on a piece of software. That being a colourist, or an > editor, or cinematographer is not just about knowing how to 'colour > correct', or edit two shots together or light a basic scene ... > > So many dynamics and parameters are involved in all of our > disciplines, There's a tendency I see on the horizon that is a bit worrying as well: an inclination toward learning the art, style, technique of grading from the software itself, rather than from your own hands. It's similar to what happened initially when keyboard synthesizers appeared, and novice keyboardists found themselves caught up in non-realtime programming, at the expense of the music. And self-taught musicians never learned how to work in an ensemble, listening and responding. The colorist who has spent time - years- assisting in sessions with other colorists, or editors, and senses the rapport, the response of client and artist to each other, and absorbs and then selects or deselects those approaches he or she wants to use.. there's so much to this process that can't be learned except by watching and participating. When a DoP, Director, and Colorist are working in that sensory sync that, halfway or so through the session, makes everyone feel light and coolly efficient at the peak of creativity, is really hard to find in other professions. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Jun 16 05:54:32 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:54:32 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Heaven's Gate (was: Re: Onelights on Red) In-Reply-To: <0DCB974B-87B8-4C56-9A0B-12E220687F19@seanet.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com><0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk><1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com><8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <0DCB974B-87B8-4C56-9A0B-12E220687F19@seanet.com> Message-ID: <5AF8C8BF-F00A-4862-B84C-3B4A15A57014@colorist.org> On Jun 16, 2009, at 1:07 AM, Steven Bradford wrote: > Yes, this is what I remember being told when that first long version > was going through telecine for it's first release to cable. IIRC the > sequence of events was > The first nearly four hour version was realeased to jeers and > catcalls, and UA collapsed. see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080855/trivia for some interesting notes. according to these notes, the original cut was 5 hours 25 minutes. 1.5 million feet of film was used. Over a million feet were processed in labs. If they were using 1000 foot rolls, that's 1000 rolls of 1000 feet, or roughly 183 hours (if I'm not mistaken) or almost 8 days and nights of running the camera without stopping. I didn't realize, though I too saw the film many times, that Ronnie Hawkins played Major Wolcott, Hawkins of Levon and the Hawks fame (precursor group to The Band). there are some other legends about this film, one of which is that the reason Kris K. is sniffling throughout the film has nothing to do with the cold weather in Montana. I've read the book about the production, _Final_Cut_ by Steven Bach, and it's fascinating. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Jun 16 06:22:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:22:35 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0AA0BBD1-8262-41AE-B254-680BCD2DD8B8@colorist.org> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <0AA0BBD1-8262-41AE-B254-680BCD2DD8B8@colorist.org> Message-ID: <558B3FE4-0B64-41E0-9B13-9BEE01BEE813@colorist.org> the line about self-taught musicians was an error in editing the syntax of the sentence, apologies to all self-taught and auto-reliant artists. On Jun 16, 2009, at 1:03 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > novice keyboardists found themselves caught up in non-realtime > programming, at the expense of the music. And self-taught musicians > never learned how to work in an ensemble, listening and responding. > The colorist who has spent time - years- assisting in sessions with -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From azoghbi at m-wheels.com Tue Jun 16 17:15:16 2009 From: azoghbi at m-wheels.com (Ahmed El Zoghbi) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:15:16 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Restoration of old videotapes Message-ID: <003801c9ee9d$a561dc60$f0259520$@com> Hi, We are currently working with a major TV station which owns a huge content on old tape (starting 1959), a collection of 2", 1", U-matic, 35mm Negative and positive, and others. The library is not in good condition and they want to capture whatever they can save in a digital format, restore it and save it again in a media they can retrieve later after a long period. One of the major problems they are faced with, is the unavailability of the Players. Other problems are the state of the tapes, some of them have the sticky syndrome and others have tracking problems. Can anybody help with finding players, or with advise what systems can help with the problems they face, like ovens, cleaners, physical handling, restoration, storage, etc..? We realize the problems we face are major, but at least we have to start now to save what we can save. Thanks Ahmed From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Jun 16 15:35:25 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:35:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] DCP ex DCDM title color query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jun 2009, ahforums at iris-digital.org wrote: > > While the rest of the films content translated beautifully from our DCDM > master the Red colored end credit roller > had a bad color artifacting. The result was that the edges of the Red text > against a black BG had grey or white vertical fringes. > The fringes did not twitter with the roller but stayed in sync with the roll. > It looks like a jpeg color compression artifact. > > Is this a limitation of the jpeg 200 compression? This sounds like a software bug to me. Can you share which software you are using? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at cinelab.com Tue Jun 16 17:37:15 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 12:37:15 -0400 Subject: [Tig] CSI Miami ??? Message-ID: <36F87B50-D17B-48A3-B047-C45C9F9157F1@cinelab.com> Hi I was in a rare moment last night and watched some network broadcast tv in HD on my 720P projector (105" screen) it was CSI Miami and I was just wondering WTF happened. I know the show is pap but at least it seemed to look good creatively in the past despite the script. What I saw was nasty blown out green/yellow highlights lots of wonky fake synthetic camera flares bad skin tone and day for night "flashback" scenes with terrible fake grain and bad fringing, etc. I thought this show was at least supposed to look good. Is it F23 or similar now? some aerials still looked like 35mm but the rest...... is it a bbc product now? -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From sai at efxmagic.com Tue Jun 16 18:53:08 2009 From: sai at efxmagic.com (Sai) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:53:08 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Colorist required on full time. Message-ID: <308419800-1245174779-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1254652795-@bxe1006.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Hello, We are the Prasad Group (EFX / Prasad Film Lab) located in several cities in india. We need to fill the poisition of a creative colorist to work with us establishing a high end TVC telecine (both film and data) for the domestic markets in india. At times the colorist may also work on select DI projects We will be competing with several expat colorists working in competing companies. Our services will include scanning on a Spirit 4K with options, in SD/HD/Data / 2K data /4K data. The Gear is the Spirit4K, DaVinci 2K'+ With disk storage and hdcam SR and ddr's to record. LTO - 4's are also availa le. JVC projector based grading and I would love to see the unit come down staright into our facility. Trulight monitored dispay system. Hope this gives some info, and if there is anything else you need to ask, please free to ask. Thank you, -sai Saiprasad www.Efxmagic.com 28,Arunachalam Road Chennai Sai Prasad Prasad Corporation 28, Arunachalam Road, Saligramam, Chennai India - 600093 From NJK at cbsnews.com Tue Jun 16 19:50:27 2009 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:50:27 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Console Design Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> How much say do colorists have regarding equipment layout in the suites they work in, not counting owner/operator boutique operations? Number and type of scopes along with their placement, keyboard panels in a straight line or fanned out, grading monitor height and distance, things like that. Or is it more a function of the Engineering department or an architectural company that may or may not specialize in designing post facilities? I've been collecting images off the Interwebz for a few years of facilities around the world and there doesn't seem to be much standardization, unlike, say, a typical NLE setup with two GUI screens in the center and the "good" monitor off to the right. It seems to me that a comfortable work environment is crucial for long sessions, but what determines "comfort" can be very personal, i.e., one size doesn't fit all. So who makes that call? Neal Kassner Colorist CBS News/NY njk at cbsnews.com From simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk Tue Jun 16 20:26:15 2009 From: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk (Simon Burley) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:26:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Tig] DCP ex DCDM title color query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49650.195.149.48.251.1245180375.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk> On Tue, June 16, 2009 1:29 am, ahforums at iris-digital.org wrote: > While the rest of the films content translated beautifully from our > DCDM master the Red colored end credit roller > had a bad color artifacting. The result was that the edges of the Red > text against a black BG had grey or white vertical fringes. > The fringes did not twitter with the roller but stayed in sync with > the roll. It looks like a jpeg color compression artifact. Adrian, Were you viewing the DCP projected? It sounds like the second link had failed, but if it had you would have seen magenta and green fringing on neutral grade vertical edges. The hardware encoders do seem to introduce some visible artifacts - I fairly frequently see some strange things happen at the edge of the image and on credit rolls. Do you know which encoder was used? Simon -- Simon Burley RPS Film Imaging Ltd ** Please note new telephone number below ** T: +44 (0) 208 661 9900 M: +44 (0) 7702 732 655 e: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Jun 16 22:11:21 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:11:21 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <2efd3551sth2k1j11h4pusul7dftu8iko1@4ax.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <2efd3551sth2k1j11h4pusul7dftu8iko1@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3h1g35d1986bdvs4r201u8f02bpcsa2tf3@4ax.com> A couple of followup notes to my post: SpeedGrade Onset is around $800 for a license, not $300-500 as I had said. I was working from an older memory buffer that hadn't quite been flushed. Steve Crouch of Iridias called and corrected me on that point. Also, to clarify further, I was not slagging on lower end color correction tools, whether Color, SpeedGrade Onset, or anything else. They definitely serve a purpose. I was slagging on those who, with little to no previous experience to speak of, buy one of the aforementioned inexpensive tools, throw it onto some stock Mac platform, and hang out the "COLORIST" shingle. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Tue Jun 16 22:01:57 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:01:57 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <4A380845.7060507@free.fr> It's funny because I'm working on a project where I'm asked such standards and having been in quite a lot of places all around the globe I have the same feeling that it's a very personal thing, with very strong individuality! I have trained colorists coming from telecine, graphics (Avid DS, Smoke/Flame, After FX) and lab timers and even if you try to group them you don't find common grounds. The funny thing is sometimes people have to share the room and every shift comes with the bored pffff and the reshuffle of the pieces of gear. Autodesk and Quantel have been nice enough to their users to allow to move left and right which is great to the users to have transport control in the right place, it's also possible with machines using the Tangent stuff (Color, SpeedGrade, Scratch) and that's great. Then the scopes can move from left to right to void (little eyesight to some of my friends there ;-), center screen being the GUI or the program out, everything's possible and everyone really thinks his setup is the One. Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France From david at dcvideo.com Tue Jun 16 22:54:41 2009 From: david at dcvideo.com (david at dcvideo.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:54:41 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Restoration of old videotapes In-Reply-To: <003801c9ee9d$a561dc60$f0259520$@com> References: <003801c9ee9d$a561dc60$f0259520$@com> Message-ID: <20090616145441.twggujsigcggoks4@webmail.dcvideo.com> Hello Ahmed, Your concerns about saving legacy material from videotape formats such as 2", 1", & 3/4", plus 35 mm film, are shared by others also. Please contact me off list for some comments and suggestions, as the company I am associated with provides the services you apparently could use. Best Regards, David Crosthwait DC Video Archived Media Transfer and Re-mastering Services 177 West Magnolia Blvd. Burbank, CA. 91502 818-563-1073 818-563-1177 (fax) 818-285-9942 (cell) DCFWTX at AOL.COM DAVID at DCVIDEO.COM WWW.DCVIDEO.COM From ken at flight4.org Tue Jun 16 21:02:17 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Restoration of old videotapes In-Reply-To: <003801c9ee9d$a561dc60$f0259520$@com> References: <003801c9ee9d$a561dc60$f0259520$@com> Message-ID: <842244.66380.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Regarding the tapes, I can vouch for the resurfacing machines from Lipsner Smith... Did wonders for the damaged tapes that I had! Disclaimer, blah, blah Ken Robinson From rob at colorist.org Tue Jun 16 23:01:57 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:01:57 -0300 Subject: [Tig] a couple of changes Message-ID: <602360F4-CCFF-4952-801B-007C2ECB6F86@colorist.org> New photo album for TIGers: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Domesticated if you want me to upload for you a photo, no problem. Dave Tosh found the images that go with "Notes on Grain, What we See" from Peter Swinson, so they're back on the wiki, along with the discussion as it was originally presented on the mailinglist, referred to in the Technical Discussions section http://tinyurl.com/what-we-see -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From steve at veralith.com Tue Jun 16 22:19:10 2009 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:19:10 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <2D812764-C897-4604-B43A-ED6D34F393B8@veralith.com> When I was running the big new Symphony suite, we decided to make a brand new room for it and the owner and I spent the better part of a full day sitting in an empty area on a stage that was roped off to have the same dimensions as the room and we used a bunch of 2x4 "horses and plywood and cardboard, trying to determine the best way for the editor to interface with the client. We tried face to face, with slightly "submerged" editing monitors, the typical "front to back" configuration, side by side, L shaped, where would the monitors go, where would the speakers go... After we designed the "human" space for the site, then they did the engineering around that. It was the best room I ever worked in. We ended up with a kind of L shape where the client and I had separate monitors and we could both see each others' faces. That might not work so well for color correction, but it was great to be able to read the client's expressions during an edit. Not so great at hiding mine... if you know what I mean. The sound was the big issue with that set-up since we designed it so that the editor was sitting in the middle of the stereo field, but the client got more right speaker than left. No one ever complained about it though.. I was just thinking about layout of color grading spaces, because there seems to be a movement for manufacturers to do more scope displays on regular computer monitors, but most established color grading suites seem to be set up for regular rackmounted scopes. From underscan at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 22:06:22 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:06:22 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <3FEF3045-8DC1-4B22-88A8-1F085C7853B2@gmail.com> I´m wondering the same as we are about to build our own suite and i don´t know what the standard should be. so were going to build what we think works and feels best. also where to put the client? behind the operator, infront of the operator of besides? additional plasma monitors for the clients maybe? so many options. Neal, would it possible to send those pics over to have a look at for inspiration? cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Tue Jun 16 23:51:47 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:51:47 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <3FEF3045-8DC1-4B22-88A8-1F085C7853B2@gmail.com> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <3FEF3045-8DC1-4B22-88A8-1F085C7853B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A382203.3090402@free.fr> Well, you don't "put" the client, he really goes to the place he wants! Hopefully if you make a place comfy enough he would stay there. In grading sessions some DoPs can't stand not to see the buttons and GUI, some don't care and just wanna see the result. underscan at gmail.com a écrit : > > also where to put the client? Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows La Madeleine, France From ken at flight4.org Tue Jun 16 23:48:37 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <4A380845.7060507@free.fr> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <4A380845.7060507@free.fr> Message-ID: <96549.18232.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> And as a long time freelancer, I gave up worrying about where everything was in different facilities.... It would be impossible otherwise! But with that it also became impossible to design anything, because it simply didn't matter anymore.... Oh yes I have my basic preferences, but even those weren't always in the right place either! There was one place that had the Pogle layer panel mounted vertically.... Even that didn't bother me after a few mins! Maybe a Rubik Cube system would be the answer!! Two hours of set up, followed by the job! Cos I could never figure out the Rubik cube Ken Robinson Senior Colourist ________________________________ From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 17 00:16:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:16:30 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <4A382203.3090402@free.fr> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <3FEF3045-8DC1-4B22-88A8-1F085C7853B2@gmail.com> <4A382203.3090402@free.fr> Message-ID: On Jun 16, 2009, at 7:51 PM, Cedric Lejeune wrote: > Well, you don't "put" the client, he really goes to the place he > wants! Hopefully if you make a place comfy enough he would stay > there. In grading sessions some DoPs can't stand not to see the > buttons and GUI, some don't care and just wanna see the result. In New York, as many restaurants will attest, the most important aspect of a -session- is turnover, so I think having the client and colorist stand, while moving from side to side to grab this or that control or addition to a shot, all while multiple monitors are showing various stages of the work in progress, will be the evolutionary path. A Large Clock will be on the most prominent wall. As most colorists will attest, the first phrase from an entering client in NYC is invariably "Are we on the meter?" In LA, as presented to investors in a short film: Start tight on the COLORIST shingle, dolly back to see a studio in full production mode, on the last take of Heaven's Gate, studio insert shots. "Hollywood II." Designed after Universal CityWalk, everyone's favorite simulation of what a city should be like, with low admission for pedestrians but thirty dollar parking, "Hollywood II" would include Studios, Film, Slates, and actual "Edit Rooms" and "Telecine Suites" with "Consoles" and "Machine Rooms." A chef trained in France would serve lunch, clients could play the piano, use the bowling alley.... Then a tracking shot into the COLORIST shingle and on into the Telecine Suite, where the COLORIST with the comedy chops of Steve Martin and modeling the latest torn Gucci T-shirt .... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ahforums at iris-digital.org Wed Jun 17 00:44:17 2009 From: ahforums at iris-digital.org (ahforums at iris-digital.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 09:44:17 +1000 Subject: [Tig] DCP ex DCDM title color query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6639643F-BB20-4C1A-B086-BB40F3877C92@iris-digital.org> >> >> Is this a limitation of the jpeg 2000 compression? > > This sounds like a software bug to me. Can you share which software > you are using? > > Bob Hi Bob, Thanks For that, The DCP is being created at an external facility. I am currently trying to trace the source for this particular artifact. I'll find out what Hardware/Software they are using. Many thanks, Adrian Hauser From irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au Wed Jun 17 01:26:58 2009 From: irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au (Ian Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:26:58 +1000 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <3FEF3045-8DC1-4B22-88A8-1F085C7853B2@gmail.com> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <3FEF3045-8DC1-4B22-88A8-1F085C7853B2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF95161925BA2D73@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge> Mark, Try this 24" Grading 'God' monitor front and centre @ 1-1.5 meter from Colourist for HD LCD [dimmed ] below Grading Monitor for Technical RGB / waveform / audio etc monitoring, switchable for Spirit W/Forms. CC panels front, CC GUI right Telecine assistant, logging station GUI on the left [near door to Film Scanner clean area and film handling] 3 seats DOP on left [near Logger] + Space for laptop, Colourist centre, Director on Right [near CC GUI] + space for laptop. [The 'man' is always on the right] Big room behind for 3-10+ clients 'hangers on'......table/bench/seats for multiple laptops, coffee, grog, food and separate and 'different' large [pixel to pixel] Plasma/LCD for creative/framing etc decisions labelled 'preview' or some other non God monitor term. Laptop connection to Client monitor. D 6500 [as near as possible] general spot lighting, dimmable....check for reflections in grading screen] Neutral wall colours.....no fancy paintings on rear wall Neutral grey wall or drapes 1 meter behind Grading Monitor.....discretely illuminated to taste Throw in some creative furniture...no shiny chrome Stir, bake in oven for 2-3 hours, serve and enjoy Richo Sydney From carl at stopp.se Wed Jun 17 11:12:02 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:12:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Desk Layout in a Grade room Message-ID: Regarding Deks-layout in a Grade room. Well, when we built our first room the currenct senior colorist and the engineer spent a LONG time making it right. Now after 8 years it is almost unchanged. Although now we are changing monitor and Matrix-panel so we have to change the desk-layout aswell. But its a bit of a struggle. With many colorist with different experience and ideas its hard to make everybody happy. But with some meetings and manual test-changes we hope to come to a solution that everybody might not be happy with, but can at least work with. Rob: How about making a "archive"/"list" of all Grade-houses and a pic of the room/desk. Unless some people are secret about there design... it would be cool to see how different rooms look around the globe. I'll be happy to upload some stills if someone ells shares. /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 17 15:22:23 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:22:23 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Grading room photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F062F50-7CE8-4E1F-A4EB-F759C3D62311@colorist.org> On Jun 17, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Carl Skaff wrote: > Rob: > How about making a "archive"/"list" of all Grade-houses and a pic of > the room/desk. > Unless some people are secret about there design... it would be cool > to see how different rooms look around the globe. > I'll be happy to upload some stills if someone ells shares. Neal Kassner had the same idea at the same time as you. There is a Facility Table on the wiki, that can be edited by anyone, at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/FacilityTable connecting photos to it would be a simple task and a great idea. If the submitter of the photos can first place their facility info on the table, then send me photos, I'll connect them on the wiki. It can all be done by the wiki user but my experience is that people would rather I take the time. I can do the facility addition as well, if the facility isn't already on the table. so feel free to send data to me personally, would be easiest if the subject were descriptive, like the one used on this message. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Jun 17 16:07:28 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:07:28 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Console Design In-Reply-To: <96549.18232.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26655D@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> <4A380845.7060507@free.fr> <96549.18232.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0f1i35lne96tku4gl8kb17ji359pd92hur@4ax.com> >Two hours of set up, followed by the job! 90% of the jobs I've done the last 30 years were like just like that :-). Followed, of course, by 45 minutes of teardown at the end of the job. It's an interesting life. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Jun 17 21:39:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:39:34 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Photographs of Grading Rooms- database facility page Message-ID: Per the recent suggestions, a Photographs database feature is added to the Facility Table at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/FacilityTable The first Grading Suite to be added is Norsk Smalfilm's. Access the URL above and scroll down to the Norsk Smalfilm AS entry, then crawl over to the right to see the thumbnail and notes, click on the thumbnail to access the file photo in the database. This should make the Facility Table more interesting and was a great simultaneous suggestion, from Neal Kassner and Carl Skaff. The Facility Table is a little awkward in design, and will be reupholstered soon, possibly to include a master world map of locations, hopefully coded to the software/ equipment available. The coding today for the photograph thumbnails, notes, and access to the database through the user-editable facility page wasn't a trivial task, and as always, please note that the TIG is supported by user contributions, there is a paypal button on the main wiki page. Thank you. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From mohit at qlab.in Wed Jun 17 22:00:10 2009 From: mohit at qlab.in (Mohit Shetty) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:30:10 +0530 Subject: [Tig] Aaton Keylink Problem: Please advise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi All, Our Aaton Keylink decided to suddenly freeze.....following are the symptoms: The Blue Circle supposed to indicate biphase input does not move and the white dot is stationery at the bottom... But we have tried the following: 1. removed and reseated the MTC card 2. changed the biphase cable from telecine to Aaton, yet no response 3. changed another biphase port/sepmag port and connected to Aaton, yet no response...while this sepmag port provides biphase to the Sondor Follower which is running in perfect sync, indicating that biphase output from Telecine is normal and could be normal from the regular biphase connection to the Aaton..there is one more Editor OUT providing biphase from the Shadow..checked this out..even this shows no response in the Aaton... 4. The Aaton Cameras switch on initially(RED LEDs come ON) but go OFF after a while...and you cannot check head calibration as there is no display in the Camera window... 5. The large centre remains RED while the circle around it(think green) has its dot revolving around, while the outer ring(blue) is immobile.. Any assistance welcome....Thanks in advance.... best regards, Mohit ------------------------- Mohit M. Shetty M/s Quality Cine Labs Pvt Ltd., QLAB, A-17, Veera Desai Industrial Area Andheri(W), Mumbai - 400 053, INDIA tel: +91-22-26741693/4/5 fax: +91-22-26735780 & +91-22-26734867 cel: +91-9821010428 web: www.qlab.in From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Jun 17 23:32:05 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:32:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] DCP ex DCDM title color query In-Reply-To: <6639643F-BB20-4C1A-B086-BB40F3877C92@iris-digital.org> References: <6639643F-BB20-4C1A-B086-BB40F3877C92@iris-digital.org> Message-ID: > Hi Bob, > Thanks For that, The DCP is being created at an external facility. I am > currently trying to trace > the source for this particular artifact. Are you able to post an image showing just the region of an artifact so we can see what it looks like? > I'll find out what Hardware/Software they are using. Pay attention to if YCbCr is somehow used in the mastering process. Sometimes errors in YCbCr translation can cause ugly problems which show up in titles and text, but not in most of the rest of the work. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From cml at iridas.com Wed Jun 17 23:27:16 2009 From: cml at iridas.com (Lin Sebastian Kayser) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:27:16 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004601c9ef9a$c7847ac0$568d7040$@com> Hi Cem, there is no doubt that some of the most important skills of a good colorist have nothing to do with color and everything with psychology. And there's also no doubt that much of the workflow experience you need these days can best be acquired at an established facility. There are, however, increasingly examples of talented individuals who create new workflows using relatively simple setups. There are also examples of traditional houses and colorists who are struggling to come to terms with new ideas, because they are locked into high-value equipment that needs to be paid off (tape machines, for example). Where Bob and I disagree is: I don't see a wave of cheap labor sweeping the established standards down the drain. I see the widening of the market as a way to tap into the skill set of extraordinarily talented people who, 3 years ago, didn't even know what a colorist does. For example, I've seen a number of DPs-come-colorists who have an incredible eye, great "soft skills" and an intimate knowledge about the workflow. If the world were still dominated by half million dollar color grading systems, we would not have seen some of their great work. Cheers, Lin From bob at bluescreen.com Thu Jun 18 00:11:55 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:11:55 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <004601c9ef9a$c7847ac0$568d7040$@com> References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004601c9ef9a$c7847ac0$568d7040$@com> Message-ID: >Where Bob and I disagree is: I don't see a wave of cheap labor sweeping the >established standards down the drain. Whereas I, having already experienced the first tidal wave of mass incompetence in the production area brought about by the advent of cheap cameras, which inevitably beget cheap inexperienced crews, bad lighting, and incompetent editing by a friend of one of the production assistants working for a flat rate from his Mom's basement, know what is possible in that regard. Sure, there's the occasional breakout bright light who might not have otherwise been given the opportunity to share his or her vision. I submit that is the rare exception. For the most part, once you get a cheap tool to do a project, everyone and everything else about that job sinks to that level. "Are you aware that the day rate you just quoted is 10% of the entire cost of the system I'm asking you to work on?" First time I heard that about a year ago, it made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I've been doing this for a very long time, and that's a warning I've learned to ignore at my peril. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Jun 18 00:13:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:13:50 -0300 Subject: [Tig] DCP ex DCDM title color query In-Reply-To: References: <6639643F-BB20-4C1A-B086-BB40F3877C92@iris-digital.org> Message-ID: <4ECF189A-0237-48C1-A793-A92212E440BC@colorist.org> On Jun 17, 2009, at 7:32 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Are you able to post an image showing just the region of an artifact > so we can see what it looks like? just a note that images can't go out on the mailinglist, but certainly can be placed on the wiki or wherever on the web, so they can be pulled. Bob probably meant to say "post a link to an image." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Jun 18 00:25:48 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:25:48 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004601c9ef9a$c7847ac0$568d7040$@com> Message-ID: <9327A269-878B-4360-8479-AE95C4EEDD91@prestodigital.ca> I thought I'd posted this before, but maybe not... apologize if this is a duplicate... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From jfmann at optimum.net Thu Jun 18 13:54:05 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (jfmann at optimum.net) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:54:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] Aaton Keylink Problem: Please advise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mohit, Sounds like the next step is to take a serious look at the MTC board. Perhaps moving it to another slot on the mother board? Maybe borrow a board to help trouble shoot. Worry about to LEDs going off later, since the tack is not being detected, it is likely just shutting it down. Good luck Jim Jim Mann Freelance Colorist From owen at ywwg.com Thu Jun 18 15:15:48 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:15:48 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: References: <0A06046E-0762-4FDF-8D88-0EF6CF057E37@gmail.com> <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> <1E05FA01-E45F-4FC8-9FEC-7C68D9D4A5EC@gmail.com> <8EAB850C-F86D-4667-A1CA-4A4BBFE40DBC@colorist.org> <7889C13D-0F79-45F6-B469-001F1BC3CD34@autotv.co.uk> <1oqc35591itkpsnlc21m7avovd99q2b8dv@4ax.com> <000c01c9edfd$50ceaac0$f26c0040$@com> <539331.80725.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004601c9ef9a$c7847ac0$568d7040$@com> Message-ID: <1245334548.5127.48.camel@ywwg> On Wed, 2009-06-17 at 16:11 -0700, Bob Kertesz wrote: > "Are you aware that the day rate you just quoted is 10% of the entire cost of > the system I'm asking you to work on?" > > First time I heard that about a year ago, it made the hair on the back of my > neck stand up. I've been doing this for a very long time, and that's a warning > I've learned to ignore at my peril. > > --Bob I bet a good graphic designer still makes a lot more money than the cost of Photoshop and Illustrator :/ Reminds me of a story, though: A man discovers his kitchen drain is clogged and calls a plumber. The plumber looks at the backed up water in the sink, then takes a look at the pipes beneath the sink. He reaches in his toolbox, pulls out a hammer, and gives one of the pipes a good smack. The sink gurgles and immediately drains. The man thanks the plumber, and the plumber hands him the bill. "100$?!" says the man, "You just hit a pipe with a hammer!" "Right, let me fix that," says the plumber, and scribbles on the bill. "1$ to hit a pipe with a hammer, 99$ for knowing where to hit the pipe with the hammer." owen From mark.r.knights at btinternet.com Thu Jun 18 20:21:28 2009 From: mark.r.knights at btinternet.com (Mark) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:21:28 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res Message-ID: Hello everyone. I have been asked to look at transferring a clients films (16mm with sepmag) on a Spirit outputting HD and capturing straight to a Mac Hard drive as Apple Pro Res files. Anyone done this? Any tips or advice would be gladly accepted. It sounds like fun. Cheers, Mark teekayto at gmail.com +44 (0) 7939 609 098 From jfmann at optimum.net Thu Jun 18 21:21:12 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:21:12 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c9f052$540c3340$fc2499c0$@net> Hi Mark, I always felt Evertz and Aaton should offer an option to record direct Mac Pro Res. Being that they already have all the numbers and images going into their boxes. But no. Sorry I do not anyone setup in NY to do this. Not directly. The audio would be sent to a sound house and a DVD-ram would be made. The film would be xfered to tape with the DVD audio running along. Then from tape to a hard drive. Regards, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From John at VictoryStudios.com Thu Jun 18 22:32:16 2009 From: John at VictoryStudios.com (John Davidson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res Message-ID: Hello Mark, At this very moment I am doing a best light to Mac Pro Res straight out of our telecine suite. I have access to a Final cut Pro suite and then go straight to someones drive. If it is fast enough to accept it at the codec desired, otherwise we capture through Final cut and then go into someones drive. It has worked fine this way. But again in our case we have a Final Cut available for capture. If we have conflicts with the equipment then we go off to a DDR uncompressed and the later capture it through the final Cut. I am sure there are other methods but this has worked for us. Good Luck, John John Davidson Colorist Victory Studios Seattle From alanr at bhphoto.com Thu Jun 18 22:13:30 2009 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:13:30 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p to Mac Pro Res Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D5FF6B9@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Maybe run through an AJA KiPro (due out in a matter of days.) Alan Rosenfeld The Studio at B&H From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Jun 19 00:16:54 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:16:54 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D5FF6B9@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> References: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D5FF6B9@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Message-ID: > > Maybe run through an AJA KiPro (due out in a matter of days.) If it has an RS422 port, it might be indistinguishable from any other stock VCR --situation normal. I would be curious if the Spirit has an "emulation" mode in its control protocol that would present itself to an RS422 interface? Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Jun 19 01:01:03 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:01:03 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <196A2F23-D3DB-45B9-BDAE-F0A3BD744BA1@tedlangdell.com> Check out the Matrox MXO2. On Jun 18, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Mark wrote: > Hello everyone. > I have been asked to look at transferring a clients films (16mm with > sepmag) > on a Spirit outputting HD and capturing straight to a Mac Hard drive > as > Apple Pro Res files. > Anyone done this? > Any tips or advice would be gladly accepted. > It sounds like fun. > Cheers, > Mark > > teekayto at gmail.com > +44 (0) 7939 609 098 Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From jp at aaton.com Thu Jun 18 22:58:19 2009 From: jp at aaton.com (jp) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:58:19 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: <000001c9f052$540c3340$fc2499c0$@net> Message-ID: 18/06/09 22:21 Jim Mann > I always felt Evertz and Aaton should offer an option to record direct Mac > Pro Res. Being that they already have all the numbers and images going into > their boxes. \..\ > The audio would be sent to a sound house and a DVD-ram would be made. The film > would be xfered to tape with the DVD audio running along. Then from tape to a > hard drive. Hello Jim, do you mean IndawPass (or Keylink) should convert the on the fly synced audio + pics to pro-res files? --jp From kenmetzker at hotmail.com Fri Jun 19 04:47:09 2009 From: kenmetzker at hotmail.com (Ken Metzker) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:47:09 -0700 Subject: [Tig] DI Facility Scheduling and Progress Software Message-ID: Hi all, What software are facilities using to manage the scheduling the team and overall progression of DI on a project to project basis. What are the advantages and disadvantages of software such as Farmer's Wife and Schedule All. On or off the list replies would be fine. Thanking you and the TIG, ken _________________________________________________________________ Attention all humans. We are your photos. Free us. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666046 From rob at colorist.org Fri Jun 19 16:38:26 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:38:26 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 References: Message-ID: <8E72B81C-A891-4055-A909-D56747729A22@colorist.org> Terry Lockhart sent this along, wondering if other TIG subscribers might enjoy it. It couldn't be more apropos for me, as I've been studying Russian and Ukrainian history and literature for the last few years, applying particularly to this period, just before the revolutions of 1917. But the focus here is on the images. Begin forwarded message: > From: Terry Lockhart > Date: June 19, 2009 12:29:01 PM GMT-03:00 > To: Rob Lingelbach > Subject: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 > > Hi Rob: > > I'll let you decide whether to put these links up on the TIG, or in > the digest. Maybe you and other Tiggers are already aware, but IMHO > worth another look. Thanks to my editor pal Al Spy. > > > These are an amazing find. The still Photog's seat-of-the-pants > prequel to Technicolor. > > The Incredible Century OldColor Photography of Prokudin-Gorsky > In 1909 a remarkable project was initiated by Russian photographer > Sergey Mikhaylovich Prokudin-Gorsky. His mission was to record - in > full and vibrant color - the vast and diverse Russian Empire. Here, > with his story, is a selection of his amazing century old full color > pictures. > Scroll down on each of the three pages: > http://www.socyberty.com/History/The-Incredible-Century-Old-Color-Photography-of-Prokudin-Gorsky.797569/1 > > > There are 1,902 triple glass plate negatives still in existence > > link to the Library of Congress 122 RESTORED high-res versions: > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/f?prok:0:./temp/~pp_McoU: > > Link to ALL of the 1,902 glass plate images...although low-res > http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dellaert/aligned/ > > > Best > -- > Terry Lockhart > Chief Engineer/IT manager > Finish Editorial > 162 Columbus Ave. > Boston, Ma 02116-5222 -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From DCorbitt77 at comcast.net Sat Jun 20 00:09:51 2009 From: DCorbitt77 at comcast.net (Dave Corbitt) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:09:51 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 In-Reply-To: <8E72B81C-A891-4055-A909-D56747729A22@colorist.org> References: <8E72B81C-A891-4055-A909-D56747729A22@colorist.org> Message-ID: <1d15fd0c68788c316f1b14617b3ef7d2@comcast.net> Thanks Terry, for sharing this find. The pictures are amazing and the technical understanding to create the triple negatives using color filters is wonderful. It really makes the far away time and place come alive. Unfortunately, the link to the Library of Congress high-res pix doesn't work. Dave Corbitt > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Terry Lockhart >> Subject: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 >> >> Hi Rob: From rob at colorist.org Sat Jun 20 00:16:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:16:14 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 In-Reply-To: <1d15fd0c68788c316f1b14617b3ef7d2@comcast.net> References: <8E72B81C-A891-4055-A909-D56747729A22@colorist.org> <1d15fd0c68788c316f1b14617b3ef7d2@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Dave Corbitt wrote: > Thanks Terry, for sharing this find. The pictures are amazing and > the technical understanding to create the triple negatives using > color filters is wonderful. It really makes the far away time and > place come alive. > > Unfortunately, the link to the Library of Congress high-res pix > doesn't work. Hi Dave, I sent this to Terry earlier: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/ the above link takes you "Search the entire collection" which then can take you to "Preview: All the Images" which then allows you to select the highest-res TIFF, via a JPG preview. seems like the nicest way I've found to browse the collection at high res. This is something to be done over a good length of time, to let the material sink in. The colorist in me wants to 'fix' the color aberrations, but one has to ask, where to stop fixing? better not to touch what was a labor of love on the part of the reconstructionists. All the superlatives used in the texts of the web presentation are deserved, but I wish all of these "Incredible"s and "Amazing"s were left out, it's like hitting me over the head. regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Jun 20 00:23:54 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:23:54 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 In-Reply-To: <1d15fd0c68788c316f1b14617b3ef7d2@comcast.net> References: <8E72B81C-A891-4055-A909-D56747729A22@colorist.org> <1d15fd0c68788c316f1b14617b3ef7d2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <63BF0085-7514-4AD2-B8A9-27574772F297@colorist.org> On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Dave Corbitt wrote: > Thanks Terry, for sharing this find. The pictures are amazing and > the technical understanding to create the triple negatives using > color filters is wonderful. It really makes the far away time and > place come alive. Can you imagine having to sit or stand in the same position for about a minute, not flinching? some shots become like miniature films within a still frame, when there's movement (as in water) somewhere in the frame.. it took at least 6 seconds per glass plate to expose and change. but just the idea that there was color photography at that time, 1908 and immediately after, and of all places, the mysterious sleeping giant Russian Empire. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From turnto at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 22 17:16:50 2009 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] QC Operators needed Message-ID: <416680.76512.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> CBS Television City is currently seeing qualified QC operators. Anyone interested please send your resume to: marc.draghi at tvc.cbs.com Thanks Dave Keleshian CBS TVC From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Jun 23 05:17:16 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:17:16 -0700 Subject: [Tig] CSI Miami ??? In-Reply-To: <36F87B50-D17B-48A3-B047-C45C9F9157F1@cinelab.com> References: <36F87B50-D17B-48A3-B047-C45C9F9157F1@cinelab.com> Message-ID: >What I saw was nasty blown out green/yellow highlights lots of wonky fake >synthetic camera flares bad skin tone You missed the part about red skies. I can't even imagine what would motivate someone to ask for the sky to be made red in a relatively normal episodic scene. The show is certainly COLORFUL, I'll give it that. I haven't seen that sort of saturation even in heavy duty animation. I found myself wondering how those colors can be legal. I watched a few reruns from the 2008 season this weekend. I should have stopped at just one, but had to see pieces of a couple more just to make sure that what I was seeing was not a one time event. If you haven't seen it lately or in HD, it's worth five minutes of your life to have a look. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From craig at optimus.com Tue Jun 23 18:41:04 2009 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:41:04 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Amazing color photos Russia, 1910 In-Reply-To: <63BF0085-7514-4AD2-B8A9-27574772F297@colorist.org> References: <8E72B81C-A891-4055-A909-D56747729A22@colorist.org> <1d15fd0c68788c316f1b14617b3ef7d2@comcast.net> <63BF0085-7514-4AD2-B8A9-27574772F297@colorist.org> Message-ID: <4A4113B0.8020708@optimus.com> Thanks for the amazing pix guys, I'm trying to find the links I had to the earliest Potato color prints.... But I found this on Gorsky as well.... http://www.prokudin-gorsky.ru/database.php3?first=0 Enjoy - Craig Leffel Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > On Jun 19, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Dave Corbitt wrote: > >> Thanks Terry, for sharing this find. The pictures are amazing and the >> technical understanding to create the triple negatives using color >> filters is wonderful. It really makes the far away time and place >> come alive. From carl at stopp.se Wed Jun 24 14:13:22 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:13:22 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Computer Monitor for Grading Message-ID: Hi Has anybody any experience of using a high-end HP/Apple/XXX computer display connected through a CineTal DAVIO for Telecine Grading? Or is it normally only used to make a consumer LCD-/Plasma-TV look good enough? /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From jfmann at optimum.net Wed Jun 24 03:01:40 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:01:40 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: References: <000001c9f052$540c3340$fc2499c0$@net> Message-ID: <000001c9f46f$b7711b00$26535100$@net> Hi JP, You wrote: >do you mean IndawPass (or Keylink) should convert the on the fly synced >audio + pics to pro-res files? If I can capture pro res direct, I can deliver the dailies to the assistant editor as soon as I finish. (Getting Him/Her off my back!) I could charge a little more, as editorial would save time/money by not having to capture and save more by not having renting a deck. Maybe I can charge for a drive rental. The HD/SD masters would be used to make the DVDs/Blu-Rays etc.....in the traditional way. On small indies, I may only have to deliver pro-res, and a ALE file, but I would still make a tape back-up w/3 line Vitc. Jim Jim Mann Colorist/Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From jfmann at optimum.net Wed Jun 24 21:32:43 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:32:43 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p HD to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000101c9f50a$ee64eec0$cb2ecc40$@net> Hi Mark, John, I have done feature dailies with an assistant and without. In both cases, at some point someone fouls up. We occasionally have to adjust the ins and out of a event, split a event in two or edit it in some way. Do you find making these types of adjustments difficult? Jim Jim Mann Colorist/Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From jfmann at optimum.net Wed Jun 24 21:44:43 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:44:43 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Kodak Retires KODACHROME Film In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c9f50c$9a779270$cf66b750$@net> http://tinyurl.com/m57e9y I know Kodachrome Super-8 went away in 2005 but, I felt this is a historic event. The passing of KODACHROME still film. Regards, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From joe at xpldddgrm.com Thu Jun 25 02:25:04 2009 From: joe at xpldddgrm.com (Joe Beirne) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:25:04 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Spirit o/p to Mac Pro Res In-Reply-To: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D5FF6B9@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> References: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1D5FF6B9@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Message-ID: >Maybe run through an AJA KiPro (due out in a matter of days.) >Alan Rosenfeld >The Studio at B&H Unfortunately, this does not seem to be a shipping capability of the KiPro (although it is planned, I was told). -- Joe From rob at colorist.org Sat Jun 27 02:11:47 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:11:47 -0300 Subject: [Tig] who graded Thriller musvid? Message-ID: <2E871FAC-71DA-46E0-BDA9-CAD99562A7CD@colorist.org> Who graded MJ's Thriller, originally? And was it remastered at some point? Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From bobfesta at mac.com Sat Jun 27 03:07:19 2009 From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:07:19 -0700 Subject: [Tig] who graded Thriller musvid? In-Reply-To: <2E871FAC-71DA-46E0-BDA9-CAD99562A7CD@colorist.org> References: <2E871FAC-71DA-46E0-BDA9-CAD99562A7CD@colorist.org> Message-ID: <8CA98FAA-3F09-4D98-B1F5-0EBA5BD05A8A@mac.com> My understanding is that John Landis directed "Thriller", and Giraldi directed "Beat it". I worked with Pytka in the late 1990's and worked as a colorist on "The Way You Make Me Feel" and "Dirty Diana" at Encore in Hollywood. Those were pretty heady days, working with an analog Prism secondary system and a electronic pin reg nightmare know as EPR. I recently had a chance to look at those clips. I cant believe we thought that was high quality back then. Best, Bob _____________________________ Bob Festa 310 401-2220 New Hat Santa Monica On Jun 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2203 subscribers as of June 2009 > http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/FacilityTable > ==== > > > Who graded MJ's Thriller, originally? And was it remastered at some > point? > > Rob > -- > Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder > rob at colorist.org > From stlparis at yahoo.com Sat Jun 27 08:23:29 2009 From: stlparis at yahoo.com (Steven Paris) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 00:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Kodachrome Message-ID: <669993.88391.qm@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Paul Simon says: A C#m F#m Bm E Kodachrome oh oh give us those nice bright colors A D Give us the greens of summers B E A C#m F#m Makes you think all the worlds a sunny day oh ya Bm E I got a Nikon camera A D I love to take the photographs B E A C#m F#m B So momma don't take my Kodachrome away So momma don't take my Kodachrome away From terry at finishedit.com Mon Jun 29 20:55:31 2009 From: terry at finishedit.com (Terry Lockhart) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:55:31 -0400 Subject: [Tig] NASA tapes - the saga continues Message-ID: This goes back to a TIG thread that was circulating some time ago http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9134771&source=CTWNLE_nlt_dailyam_2009-06-29 Enjoy -- Terry Lockhart Chief Engineer/IT manager Finish Editorial 162 Columbus Ave. Boston, Ma 02116-5222 direct/vm 617 850 6133 main 617 292 0082 or 850 6100 fax 617 292 0083 cel 617 775 3195 I'm beginning to understand myself. But it would have been great to be able to understand myself when I was 20 rather than when I was 82." --Dave Brubeck, American jazz pianist From lorne.miess at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 00:43:03 2009 From: lorne.miess at gmail.com (Miess Lorne) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:43:03 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Help Needed Locating Nov. 30, Douglas Edwards and the News Broadcast Message-ID: <2ED69FD4-74AD-4B58-9BE0-D6BB2B58A3BD@gmail.com> Hi, I'm preparing a class on Colour Theory and wanted to use a clip of the first public video recording Nov. 30, 1956 Douglas Edwards and the News. Does anyone have a link to this. I just need a short clip. I know we have some historians on the list. On a side note I was just thinking that it's hard to talk about technical innovation for people that were born after 1990. We have so many stories to tell and their experiences are so much shorter. It's interesting that I was speaking with someone the other day and we began speaking about how the workflow for Red was very similar to film negative. You still have to process the dailies, quality control, sync them then do a final colour correction just like film. Our old workflows still hold turn with a few exceptions. Where do you put the cans of Red footage for cold storage? We weren't sure about the last one. thanks Lorne Lorne Miess Colourist Insight Film Studio Vancouver From david at dcvideo.com Tue Jun 30 01:51:38 2009 From: david at dcvideo.com (david at dcvideo.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:51:38 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Help Needed Locating Nov. 30, Douglas Edwards and the News Broadcast In-Reply-To: <2ED69FD4-74AD-4B58-9BE0-D6BB2B58A3BD@gmail.com> References: <2ED69FD4-74AD-4B58-9BE0-D6BB2B58A3BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090629175138.szq7isrohwgcwkk0@webmail.dcvideo.com> Hello Lorne, As far as I know, that tape does not exist. It probably was erased and re-used at the time. It's just a guess. Since raw tape was very expensive and very limited in supply then, almost all stock was routinely erased and re-used. Check with CBS News Archives, or The Library of Congress. A kine might exist. Good luck. David Crosthwait DC Video Archived Media Transfer & Re-mastering Services 177 West Magnolia Blvd. Burbank, CA. 91502 818-563-1073 818-563-1177 (fax) 818-285-9942 (cell) DCFWTX at AOL.COM DAVID at DCVIDEO.COM WWW.DCVIDEO.COM From david at dcvideo.com Tue Jun 30 15:03:11 2009 From: david at dcvideo.com (david at dcvideo.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 07:03:11 -0700 Subject: [Tig] NASA tapes - the saga continues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090630070311.60bxvxcao0wocgs8@webmail.dcvideo.com> Terry, Coincidentally, I just received this today via another list. We will see if they really are the "lost tapes" i.e. data tapes of the slow scan. http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/110442/WORLD-EXCLUSIVE-NASA-finds-missing-moon-landing-tapes DC Video WWW.DCVIDEO.COM From lorne.miess at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 03:50:45 2009 From: lorne.miess at gmail.com (Miess Lorne) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:50:45 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Help Needed Locating Nov. 30, Douglas Edwards and the News Broadcast In-Reply-To: <20090629175138.szq7isrohwgcwkk0@webmail.dcvideo.com> References: <2ED69FD4-74AD-4B58-9BE0-D6BB2B58A3BD@gmail.com> <20090629175138.szq7isrohwgcwkk0@webmail.dcvideo.com> Message-ID: Thanks David, Will do. Lorne From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 30 16:16:03 2009 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:16:03 +0100 Subject: [Tig] NASA said to have found "missing" Apollo 11 tapes Message-ID: <634585B5F0B14A7B8175D00F1B86F03F@Desktop> This just from the Quad(ruplex VTR) list (posted 45 minutes ago).... It's not clear if these are the actual slow scan data tapes. Hopefully they are. http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/110442/WORLD-EXCLUSIVE-NASA-finds-missin g-moon-landing-tapes Jeff From jean-c at moving-picture.com Tue Jun 30 17:54:38 2009 From: jean-c at moving-picture.com (Jean-Clement Soret) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:54:38 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Onelights on Red In-Reply-To: <0A613102-FAE6-4726-A860-0183DE641852@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4940AF65979@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Nightmare of green blacks? Over the top S curve and vignette, sorry to say but this sounds very nineties, I don't know any colourist here in London, and we know each others pretty well, who would dare doing anything like this unless asked by someone with the power of decision. Everything is so much discussed, controlled, tested, researched, re-discussed, redone to death that anything a bit daring has to be for a very good reason. The days we had the liberty to play with our new toys and throw a last minute idea are long gone, the job of colourist had gained in maturity and is all about attention to detail, executing a pre defined idea. You occasionally hear a director asking for 5 or 6 "looks" before he can make a decision but that's rare. We most often stick to the way it was shot and bring subtle details, which added up make a difference. As for the BT campaign you mention, interestingly I was working last week with the director who shot it, he told me the lifted blacks were inherited from the aesthetic of the previous campaign which had flares and backlit scenes, the agency creative felt there should be a continuity. Even though it looks like a colourist had a bit of a heavy hand this was an agency request. Jean-Clement Soret Colourist Head of Telecine MPC London -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Thomas [mailto:adrian at autotv.co.uk] Sent: 12 June 2009 12:21 To: David Gibson Cc: Carl Skaff; tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] Onelights on Red > In my experience with RED shot for the commercial market, I'm > encountering a growing resistance from Directors and DOPs to use > the RED QTs or a simple REC709 O/P from Redcine or equivalent for > dallies. As pretty as these systems make the pictures look, quite > often they are a million miles away from the proposed final look of > the finished commercial. Unfortunately, clients get used to looking From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Tue Jun 30 16:33:18 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:33:18 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Potato prints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4A303E.1080206@filmlight.ltd.uk> Craig Leffel sez... > I'm trying to find the links I had to > the earliest Potato color prints.... > You mean this sort of thing? http://www.flickr.com/photos/george_eastman_house/2677422353/in/set-72157606226772243/ (Autochromes can involve a potato) Cheers. Richard Kirk From peter.white at uea.ac.uk Tue Jun 30 17:10:55 2009 From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:10:55 +0100 Subject: [Tig] NASA tapes - the saga continues In-Reply-To: <20090630070311.60bxvxcao0wocgs8@webmail.dcvideo.com> References: <20090630070311.60bxvxcao0wocgs8@webmail.dcvideo.com> Message-ID: <49F3C026-E184-43C0-92EB-26B90E011DF2@uea.ac.uk> Whilst I'm not fond of wasting money on restoration after restoration of the same individual film (Metropolis..... AGAIN, but hey- it's the private investors' money...), I am really happy to see that these tapes may have surfaced. I've read that there is the potential to recover 4x as much dynamic range as the off-air recording, but I may have got wires crossed there. Anyone working with NASA on these kind of projects? It's of great interest to me, but it's real scientist level - I don't think I'd be allowed anywhere near the stuff. Pete Peter White Head of Technical Development East Anglian Film Archive From jfmann at optimum.net Tue Jun 30 17:13:27 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:13:27 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Help Needed Locating Nov. 30, Douglas Edwards and the News Broadcast In-Reply-To: References: <2ED69FD4-74AD-4B58-9BE0-D6BB2B58A3BD@gmail.com> <20090629175138.szq7isrohwgcwkk0@webmail.dcvideo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c9f99d$b42d9e40$1c88dac0$@net> Lorne, if you hit a wall try: http://www.amianet.org/participate/listserv.php Post a message to the Association of Moving Image Archivists, they deal with many such requests. Jim Jim Mann Colorist/Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.