From cinema at supermegaactionplus.com Fri Jan 2 15:39:37 2009 From: cinema at supermegaactionplus.com (Jamie Fraser) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:39:37 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film Message-ID: <00CCCA6A-ABD9-4852-A276-6CFADCA371AB@supermegaactionplus.com> Happy New Year to all! Not sure if this has already been mentioned or not, but just in case, an article on BBC software developed to recover colour information from black and white film... http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/dec/11/digital-video-restoration-dad-s-army I found it through FreshDV, which has links to other relevant articles: http://www.freshdv.com/2008/12/fascinating-bbc-color-recovery-research.html Jamie Super Mega Action Plus http://supermegaactionplus.com From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Fri Jan 2 17:11:40 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:11:40 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film Message-ID: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> I was talking to one of the BBC's Research chaps the other day and he mentioned this. A lesson to us all I think; never remove info to try and get a better archive. It would have been so so easy for the BBC to have put a 4.443Mhz PAL color notch filter in the signal of the Telerecorder to get a cleaner image on the High Rez CRT for the B/W transfer, Had they done so the color could never have been recovered. I have no doubt someone will now calculate the line pair resolution required that resolved the chroma crawl that was so useful. I assume 16mm b/w stock was the archiving mechanism. Happy New Year Peter From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 2 17:33:57 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:33:57 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film In-Reply-To: <00CCCA6A-ABD9-4852-A276-6CFADCA371AB@supermegaactionplus.com> References: <00CCCA6A-ABD9-4852-A276-6CFADCA371AB@supermegaactionplus.com> Message-ID: On Jan 2, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Jamie Fraser wrote: > Not sure if this has already been mentioned or not, but just in > case, an article on BBC software developed to recover colour > information from black and white film... Hi Jamie, we did discuss it, I'd put it at about a year ago, could be + or - a little.. will be a challenge to find it in the archives.. and now my family wants me to color correct 130 photos I took yesterday of my brother-in-law being sworn in as the mayor of Batayporã, Mato Grosso do Sul, Brasil! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 2 19:59:51 2009 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:59:51 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film In-Reply-To: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> References: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately they did so only a small amount of B/W film recordings have residual subcarrier on them (the early stuff). Yes, t'was slow monochrome neg stock that was used. I believe this was a Steve Roberts / Jonathan Wood exercise? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of peter_swinson Sent: 02 January 2009 17:12 To: tig Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org Dave Pickett supports the TIG ==== I was talking to one of the BBC's Research chaps the other day and he mentioned this. A lesson to us all I think; never remove info to try and get a better archive. It would have been so so easy for the BBC to have put a 4.443Mhz PAL color notch filter in the signal of the Telerecorder to get a cleaner image on the High Rez CRT for the B/W transfer, Had they done so the color could never have been recovered. I have no doubt someone will now calculate the line pair resolution required that resolved the chroma crawl that was so useful. I assume 16mm b/w stock was the archiving mechanism. Happy New Year Peter _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Fri Jan 2 20:57:15 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:57:15 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film In-Reply-To: References: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCDA@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Jonathan graded the recovered colour, I had nothing to do with it. In fact I famously said that I would eat my hat if they ever got it to work - so I'm currently looking for reputable suppliers of edible headwear. However, I am across the process, as I'm using it elsewhere... To cut a long story short, the 16mm FR neg was telecined at HD, then processed by Richard Russell using his colour recovery software, which came out of the Colour Reovery Working Group set up by James Insell. This produced a standard def Digibeta. It was then given a ballpark grade by Jonathan Wood at BBC Resources, underwent a huge amount of manual cleanup and retouching by Peter Crocker at SVS - including 'videoising' the film recording using the VidFIRE process - then it came back for a final grade by Jonathan. Sound was restored separately by Mark Ayres, using an off-air 1/4" recording made by Radio WM DJ Ed Doolan on the original transmission. I'm told by Keith Palmer that there were only two subcarrier filters available for the whole of the BBC film recording department, so the chances of FR's of original colour material still containing embedded chroma is actually quite high. Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From dvhitman at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 05:48:28 2009 From: dvhitman at hotmail.com (Justin Lovell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:48:28 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Realtime Dirt/dust/scratch and Grain Mgmt tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just curious if anyone can give me their experience/feedback with any of these 3 products or if there are other -affordable- solutions in the 30k range or otherwise that could be recommended. "Digital Vision DVNR / Film Systems - Aurora / Teranex Vc300 (image restore functions)" My research: DVNR seems to be top of the class- but pricy when it comes to having it do multi-tasking. Ie, dust removal and grain reduction at the same time. Film Systems- I have no experience with them, but home to speak with them this week. Their website says 'affordable solution'.. though it seems everyone toots that horn.I'm about to demo the Teranex box this week. It is apparantly using Kodak's ICE algorhythms in realtime. Can do image enhancing and image restoring at the same time, I think this may be the least expensive solution, but I don't yet know how good the results will be. I don't think it does 2k, but does 1920x1080 and cross conversions. I'll be using it with scanning in super 16 and super 8 film on my ...homebrewed... transfer suite. Also going to be testing out using a silicon imaging mini2k camera as an imaging sensor for photographing the film in HD/2k.. but that's for another thread... Thanks for the advice, Justin Lovell Cinematograhper/Colorist Toronto, Canada www.FrameDiscreet.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/events.aspx From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Mon Jan 5 11:19:29 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 12:19:29 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Realtime Dirt/dust/scratch and Grain Mgmt tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4961ECC1.7030303@free.fr> I would add PFClean to the list: www.thepixelfarm.co.uk Digital Vision has the Phoenix but I'm not sure it falls in your price tag Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with those companies Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows Lille, France for a couple of weeks From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Mon Jan 5 11:39:52 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:39:52 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade, or change color? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4961F188.7080106@filmlight.ltd.uk> tig-request at colorist.org wrote: > On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Rob Lingelbach wrote: >> I wonder how this 100-year life is measured... is there some way to >> accelerate time in a controlled experiment ? >> A lot of bleaching is done using UV. The Canon CLC photocopiers used a silicone-based fuser oil that was almost UV-proof and its photocopies were very durable. I have heard of prints surviving for years in shop windows. Inkjet inks have to be water soluble, and UV photons have enough energy to break carbon-carbon bonds. I have I have some prints where I have matched some subtle tones using the fluorescent inks, which are notoriously fugative, and they are OK many years later because they have been kept in a file. If you laminate the inkjet prints they may last. The 100-years figure probably comes from bleaching test rigs. The sample is exposed to xenon lamp light, probably with the IR component removed to reduce sample heating, and the bleaching is assumed to be proportional to the exposure. This will not predict other forms of discoloration such as the orange tint you get on old color photos, which is a process that happens in the dark. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From steve at veralith.com Wed Jan 7 05:35:21 2009 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:35:21 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source Message-ID: There's been a discussion on the Avid listserve about the reasoning about toggling back to the source after making a correction. There are several good reasons to do it, but actually I can't find a lot of parallels elsewhere in the creative world. When I make a trim in an edit, my client or I either like it or we don't. And if we DO like it, then I don't go back and show them how bad it looked before. Same with audio mixes. In a studio, you definitely try different things with the mix, but you don't bother showing your client "This is what it sounded like before and NOW listen to it." It's generally just about liking what you see or hear. A typographer may try numerous fonts, but they don't bother checking everything they do against Helvetica. :-) Yet with color correction, it's a pretty widely accepted practice (it seems to me after watching a lot of different colorists run sessions) to at least toggle back to the original source footage. I attribute this to several things including showing your value to the client and assessing if there's anything in your correction that compares unfavorably in any way to the original source. Any thoughts on the value of toggling back to view the original source material? Just a conversation starter more than anything else. Steve Hullfish contributor: www.provideocoalition.com author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction" co-author: "Color Correction for Video: revised edition" and "Avid Xpress Pro Editing Workshop" presenter: Class On Demand's "Complete Training for Avid Media Composer." From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 14:15:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:15:14 -0200 Subject: [Tig] wiki drawing applet Message-ID: The TIG's wiki drawing applet is working now. A drawing can be added to any wiki page for which the user has edit privileges, by inserting the tag: {{#drawing:HappyWiki.png|400|300}} ..where "HappyWiki.png" is an example name of your drawing; 400 is the width, and 300 the height, in pixels. acceptable image formats are svg, svgz, png, jpg. There exists an example of the draw applet on the TODO page for experimentation, it is the second drawing; the first, the famous "festa tree," is frozen in time as it was created with an outdated version of the applet and will need to be redrawn externally, uploaded, and then theoretically could be edited. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Wed Jan 7 15:04:24 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:04:24 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCDA@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> References: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCDA@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE0@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> As promised, here are detail of how we used the new Colour Recovery process as part of the restoration of one episode from the 1973 Doctor Who story 'Planet of the Daleks'. http://www.purpleville.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rtwebsite/DalekWarDVD.htm Steve Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From mattwillisjones at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 16:29:13 2009 From: mattwillisjones at gmail.com (Matt Willis-Jones) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:29:13 +0100 Subject: [Tig] toggle back to source question .. Message-ID: <95aec4d80901070829n57974224se8bfbd1d06b70148@mail.gmail.com> (i had some problems sending this from my normal account - got sent back to me - bad formatting apparently - so i'm trying for a third time ... apologies if anyone got the previous attempts...) Yes i think there is a very valid point in toggling back to the source (never mind toggling back to the sauce! ;) ) ahem. ok - valid point: you (and client) may like what you see - but if you check back against the source material you have a chance to check - have we lost some detail? - although this grade looks 'nice', looking back at the original are we convinced this was the way to go? etc... in short, my arguement comes from the viewpoint of not: 'Wow - looks better now huh?' but more from the perspective of: 'Are we sure we couldn't do any better with the material we've got?' As our eyes adjust to what we're seeing, it is very easy to forget what the starting point was - or at least to inaccurately remember it. The point of a grading session, i'm sure we all agree, is not to show up the cinematographer as some half-wit who pushes a button, but to help focus the image in on what it is supposed to be... to make the image technically 'clean', and artistically appropriate.... Is the shot communicating what it should? Let's look at the original again and see what you were trying to do on set ... let's check we're helping it along, not taking it somewhere else... what is art? art is whatever society says it is. what is perfection? perfection is whatever the client says it is. what is colour grading? It's something they spell differently in America. matt From jpo at prestodigital.ca Wed Jan 7 16:50:53 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 09:50:53 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> It follows from the maxim "to do no harm", where there is plenty of potential for it. It varies as to whether there is any value in toggling the grade "out" to look back at where we started from. DPs ask for it all the time to evaluate their own performance -- how many points up or down, colour trim for lighting, etc. If you're actually "correcting" for bad original, there is sometimes value in making sure that excessive noise isn't being introduced, or key values aren't being adversely affected, flesh tone, costuming, etc. On the other hand, if its an extreme grade/look, there's no point at all, for instance if an extreme wash has been dropped over the whole picture, or its been color-stripped to black&white, or bleach- bypassed, or any number of other treatments that has nothing to do with the original values. Yet it is most of time gratifying to hear the client gasp. Most have no idea what kind of potential is lying dormant in their material... or that their story is languishing behind scene-to-scene discontinuity that is destroying a viewer's suspension of disbelief. Its intensely rewarding to go from "why would anyone do that?" to "why doesn't everyone do this?"... > > Yet with color correction, it's a pretty widely accepted practice > (it seems to me after watching a lot of different colorists run > sessions) to at least toggle back to the original source footage. I > attribute this to several things including showing your value to > the client and assessing if there's anything in your correction > that compares unfavorably in any way to the original source. > > Any thoughts on the value of toggling back to view the original > source material? Just a conversation starter more than anything else. > Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 17:02:57 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:02:57 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <335340A1-3DCA-4742-9C0D-8B87A4CF4330@colorist.org> On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:35 AM, Steve Hullfish wrote: > Any thoughts on the value of toggling back to view the original > source material? Just a conversation starter more than anything else. Hi Steve et al., well, if you're doing a grade from film in telecine, the source is very much a result of someone's idea of how to align the telecine, and may not be indicative of the stock used, nor what is on the film. I used to get into an explanation with the client about how to define the source color, but in recent years have dropped it in favor of streamlining the session and having a "base grade" that I set quickly on each shot (in favor of the DoP if I can) so that there is a "starting point" which I would call the "source." I think this also can be applied to grading non-film capture, as often the original files are so flat and ugly that they don't mean much. regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 17:08:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:08:25 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source In-Reply-To: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> References: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Yet it is most of time gratifying to hear the client gasp. Most > have no idea that's a great name for the button assigned to the toggle: Gamma- aperture-symbiosis-process, or GASP! certain well-set-up grading suites where I've worked have, as the last component in the signal path before the monitor, a switcher that allows a wipe or cut or key that makes it really easy to invoke the GASP response between 'source' and 'grade.' It will hereafter be labelled GASP. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ian at plastercity.com Wed Jan 7 17:17:06 2009 From: ian at plastercity.com (Ian Vertovec) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 09:17:06 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source In-Reply-To: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> References: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: > On the other hand, if its an extreme grade/look, there's no point at > all, I feel there is value in looking at the source if you're working on a rather extreme look. Sometimes viewing where you started can be kind of an emotional reference. You may remember how you felt about the material before you pushed it, and this will allow you to recognize when you've gone too far or not enough. Ian Vertovec Digital Intermediate Colorist PlasterCITY Digital Post From somearsehole at hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 17:20:16 2009 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:20:16 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source In-Reply-To: References: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: oh you mean the 'Grade Against Source Projector' .... From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 17:28:15 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:28:15 -0200 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes Message-ID: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> there is a lot of value in using the variables furthest upstream to the source, e.g. primaries or the light itself, in creating the lowest- noise image, when dealing with film. A while back, I lost my scopes in a power surge. I felt like Peter Graves, Captain Over in Airplane! where he asks Victor for the vector. It was during a client session, and I trusted my main monitor as much as I've ever trusted one. It was really a different creative experience, and one well worth doing, to work completely without scopes, on a commercial comprising about 20 shots in varying light conditions, studio and location, that had to match. It was like engaging another area of the brain, or using as much of one as I had left. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 17:40:04 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:40:04 -0200 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:28 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > A while back, I lost my scopes in a power surge. I felt like Peter > Graves, Captain Over as there is in aviation, there should be certain additional ratings for colorists, one of which would be SCOPELESS. Another would be OVER 10000 GASPs. We already have instructor ratings, and multi-engine (telecine, data)... There could also be INSTRUMENT RATING which would be the inverse of SCOPELESS; the color monitor or projector would be turned off, and the colorist would be working from instruments alone. On a dark and stormy night. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From BTopazio at company3.com Wed Jan 7 19:12:48 2009 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Toggle back to the source In-Reply-To: References: <2D2A3D2B-4CA0-4A53-95E3-184E5B98492E@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401A0B128@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Huh, I think I've seen this custom button on one of our colorist's desks, but I don't think it has the 'P' at the end. Hmm, must've just worn off. ==== oh you mean the 'Grade Against Source Projector' .... _______________________________________________ From t.step at comcast.net Wed Jan 7 19:12:32 2009 From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:12:32 -0700 Subject: [Tig] no scopes In-Reply-To: <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0438CA94-76F8-48A2-B8A5-E5A93AE3B555@comcast.net> FWIW one of my post houses plunked me in the chair with scopes off and asked to dial in a Macbeth, and then rotate a hue and park it in the boxes on the scope as part of first meeting... Must have done a decent job since I was invited back and got the gig, but ... Not a bad skill to have, flying "blind" Tom On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:40, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > Dave Pickett supports the TIG > ==== > > > > On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:28 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > >> A while back, I lost my scopes in a power surge. I felt like Peter >> Graves, Captain Over > > as there is in aviation, there should be certain additional ratings > for colorists, one of which would be SCOPELESS. Another would be > OVER 10000 GASPs. We already have instructor ratings, and multi- > engine (telecine, data)... There could also be INSTRUMENT RATING > which would be the inverse of SCOPELESS; the color monitor or > projector would be turned off, and the colorist would be working > from instruments alone. On a dark and stormy night. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 19:44:26 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:44:26 -0200 Subject: [Tig] no scopes In-Reply-To: <0438CA94-76F8-48A2-B8A5-E5A93AE3B555@comcast.net> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <0438CA94-76F8-48A2-B8A5-E5A93AE3B555@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8DF42FDD-C74A-47A1-BF13-19B384215936@colorist.org> On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Tom Step wrote: > FWIW one of my post houses plunked me in the chair since it was your post house, how could you fail? > with scopes off and asked to dial in a Macbeth, At arts school I once had to dial in a Hamlet on cue without prior knowledge, and decided to stay in the music department. A Lear would be easier, but then there are all the confusing cockpit dials. > and then rotate a hue and park it Reminds me of Mr. Grant's escapade on Sunset Blvd. 12 years or so ago. > in the boxes on the scope as part of first meeting... Must have done > a decent job since I was invited back and got the gig, but ... > Not a bad skill to have, flying "blind" it definitely exercises the mind in new ways. unnerving at first, you feel like you're groping, without all the pleasure associated with it. Then with a few scenes under the belt, a sense of accomplishment sets in, and it's like you passed some kind of test. So much of what a seasoned (with thyme?) colorist does is by feel, and if he/she knows the desk and response.. it would even be fun to hood the monitor so you couldn't see your hands nor the UI, and play the gig like Ray Charles. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jdhouston at earthlink.net Wed Jan 7 19:55:02 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:55:02 -0800 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 9:40 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > There could also be INSTRUMENT RATING which would be the inverse of > SCOPELESS; the color monitor or projector would be turned off, and > the colorist would be working from instruments alone. On a dark > and stormy night. Then there is the BARNSTORMER rating which is with both the scope and the monitor turned off. :-) And there is a sub-certificate for SEERs, no scope, no display, and no data. "I know how it will turn out without having to do any of that messy data work". Jim jdhouston at earthlink.net From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 20:01:39 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:01:39 -0200 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> Message-ID: <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Jim Houston wrote: > Then there is the BARNSTORMER rating which is with both the scope > and the monitor turned off. :-) but with a perfectly calibrated backlight, seat height, console surface, neck angle, mesh back support, and Mike Waldie on the floor of the machine room, the BARNSTORMER rating would be a piece of cake. He once taught me how to take off and land a 777, so I'm not whistling Dixie. > And there is a sub-certificate for SEERs, no scope, no display, and > no data. "I know how it will turn out > without having to do any of that messy data work". given the proper electric stimuli, at certain generic points of the brain, simultaneously to all persons of an audience, there wouldn't have to be any projection apparatus. No messy LUTs. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Jan 7 20:13:31 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:13:31 -0800 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <04E61D4F-205F-4F45-84C3-71FC6C9103B0@tedlangdell.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:01 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > given the proper electric stimuli, at certain generic points of the > brain, simultaneously to all persons of an audience, there wouldn't > have to be any projection apparatus. No messy LUTs. How do you guarantee that other "connected" brains interprets the stimuli as you intended? Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From t.step at comcast.net Wed Jan 7 20:20:00 2009 From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 13:20:00 -0700 Subject: [Tig] no scopes In-Reply-To: <8DF42FDD-C74A-47A1-BF13-19B384215936@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <0438CA94-76F8-48A2-B8A5-E5A93AE3B555@comcast.net> <8DF42FDD-C74A-47A1-BF13-19B384215936@colorist.org> Message-ID: <8DEE2904-8BA7-4A4D-B6E2-DD59D46C7776@comcast.net> Renaming my house "Ray Charles method post". No scopes, no monitors. Just some Braille trackerballs... Tom From rogerito at terra.com.br Wed Jan 7 20:30:15 2009 From: rogerito at terra.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rog=E9rio_Moraes?=) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:30:15 -0200 Subject: [Tig] RES: primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <000001c97106$c0bb69a0$42323ce0$@com.br> I think a good "certification" would be called MRS ( short for Missing Reference Session, we could call it Mirs...). DO a session without a still store or any other device to compare previous shots with the one you are grading, just using yours "trusted" memory... How about? > -----Mensagem original----- > De: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] Em nome > de Rob Lingelbach > Enviada em: quarta-feira, 7 de janeiro de 2009 18:02 > Para: Jim Houston > Cc: Telecine Internet Group > Assunto: Re: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes > > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Jim Houston wrote: > > > Then there is the BARNSTORMER rating which is with both the scope > > and the monitor turned off. :-) > > but with a perfectly calibrated backlight, seat height, console > surface, neck angle, mesh back support, and Mike Waldie on the floor > of the machine room, the BARNSTORMER rating would be a piece of cake. > He once taught me how to take off and land a 777, so I'm not whistling > Dixie. > > > And there is a sub-certificate for SEERs, no scope, no display, and > > no data. "I know how it will turn out > > without having to do any of that messy data work". > > given the proper electric stimuli, at certain generic points of the > brain, simultaneously to all persons of an audience, there wouldn't > have to be any projection apparatus. No messy LUTs. > > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > > > __________ Informagco do ESET NOD32 Antivirus, versco da vacina 3744 > (20090106) __________ > > A mensagem foi verificada pelo ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > __________ Informação do ESET NOD32 Antivirus, versão da vacina 3744 (20090106) __________ A mensagem foi verificada pelo ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 20:32:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:32:14 -0200 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <04E61D4F-205F-4F45-84C3-71FC6C9103B0@tedlangdell.com> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> <04E61D4F-205F-4F45-84C3-71FC6C9103B0@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 6:13 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > How do you guarantee that other "connected" brains interprets the > stimuli as you intended? by reducing the brain's capabilities, a la Orwell. See Newspeak, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak "the only language in the world whose vocabulary gets smaller every year." The media have been on this track for a while... the Palindrone mesmerized the masses! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 7 20:34:27 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:34:27 -0200 Subject: [Tig] RES: primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <000001c97106$c0bb69a0$42323ce0$@com.br> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> <000001c97106$c0bb69a0$42323ce0$@com.br> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 6:30 PM, Rogério Moraes wrote: > I think a good "certification" would be called MRS ( short for Missing > Reference Session, we could call it Mirs...). DO a session without a > still > store or any other device to compare previous shots with the one you > are > grading, just using yours "trusted" memory... How about? yes rogerio, i've been in that situation and it's a very good test. your mind has to be very sharp, the eye well-rested, the normal dissipations of life temporarily unsatisfied... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Wed Jan 7 20:46:03 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:46:03 +0100 Subject: [Tig] RES: primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <000001c97106$c0bb69a0$42323ce0$@com.br> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> <000001c97106$c0bb69a0$42323ce0$@com.br> Message-ID: <4965148B.3000306@free.fr> Isn't that a bit like lab timing? I know some pretty good ones at that ;-) (And I've trained some on digital) Have you ever tried their video analyser? That's fun! Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows Lille, France for a couple of weeks > DO a session without a still > store or any other device to compare previous shots with the one you are > grading, just using yours "trusted" memory... How about? > > > From mohit at qlab.in Wed Jan 7 20:52:42 2009 From: mohit at qlab.in (Mohit Shetty) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:22:42 +0530 Subject: [Tig] Mohit Shetty is back!!! Message-ID: Hi Friends, Best Wishes for the New Year from QLAB, Mumbai......INDIA. Had been out of touch with TIG for a while....glad am back with the group.... best regards, Mohit ------------------------- Mohit M. Shetty M/s Quality Cine Labs Pvt Ltd., QLAB, A-17, Veera Desai Industrial Area Andheri(W), Mumbai - 400 053, INDIA tel: +91-22-26741693/4/5 fax: +91-22-26735780 & +91-22-26734867 cel: +91-9821010428 web: www.qlab.in From somearsehole at hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 21:07:47 2009 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 21:07:47 +0000 Subject: [Tig] no scopes In-Reply-To: <8DEE2904-8BA7-4A4D-B6E2-DD59D46C7776@comcast.net> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org> <0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <0438CA94-76F8-48A2-B8A5-E5A93AE3B555@comcast.net> <8DF42FDD-C74A-47A1-BF13-19B384215936@colorist.org> <8DEE2904-8BA7-4A4D-B6E2-DD59D46C7776@comcast.net> Message-ID: "Ray Charles method post" could be the first grading suite with nice big windows, the sun gently warming your skin... Matt Willis-Jones Quantel eQ / Shake artist Oslo From ken at flight4.org Wed Jan 7 23:43:06 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:43:06 -0000 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> References: <05E2BFB2-91C8-483C-B730-320CE40F3917@colorist.org><0F55A496-DBEB-469B-B28C-AD665BD9BF80@colorist.org> <9FA3F7A7-909F-4B1B-A865-58EE05BA98BB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <010c01c97121$b5062cb0$4701a8c0@flight4> Be very careful when learning to fly with Mr Waldie, as I was the one who taught him! Oh, and grading with scopes only... Had to do that once when I was asked to transfer a film of people eating live monkey brain... still makes me reach for the 'turbulence' sick bag just thinking about it. ken robinson -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Jim Houston wrote: He once taught me how to take off and land a 777, so I'm not whistling Dixie. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From mfw at musictrax.com Thu Jan 8 16:22:34 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:22:34 -0800 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <010c01c97121$b5062cb0$4701a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: On 1/7/09 3:43 PM, "Ken Robinson" wrote on the TIG list: > Oh, and grading with scopes only... Had to do that once when I was asked to > transfer a film of people eating live monkey brain... still makes me reach > for the 'turbulence' sick bag just thinking about it. >------------------------------------------------------------< Oh, that's nothing. Much earlier in my career (early 1980s), I worked for a now-defunct LA post house that got a contract to do a bunch of transfers of medical films. I hesitate to go into details (extremely graphic surgery), but let's just say I opted to kill the chroma on the monitors and try to just watch the scopes. Three days into one project, one of the colorists walked in and said, "whoa! That's disgusting! You oughta do what I do and just punch black on the monitor and just color-correct on the scopes." The next film I got to, which involved treating war victims who had stepped on land mines, was definitely a "scopes-only" transfer. Far worse than any horror film I've ever seen. A week later, the client (who was out of state) called to say the transfers had never looked better. Thankfully, the post house went under shortly afterwards, and I gravitated into features. Less gruesome, better pay. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Thu Jan 8 11:39:57 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 06:39:57 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD Message-ID: <200901080640_MC3-2-1A61-71D1@compuserve.com> Having recently acquired a Blue Ray Player, I am now somewhat confused about what is on Blue Ray. Gentlemen, this may sound a stupid question, but, are ALL feature films presented on Blue Ray, HD transfers from HD masters? Or are some/many up-converts from SD masters? I ask as many recent TV series seem available on Blue Ray, of which I guess most were only ever masrtered in SD. So is it that Blue Ray accommodates on a single disk multiple episodes of SD series, or, single Feature Film in HD? Cheers Peter From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Thu Jan 8 13:35:06 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:35:06 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Standalone Shot-Change Detector Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE8@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Does anyone make a standalone shot-change detector? We normally use the shot-change output of a DVNR, but what if there's no DVNR in the room? Ideally it would be a HD-SDI unit, but I could live with an SDI unit fed from a down-converter... Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ From steve.simon at snellwilcox.com Thu Jan 8 09:48:09 2009 From: steve.simon at snellwilcox.com (Steve Simon) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:48:09 +0000 Subject: [Tig] RES: primaries only; no scopes Message-ID: <850a72aa69cbb5c6cf7ae5f222191101@snellwilcox.com> I feel an interloper as I have never worked in a Telecine suite, however in a previous life I used to rack cameras (OCP control) at the UK House of Parliament. The control room for this was about 1/4 mile from the House and the cameras are controlled by robotic heads. As a result none of the operators visited the debating chambers from one month to the next. Keeping a mental picture of what colour the rooms where was difficult, espicially as the sun would appear from behind clouds and swing the illumination from tungsten to very blue. I bought a leather wallet from the gift shop in the same green as the bench seats in one chamber but the most reliable method was to compare the person speaking to my portable skintone reference (the back of my hand); a method I was taught by a venerable ex-BBC vision engineer. The skintone match method works very well (IMHO) provided you are of the same ethnic origin as the person you are trying to match... :-) just my 2¢ worth. -Steve From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Thu Jan 8 18:54:10 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:54:10 -0000 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <200901080640_MC3-2-1A61-71D1@compuserve.com> References: <200901080640_MC3-2-1A61-71D1@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCEC@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> There are *some* upconverts, but they're few and far between at the moment. 'Escape from New York' is one, as are the two series of the UK 'Life on Mars' TV series (slowed down to 24P). There's a lovely new 'Pride and Prejudice' release, which was scanned at either 2K or 4K from the S16 negs and looks beautiful. It's presented as 24P, so it's running slightly slower than it was shot, but it looks lovely and has a nice 5.1 sound remix. Steve Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 8 19:04:15 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:04:15 -0200 Subject: [Tig] RES: primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: <850a72aa69cbb5c6cf7ae5f222191101@snellwilcox.com> References: <850a72aa69cbb5c6cf7ae5f222191101@snellwilcox.com> Message-ID: <8A699BB2-325D-4591-A666-54C556E83DB4@colorist.org> On Jan 8, 2009, at 7:48 AM, Steve Simon wrote: > Keeping a mental picture of what colour the rooms where was difficult, > espicially as the sun would appear from behind clouds and swing the > illumination from tungsten to very blue. what you describe is quite interesting as an experiment in constancy, or difference, and how much of which is allowable. I can't imagine your calling in sick and having someone else try to do the same job. > I bought a leather wallet from the gift shop in the same green as > the bench seats in one chamber And by sitting on it, you'd age it the same way, depending on several other (ol)factors.. > but the most reliable method was > to compare the person speaking to my portable skintone reference > (the back of my hand); a method I was taught by a venerable ex-BBC > vision engineer. and the illuminant for the back of your hand would have to be referenced to the camera, monitor, illuminated scene, etc. talk about LUTs.. > The skintone match method works very well (IMHO) provided you are of > the > same ethnic origin as the person you are trying to match... :-) and, as we discussed a month or two ago, gender. Incidentally, have any colorists dealt with the flesh tone of an astronaut who has returned from months in space, or are there UV lamps so the pallor never sets in? Trains always fascinated me, and the NYC subway was of interest, except I couldn't imagine the health of an engineer being very good, except on one line: the Rockaway A train, where a good part of the train's route went along the beach, outside. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com Thu Jan 8 19:09:29 2009 From: peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com (peter stansfield) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:09:29 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> The story with Blu Ray (there's no 'e' in it - we're all 'Americans' now...) is just like everything else 'caveat emptor' ( sorry - I don't know the American for that, but it roughly translates into 'buyer beware') Most recent releases I've bought have been mastered in 1080 and look stunning (Dark Knight, Hellboys, etc) However there are a lot of 'up res-sed' material out there. Interestingly I'm not aware of anyone using Blu Ray to extend the time of SD material - eg to get 10 hours SD per Blu Ray disc I don't know why? - Perhaps if the public is buying a 13 x 1 hr television series they think that they should get four or more discs for 'value for money' Anyway, the main difference I notice with Blu Ray (or HD DVD) over up- ressed SD from my Sony DVD, processed through the farouja engine in my projector, on an 8 foot screen is the sound! - Blu Ray / HD DVD kicks like nothing SD Regards Peter Stansfield Wavecrest Systems Ltd From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Jan 8 19:06:02 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:06:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <200901080640_MC3-2-1A61-71D1@compuserve.com> References: <200901080640_MC3-2-1A61-71D1@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, peter_swinson wrote: > > Gentlemen, this may sound a stupid question, but, are ALL feature films > presented on Blue Ray, HD transfers from HD masters? Or are some/many > up-converts from SD masters? It is difficult to answer for "ALL". > I ask as many recent TV series seem available on Blue Ray, of which I guess > most were only ever masrtered in SD. Most TV series since 2000 have been shot on film, or in HD, even if they were only available for viewing in SD. In the USA, most of the "drama" type programs (from ABC, CBS, NBC, and sometimes even FOX) were broadcast in HD where available. TV drama programs from the 70's and earlier were usually shot on film and so high quality transfers are possible. Almost everything shot in SD is completely unmarketable now. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk Thu Jan 8 19:10:04 2009 From: grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:10:04 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Standalone Shot-Change Detector In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE8@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <15348545E82145B8B591B628233D88D3@Sprocket> Hi Steve, I don't think there is anyone left making one ... Ican get you a pandora SDI one if you want. G Graham Collett Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 8 19:12:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:12:02 -0200 Subject: [Tig] note in Commercial Announcements Message-ID: <33EB61E1-53EE-49EF-B34A-4473A9DB81E4@colorist.org> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Commercial_announcements is the place to put upcoming events that are tied to particular products. This Saturday there is an event in LA. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 8 19:22:40 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:22:40 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> Message-ID: <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> On Jan 8, 2009, at 5:09 PM, peter stansfield wrote: > the farouja engine in my projector, on an 8 foot screen is the > sound! - Blu Ray / HD DVD kicks like nothing SD what is the sound spec for sampling and bit depth on Blu Ray or other formats? for some TV, I prefer near-field monitoring, so that the sound doesn't take over the room. For films, it can be nice to have really good imaging, but personally I'm not a subwoofer aficionado.l -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com Thu Jan 8 20:03:45 2009 From: peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com (peter stansfield) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:03:45 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <8EA57883BC204C948CC024A119926680@Frog> References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> <8EA57883BC204C948CC024A119926680@Frog> Message-ID: <56CDB4EE-14D0-4790-8285-E770FCC4884A@wavecrest-systems.com> Rob Blu-ray supports the following audio formats Linear PCM (LPCM) - up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (mandatory) Dolby Digital (DD) - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory) Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) - extension of Dolby Digital, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional) Dolby TrueHD - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional) DTS Digital Surround - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory) DTS-HD High Resolution Audio - extension of DTS, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional) DTS-HD Master Audio - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional) It's the Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD that get interesting. I'm only decoding into 5.1. but the spatial positioning is so much more accurate than Dolby Digital or ordinary DTS Also, there's none of the 'breathing' that you notice in Dolby Digital. It's not just to do with 'subwoofer boom', and in 'less scientific' terms I put it down to needing FAR less compression to get the Audio (and Video) onto a small SD DVD carrier Regards Peter On 8 Jan 2009, at 19:30, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Jan 8, 2009, at 5:09 PM, peter stansfield wrote: > >> the farouja engine in my projector, on an 8 foot screen is the >> sound! - Blu Ray / HD DVD kicks like nothing SD > > what is the sound spec for sampling and bit depth on Blu Ray or > other formats? > > for some TV, I prefer near-field monitoring, so that the sound > doesn't take over the room. For films, it can be nice to have > really good imaging, but personally I'm not a subwoofer aficionado.l > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Jan 8 20:06:37 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:06:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > what is the sound spec for sampling and bit depth on Blu Ray or other > formats? Blu Ray supports a wide variety of sound formats. The normal Dolby and DTS formats are typically encoded at higher data rates. DTS has ways to encode more sound in a way that older DTS decoders will ignore. There are also completely uncompressed subformats, which are rarely used yet since decoders are not assured to be available (oops!). Regardless, in many ways sound is like images. The dynamic range of the sound can be adjusted so that it is way up, or to more moderate levels. Many people who were very excited about DTS when it was first available were confused since the LFE channel is typically encoded about 5 dB higher than Dolby does. DTS editions were often mixed differently. Listeners failed to grasp that DTS offers better multi-channel phase accuracy since all they noticed was that the exciting parts of the movie were louder and therefore more exciting. Just as we saw when DVD was new, the mastering of Blu-Ray will take more care to make the result sound exiting and fresh. Sooner or later it will likely become dull and muted as many new DVDs have become now. It is possible that recent DVD releases are intentionaly dulled down so that there is more difference when people purchase the Blu-Ray edition. In some cases the soundtrack on DVD and Blu-Ray will be bit-for-bit identical. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Jan 8 20:19:32 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:19:32 -0800 Subject: [Tig] primaries only; no scopes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E3290C8-11A6-4938-815B-53262581F8BD@tedlangdell.com> On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:22 AM, Marc Wielage wrote: > A week later, the client (who was out of state) called to say the > transfers > had never looked better. Thankfully, the post house went under shortly > afterwards, and I gravitated into features. Less gruesome, better pay. Almost ROFL! Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Jan 8 20:29:05 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:29:05 -0700 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> Message-ID: <4F71FA10-E400-4CD3-9BC4-6057229AA8A5@prestodigital.ca> On 8-Jan-09, at 12:09 PM, peter stansfield wrote: > The story with Blu Ray (there's no 'e' in it - we're all > 'Americans' now...) Don't blame the yanks... I believe this one is Japanese. Although possibly influenced... Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From egil.ljostad at nrk.no Thu Jan 8 21:14:46 2009 From: egil.ljostad at nrk.no (=?utf-8?B?RWdpbCBMasO4c3RhZA==?=) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:14:46 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Standalone Shot-Change Detector In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE8@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> References: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE8@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <8592AF2D4CB27742BA017E19908D5A3B330F9B@MAEVS02.felles.ds.nrk.no> We use a filebased shotchange-detector called Re Cut: http://www.videotoolshed.com/?page=products&pID=13 Works on Windows and Mac. It's not HDSI, but can generate the shotlist you want. If that can be at any help. Best Regards Egil Ljøstad _____________________________ NRK, Post Production manager          www.nrk.no Studio/OB Egil Ljøstad, TPEK  please consider the environment before printing this email -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] På vegne av Steve Roberts - Post Production Sendt: 8. januar 2009 14:35 Til: tig at colorist.org Emne: [Tig] Standalone Shot-Change Detector 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== Does anyone make a standalone shot-change detector? We normally use the shot-change output of a DVNR, but what if there's no DVNR in the room? Ideally it would be a HD-SDI unit, but I could live with an SDI unit fed from a down-converter... Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From adrian at autotv.co.uk Thu Jan 8 21:24:44 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 21:24:44 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2009, at 19:22, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > On Jan 8, 2009, at 5:09 PM, peter stansfield wrote: > >> the farouja engine in my projector, on an 8 foot screen is the >> sound! - Blu Ray / HD DVD kicks like nothing SD > > what is the sound spec for sampling and bit depth on Blu Ray or > other formats? > There is a plethora of different audio standards, and not all players support all of them, but the best are "HD" (>48k 16bit) PCM formats (or PCM surround) and the worst are the same as DVD-V. Some features that I've seen have audio bandwidths over 3Mbps (check out the last Pirates of the Caribbean BD, the sound is superb). > -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From mlbnyc at verizon.net Thu Jan 8 21:31:31 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:31:31 -0500 Subject: [Tig] OT: Sound for Picture was Re: tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> Message-ID: ... and I still prefer to listen through two channels on my Magnepan Mini Mags (no affiliation). My apartment neighbors prefer that I do as well. Mike Bittle NYC On Jan 8, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > For films, it can be nice to have really good imaging, but > personally I'm not a subwoofer aficionado.l From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 8 21:35:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:35:35 -0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: Sound for Picture was Re: tig: Blue Ray & HD In-Reply-To: References: <56F82EEF-91B6-4542-88C4-B239B3D88F1E@wavecrest-systems.com> <45E48A9C-AF81-45FA-B742-B613733B597E@colorist.org> Message-ID: my Magnaplanar MIIIs are the best reproducers I have ever heard! I'll have to look at the ones you're talking about- my big system had been in storage for a few years.. On Jan 8, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Michael Bittle wrote: > ... and I still prefer to listen through two channels on my Magnepan > Mini Mags (no affiliation). > -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 8 22:00:20 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:00:20 -0200 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) Message-ID: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> The incoming Obama administration is leaning toward a delay in the previously-mandated analog-to-digital changeover for broadcast TV in the US: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/01/obama-digital-t.html the broadcasters are against any delay, but the coupons providing a 40$ rebate have run out. coupon shortages; broadcasters chomping at the bit; seems an economic impasse. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Jan 8 22:26:12 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:26:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > The incoming Obama administration is leaning toward a delay in the > previously-mandated analog-to-digital changeover for broadcast TV in the US: > http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/01/obama-digital-t.html Obama should just use part of the the $1.5 trillion he is planning to use for jump-starting the econonomy on new 47" chinese TV sets for all of these disadvantaged people. Not everyone is able to afford to pay $60 to convert the fourth black and white portable TV in their home to digital. There will be so much pork that no one will even notice the spending. More realistically, those last 6% who never turn on their TV and therefore somehow missed the hundreds of advertisements, will learn soon enough when (and if) they eventually turn their TV on again. Apparently this John Podesta fellow is not aware that those freed up channels will be a financial jackpot for the federal goverment, as well as be the basis for development of new services (e.g. mobile TV) which will help lead to economic recovery. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 8 22:37:17 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:37:17 -0200 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> Message-ID: <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > More realistically, those last 6% who never turn on their TV and > therefore somehow missed the hundreds of advertisements, will learn > soon enough when (and if) they eventually turn their TV on again. I lived one of the nicest years of my life studying, reading, and hiking, living in Burbank without a TV. 3 Sun boxes, a T1 connection, but no TV. At one point I got a bill from AT&T that I thought was high, for long distance. I called them and complained, and they said, didn't you hear about the plan to switch your plan? and I asked, well, how would I have heard? "TV." I told them I didn't have a TV. The snickering was audible, when I was put on terminal hold. Why must you have a TV? I guess it's a societal law of some kind in the US. > Apparently this John Podesta fellow is not aware that those freed up > channels will be a financial jackpot for the federal goverment, as > well as be the basis for development of new services (e.g. mobile > TV) which will help lead to economic recovery. I start to think that the people who arrive a few meters from my place in the sand on the beach with their TV and cellphones are a virus. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From BTopazio at company3.com Fri Jan 9 00:25:10 2009 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:25:10 -0500 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401B046C1@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> I don't have a TV at home (well, an old CRT and a DVD to watch "Airplane".) No cable, no internet except for a Tether to my Blackberry (which surprisingly is almost as good as DSL) Went for a couple years without a phone (pre-cell). Actually avoided a lot of call-ins from NBC. You get used to it. Real easy. Read a book. You can even repurpose your couch. -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 5:37 PM To: Bob Friesenhahn Cc: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > More realistically, those last 6% who never turn on their TV and > therefore somehow missed the hundreds of advertisements, will learn > soon enough when (and if) they eventually turn their TV on again. I lived one of the nicest years of my life studying, reading, and hiking, living in Burbank without a TV. 3 Sun boxes, a T1 connection, but no TV. At one point I got a bill from AT&T that I thought was high, for long distance. I called them and complained, and they said, didn't you hear about the plan to switch your plan? and I asked, well, how would I have heard? "TV." I told them I didn't have a TV. The snickering was audible, when I was put on terminal hold. Why must you have a TV? I guess it's a societal law of some kind in the US. > Apparently this John Podesta fellow is not aware that those freed up > channels will be a financial jackpot for the federal goverment, as > well as be the basis for development of new services (e.g. mobile > TV) which will help lead to economic recovery. I start to think that the people who arrive a few meters from my place in the sand on the beach with their TV and cellphones are a virus. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 01:21:24 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 23:21:24 -0200 Subject: [Tig] mediawiki<->wikimedia Message-ID: <0E207424-F629-476A-B56C-53DBB5F31845@colorist.org> As most of you know, the TIG http presence operates in sync with the TIG mailinglist, and includes archive searching, a knowledge base of 16 years, and an ongoing commitment to improvement. As TIG administrator/developer, I owe a lot to the mediawiki project as the framework for the TIG, and I try to do what I can to help with release debugging and extension development. In case there are some developers here on the TIG or subscribers who know qualified developers, the following links are for openings in the wikimedia project: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings/Interaction_Designer_(project) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings/Sr._Software_Developer_(project) http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Job_openings/Software_Developer_(project) -- Rob Lingelbach TIG administrator.founder rob at colorist.org From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Fri Jan 9 11:10:50 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 06:10:50 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Message-ID: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> Thanks to everyone for responding, I feel "safer" now in buying features on this system. I agree with Peter Stansfield & others, the audio is certainly better than most regular DVDs. cheers Peter From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 12:49:40 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:49:40 -0200 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401B046C1@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401B046C1@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Message-ID: On Jan 8, 2009, at 10:25 PM, Bill Topazio wrote: > I don't have a TV at home (well, an old CRT and a DVD to watch > "Airplane".) laudable. it would be too cool (and thereby become affectation) for the CRT to be a round b+w. able to do slow scan DX. > No cable, no internet except for a Tether to my Blackberry (which > surprisingly is almost as good as DSL) most of what I do can be done with a DEC VT100 terminal, amber monochrome display. > Went for a couple years without a phone (pre-cell). Actually > avoided a > lot of call-ins from NBC. You get used to it. Real easy. it's really quite nice not to have a cell. > Read a book. You can even repurpose your couch. or play a musical instrument. paint. just don't ever admit to any corporation or the government that you don't have a TV, you'll be locked up. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter.white at uea.ac.uk Fri Jan 9 14:07:18 2009 From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:07:18 +0000 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401B046C1@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Message-ID: <7D7CEE67-74D5-41E1-83CE-8D4ED2304C99@uea.ac.uk> Unfortunately if you don't have a TV in the UK you get a warning letter every 2 weeks asking why you aren't paying your TV Licence. It seems guilty until proven innocent is the case. It makes life much easier to pay the £120 a year, even if you don't want to watch the dross. A nice CRT and Airplane - I concur! Maybe the original Police Squad too... Peter White On 9 Jan 2009, at 12:49, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Jan 8, 2009, at 10:25 PM, Bill Topazio wrote: > >> I don't have a TV at home (well, an old CRT and a DVD to watch >> "Airplane".) > > laudable. it would be too cool (and thereby become affectation) > for the CRT to > be a round b+w. able to do slow scan DX. > >> No cable, no internet except for a Tether to my Blackberry (which >> surprisingly is almost as good as DSL) > > most of what I do can be done with a DEC VT100 terminal, amber > monochrome display. > >> Went for a couple years without a phone (pre-cell). Actually >> avoided a >> lot of call-ins from NBC. You get used to it. Real easy. > > it's really quite nice not to have a cell. > >> Read a book. You can even repurpose your couch. > > or play a musical instrument. paint. > > just don't ever admit to any corporation or the government that you > don't have a TV, you'll be locked up. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rickpags at yahoo.com Fri Jan 9 14:19:38 2009 From: rickpags at yahoo.com (wbpags) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <298659.36119.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> If you get locked up you'll be certain to have a tv, cell phone etc. Ain't life grand! > > just don't ever admit to any corporation or the > government that you > don't have a TV, you'll be locked up. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From cemoz101 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 9 14:59:52 2009 From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] Quad HD? Message-ID: <210478.86415.qm@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi All, It struck me the other day when I read about the "new and improved HD" format of the future: Quad HD ... link here : http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-40883-97.html there are probably way more links on the web ... this is just one of them ... It's very frustrating to see people getting ahead of themselves ... we've only switched to Blu-Ray, HD receivers and 1080P consumer displays it looks like the year 2015 will be filled with more headaches... unless the prophecies of 2012 are true and magnetic poles shift ... wouldn't that be a step back?! Just as you think things are settling in (?) ... we get another format to deal with! Quad HD will probably have 200 different Quad HD Formats and we will probably be required to re-restore features for it, or upscale HD material to Quad HD (I'm sure it will look super!) in a few years and blah blah blah ... Oh I'm fed up already.... Take care! - - - - Cem Ozkilicci Colourist RingSide Creative __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 15:40:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:40:33 -0200 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <7D7CEE67-74D5-41E1-83CE-8D4ED2304C99@uea.ac.uk> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401B046C1@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> <7D7CEE67-74D5-41E1-83CE-8D4ED2304C99@uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <977882F6-3613-4426-8973-58B486BED32E@colorist.org> On Jan 9, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Peter White wrote: > Unfortunately if you don't have a TV in the UK you get a warning > letter every 2 weeks asking why you aren't paying your TV Licence. > > It seems guilty until proven innocent is the case. It makes life > much easier to pay the £120 a year, even if you don't want to watch > the dross. I consider you lucky: the few DVDs I own of TV programs seem to have originated in the UK and include Geoffrey Palmer or John Cleese. > A nice CRT and Airplane - I concur! Maybe the original Police Squad > too... CHPs! it was my entire motivation to move to LA. never a raindrop, always these interesting people in their cars, and a killer theme song. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Stn3 at aol.com Fri Jan 9 17:20:15 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:20:15 -0800 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> Message-ID: <46585BC3F181448FB4D82023B102F64A@DESKTOP> This is not a new issue. The whole idea of a forced date for the change-over was stupid from the very start. When congress mandated that all new TV would have to include a digital tuner, the problem would have taken care of itself as older sets are replaced by new digital models. Yes, it would have taken 10 to 15 years, but at some future date, the number of working analogue sets would have been reduced, and the change over would have been smooth and sensible. But there are other issues at work here. The signal coverage of digital channels does not even come close to that of the analogue VHF channels. Such channels would have to employ a massive number of translators to get the same coverage they get now with just one transmitter. Advertising rates would probably suffer with a smaller viewing audience. The other is quality. Yes, digital channels do look great. But with analogue broadcasting, the viewer might accept a less than perfect looking picture since they can still see and hear the broadcast. With the all or nothing nature of digital, the viewer is not going to watch a borderline signal that keeps dropping out, and is filled with digital artifacts. With a set-top antenna, you can get this type of failure and only be 10 miles from the transmitter. It has been estimated that more than 1.5 million persons living in the metro Los Angeles area still depend on over-the-air signals for their television viewing. Does it make sense to disenfranchise this large a segment of the viewing audience? I am in favor of letting the system die a natural death. Unfortunately, they are only talking a delay here which might not resolve much of the problem. Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 2:00 PM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== The incoming Obama administration is leaning toward a delay in the previously-mandated analog-to-digital changeover for broadcast TV in the US: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/01/obama-digital-t.html From mlbnyc at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 16:34:09 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <7D7CEE67-74D5-41E1-83CE-8D4ED2304C99@uea.ac.uk> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> <508D6316-CC4E-4175-B6C5-9D251C105E8E@colorist.org> <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC63401B046C1@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> <7D7CEE67-74D5-41E1-83CE-8D4ED2304C99@uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5C7F0D6C-AB78-4B1E-B02D-232271634698@verizon.net> I myself rotate through boxed sets of The Avengers, The Prisoner and any Mel Brooks movie..... Mike On Jan 9, 2009, at 9:07 AM, Peter White wrote: > A nice CRT and Airplane - I concur! Maybe the original Police Squad > too... From cinema at supermegaactionplus.com Fri Jan 9 18:54:25 2009 From: cinema at supermegaactionplus.com (Jamie Fraser) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:54:25 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Recovering Colour Information from B&W Film In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE0@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> References: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCDA@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE0@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: Thanks Steve, worth bringing up again then! Hope you're getting through those photos, Rob... :) What are you using to grade the images? I've given Lightroom and Aperture a try, but keep going back to using Photoshop in the end. Jamie Super Mega Action Plus, UK http://supermegaactionplus.com On 7 Jan 2009, at 15:04, Steve Roberts - Post Production wrote: > > > As promised, here are detail of how we used the new Colour Recovery > process as part of the restoration of one episode from the 1973 Doctor > Who story 'Planet of the Daleks'. > > http://www.purpleville.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rtwebsite/DalekWarDVD.htm > > Steve > > From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Jan 9 18:54:55 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:54:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] digital delay (slightly OT) In-Reply-To: <46585BC3F181448FB4D82023B102F64A@DESKTOP> References: <78A94151-FB5E-4138-90F3-93074D582626@colorist.org> <46585BC3F181448FB4D82023B102F64A@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > > This is not a new issue. The whole idea of a forced date for the change-over > was stupid from the very start. When congress mandated that all new TV would > have to include a digital tuner, the problem would have taken care of itself > as older sets are replaced by new digital models. Yes, it would have taken > 10 to 15 years, but at some future date, the number of working analogue sets > would have been reduced, and the change over would have been smooth and > sensible. It has been quite a long time already. I know people using 20+ year old TV sets and they would use them another 10 or 20 years if there is still a bit of a picture. They just don't go away by themselves. All I can say regarding analog TV is die, die, die ... > The other is quality. Yes, digital channels do look great. But with analogue > broadcasting, the viewer might accept a less than perfect looking picture > since they can still see and hear the broadcast. With the all or nothing > nature of digital, the viewer is not going to watch a borderline signal that > keeps dropping out, and is filled with digital artifacts. With a set-top > antenna, you can get this type of failure and only be 10 miles from the > transmitter. Under the right conditions, you could probably have a failure at even just a mile. I seem to be a good 20 miles from the antennas here and without any problems (outdoor antenna on a mast) the past eight years. However, set-top antennas don't work at all here for analog, with only one or two channels managing to produce a faint fuzzy picture after considerable coaxing. > It has been estimated that more than 1.5 million persons living in the metro > Los Angeles area still depend on over-the-air signals for their television > viewing. Does it make sense to disenfranchise this large a segment of the > viewing audience? You are assuming that these 1.5 million persons will be unable to receive digital transmissions. It does seem that Los Angeles has issues, but most of these are likely to be political rather than technical. Most problems in California are self-imposed. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 19:35:31 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:35:31 -0200 Subject: [Tig] adjusting notebook displays (was: Re: Recovering) In-Reply-To: References: <200901021212_MC3-2-18EB-636@compuserve.com> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCDA@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCE0@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BCED4F6-23EF-435B-9390-0F751057915B@colorist.org> On Jan 9, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Jamie Fraser wrote: > Hope you're getting through those photos, Rob... :) What are you > using to grade the images? I've given Lightroom and Aperture a try, > but keep going back to using Photoshop in the end. I too usually end up with Photoshop but I'd like to spend a day or two with a good thick expert's guide. I also use GraphicsMagick, LightZone, CinePaint, and Gimp.. recently I made some hardware upgrades to the MacBook Pro and lost the careful calibration and color profiles setups I'd already done. For some reason I haven't figured out yet, I can't get the display back to D65 using the Apple System Preferences Profile management.. so I'm for the moment stuck with around 8.5k blue. There must be a better way, using ColorSync? though it seems to deal with raw numbers, whereas I need a realtime adjustment tool. After losing the colorspace tweaking I'd done with help from Bob Friesenhahn a couple of months ago, I had to redo it, and it's good practice. I remember Dave Tosh saying, several years ago, that there would eventually be the job title "compressionist" to add to colorist. I'd also include "colorspace analyst." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 19:45:47 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:45:47 -0200 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (with apologies): we're in the navy Message-ID: <8E0F33A6-C34E-40C1-8BBD-6ADAA53ACB7A@colorist.org> If you spend some time reading the industry magazines, particularly the ones out of LA, you realize there's no "hiring" or "joining" going on with artists or technologists and their employers; rather, that they "come aboard." The metaphor is a really tired one, and begs the idea, are there any facilities that maintain themselves at sea? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Nick at LipFix.com Fri Jan 9 20:36:15 2009 From: Nick at LipFix.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:36:15 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> I normally only "read" TIG emails - and learn a great deal from all of you, so "thank you" - but as an engineer I am compelled to comment on the recent opinions regarding the superior audio quality of BlueRay. I assume those comments were based on the new HDMI HD Audio formats which provide 8 channels of uncompressed 192 KHz audio and not s/pdif connection between the player and av receiver since a s/pdif connection would be identical to regular DVD's. There is much debate as to whether the new HD Audio formats are of any real benefit - whether anyone can "really' hear any difference or not ". My engineering judgment has always said "not" but a lot of people buy into the marketing hype and believe they can tell the difference but I think a double blind study will eventually reveal the same thing the following study revealed about 192 KHz sampled SACD and DVD-A Audio: That all the industry hype over SACD and DVD-A Audio was total snake oil and marketing hype and no one can really hear the difference in 192 KHz 24 bit sampling and 44.1 KHz 16 bit sampling. This double blind study I refer to was published in the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number 9). Two veteran audio journalists, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present the breakthrough paper proving beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, conducted over a period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there's no audible difference between the original CD standard ("Red Book") and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD. The report does mention one thing that may also benefit these new HDMI formats - even if they have no "technical" advantages - and that is the producers who mistakenly believed that SACD and DVD-A Audio were "technically superior formats" may have taken more care in "production of the sound" recorded for SACD and DVD-A under the incorrect assumption that the differences could be heard due to the superior format and that - not any technical advantage of 192 KHz sampling - could make them sound better. If similar steps are taken in production of Blue Ray sound tracks (because producers believe the format is superior) the benefit should accrue to both HD Audio as well as s/pdif audio outputs. The study I have referenced is purely "two channel sound" and not multichannel compressed audio as Dolby Digital and DTS over s/pdif both are so I acknowledge there will be those who will still argue the "uncompressed" HD Audio is superior. While I have no similar double blind study to refute that, my personal belief is that the Dolby engineers who chose to boost the sample rate from 44.1 to 48 KHz to accommodate DD 5.1 compression did so with the same objective as the developers of the Redbook (CD) standard and succeeded as they did in reproducing everything that any human can hear in the s/pdif format. And certainly DTS's 96 KHz is overkill. When you consider the redundancy in multichannel audio - and even how little audio there is on rear channels most of the time - it seems insane to allocate 192 KHz to them. HD Audio requires more bandwidth than HD video which is ludicrous. But regardless of whether you believe you can hear a difference due to the separate uncompressed channels the double blind study I referenced proves those 8 channels "could have been" 44.1 KHz and not the absurd 192 KHz audio as HD Audio requires so I hope that makes my point that the new formats are "largely" if not 100% marketing hype and have no sound technical justification. -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of peter_swinson Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 6:11 AM To: tig Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== Thanks to everyone for responding, I feel "safer" now in buying features on this system. I agree with Peter Stansfield & others, the audio is certainly better than most regular DVDs. cheers Peter _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From jfmann at optimum.net Fri Jan 9 20:39:17 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:39:17 -0500 Subject: [Tig] www.savethebiz.org Message-ID: <000001c9729a$57a87e40$06f97ac0$@net> Below is an email from Robert Bruce McCleery a DP and a client. I would urge all to take a look. Then remember to only take anti-depression drugs that are prescribed by your doctor. Regards, Jim Mann Postworks >From Robert: I am sending you a link to a video spot that I shot recently that addresses what an actors' strike would mean to the film industry. It was done on an all-volunteer basis, including a large experienced crew and some well known actors, and we're very proud of the end result. My only wish as the DP is that the end result weren't so bright, so do me a favor and crank your brightness on your computer screen way down and then watch it. It went live today at www.savethebiz.org - check it out. Best, Bruce Robert Bruce McCleery wendell2k at mac.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 20:46:51 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:46:51 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> Message-ID: <7EF5FDE1-9AAB-4454-B8A4-651B0205BFAE@colorist.org> On Jan 9, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > > no one can really hear the difference in 192 KHz 24 bit sampling and > 44.1 > KHz 16 bit sampling. I need to re-educate myself on this, but can say that most definitely as of 10 years ago, when I listened on a reference-quality system, there were obvious differences to my ears in dynamic range on classical music between a consumer CD and a vinyl limited-edition 'master' of the same session. and, as of 10 years ago, there was a brittle quality to CDs that caused me headaches when listening with headphones, that didn't happen when listening to vinyl on headphones. but there could certainly be other factors at work. I should read the studies you refer to Nick. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 20:49:15 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:49:15 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> Message-ID: <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> On Jan 9, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > This double blind study I refer to was published in the September > 2007 issue > of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number > 9). Two > veteran audio journalists, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present > the > breakthrough paper proving beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally > hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, > conducted over a > period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a > high-end > SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a > 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there's no audible > difference > between the original CD standard ("Red Book") and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM > or > 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD. where can we read about the above on the net? Who were the participants in the study? If they were not musicians with developed ears, can we trust the results? I'm sure these answers are covered in the study. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 20:59:15 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:59:15 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> Message-ID: <22A334CB-C930-461D-89B0-57F8FEB022D0@colorist.org> On Jan 9, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > where can we read about the above on the net? Who were the > participants in the study? > > If they were not musicians with developed ears, can we trust the > results? I'm sure these > answers are covered in the study. aha, here's a clue, from http://www.aes.org/journal/online/JAES_V55/jaes.cfm?file=JAES_V55_9/JAES_V55_9_ALL.pdf note the triple asterisks (mine). this is a very large loophole, if I may say so. ---- Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback (PDF-615KB) (HI-RES PDF-9.4MB) E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran 775 Conventional wisdom asserts that the wider bandwidth and dynamic range of SACD and DVD-A make them of audibly higher quality than the CD format. A carefully controlled double-blind test with many experienced listeners showed no ability to hear any differences between formats. ***High-resolution audio discs were still judged to be of superior quality because sound engineers have more freedom to make them that way.*** There is no evidence that perceived quality has anything to do with additional resolution or bandwidth. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Jan 9 21:03:13 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:03:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (with apologies): we're in the navy In-Reply-To: <8E0F33A6-C34E-40C1-8BBD-6ADAA53ACB7A@colorist.org> References: <8E0F33A6-C34E-40C1-8BBD-6ADAA53ACB7A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <25813FB9-AA62-4F3C-9182-DEBD3856CC1F@tedlangdell.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 11:45 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > are there any facilities that maintain themselves at sea? Or are on trains or other large passenger transportation vehicles like busses? Bring the grading to the client! That would be cool concept. With trains it gives another meaning to "grade crossing." Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From fred at cineric.com Fri Jan 9 21:27:44 2009 From: fred at cineric.com (Fred Mushel) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:27:44 -0500 Subject: [Tig] blu ray dvd sound Message-ID: All I can say is that the digital sound from my LaserDisc of the IMAX film "The Dream is Alive" blows away the the sound on the DVD version. The dynamic range seems compressed on DVD, while the LaserDisc audio seems to convey the sound a lot better. Note: I have been to two space shuttle launches. Fred Mushel Director of Engineering Cineric, Inc. 630 Ninth Avenue 5th Floor New York, NY 10036 212-586-4822 ext. 9401 (Main) 646-502-9401 (Direct) 212-586-2343 (Fax) fred at cineric.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 9 21:23:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:23:34 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > My engineering judgment has always said "not" but a lot of people > buy into > the marketing hype and believe they can tell the difference. by permission from the bossa-nova artist, producer, composer, and guitarist Oscar Castro-Neves: "Rob - people that I trust for their ability to perceive quality of recording tell me that there is a difference - both in sonic quality and perceived "space" of dynamic range." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Jan 9 22:29:08 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:29:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > where can we read about the above on the net? Who were the participants in > the study? > > If they were not musicians with developed ears, can we trust the > results? I'm sure these answers are covered in the study. These are probably the same sort of people who can't tell the difference between upconverted DVD and HD. However, if you provide these same people with HD for a sufficient amount of time, they can immediately tell the difference. This has more to do with how the brain perceives the world than what the sensory organs are capable of. With decent quality audio equipment and source material, the primary factor influencing audio quality is the listening room. That is not something you can usually purchase at your local electronics store. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From p_ashton at hotmail.co.uk Fri Jan 9 23:18:25 2009 From: p_ashton at hotmail.co.uk (P Ashton) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 23:18:25 +0000 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (with apologies): we're in the navy Message-ID: Technicolor had the grading train sorted 90 years ago: http://members.tripod.com/~cinefan/techcara.jpg Surely they should bring it back and add 1 car onto each commuter train. Deliver the prints to the cinema as they're processed. Cheers, Phil. Disclaimer: I used to grade for Technicolor, though never whilst on a moving vehicle. From: Ted Langdell Or are on trains or other large passenger transportation vehicles like busses? Bring the grading to the client! That would be cool concept. With trains it gives another meaning to "grade crossing." _________________________________________________________________ Are you a PC?  Upload your PC story and show the world http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/ From wwerks at verizon.net Sat Jan 10 04:04:38 2009 From: wwerks at verizon.net (Geoff Wheeler) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:04:38 -0500 Subject: [Tig] slightly OT (with apologies): we're in the navy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49681E56.6050107@verizon.net> We did our network morning show from a train, both moving and stationary, for a week last fall. Color correction was via three Avid 'work'stations, but we could have added another car and devoted it to CC, and BRRE, for that matter. If there's film-to-tape, and tape-to-tape, is material captured on disk and corrected to NAS bit-by-bit? Already red-faced, Geoff. P Ashton wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > > Technicolor had the grading train sorted 90 years ago: > http://members.tripod.com/~cinefan/techcara.jpg > > Surely they should bring it back and add 1 car onto each commuter train. Deliver the prints to the cinema as they're processed. > > Cheers, > Phil. > > Disclaimer: I used to grade for Technicolor, though never whilst on a moving vehicle. > > > > From: Ted Langdell Or are on trains or other large passenger transportation vehicles like busses? Bring the grading to the client! That would be cool concept. With trains it gives another meaning to "grade crossing." > _________________________________________________________________ > Are you a PC? Upload your PC story and show the world > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465942/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > > From Nick at LipFix.com Sat Jan 10 06:34:01 2009 From: Nick at LipFix.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:34:01 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> Message-ID: <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> You have to be a member of the AES to access the actual publication but this link summarizes the paper published in the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number 9): www.theaudiocritic.com. Click on Web 'Zine. Use the link at the bottom of the page that comes up. Then scroll to the article posted in October 2007 (Redbook vs. Hi-Rez). The following is a copy of that synopsis: Redbook vs. Hi-Rez peteraczel | 17 October, 2007 10:19 Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies. In the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number 9), two veteran audio journalists who aren't professional engineers, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present a breakthrough paper that contradicts all previous inputs by the engineering community. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, conducted over a period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there's no audible difference between the original CD standard ("Red Book") and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD. Please note that this is not just a disagreement with the cloud-cuckoo-land tweako audiophiles but also with the highest engineering authorities, such as the formidable J. Robert Stuart of England's Meridian Audio and others with similar credentials. That the Meyer-Moran tests leave no room for continued disagreements is an occasion for the most delicious Schadenfreude on the part of electronic soundalike advocates like yours truly. I stated my suspicions that SACD was no improvement over CD seven years ago, in my review of the first Sony SACD player, the SCD-1, in Issue No. 26 of The Audio Critic (downloadable from this website). I could hear no difference between the CD and SACD layers of the same disc when stopping the player and switching over, instant toggling between the two layers being impossible. Now, Meyer and Moran are careful to point out that the new hi-rez formats generally sound better than standard CDs, but not because the processing technology is superior. The hi-rez discs are aimed at a more sophisticated market, and therefore the recording sessions and production techniques tend to be more sophisticated, more puristic, in terms of microphoning, compression, editing, etc. The use of a standard 16-bit/44.1-kHz processor as a "bottleneck" in the Meyer-Moran tests eliminated this concern. Comparing the CD and SACD layers of the same disc also eliminates it. It should also be pointed out that more bits and a higher sampling rate in recording are still a good thing because they permit a little bit of unavoidable sloppiness, so that you can still comfortably end up with 16-bit dynamics and 20 kHz bandwidth. Meyer and Moran do not say that 14 or 15 bits in a truncated CD are just as good as 20. What they say is that spot-on 16-bit/44.1-kHz processing is as good as it gets, audibly. Finally, let's not confuse the Meyer-Moran tests with stereo vs. surround sound comparisons. All of the above has to do with the two channels, left and right, of stereo recordings, nothing else. The musical value of additional surround channels is something I have been wondering about lately, but that's an altogether different subject. If you search the AES site their short synopsis of the research paper is: Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran 775 Conventional wisdom asserts that the wider bandwidth and dynamic range of SACD and DVD-A make them of audibly higher quality than the CD format. A carefully controlled double-blind test with many experienced listeners showed no ability to hear any differences between formats. High-resolution audio discs were still judged to be of superior quality because sound engineers have more freedom to make them that way. There is no evidence that perceived quality has anything to do with additional resolution or bandwidth. -----Original Message----- From: Rob Lingelbach [mailto:rob at colorist.org] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 3:49 PM To: Nick Johnson Cc: 'tig' Subject: Re: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio On Jan 9, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > This double blind study I refer to was published in the September > 2007 issue > of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society (Volume 55, Number > 9). Two > veteran audio journalists, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present > the > breakthrough paper proving beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally > hundreds of double-blind listening tests at matched levels, > conducted over a > period of more than a year, that the two-channel analog output of a > high-end > SACD/DVD-A player undergoes no audible change when passed through a > 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A processor. That means there's no audible > difference > between the original CD standard ("Red Book") and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM > or > 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD. where can we read about the above on the net? Who were the participants in the study? If they were not musicians with developed ears, can we trust the results? I'm sure these answers are covered in the study. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Sat Jan 10 10:46:35 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 05:46:35 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio Message-ID: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> Nick Johnson wrote "I normally only "read" TIG emails - and learn a great deal from all of you, "so "thank you" - but as an engineer I am compelled to comment on the recent "opinions regarding the superior audio quality of BlueRay. I assume those "comments were based on the new HDMI HD Audio formats which provide 8 "channels of uncompressed 192 KHz audio and not s/pdif connection between the "player and av receiver since a s/pdif connection would be identical to "regular DVD's. Well Nick, I guess it might, with me, all be in the mind, especially as I am still only listening to 5.1 via a Denon AVC-A1D Amp & Decoder, via the Blu Ray analog feed! I admit I am much more a, how good is the visual image, than, can I tell the difference between monocrystalline copper speaker cables, 44.1K vs 192K sampling or 16 bit vs 24 bit,. Although my buddy, Mr Nagra Kudelski UK would argue that used properly there is a significant advantage to 24 bit over 16 bit. He does relate stories of how some "audiophiles" will take a CD signal, up it to 192K sampling then bring it back to 44.1K and swear it improves the quality. Likewise he knows of others who take a digital audio source, record it to a Nagra T (Analog) then back to digits and say it sounds better. I guess it all depends on how you like your sound. Now I must be off to re coat my phono plugs and sockets with 22 carat gold! Standing by for Flak Peter From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sat Jan 10 18:43:11 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:43:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: > Redbook vs. Hi-Rez > peteraczel | 17 October, 2007 10:19 > Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats > Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original > 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound > quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies. The wording of the synopsis (and jumbling of SACD/DVD-A) immediately makes the results of the study suspect. I still recall attending the Hollywood Post tech retreat a few years back where a fellow of esteemed technical stature demonstrated that we could not see the difference between 1920 rez and 800 rez material by showing original content with 1920 and 800 vertical lines on the conference projectors. Since we could not see the difference, it was suggested that down-rezing analog outputs of set top boxes would be ok. However, the conference projectors were only capable of 900 lines of resolution (at best) so of course we could not see a difference. SACD and DVD-A are remarkably different technologies. Full performance from SACD requires original recording and mastering using its unique bit stream approach. It is quite possible that content obtained from SACD or DVD-A might sound the same as the accompanying CD because the actual mastering may be identical to the CD. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From spirit4k at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 19:29:22 2009 From: spirit4k at gmail.com (Craig Nichols) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:29:22 -0800 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> References: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <5c9ca6590901101129m3939ede6lc4eacaaf7dcc6118@mail.gmail.com> Gotta love that tape hiss! ;-) It all reminds me of a presentation at, if I remember right, 1978 AES convention in LA where a paper was presented warning of the evils of digital over analog. The presenter swore that listening to digital audio messed with the central nervous system! Unfortunately I don't remember his name, but part of is presentation was to have "random" audience members extend their arm to the side and try to resist him pushing their arm down. Then, he had them put on headphones with a digital audio feed (16 bit 44.1khz CD), and they could no longer resist his downward push! It sort of reminded me of seeing a tent based faith healer like in "The Curious Case Of Benjamin Button". Anyway, if there is anything to this central nervous system weakening, I wonder if the same guy is out there preaching about the evils of watching digital video? Oops, gotta go put my eyeballs back in their sockets! I've been seeing too many digital artifacts on Time Warner Cable. ;-) Craig Nichols Tech Support Engineer - DFA Digital Film Technolgy Weiterstadt craig.nichols at dft-film.com From njohnson at sc.rr.com Sat Jan 10 19:58:46 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:58:46 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: <047301c9735d$d9428d60$8bc7a820$@rr.com> What they actually did in the tests if I understand it correctly was to take the DVD-A and SACD audio and pass it through a filter reducing it to 16 bit 44.1 KHz audio and their exhaustive double blind tests over the course of a year proved the difference in the original SACD and DVD-A audio and the "supposedly" degraded audio created from it with only 16 bit 44.1 KHz resolution could not be detected. Again, as I mentioned initially, DVD-A and SACD may indeed "sound better" but the study proved that the reason will not be due to the "format" whether 192 KHz 24 bit like DVD-A or SACD's 1-bit/2.8442-MHz. In my first post I also mentioned that if this new HD Audio format causes producers to invest in higher quality audio productions (as was the case with the more expensive DVD-A and SACD recordings) the benefit should accrue to both the HDMI HD Audio as well as the s/pdif versions of such soundtracks. From njohnson at sc.rr.com Sat Jan 10 20:25:49 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:25:49 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> References: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <047401c97361$a0ae28c0$e20a7a40$@rr.com> Peter, No flak from me as I agree 100%. There are so many "subjective" things that can influence our "perception" of sound quality. Even the "distortion" of vacuum tube amplifiers was (and still is by some) preferred over much "better" solid state amps. I put "better" in quotes since that depends upon whether you were accustomed to the distortion and prefer it. You mention up converting 44.1 KHz or 48 KHz sampled audio to 192 KHz to expose how ridiculous such an action could be but ironically that's exactly what is being done to produce "most" 192 KHz HD Audio. My oldest son graduated from Vancouver Film School's program in "Sound Design and Editing for Multimedia" and he says almost nothing is actually captured at 192 KHz and not a great deal is even captured at 96 KHz. 48 KHz is still the most common sampling rate for initial capture. Of course that is academic if we believe the study proving no one can hear the difference but it underscores how preposterous these new 192 KHz formats are. We're capturing audio at 48 or 96 KHz and up converting it to 192 KHz for delivery and for what reason? I also fully agree that the higher resolution images of HD are well worth the increased bandwidth required. But we had already achieved that with DVI before HDMI came along with its incredible complexity and no improvement (above DVI's existing 1080P resolution). All HDMI gives us (that DVI didn't or couldn't have) is this absurd "8 channels of uncompressed 192KHz audio" requiring more processing power than the HD video. Of course it eliminated a cable but that's hardly worth the ridiculous complexity that has created incredible incompatibilities consumers often cannot solve. But, that's exactly its purpose isn't it? To be so incredibly demanding we all need new hardware - new a/v receivers and new displays - every few years to handle it. As an engineer who has spent his career in the computer business I find it appalling that the a/v industry can stand by and allow this to happen when there is no genuine benefit to the consumer. Have we forgotten what sound is and the physics imposing finite frequency limitations not only on its transmission through air but within our ear itself? Do we ignore the fact that almost no microphones and even fewer speakers can go above 20 KHz (which would only require 40 KHz sampling to reproduce)? It seems we have and once we are in the domain of the electrical analog of the actual sound where no similar limitations are imposed we apparently feel unconstrained by physical reality. I won't be surprised when 384 KHz sampling is being hyped even though the best tweeters may still reproduce only the inaudible 35 KHz sound they can today (for which 70 KHz sampling would be adequate). But when you look into who is behind HD Audio (Intel) it is clear that they have taken a page from the computer industry's playbook and their intent is to inject the same kind of "guaranteed obsolescence" computers have enjoyed "guaranteeing sales" since their inception! At least with computers there was "usually" some "actual" benefit with each new model the enhanced software forced us to buy. From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 10 20:35:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:35:03 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> On Jan 10, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: >> Redbook vs. Hi-Rez >> peteraczel | 17 October, 2007 10:19 >> Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats >> Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original >> 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound >> quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies. > > The wording of the synopsis (and jumbling of SACD/DVD-A) immediately > makes the results of the study suspect. There are several flags that would give any researcher pause: the words "Proven," "incontrovertible," (see below); "exactly" and the "double-blind" argot. *incontrovertible: not able to be denied or disputed : incontrovertible proof.* Those are very strong words. it seems like someone is hammering a point. As Hamlet said, "Thou doth protest too much." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 10 21:00:51 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:00:51 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <047301c9735d$d9428d60$8bc7a820$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <047301c9735d$d9428d60$8bc7a820$@rr.com> Message-ID: <407D8B95-90B2-465B-9D24-34A0AC441366@colorist.org> On Jan 10, 2009, at 5:58 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > > year proved the difference in the original SACD and DVD-A audio and > the > "supposedly" degraded audio created from it with only 16 bit 44.1 KHz > resolution could not be detected. could not be detected by whom? the masses, who prefer a constant wash of over-produced and over-limited commercial recordings, or, could perhaps there have been a carefully-chosen group of musicians and conductors, working with acoustic instruments in a recording expressive of harmonic detail and very demanding dynamic range? > Again, as I mentioned initially, DVD-A and SACD may indeed "sound > better" > but the study proved that the reason will not be due to the "format" > whether > 192 KHz 24 bit like DVD-A or SACD's 1-bit/2.8442-MHz. It's one study, it needs to be duplicated by others, and in my humble experience the conclusion does not fit with my own experience. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 10 21:12:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:12:02 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <047401c97361$a0ae28c0$e20a7a40$@rr.com> References: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> <047401c97361$a0ae28c0$e20a7a40$@rr.com> Message-ID: <915EE6C1-D76F-40F9-9B0F-0FF09C61B510@colorist.org> On Jan 10, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > > appalling that the a/v industry can stand by and allow this to > happen when > there is no genuine benefit to the consumer. Have we forgotten what > sound > is and the physics imposing finite frequency limitations not only on > its > transmission through air but within our ear itself? When I listen to a master vinyl recording of a Bach concerto on a reference analog system, and compare it with a CD of the same session, mastered by Ludwig and using the best player available through the same analog system, there's a huge difference. But I'm not a consumer, I'm a listener. :) Lest I sound effete, I did a test under the following conditions: CD player: Luxman (i think i have that right) Turntable: AR with dampening and high-end cartridge Preamp: Dynaco Amplifier: Bryston, 1000 watts Speakers: Magneplanar, MIII Vinyl: Rolling Stones, Aftermath. CD: Rolling Stones, Aftermath. stunning, the difference. could be due to the mastering differences. The musicians I respect tell me they get a headache listening to 44kHz 16-bit sampling in headphones, whereas analog or higher sampling rates improve the situation significantly. And, CDs sound brittle. to me. :) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sat Jan 10 21:34:00 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:34:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <047401c97361$a0ae28c0$e20a7a40$@rr.com> References: <200901100546_MC3-2-1A3F-F7AB@compuserve.com> <047401c97361$a0ae28c0$e20a7a40$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: > No flak from me as I agree 100%. There are so many "subjective" things that > can influence our "perception" of sound quality. Even the "distortion" of > vacuum tube amplifiers was (and still is by some) preferred over much > "better" solid state amps. I put "better" in quotes since that depends upon > whether you were accustomed to the distortion and prefer it. The distorted audio may in fact be the correct audio for old recordings since the old recordings were mastered with the distortion in place. Similar to video, the electrical signal is not what the human experienced. You may notice that "remasters" of old recordings now have a fuller sort of sound whereas the original digital master often had a gritty flat sort of sound which dissapointed most audiophiles. The original digital master failed to accurately capture the "distorted" sound from tube amplifier and speakers that the person doing the audio mastering based his decisions on. > and not a great deal is even captured at 96 KHz. 48 KHz is still the most > common sampling rate for initial capture. Of course that is academic if we > believe the study proving no one can hear the difference but it underscores > how preposterous these new 192 KHz formats are. We're capturing audio at 48 > or 96 KHz and up converting it to 192 KHz for delivery and for what reason? The 192 KHz formats are not therefore proven to be preposterous. What is preposterous is capturing at 48 KHz, upsampling to 192 KHz 24-bit, and then selling the audio as 192 KHz 24-bit grade audio. Later someone takes that purchased audio and proves that downsampling back to 48KHz 16 bit does not cause a noticeable difference, and therefore declares that humans are unable to hear a difference with 192 KHz 24-bit sampling. > As an engineer who has spent his career in the computer business I find it > appalling that the a/v industry can stand by and allow this to happen when > there is no genuine benefit to the consumer. Have we forgotten what sound The a/v industry depends on customers periodically purchasing new hardware. Otherwise it would go defunct since audio equipment can easily last 20 years or more. > is and the physics imposing finite frequency limitations not only on its > transmission through air but within our ear itself? Do we ignore the fact > that almost no microphones and even fewer speakers can go above 20 KHz > (which would only require 40 KHz sampling to reproduce)? It seems we have Previously I mentioned that the listening room is a primary influence on the listening experience. Part of that listening experience is the spectral properties of the sound which can not be directly heard, but do produce useful sound dimension we can hear after re-combination and interacting with the room. > But when you look into who is behind HD Audio (Intel) it is clear that they > have taken a page from the computer industry's playbook and their intent is > to inject the same kind of "guaranteed obsolescence" computers have enjoyed > "guaranteeing sales" since their inception! It seems that video and digital cinema are now entering this treadmill. It helps assure job security for most people here. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 10 23:13:56 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:13:56 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: <34DD4708-E568-41DA-AF09-4AC09D8D3BA1@colorist.org> On Jan 10, 2009, at 4:34 AM, Nick Johnson wrote: > > The following is a copy of that synopsis: > > Redbook vs. Hi-Rez > peteraczel | 17 October, 2007 10:19 > Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats > Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original > 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound > quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies. > In the September 2007 issue of the Journal of the Audio Engineering > Society > (Volume 55, Number 9), two veteran audio journalists who aren't > professional > engineers, E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran, present a breakthrough > paper > that contradicts all previous inputs by the engineering community. > They > prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, with literally hundreds of double- > blind > listening tests at matched levels, conducted over a period of more > than a > year, that the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A > player > undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/ > D/A > processor. That means there's no audible difference between the > original CD > standard ("Red Book") and 24-bit/192-kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD. We need to find out how these tests were conducted, under what kind of control, and it's dismaying to see all the hype in the language ("literally hundreds" - that's marketing-speak; "breakthrough paper;" "double-blind...matched levels" - what does that really mean? "beyond a shadow of a doubt" - marketspeak again.. "Proven" - I highly doubt it, and could it be that the double-blind listeners are used to hearing MP3 on their iPODs ?). And the conclusion, that there's no audible difference between Redbook CD and PCM, is definitely flawed, as Possibly Formidable Musicians know. > > Please note that this is not just a disagreement with the cloud- > cuckoo-land > tweako audiophiles ahem. that's a really cheap shot, and has no place in an engineering study. > but also with the highest engineering authorities, such > as the formidable J. Robert Stuart of England's Meridian Audio and > others > with similar credentials. The Formidable, indeed. And others with similar credentials- if they wrote the synopsis, I suspect they're salesmen, if you read carefully. > That the Meyer-Moran tests leave no room for > continued disagreements is an occasion for the most delicious > Schadenfreude > on the part of electronic soundalike advocates like yours truly. I > stated my > suspicions that SACD was no improvement over CD seven years ago, in my > review of the first Sony SACD player, the SCD-1, in Issue No. 26 of > The > Audio Critic (downloadable from this website). I could hear no > difference > between the CD and SACD layers of the same disc what disc, what music, mixed and mastered by whom under what conditions? > What they say is that spot-on > 16-bit/44.1-kHz processing is as good as it gets, audibly. let's get a complete report on how these journalists and Formidable People conducted the literally hundreds of double-blind Proven results that resulted in their Breakthrough Paper beyond a shadow of a doubt. > A > carefully controlled double-blind test with many experienced listeners "many experienced listeners." that's gobbledygook. sorry for disagreeing with more than a little vehemence. :) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From njohnson at sc.rr.com Sat Jan 10 22:57:42 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:57:42 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> Message-ID: <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> I just want to be sure everyone knows those weren't "my" words (incontrovertible, etc.) but were quoted from the source I referenced. I realize "everything" can be challenged. But I do "personally" believe the AES study since it is consistent with my understanding and what I have always felt. If the Nyquist Theorem has been disproven any time in the last 40 years (when I graduated in engineering), I missed it. If microphones can't capture over 20 KHz and speakers can't recreate sound above 20 KHz then I see no point in sampling above 40 KHz whether we are capable of hearing "original sound" higher than that or not. All sound reproduction probably suffers compared to the original sound and better transducers should come before increasing the sampling rates of the same limited transducers (microphones and speakers) in my humble opinion. -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:35 PM To: tig Subject: Re: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== On Jan 10, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: >> Redbook vs. Hi-Rez >> peteraczel | 17 October, 2007 10:19 >> Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats >> Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original >> 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound >> quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies. > > The wording of the synopsis (and jumbling of SACD/DVD-A) immediately > makes the results of the study suspect. There are several flags that would give any researcher pause: the words "Proven," "incontrovertible," (see below); "exactly" and the "double-blind" argot. *incontrovertible: not able to be denied or disputed : incontrovertible proof.* Those are very strong words. it seems like someone is hammering a point. As Hamlet said, "Thou doth protest too much." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 10 23:31:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:31:50 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <1E1CF5B3-27F0-441D-92C2-B3A26E12F650@colorist.org> On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:57 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > But I do "personally" believe the AES study since it is consistent > with my > understanding and what I have always felt. many engineers will agree with you. many musicians will not. The best recording/mix/mastering engineers are artists, and many of them hear the difference. Here's a quote from the Brasilian guitarist/producer/arranger/composer Oscar Castro-Neves, when I asked him about this: "Rob - people that I trust for their ability to perceive quality of recording tell me that there is a difference - both in sonic quality and perceived "space" of dynamic range. Miles actually had a very interesting reaction to digital vs analog. Without knowing if the session was digital or analog - he would develop ear fatigue with digital and not to analog. Isn't that funny?" Oscar is definitely in the Formidable category. http://www.oscarcastroneves.com (i happen to host his site and have had the privilege of studying with him.) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Jan 11 00:21:27 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:21:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: > > If the Nyquist Theorem has been disproven any time in the last 40 years > (when I graduated in engineering), I missed it. What does the Nyquist Theorem say? According to the Nyquist sampling theorem, if you want to positively identify a 20 KHZ perfect sine wave, you must point sample with a frequency of at least 40 KHz. Visualize that in this case, the engineer takes his sine wave generator and adjusts it using a scope until the sampled points match up with the wave. If we double the frequency the same points can be (falsely) matched, but not if we halve the frequency. We have just demonstrated that Nyquist sampling works. There is a little problem with this as applied to music in that while a good human ear can hear a 20 KHZ perfect sine wave, music itself is not comprised of perfect sine waves and we are not using a sine wave frequency generator. Fourier analysis tells us that much higher frequencies of perfect sine waves are necessary in order to accurately represent the shape of the original audio signal. Without representing the original audio signal accurately enough, new waveforms, frequencies, and phase distortions are created which did not originally exist. Since the Nyquist Theorem is for sampling sine waves, the only way to accurately apply it to music is to pre-filter the incoming signal so that there is no frequency component higher than half the sampling frequency. It is very difficult (or impossible) to design the perfect filter so all filters introduce unwanted distortions to the signal prior to the sampling stage. The CD player (or D/A) needs to include its own filter which is carefully matched to the filter used when downsampling. This allows the analog waveform to more closely approximate the input waveform. Based on the above, it should be clear that sampling at a much higher rate requires a weaker filter, and therefore there is less risk of introducing harmonic distortion and phase shifts. With stereo or multi-channel audio systems, it is important to avoid phase shifts since they alter the perceived audio once it is added to the listening environment. This applies to D/A filters, and speaker crossover filters, and to the speakers themselves. In case this seems off-topic for the TIG, it is worth noting that all of this applies to sampled video as well. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Sun Jan 11 00:36:03 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:36:03 -0800 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029EFF78@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> I would suspect a double blind study with musicians and audiophiles would be different from one with a sampling of the general public. Years ago I worked for musical instrument mfg and we did double blind tests on tube vs. transistor gutair amps and had sampling of random people off the street vs. gutair players. The success rate of gutairists in hearing difference was better than 95%, but only 70% for general public. We used a great box for this called an ABX box that randomly selected amp "A", "B", or "X".. It would be interesting to see a similar test for comparison of different sample rates vs. Analog. Naturally, true 192 khz should be used instead of upsampled lower sample raten otherwise one would not be comparing "apples to apples". Some digital audio still sounds harsh on the high end to me I'm not suprised that some people might get headaches. Craig Nichols DFT ----- Original Message ----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org To: Nick Johnson Cc: 'tig' Sent: Sat Jan 10 15:31:50 2009 Subject: Re: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:57 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > But I do "personally" believe the AES study since it is consistent > with my > understanding and what I have always felt. many engineers will agree with you. many musicians will not. The best recording/mix/mastering engineers are artists, and many of them hear the difference. Here's a quote from the Brasilian guitarist/producer/arranger/composer Oscar Castro-Neves, when I asked him about this: "Rob - people that I trust for their ability to perceive quality of recording tell me that there is a difference - both in sonic quality and perceived "space" of dynamic range. Miles actually had a very interesting reaction to digital vs analog. Without knowing if the session was digital or analog - he would develop ear fatigue with digital and not to analog. Isn't that funny?" Oscar is definitely in the Formidable category. http://www.oscarcastroneves.com (i happen to host his site and have had the privilege of studying with him.) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From ted at tedlangdell.com Sun Jan 11 01:01:09 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:01:09 -0800 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > If microphones can't capture over 20 KHz and speakers can't recreate > sound > above 20 KHz then I see no point in sampling above 40 KHz whether we > are > capable of hearing "original sound" higher than that or not. On Jan 10, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Rob Lingelbach reposted a quote attributed to Brasilian guitarist/producer/arranger/composer Oscar Castro-Neves, when Rob asked him for comment: > "Rob - people that I trust for their ability to perceive quality of > recording tell me that there is a difference - both in sonic quality > and perceived "space" of dynamic range. Miles actually had a very > interesting reaction to digital vs analog. Without knowing if the > session was digital or analog - he would develop ear fatigue with > digital and not to analog. Isn't that funny?" The comments have me thinking about overtones (harmonics) which are generated by the fundamental frequencies involved in sound, interact with other tones and can extend above the limits of human hearing. Even-order and odd-order harmonics may be at play. The evens are "musical" and are perceived as pleasant, and the odd-order harmonics are not: http://www.owenscorning.com/around/sound/glossary.asp#s Odd-order harmonics, on the other hand third, fifth, seventh, and up- create a series of notes that are not related to any octave overtones and therefore may have an unpleasant sound. Audio systems that emphasize odd-order harmonics tend to have a harsh, hard quality. Perhaps there's some research available about what digitization, sample and bit rate have on harmonics. I can't help but thinking that the number of samples and bits—or lack thereof—is "visible" to the ear just as the differences more samples and bits makes when looking at a gradient in digital form. That sort of discussion's been round the bend here... recently in connection with the number of bits particular LCD monitor panels may natively be... and that factor's effect on what's seen... some of which is rather subtle. And ear fatigue isn't necessarily limited to digital. Radio programmers and engineers who desire to maintain longer Time Spent Listening (TLS in the radio biz) for their stations pay attention to the listenability of the sound since there is a phenomenon known as "Listener Fatigue" that results in tuneout and shorter TSL. Highly compressed stations may really have to pay attention to this problem. There are stations I don't care to listen to because of their "sound" particularly when the sibilants like cymbal hits and high frequency content sounds "smeared" or "splattered." Can't seem to find an online definition for either, although they're used to describe particular sound conditions. (Where's that copy of Howard Tremaine's "AudioCyclopedia" when I need it! :-\) Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From rob at colorist.org Sun Jan 11 01:29:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:29:02 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2009, at 11:01 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > The comments have me thinking about overtones (harmonics) which are > generated by the fundamental frequencies involved in sound, interact > with other tones and can extend above the limits of human hearing. definitely extend and extend.. our dogs know. most musicians become familiar with partials fairly quickly, as they're (not strictly :] ) fundamental. > Even-order and odd-order harmonics may be at play. The evens are > "musical" and are perceived as pleasant, and the odd-order harmonics > are not: > > http://www.owenscorning.com/around/sound/glossary.asp#s > Odd-order harmonics, on the other hand third, fifth, seventh, and up- > create a series of notes that are not related to any octave > overtones and therefore may have an unpleasant sound. Audio systems > that emphasize odd-order harmonics tend to have a harsh, hard quality. note that the definition says "may have an unpleasant sound." I think the late pianist Bill Evans made use of such partials in innovative ways, that certainly wasn't unpleasant. But a piano is not an audio system. > There are stations I don't care to listen to because of their > "sound" particularly when the sibilants like cymbal hits and high > frequency content sounds "smeared" or "splattered." yes, and watch out when they use the Aphex Aural Exciter! I had my own version of the Aural Exciter as a kid when I listened to the AM radio in my parent's car. The sound disappointed me, and I found that if I intentionally mistuned the station a few kHz off- frequency, and then engaged the muffling side of the TONE control, I got a satisfying high end from the AM box. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sun Jan 11 05:30:08 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:30:08 -0200 Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist Message-ID: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> I read the best material I could find on the Nyquist theorem and its practical application. Bob F. summarized this neatly. The practical considerations of the filtering needed for the signal being sampled not to exceed half the sampling frequency effectively throw a wrench into the works, and what is termed as interpolation error, and aliasing, are the undesired effects of the imperfect filters that bandwidth-limit the signal. So, theoretically, as Bob mentioned, a higher sampling rate will improve the situation regarding out-of-band excursions, that in turn cause artifacts (the brittle, harsh quality of CD quality audio) that I suspect are aliasing. I quote from the Wikipedia entry. ---- Practical considerations A few consequences can be drawn from the theorem: * If the highest frequency B in the original signal is known, the theorem gives the lower bound on the sampling frequency for which perfect reconstruction can be assured. This lower bound to the sampling frequency, 2B, is called the Nyquist rate. * If instead the sampling frequency is known, the theorem gives us an upper bound for frequency components, B References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <048501c973c0$d31518a0$793f49e0$@com> I guess my point is, if the microphones (the transducers) can't respond to changes above 20 KHz those harmonics in the original sound that you refer to won't be there to sample will they? If they aren't there to start with how does sampling at the higher frequencies necessary to capture them make any sense? The transducers (the microphones) are effectively a "filter" and since most are limited to 20 KHz or less any sample rate above 40 KHz seems wasted. Let's assume microphones could be developed with a frequency response of 40 KHz. If that happens only 80 KHz sampling would be needed but even then we are a LONG way from 192 KHz. I don't think the AES study or anything I have suggested implies Redbook audio is "as good as the original". I believe the Redbook developers' task was to create a digital format that was "as good as" any "analog recorded format" which is obviously also subject to the same "transducer transfer function" (or "filter") microphones impose. And then of course we do have to use another transducer to convert our electrical signals back into pressure waves in air - the speakers. Even if by some miracle we were to capture harmonics above 20 KHz with some newly invented microphone and sample at a rate to preserve them, our final output will be constrained to the frequency response of the speakers, right? If speakers have a 20 KHz frequency response they can't recreate Nth order harmonics of 20 KHz can they? From njohnson at sc.rr.com Sun Jan 11 08:09:43 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:09:43 -0500 Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist In-Reply-To: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> Rob, I suggest that the concern: The practical considerations of the filtering needed for the signal being sampled not to exceed half the sampling frequency effectively throw a wrench into the works, and what is termed as interpolation error, and aliasing, are the undesired effects of the imperfect filters that bandwidth-limit the signal. Is largely eliminated by the microphones themselves which generally have a 20 KHz or less frequency response for which 40 KHz sampling would be sufficient. I'm not suggesting harmonics above 20 KHz are not present in the original sound but simply that they cannot make it through a microphone with a 20 KHz frequency response. Surely everyone must acknowledge "if it can't make it through the microphone to be recorded" it doesn't matter whether the recording is analog, digital, or what sample rate is used to capture it. It's simply "not there". From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Jan 11 16:37:40 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:37:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <048501c973c0$d31518a0$793f49e0$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <3853798A-7019-4D5F-9C52-B47B2AEDA785@colorist.org> <047501c97376$d9c632f0$8d5298d0$@rr.com> <048501c973c0$d31518a0$793f49e0$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: > I guess my point is, if the microphones (the transducers) can't respond to > changes above 20 KHz those harmonics in the original sound that you refer to > won't be there to sample will they? If they aren't there to start with how Why do you believe that microphones cut off at 20 KHz? > And then of course we do have to use another transducer to convert our > electrical signals back into pressure waves in air - the speakers. Even if > by some miracle we were to capture harmonics above 20 KHz with some newly > invented microphone and sample at a rate to preserve them, our final output > will be constrained to the frequency response of the speakers, right? Yes, but why would you assume that the speakers are not capable of outputting some higher frequencies? The specifications for microphones and speakers are based on total harmonic distortion at the rated frequency. They are not an indication of a hard limit. Higher frequencies could be captured or created, but are perhaps distorted. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From cfharr at erols.com Sun Jan 11 22:54:57 2009 From: cfharr at erols.com (Chuck Harrison) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:54:57 -0800 Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> Message-ID: <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> Foks, I find it useful to consider that certainty is the realm of mathematical theorems. Theorems (like Nyquist's) are about mathematical abstractions, which we use as models of the world. A mathematically bandlimited function has many characteristics which remind us that it is not a perfect model. For example, if you know the entire past history of a bandlimited signal, you can compute the future signal values for all time. Also, as quoted elsewhere, a bandlimited signal cannot be of finite duration: it *must* have nonzero values extending infinitely far into the past and future. It is also really easy to forget that the whole body of frequency analysis (Fourier analysis) is applicable to linear systems. Only in linear systems can you assume that a 1kHz tone in produces a 1 kHz tone out. (Sinusoids are eigenfunctions of linear systems.) As an electrical engineer, I am familiar with components like resistors that have been engineered to be linear over 8 orders of magnitude. In the mechanical world of microphones I guess (despite decades of refinement) we're seeing 4 or 5 orders of magnitude, and in flesh and blood you're probably lucky to see 2 orders of magnitude. Even air is nonlinear, as the Holosonics type of product demonstrates. Linear systems analysis, including tools such as Nyquist's theorem, is a powerful method that I use constantly. But mathematical reasoning does not definitively prove anything about what people can and cannot hear or see, because the underlying models are well known to be approximations only. Thus the important role of psychophysical experiments. A difficult factor in designing psychophysical experiments is that the field of possible signals is so vast -- and without simplifying assumptions about what signals are "representative" a comprehensive test is hopeless. That's why it's important to follow up on apparent anomalies. Here's an example from vision. It is well known that the human visual acuity resolves something in the neighborhood of one minute of arc. However for specific tasks (e.g. sensing the alignment of two lines) the task accuracy is almost ten times as good. This is why the naked eye can routinely read a set of vernier calipers to 0.001 inch resolution. I also recently learned that the human eye has a remarkably ability to distinguish small changes in the amount of defocus or softness in an image, well beyond what one would naively predict from the one-minute-of-arc rule of thumb. How does a researcher know that these particular tasks are ones that will reveal special "resolution" capabilities? What other types of visual patterns might reveal other surprises? And what are the analogous "test patterns" in the audio world? I say it is not wise to get too huffy about what has been definitively proven in these areas. Regards, Chuck Not affiliated with any sensory organs but my own. From rob at colorist.org Sun Jan 11 23:49:05 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:49:05 -0200 Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist In-Reply-To: <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> Message-ID: <9A9F49E0-9D00-49E4-81D0-18641EEAD8AB@colorist.org> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Chuck Harrison wrote: > How does > a researcher know that these particular tasks are ones that > will reveal special "resolution" capabilities? What other > types of visual patterns might reveal other surprises? And > what are the analogous "test patterns" in the audio world? In one of Richard Feynman's collections of essays, is an early experience he had tinkering with radios that had been left out for the garbage man in the town where he lived. One particular problem was not immediately evident based on his experience and aptitude, and he started pacing the room, thinking about the problem and approaching it in different ways, mentally. He was perhaps 12 at the time. A neighbor saw him, asked what the heck he was doing, and broke into guffaws when Richard told him he was fixing a radio and thinking of the solution. The neighbor had no idea that much of the processing in the brain needs time to engage, and that theories are subject to change. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Jan 12 00:48:08 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:48:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist In-Reply-To: <9A9F49E0-9D00-49E4-81D0-18641EEAD8AB@colorist.org> References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> <9A9F49E0-9D00-49E4-81D0-18641EEAD8AB@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > He was perhaps 12 at the time. A neighbor saw him, asked what the heck he > was doing, and broke into guffaws when Richard told him he was fixing a radio > and thinking of the solution. The neighbor had no idea that much of the > processing in the brain needs time to engage, and that theories are subject > to change. I definitely recommend that folks read the classic book "The Soul of a New Machine" by Tracy Kidder. While on the face of it this is a book about the development of a new computer model (by a now long defunct company), it is really a story about the strange ways that people get things done and how they interact. I imagine that there are places in the film industry which behave similar to the people described. A key part of the design of the new computer was the "microcode" to make the new CPU work. Developing this microcode is a very challenging task. The fellow who was supposed to be doing this critical work spent many months lounging around and not apparently doing anything useful at all. People in charge started to get worried that perhaps the work would never get done and they were not sure what to do since this fellow was the only person available who knew how to do the work. One day the fellow sits down and starts typing rapidly. Several days later all of the microcode has been entered, and it works. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jdhouston at earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 02:28:43 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:28:43 -0800 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> There are really two separate issues with audio sampling. One is the processing path used and it's accuracy, the other is the original capture of the original sound impulses. With current microphone technology, there is no reason to think that engineers are capturing phase-accurate 192kHz sounds. To go back into the realm of theory again, the Nyquist phrase, "at least twice the sampling frequency" refers to phase invariant cycles. It was well known that to capture sound impulses (sharp edge transients), you need very fine resolution to accurately capture the impulse. For this situation, it is more likely that you need a sampling frequency of at least 5X in order to get a better rendition of the phase of the frequency and thus to improve the processing of impulse changes. improving the processing path thus achieves increased audio accuracy for all audible sounds as part of an electronic filter design. Since there is little test material that actually stresses the higher sampling rates, it isn't likely that a subjective test really "proves" anything. The best test material would be artificially generated, but still contain musical timbres that allow subjective judgement on the quality of the output sounds from speakers (that are themselves also limited in their reproduction capabilities). The paper doesn't really prove anything at all because they pass everything through a "16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A" that just shows that if you know exactly what you want to prove, you can setup a test to prove exactly that. Jim jdhouston at earthlink.net On Jan 9, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Nick Johnson wrote: > Proven: Good Old Redbook CD Sounds the Same as the Hi-Rez Formats > Incontrovertible double-blind listening tests prove that the original > 16-bit/44.1-kHz CD standard yields exactly the same two-channel sound > quality as the SACD and DVD-A technologies. > From jdhouston at earthlink.net Mon Jan 12 02:46:44 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:46:44 -0800 Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist In-Reply-To: References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> <9A9F49E0-9D00-49E4-81D0-18641EEAD8AB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <64C9FB8B-2245-4A4D-A97C-FFC57171709C@earthlink.net> On Jan 11, 2009, at 4:48 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > . The fellow who was supposed to be doing this critical work spent > many months lounging around and not apparently doing anything > useful at all. People in charge started to get worried that > perhaps the work would never get done and they were not sure what > to do since this fellow was the only person available who knew how > to do the work. One day the fellow sits down and starts typing > rapidly. Several days later all of the microcode has been entered, > and it works. There are a couple of practical ways to look at this kind of 'work myth': 1) the problem to be solved, although apparently difficult to non- experts, was not of sufficient complexity that a true domain expert would take very long to solve it. Thus knowing the amount of time available versus the likely needed time, an expert could lounge around for some time. 2) the problem to be solved required new creative thinking and building an internal thought model of how to solve the problem before any actual work could begin. 3) the problem has been solved before and just needs some customization for the particulars of a new product. Micro-coding of a new CPU is unlikely to be something that can be done completely in the head and then memorized (implied by the story) so that it can just be typed out. Instead, either 1) or 3) are more likely explanations. If you have done several generations of microcode, re-using the things that you already have proved work is the most likely story behind the story. The only part that I'm sure was a fable is: "all of the microcode has been entered, and it works" :-) Jim From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Jan 12 04:06:02 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:06:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist In-Reply-To: <64C9FB8B-2245-4A4D-A97C-FFC57171709C@earthlink.net> References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> <9A9F49E0-9D00-49E4-81D0-18641EEAD8AB@colorist.org> <64C9FB8B-2245-4A4D-A97C-FFC57171709C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Jim Houston wrote: > Micro-coding of a new CPU is unlikely to be something that can be > done completely in the head and then memorized (implied by the > story) so that it can just be typed out. Instead, either 1) or 3) > are more likely explanations. If you have done several generations > of microcode, re-using the things that you already have proved work > is the most likely story behind the story. I tend to believe #2. Creative activities often require considerable thought before anything can be done, and then the solution just seems to pour out. This is entirely contrary to "management" who typically assume that the same amount of work should get done every hour of the day. This not to say that ideas could not be derived from prior work. > The only part that I'm sure was a fable is: "all of the microcode has been > entered, and it works" Right. In fact, a description on the WikiPedia page describes how another person became totally burned out trying to resolve timing bugs in the design and decided to never work with computers again. Later he apparently changed that decision. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 12 04:05:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:05:02 -0200 Subject: [Tig] practical considerations on Nyquist In-Reply-To: <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> Message-ID: On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Chuck Harrison wrote: > I find it useful to consider that certainty is the realm of > mathematical > theorems. Theorems (like Nyquist's) are about mathematical > abstractions, > which we use as models of the world. Plato covered this pretty well a while back. Mathematicians who also have a sense of humor and social skills are not so easily found, because certainty, or pedantry, gets you into trouble quickly. The exceptions though are exceptional. *as a child, I thought Playdough was my entry into Greek philosophy, and that I'd better not go near the sewers at the curbsides, because people died committing sewercide after trying to understand ancient Greek philosophy. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 12 04:20:31 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:20:31 -0200 Subject: [Tig] the creative process (was: Re: practical ) In-Reply-To: References: <4F35E422-2A1A-4590-AE7E-BC29C2C61A9A@colorist.org> <048601c973c3$f5b979c0$e12c6d40$@rr.com> <496A78C1.6B6B6A30@erols.com> <9A9F49E0-9D00-49E4-81D0-18641EEAD8AB@colorist.org> <64C9FB8B-2245-4A4D-A97C-FFC57171709C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <24261F47-2476-4CCE-B9C4-B4F1C238B786@colorist.org> On Jan 12, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > I tend to believe #2. Creative activities often require > considerable thought before anything can be done, and then the > solution just seems to pour out. This is quite true, and the world of professional color correction or grading doesn't allow for much thought-time, though we condition ourselves, hopefully, to try to grasp a vision or idea and deliver it or variants of it as quickly as possible. I remember when once a Director was telling me what he wanted, and I really had to think it through a little, and when I didn't react right away with saccharine assertations he thought I wasn't paying attention and got mad. Some of the more intriguing problems, involving systems analysis or modular design, have to be shunted back or niced down so the brain can work on them during less stressful moments, like during sleep, or, if I want to solve a problem a hot shower often works. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From Nick at LipFix.com Mon Jan 12 06:50:20 2009 From: Nick at LipFix.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 01:50:20 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> Jim, I must comment on an object to your statement: "The paper doesn't really prove anything at all because they pass everything through a "16-bit/44.1-kHz A/D/A" that just shows that if you know exactly what you want to prove, you can setup a test to prove exactly that." My reading of what the Audio Engineering Society study did was to take SACD and DVD-A audio (which has been shown to be produced to the highest quality standards and generally above normal CD Audio) and pass that audio NOT "everything" through the 16 bit/ 44.1 KHz A/D/A. The double blind comparison was between that "supposedly" degraded audio (it WOULD have been degraded if the 16 bit 44.1 KHz format wasn't able to pass everything that could be heard in the supposedly superior SACD and DVD-A audio) and the "original" untouched SACD and DVD-A recordings which WERE NOT passed through the 16 bit/44.1 KHz A/D/A. If the format matters that "methodology" should definitely expose the difference if the listening tests are conducted properly. I don't think the "methodology" can be challenged. It is technically sound. What can be challenged in ANY study is how it is conducted so their choice of test subjects (listeners), amplifiers, speakers, listening room, etc. can be the subject of valid debate but don't malign a study the Audio Engineering Society felt sufficiently credible to publish with a statement that implies "everything" was passed through the same 16 bit 44.1 KHz A/D/A guaranteeing the same result. That is NOT what it says! What it says is the "untouched" SACD and DVD-A audio was compared to that same audio that had passed through the 16 bit 44.1 KHz A/D/A. I have no knowledge of that study other than what I have read and my reading and understanding of how they conducted it contradicts your statement so if you have some other source of information about that study which indicates the authors failed to do what they report, please enlighten me and the rest of the TIG readers who may otherwise be misled. And I feel sure the AES would also be very interested in any new information you provide invalidating their published report. Nick From steve.simon at snellwilcox.com Mon Jan 12 09:52:15 2009 From: steve.simon at snellwilcox.com (Steve Simon) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:52:15 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio Message-ID: <5488c9f30c2006cc6567da2175d849df@snellwilcox.com> > The transducers (the microphones) are effectively a "filter" and since most > are limited to 20 KHz or less any sample rate above 40 KHz seems wasted. I would doubt that the transducer will be limited, however every amplifier the signal passes through will have a filter (dominant pole compensation), and lets not forget every condencer microphone (electret or phantom powered) has a head end amplifier. Dynamic mikes have no amplifier, but then they always (in pro audio) to drive low impeedence cables which needs a matching transformer, which I very much doubt is flat to 96Khz. HF hearing rolls off with age, its a fact. I very much doubt that anyone here can hear 20khz, let alone 96khz. Personally, rattling CRT line transformers (15.625 Khz in the UK) is nothing like as anoying to me as it used to be (I am 43), and no, LCDs have not taken over yet here :-) -Steve This email and any attachments is confidential, may be legally privileged and is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any use, disclosure, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If received in error, please delete this email and any attachments and confirm this to the sender. From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 12 13:20:28 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:20:28 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> Message-ID: <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:50 AM, Nick Johnson wrote: > > be the subject of valid debate but don't malign a study the Audio > Engineering Society felt sufficiently credible to publish Hi Nick, my personal opinion previously stated is that there are serious problems with what we have read of this study, in that it seems to have been done to prove a point with marketing considerations (the language used in the extract is sufficiently strident and opinionated, indeed fairly unbelievable), and its conclusions are refuted by careful reading of the Nyquist theorem's practical considerations. I'm quite surprised that an organization putatively involved with engineering standards would endorse such a study, and this calls into question the function of the AES. cheers. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Jan 12 16:52:17 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:52:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Nick Johnson wrote: > > I don't think the "methodology" can be challenged. It is technically sound. > > What can be challenged in ANY study is how it is conducted so their choice > of test subjects (listeners), amplifiers, speakers, listening room, etc. can > be the subject of valid debate but don't malign a study the Audio > Engineering Society felt sufficiently credible to publish with a statement > that implies "everything" was passed through the same 16 bit 44.1 KHz A/D/A > guaranteeing the same result. That is NOT what it says! The study is clearly not "beyond reproach" because essentially no technical details have been provided at all which allow someone to understand what was done, or reproduce the experiment. Without the details which allow someone to technically evaluate what was done, and independently reproduce the study, this report is no better than a report in the Weekly World News that someone has achieved "cold fusion" in their basement. The first thing I saw which is suspect is the continued lumping together of "SACD and DVD-A" which are totally different technologies. In fact, you can not properly record or mix SACD using normal professional recording gear. Only a limited number of sites in the world are prepared to do it. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Mon Jan 12 17:40:18 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:40:18 -0700 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> Message-ID: > > The first thing I saw which is suspect is the continued lumping > together of "SACD and DVD-A" which are totally different > technologies. In fact, you can not properly record or mix SACD > using normal professional recording gear. Only a limited number of > sites in the world are prepared to do it. > > The whole thing has the feel of "1920x1080HD" is clearly not superior to "720x480 DV cam" (when composite dubbed to VHS). Might actually be true, especially if very small point fonts are used in HD graphics that alias like mad when combed and colour-undered to YC629. So it serves the adage that "figures don't lie, but liars sure can figure". Poor old Nyquist. If only life were totally mathematical. Like the farmer that needed to solve some problem out in the chicken coop who called in a physicist to come up with a solution (probably not Feynman) and the first thing the academic does is.... "Well, let's assume a spherical chicken...." Screw the real world, assume Steady-State/Steady-Flow so the rest of the differentials collapse to zero and you've got an answer... Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From mlbnyc at verizon.net Mon Jan 12 17:25:56 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:25:56 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Audio Guy Chimes In Re: tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> Message-ID: As a "audio guy", the thread on hi res audio kicked off by Nick's reference to an intriguing AES paper on the topic certainly hit a number of my hot buttons. After all, I'm "sure" I've been able tell the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit at 44.1K never mind upping the sampling frequency. Am I nuts? Am I a delusional audiophile instead of a "real engineer"? So I read the paper. Aside to those who call this a AES study; it is not. It is an independent paper submitted for publication. Since the document references three revisions prior to publication, I'll assume the review process worked. Professional journals are not limited to "the right way" when accepting papers for publication. What they are intended to do is stimulate thought and discussion on a topic... unless a paper is fundamentally flawed, which after reading, I don't believe is the case here. Anyway, as I read the thread I found my self looking for ways to discredit the story... oh they didn't use professional listeners, or musicians, the play back systems or environments prevented discrimination between sources.... etc. But reading the abstract gave me pause... hmm, professional listeners were used, professional and audiophile systems were used.... what's up with that? Another aside, this paper only addressed the final stage of playback. There are sound mathematical reasons for high bit rate recording and processing and those carry through to the final delivery medium in cases where additional processing (room eq, reverb, compression) are to be applied in the consumer device (e.g. home theater processor). This has to do with the precision of calculations which can be audible through enough generations of coding. In fact this is noted in the paper: "The usefulness of the increased dynamic range afforded by longer word lengths for mixdown has never been in question." So, here's my take. While the conclusions and notes on hi-resolution recordings read more like trade journals and consumer oriented magazines (not surprising given the author's bio's), I find they make a credible point, backed up by defensible methodology that has seen time-honored use in audio quality evaluations. And it definitely flies in the face of my perceptions from years of working with digital audio, many more years as a musician and half a century as one who really enjoys listening to music. I can't find any basis to reject it out of hand. So this article, it's authors (and the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society) have performed a useful service in forcing me to reexamine my biases and better understand the factors affecting what I am experiencing vis high bit rate audio, remembering that the only area in question here is final playback. FWIW, Mike Bittle NARAS, AES, IEEE, SMPTE From cfharr at erols.com Mon Jan 12 18:00:10 2009 From: cfharr at erols.com (Chuck Harrison) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:00:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio Message-ID: <20090112130010.BWS26736@ms17.lnh.mail.rcn.net> I suggest we stop discussing the merits of this paper until somebody manifests the energy to get it from their nearest university library or the $20 to download it from AES http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195 Griping about the "hype" language in a third-party review at audiocritic.com does not contribute to evaluating the technical merit of the work. Griping that it is copyrighted work and can't be downloaded for free won't move our understanding forward either :-) Cheers, Chuck From owen at ywwg.com Mon Jan 12 22:54:49 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:54:49 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> Message-ID: <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> > The whole thing has the feel of "1920x1080HD" is clearly not superior > to "720x480 DV cam" (when composite dubbed to VHS). I think the methodology is closer to "4K displayed natively" vs "4K downsampled to HD." I think that's valid -- if your eyes can't resolve the extra detail, the extra detail is worthless except in the production pipeline. However, it might be that the recording gear was the audio equivalent of a "2 megapixel cameraphone," ie it records at a high data rate but can't actually resolve that rate. My "2MP" cameraphone looks like shit, but the 1 megapixel images that came from the Mars rovers are stunning because the optics are perfect. Owen From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 12 23:13:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:13:25 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2009, at 8:54 PM, Owen Williams wrote: > the 1 megapixel images that came from the Mars rovers are stunning > because the optics are perfect. and maybe a different atmospheric quality? we once talked about how the images of the rovers were graded, whether they represented what we'd see with our eyes. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Jan 12 23:16:45 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:16:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Owen Williams wrote: > I think the methodology is closer to "4K displayed natively" vs "4K > downsampled to HD." I think that's valid -- if your eyes can't resolve > the extra detail, the extra detail is worthless except in the production > pipeline. Perhaps not a perfect analogy. 4K is still useful because the viewer always has the option to sit closer, look at a smaller area at a time, or buy a larger display. With audio there are no such options. The human ear is not capable of discerning a difference past a certain point. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 12 23:34:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:34:35 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Audio Guy Chimes In Re: tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Michael Bittle wrote: > Aside to those who call this a AES study; it is not. It is an > independent paper submitted for publication. do those who reference the paper understand that they are not invoking any kind of imprimatur from AES? I think not, and that's what confuses the issue. > But reading the abstract gave me pause... hmm, professional > listeners were used, professional and audiophile systems were > used.... what's up with that? was there more detail on this in the paper itself? in order to be taken seriously, they should present the qualifications or lack of same in their subjects, and the specifications of every element in the systems used for analysis. > Another aside, this paper only addressed the final stage of playback. but the abstract, or the 3rd-party review (it gets confusing) states firmly that "There is no difference...[between Red Book CD audio and 24-bit/192 kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD." that's the quote from Nick's first posting that got us scratching our heads. > So, here's my take. While the conclusions and notes on hi- > resolution recordings read more like trade journals and consumer > oriented magazines (not surprising given the author's bio's), I find > they make a credible point, backed up by defensible methodology that > has seen time-honored use in audio quality evaluations. can you tell us what methodology, precisely was used, without running afoul of copyright? as I read it, there was so much marketing going on in the quoting (but I'm not sure where the statements were coming from, it's not clear) that I wouldn't believe that the study wasn't skewed for commercial reasons. > I can't find any basis to reject it out of hand. So this article, > it's authors (and the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society) have > performed a useful service in forcing me to reexamine my biases and > better understand the factors affecting what I am experiencing vis > high bit rate audio, remembering that the only area in question here > is final playback. Guess I'll have to try to get a copy of the report, and read it objectively. Yet you can't tell me that the people whom I respect in music performance, recording, mixing, mastering, and production, are all wrong when they say CD-quality consumer discs are inferior to those produced at higher resolution, and that there's a (for lack of better words) headache-inducing lack of sonic quality (what I call personally, 'harsh' or 'brittle') to the Red Book CD standard. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 13 00:13:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:13:33 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Perhaps not a perfect analogy. 4K is still useful because the > viewer always has the option to sit closer, look at a smaller area > at a time, or buy a larger display. With audio there are no such > options. The human ear is not capable of discerning a difference > past a certain point. the subject of transient resolution, or temporal resolution, is fascinating and has been covered extsensively in the TIG over the 17 years. How concisely can you time-slice in theory, and then, in a practical sense with the human eye? The last I heard was that things were getting really interesting in capturing events down to the infinitesimally tiny level, which has implications for physics. When my eyes are well-rested, I can easily see a field of video (1/60 sec) on a bad cut*, and believe that after this vacation in Brasil, I could hit smaller fractions. It's also good to test your audio-video sync judgement if you've worked as an editor, and work with your guesses of direction and number of frames, in order to keep fresh. (* useful when utilizing a scene detector and trusting it too much, when perhaps it falses pre- or post-cut) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From owen at ywwg.com Tue Jan 13 00:54:18 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:54:18 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 22:13 -0200, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > When my eyes are well-rested, I can easily see a field of video (1/60 > sec) on a bad cut*, and believe that after this vacation in Brasil, I > could hit smaller fractions. After I get out of a movie theater it takes me a moment to adjust to how smooth motion in real life is :). I used to play a lot of Quake 2 / Quake 3 and my target fps was always 75 or 80. Above that and I couldn't tell the difference. Although, it occurs to me now that I was probably hitting up against refresh rate and phosphor decay time at that point. Still, I think professional gamers would be a good group to study for this research, since they are very sensitive to changes in frame-rate (if posts online are any indication). Them, fighter pilots, and race-car drivers. > sync judgement if you've worked as an editor, and work with your > guesses of direction and number of frames, in order to keep fresh. In my work I do a lot of audio sync correction, and I know I can easily see when video is out of sync by two frames (on NTSC video). One frame is tougher. Now I can't stand when audio is out of sync, which it often is on DVD and TV thanks to various image processors in the pipeline. I had to get a delay device to bring the sound back in line with the picture. It's like when you first learn about macro blocks, mosquito noise, or DLP rainbows -- once you see them you can't go back. Owen From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 13 01:11:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:11:03 -0200 Subject: [Tig] temporal resolution and audio sync In-Reply-To: <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2009, at 10:54 PM, Owen Williams wrote: > In my work I do a lot of audio sync correction, and I know I can > easily > see when video is out of sync by two frames (on NTSC video). One > frame > is tougher. it's tougher but with practice, it can be done, though depends on your own cerebral processing speed, and experience (practice). Also as you must know, audio 1 frame late is more pleasing than audio 1 frame early, and has to do with what we expect from real-world (non-video) conditions, where the sound will be late by a fraction of a second due to physics. > Now I can't stand when audio is out of sync, which it often > is on DVD and TV thanks to various image processors in the > pipeline. I > had to get a delay device to bring the sound back in line with the > picture. it's really annoying. As a colorist, what's just as annoying is seeing frame-or-field early or late grading cuts. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 13 01:19:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:19:03 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: <2659258D-091D-452D-8753-307A91E40C25@colorist.org> On Jan 12, 2009, at 10:54 PM, Owen Williams wrote: > After I get out of a movie theater it takes me a moment to adjust to > how > smooth motion in real life is :). nothing like real life. as a child going to the cinema with my mom who dragged me to see Peter Sellers films (thanks mom) the most jarring thing I remember was how tiny seemed the human heads walking up the aisle to get more popcorn, and then afterwards, it took some adjustment to resize reality. Does the same thing happen with audio, where the bass of real life takes an adjustment after the 10Hz or whatever rumbles of excellent theatre systems? There used to be and probably still is an organ in Atlantic City that had a pipe at CCCCC, 64'9" long, ..what is it, about 6 Hz? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jdhouston at earthlink.net Tue Jan 13 01:53:14 2009 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:53:14 -0800 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: > I don't think the "methodology" can be challenged It is true that I have not read the paper (as it is not readily accessible to me). There has already been substantive questions raised by audio engineers about the methodology of the study. I relied on this in the synopsis: > the two-channel analog output of a high-end SACD/DVD-A player > undergoes no audible change when passed through a 16-bit/44.1-kHz A/ > D/A > processor. > > The use of a standard 16-bit/44.1-kHz processor > as a "bottleneck" in the Meyer-Moran tests eliminated this concern. and this description, http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm and this note from the president of the Boston Audio Society. "In Brad Meyer's notes he says they used a custom 1.5 to 1 dBX compressor built by Rene Jaeger since they were concerned their 14 bit system was not sufficient (allowing for headroom and uncertainty of level setting), and indeed they were correct. " and this: "The test results show that the CD-quality A/D/A loop was undetectable at normal-to-loud listening levels, by any of the subjects, on any of the playback systems. The noise of the CD-quality loop was audible only at very elevated levels." They were performing subjective testing of analog masters reproduced through a digital chain using standard high-end audio equipment. The level-of-proof from this scenario is less than most engineers would expect. It does provide some interesting information about perception of audio signals with current generation masters and equipment, but doesn't put to rest the controversy at all. (and like all good science experiments, we will have to wait a while to see if anyone else can duplicate the result -- the authoritativeness level of the experimenter is not needed) The point of my post was that to really test the formats, you would need the proper test material to stress both of them to their limits and then see how well they hold up. The test they did was not that (doesn't starting with analog masters already presume some limit to the available signals, and that the processing from the original to the output is compared with multiple engineering tests -- not just a reference pink noise as they say they did in their study). So the reviews suggest that the study doesn't "prove" much, but provides yet another example of a perceptual study comparing A/D/A chains. Jim From adrian at autotv.co.uk Tue Jan 13 13:13:20 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:13:20 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: <121AE8FF-057D-4ED0-B813-FC3AC941C812@autotv.co.uk> I think the key fact that being overlooked here is that Blu-Ray audio options allow for UNCOMPRESSED surround mixes, and that's quite an advance over what we've had with DVD-Video. Certainly all of the BDs I've made have had PCM audio 48Khz 16bit or better - we could rarely use PCM with DVD-Video as bandwidth was so scarce. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From mlbnyc at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 05:22:04 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:22:04 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Audio Guy Chimes In Re: tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Jan 12, 2009, at 6:34 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > > On Jan 12, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Michael Bittle wrote: > >> Aside to those who call this a AES study; it is not. It is an >> independent paper submitted for publication. > > do those who reference the paper understand that they are not > invoking any kind of imprimatur from AES? I think not, and that's > what confuses the issue. Probably not, but it's no different than any other professional society, if you want blessing it's called a Standard, otherwise is just professional opinion. > > >> But reading the abstract gave me pause... hmm, professional >> listeners were used, professional and audiophile systems were >> used.... what's up with that? > > was there more detail on this in the paper itself? in order to be > taken seriously, they should present the qualifications or lack of > same in their subjects, and the specifications of every element in > the systems used for analysis. Enough detail for me, there's a schematic of the test setup and pictures that give me a hint of what I had thought would be the weak link... and wasn't (the a/d/a converter). Subjects qualifications may not mean much to most but from the narrative and my personal acquaintance with the audio community in Boston I'm confident this was not a "mall survey". see Jim Houston's post which provides links to the Boston Audio Society page showing configs an source material. > > >> Another aside, this paper only addressed the final stage of playback. > > but the abstract, or the 3rd-party review (it gets confusing) states > firmly that "There is no difference...[between Red Book CD audio and > 24-bit/192 kHz PCM or 1-bit/2.8442-MHz DSD." that's the quote from > Nick's first posting that got us scratching our heads. The game "Telephone" comes to mind. The paper acknowledges that higher bit rates are of value in the recording and processing, as I mentioned. They also acknowledge that most CD's do sound worse than most DVD-A or SACD. Their point is that actual perception as presented through the narrow prism of final output does not require the higher bit rate. And in that context "there is not difference....." > > >> So, here's my take. While the conclusions and notes on hi- >> resolution recordings read more like trade journals and consumer >> oriented magazines (not surprising given the author's bio's), I >> find they make a credible point, backed up by defensible >> methodology that has seen time-honored use in audio quality >> evaluations. > > can you tell us what methodology, precisely was used, without > running afoul of copyright? as I read it, there was so much > marketing going on in the quoting (but I'm not sure where the > statements were coming from, it's not clear) that I wouldn't believe > that the study wasn't skewed for commercial reasons. The methodology is the standard ABX double blind testing that is the long established standard of perceptual audio evaluation. > > >> I can't find any basis to reject it out of hand. So this article, >> it's authors (and the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society) >> have performed a useful service in forcing me to reexamine my >> biases and better understand the factors affecting what I am >> experiencing vis high bit rate audio, remembering that the only >> area in question here is final playback. > > Guess I'll have to try to get a copy of the report, and read it > objectively. > > Yet you can't tell me that the people whom I respect in music > performance, recording, mixing, mastering, and production, are all > wrong when they say CD-quality consumer discs are inferior to those > produced at higher resolution, and that there's a (for lack of > better words) headache-inducing lack of sonic quality (what I call > personally, 'harsh' or 'brittle') to the Red Book CD standard. > I think the point of the study is not to counter that claim, but to focus the investigation in other areas. As I've said (and they acknowledge) recording, mixing, mastering and production all involve DSP calculations and the more resolution you have in the source and through the pipe, the more accurate the outcome will be. There is no disagreement here. In fact they use the output of DVD-A and SACD devices to ensure high quality source material. What they suggest, however, is that the final distribution media need not be of that same resolution. By comparing that high quality output with that same output reprocessed at 16 bits 44.1K, a wide range of serious and professional listeners with pretty damn good setups could not do better than 50:50 at picking which was which across a diverse cross section of recorded material. The key element to my mind is that they used the high res output to do the D/A conversion prior to the 16/44.1 reprocessing. It would be interesting, for example, to have used multiple down-sampling and dithering algorithms and perform the same comparisons. (this is where the headaches come from and are not part of the Red Book to the best of my recollection). I'm just guessing here but I bet the picture is not so rosy in this scenario. Which would leave the whole study as an academic exercise by virtue of the conundrum that the only way to achieve this stellar performance of 16/44.1 is to go through a high bit rate D/A process, then a tightly coupled a/d/a reprocessing at the lower bit rate. So what's the point? It was mentioned that bandwidth and processing of multi-track audio exceeded video, but if there is any digital audio processing to be performed in the users home theater receiver (isn't that what the meta data is for?) then you need to maintain the high bit rate all the way to that device to prevent "rounding" losses. So, again, what's the point? My own personal test, which I probably won't get to for a while, will be to track a high bit rate recording of acoustic guitar in ambient space, listen to the playback in it's original form, then routed through a low bitrate re-processor, then create a down-sampled version and compare. Not at all scientific, not even close to the rigor employed in the subject paper, but an interesting intellectual exercise for me personally. But, by all means, read the paper and draw your own conclusions. If enough folks on the list are interested, I'll ask AES if they'll let me distribute a copy. Cheers, Mike From Nick at LipFix.com Tue Jan 13 07:50:24 2009 From: Nick at LipFix.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:50:24 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> Message-ID: <002601c97553$99855fc0$cc901f40$@com> Somehow I find Jim's interpretation incredible. His words: "So the reviews suggest that the study doesn't "prove" much, but provides yet another example of a perceptual study comparing A/D/A chains." I'm not suggesting you should take my personal opinions of the research with any merit but did you read Michael Bittle's post? He "IS" an audio engineer and even though this study contradicted his prior impression he finds it has merit (and he READ it!). And what "audio engineer" do you know who has objected to the study's methodology? I can't imagine any engineer finding fault with the "methodology" - that is, taking the high res audio and comparing it with a "degraded" version of that SAME high res audio. I can understand attacking other elements of the study (listening, etc.) but see no possible fault in that "methodology". From njohnson at sc.rr.com Tue Jan 13 07:21:44 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 02:21:44 -0500 Subject: [Tig] temporal resolution and audio sync In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: <002501c9754f$969f7ab0$c3de7010$@rr.com> Owen Williams wrote: > In my work I do a lot of audio sync correction, and I know I can > easily > see when video is out of sync by two frames (on NTSC video). One > frame > is tougher. Owen, my company produces a remote controlled audio delay for lip-sync correction in home theaters and we had customers of our first two generation products which adjusted in one millisecond increments ask for "finer" granularity. They couldn't achieve perfect sync with one millisecond adjustment! Consequently our newest model, the DD740, adjusts in 1/3 ms increments which few customers will ever need. In contrast, you are talking about 33 ms frames being "tough" and we've got customers complaining that one ms resolution isn't enough. Isn't it amazing what our senses acclimate to and can then resolve when we have the ability to resolve it at the touch of a button. Nick From njohnson at sc.rr.com Tue Jan 13 08:02:33 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:02:33 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> Message-ID: <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> This post never appeared so I may have inadvertently used the wrong email address. Sorry, Nick. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Johnson [mailto:Nick at LipFix.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 4:49 PM To: 'tig tig' Subject: RE: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio Rob, I think almost all research is designed "to prove a point" isn't it? An assumption (a postulate) is made and tests are designed to eliminate as many things as possible while isolating and proving or disproving the assumption. The validity of any research will therefore depend upon how well the tests accomplish that and not upon whether the researchers were correct in their unproven assumption (which I believe is more often the case than not). Guarding against the expected outcome's potential to cloud the investigation is perhaps the most important responsibility of any researcher. In that regard you stated: " ... my personal opinion previously stated is that there are serious problems with what we have read of this study, in that it seems to have been done to prove a point with marketing considerations ..." I have to ask what "marketing considerations" you feel the authors could have possibly had? What is anyone going to sell "more of" if consumers acknowledge their findings that the "formats" aren't the difference in CD versus DVD-A and SACD quality? Is it going to increase the sales of ordinary CD's versus DVD-A and SACD recordings? Even if it did, how would they personally benefit? But I doubt it would since the authors mention the fact that those recordings are generally superior due to the extra care in production justified by the more expensive formats. What difference should it make to the audiophile whether their superiority is due to their higher quality production standards(justified by their higher cost) or the format? If you want the higher quality audio you have no option but to buy those formats so, again, how is knowing the "format" is not where their advantage comes from going to have any marketing impact?. From my understanding both authors are respected veteran journalists with nothing to gain financially. I want to apologize for quoting the source which used perhaps overzealous language in describing this research. I think your negative reaction and the similar reaction from other TIG members who are true audiophiles is largely due to that language in the third party synopsis and not the study itself. One member has now even questioned the "AES itself" for publishing the study that I don't think he or many of us have actually read and I feel responsible for this negative reaction and wish I had not quoted that third party synopsis but had only provided the AES's own synopsis listed here: ++++++++++++ Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran 775 Conventional wisdom asserts that the wider bandwidth and dynamic range of SACD and DVD-A make them of audibly higher quality than the CD format. A carefully controlled double-blind test with many experienced listeners showed no ability to hear any differences between formats. High-resolution audio discs were still judged to be of superior quality because sound engineers have more freedom to make them that way. There is no evidence that perceived quality has anything to do with additional resolution or bandwidth. ++++++++++++++ There is no hyperbole and overzealous language there and it clearly states what you true audiophiles with DVD-A and SACD recordings already know - that your recordings in those formats sound better than ordinary CD's which is what I believe causes such a vehement reaction and fervent denial of what may at first glance appear to contradict your experience. But it doesn't. It simply says the reason for their superiority is not the format. Forget references to Nyquist and whether microphones can have a frequency response above 20 KHz (I have now found some with a 60 KHz spec which was news to me so I stand corrected) and all the other distractions we've branched into and consider the beautiful simplicity of what this study actually did which eliminates all of that: They started with the acknowledged superior format (both DVD-A and SACD separately) recordings and put them through the A/D/A loop "degrading" them to 16 bit 44.1 KHz. The double blind tests compared the "degraded" versions with the original. Can anyone actually disagree that this methodology rules out anything other than the final "playback format"? The source recordings had the "benefit" of better production, perhaps better microphones, etc. so that SACD or DVD-A recording benefit accrued to the degraded versions as well. The only difference was isolated to the playback format being 16 bit 44.1 KHz rather than 24 bit 192 KHz or SACD's 1 bit 2.8 MHz. I'd like to thank Chuck Harrison for suggesting: " I suggest we stop discussing the merits of this paper until somebody manifests the energy to get it from their nearest university library or the $20 to download it from AES http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195" And especially thank Michael Bittle for having that energy and his excellent post after "actually reading" the AES published paper. (Not really an AES paper as Michael points out but one they found credible enough to publish.) It would be great if we all had access to it but since that isn't the case I did find the following link to the Boston Audio Society where the authors of the study describe the tests they conducted, the equipment used, and source audio recordings in detail: http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/explanation.htm One author's email address is even included so I suppose he might even respond to questions if anyone feels the need. From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 13 14:47:07 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:47:07 -0200 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> Message-ID: On Jan 13, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Nick Johnson wrote: > I have to ask what "marketing considerations" you feel the authors > could > have possibly had? What is anyone going to sell "more of" hyperbole, as already stated, and could it be that Meridian is hammering home the point that Red Book is perfect because they want it to be. > From my > understanding both authors are respected veteran journalists with > nothing to > gain financially. let's agree to disagree, especially with regard to the language used :) > wish I had not quoted that third > party synopsis but had only provided the AES's own synopsis listed > here: can we make the report public? until it is, it can't be checked.. and perhaps there's some profit to be made in making it controversial.. (admitted cynicism kicking in :) ) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From mlbnyc at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 16:36:50 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:36:50 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <9E619A7D-7F20-4DFE-A24C-F39E967545B0@verizon.net> On Jan 13, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > can we make the report public? until it is, it can't be checked.. > and perhaps there's some > profit to be made in making it controversial.. (admitted cynicism > kicking in :) ) If I might hazard a guess at the source of all the angst, it is the various quotes that "there is no difference..." Well, yes and no. The report is speaking in terms of ability of listeners to correctly attribute "better" w/ "higher bit rate". It's not that listeners couldn't discern an actual difference, its that they couldn't correctly correlate better with hi-bit rate. Sort of like the "tube" thing, it's not more accurate but it sounds better to many. So the study accurately concludes that if listeners can't correctly correlate at even a 50% rate, it's entirely random and therefore hi-bit rate is not the source of "best sounding" audio. We know, and they acknowledge, that higher bit rates are more accurate, but that's not the question. The question is whether higher bit rate output explicitly translates to enhanced listening experience and the data shows it does not. Hope this helps. Cheers, Mike From rmayer at level3post.com Tue Jan 13 18:18:33 2009 From: rmayer at level3post.com (Roger Mayer) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 10:18:33 -0800 Subject: [Tig] temporal resolution and audio sync In-Reply-To: <002501c9754f$969f7ab0$c3de7010$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> <002501c9754f$969f7ab0$c3de7010$@rr.com> Message-ID: <9E97AF7B2357A8499AE9561C4383B611AFE6F5@alameda2901ex02.corp.ad> -----Original Message----- From: Nick Johnson >> They couldn't achieve perfect sync with one millisecond >> adjustment! At that point they should just move their chair towards or away from the screen. Roger H. Mayer Level 3 Post, Burbank, CA 818-840-7289 From adrian at autotv.co.uk Wed Jan 14 10:25:32 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:25:32 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <9E619A7D-7F20-4DFE-A24C-F39E967545B0@verizon.net> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> <9E619A7D-7F20-4DFE-A24C-F39E967545B0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <061B0B39-15AB-453D-A34F-1D2AFD4973E5@autotv.co.uk> On Jan 13, 2009, at 16:36, Michael Bittle wrote: > > Well, yes and no. The report is speaking in terms of ability of > listeners to correctly attribute "better" w/ "higher bit rate". > It's not that listeners couldn't discern an actual difference, its > that they couldn't correctly correlate better with hi-bit rate. > Sort of like the "tube" thing, it's not more accurate but it sounds > better to many. So the study accurately concludes that if > listeners can't correctly correlate at even a 50% rate, it's > entirely random and therefore hi-bit rate is not the source of > "best sounding" audio. We know, and they acknowledge, that higher > bit rates are more accurate, but that's not the question. The > question is whether higher bit rate output explicitly translates to > enhanced listening experience and the data shows it does not. > Good point. At university we did a little study where we showed two images to a group - one uncompressed TIFF and one fairly compressed JPEG and we were surprised to find many preferred the JPEG - the compression had made it a bit rougher but also more contrasty, and many favoured that effect. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From mfw at musictrax.com Wed Jan 14 05:24:15 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:24:15 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Audio Guy Chimes In Re: tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/12/09 9:25 AM, "Michael Bittle" wrote on the TIG: > I can't find any basis to reject it out of hand. So this article, > it's authors (and the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society) have > performed a useful service in forcing me to reexamine my biases and > better understand the factors affecting what I am experiencing vis > high bit rate audio... >------------------------------------------------------------< I find it amusing that the Telecine Internet Group's most long-winded thread in months has been a thread about the audibility of high bitrate _sound_ systems. (!) I've known the AES writer in question, Brad Meyer, for more than 25 years, and consider him a friend. I can attest that he's a very dedicated guy, extraordinarily knowledgable, and has a degree in acoustics and a long career in sound recording and mastering, over in the Boston area. He's also a good guy -- very level-headed, fair-minded, and no B.S. Brad's AES paper is 100% on the money. I agree with him that the real-life advantages of high bitrate recording are vanishingly small, and I think 48kHz is more than enough for 99.9% of most situations out there. Anything else is just smoke and mirrors. (Digital compression is another discussion. We're assuming uncompressed material here.) Putting it in telecine terms: the audible differences between 48kHz and 96kHz are less than what I can see between 2K and 4K film scans. Extremely subtle at best. But at the same time, 96kHz does no harm. If people want to buy recordings made at this sampling rate, that's cool. I'm just not convinced there's a big difference between those and a well-mastered 44.1kHz CD. There are benefits to higher sampling rates and bit-depths provided there's going to be a lot of sound processing further down the chain. This is the main reason sound effects people sometimes record at 96kHz or even 192kHz, just to make speed variations easier to accomplish with a minimum of sample rate correction issues. And 24-bit recordings are necessary, for the same reason. They help in later situations where you need to compress the dynamic range and reduce the noise floor. (That's assuming you're in a place capable of handling 144 dB's of dynamic range.) --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From mfw at musictrax.com Wed Jan 14 05:31:33 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:31:33 -0800 Subject: [Tig] temporal resolution and audio sync In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/12/09 5:11 PM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > Also as you must know, audio 1 frame late > is more pleasing than audio 1 frame early, and has to do with what we > expect from real-world (non-video) conditions, where the sound will be > late by a fraction of a second due to physics. >------------------------------------------------------------< True. And yet every editor I know of usually prefers for sound to be early at least half a frame. I've been told that when film prints are made, they deliberately shift the print-master sound by at least half a frame early, so that when the image is projected, the picture and sound will reach an average viewer in the middle of the theater at the same moment (light moving much faster than sound). Also, Avid editors working in SD tell me they'd rather have material at least a field early relative to picture, because of the 2:3 field drop. They can only jog in whole frames, so they can't see/hear the clap if it's on an odd field. It's a lot of smoke and mirrors. Me, I do whatever I have to do to keep the client happy. (Even if it's illegal, immoral, or fattening.) --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From njohnson at sc.rr.com Tue Jan 13 23:45:17 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:45:17 -0500 Subject: [Tig] temporal resolution and audio sync In-Reply-To: <9E97AF7B2357A8499AE9561C4383B611AFE6F5@alameda2901ex02.corp.ad> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <1231800889.6739.60.camel@ywwg> <1231808058.6739.77.camel@ywwg> <002501c9754f$969f7ab0$c3de7010$@rr.com> <9E97AF7B2357A8499AE9561C4383B611AFE6F5@alameda2901ex02.corp.ad> Message-ID: <017201c975d8$fd514fc0$f7f3ef40$@rr.com> Roger, I know your response may have been partially in jest but I think you might be amazed that probably wouldn't help. My comment: >> They couldn't achieve perfect sync with one millisecond >> adjustment! Your response: "At that point they should just move their chair towards or away from the screen." It certainly seem like that should work but we discovered something very strange when adjusting for perfect "perceived" lip-sync: Even though sound travels about 13 inches per millisecond it doesn't seem to matter whether you move closer or father away from the screen. We had a booth at InfoComm and on that large floor some customers were adjusting from across the aisle and some were close and we realized the delays to achieve sync were the same. Since then I have tested this at home and found the same to be true and my son in LA - the one with the Red camera - has noticed the same thing. This implies our brains adjust for sync "at the screen surface" or maybe at some depth "behind the screen" and has automatically factored in that perceived distance as well as our distance from the screen as we adjust it. Of course continually adjusting to the millisecond is probably as distracting as the lip-sync error would have been so it's probably best to settle for "good" rather than "perfect" and adjust only for each new DVD or program. If you try to keep it "perfect" ADR will drive you crazy! From njohnson at sc.rr.com Tue Jan 13 23:50:18 2009 From: njohnson at sc.rr.com (Nick Johnson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:50:18 -0500 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <017701c975d9$b072b3f0$11581bd0$@rr.com> Rob, I think cynicism is good - or I should say it is definitely good to want proof before accepting new facts that fly in the face of one's previous assumptions. Your comment: " could it be that Meridian is hammering home the point that Red Book is perfect because they want it to be." Caused me to Google "Meridian" to see what you were referencing so just in case there might be others as ignorant as I in the high end audiophile equipment area, it seems "Meridian" is a manufacturer which doesn't offer DVD-A or SACD equipment but instead sells high end CD (Redbook) equipment. Is that the correct "Meridian" reference? If so, I don't see how this research is going to increase their sales. On the contrary, the report states very clearly that DVD-A and SACD recordings are audibly "superior". If an audiophile wants superior sound he has no option but to buy those higher priced hi-res formats and can't use any Meridian equipment. Or am I missing something? But even if a company with a financial incentive funded a study like this one, I wouldn't categorically reject it. I would maintain a degree of extra skepticism but if the study proved to be valid I wouldn't discount it. In our business I often quote a published research paper done at Stanford University which showed that lip-sync error (especially leading audio as you mentioned in a recent post) has a negative impact on viewer perception "even when the viewer doesn't consciously notice it". But that study was funded by Pixel Instruments who is one of the largest manufacturers of lip-sync correction equipment for the broadcast industry. They certainly should benefit from those findings but I don't think that should reflect negatively upon Stanford or the researchers who conducted the study. I realize the tendency to discount findings that benefit a company funding the research but who is going to pay for research other than someone who may benefit from what is discovered? My company tried to interest the authors of the Stanford research in new follow-on research that would have used "eye tracking" technology to prove our belief that reality contradicting lip-sync error causes the viewer's eyes to subliminally look away from the lips and faces of the characters. Our hypothesis is that such avoidance causes the feelings documented at Stanford that the characters are "more agitated, less successful, less persuasive, etc." just as if the characters were avoiding eye contact with the viewer. Of course we could be wrong but if we were right it would also explain why most viewers do not notice significant lip-sync error (40 ms or more) until asked "to deliberately focus on the lips" after which many can amazingly detect sync errors down to a few milliseconds. The purpose of our research would of course be to raise awareness of lip-sync error's negative impact and hopefully influence home theater owners to want to "focus on the lips" so as to notice lip-sync error and correct it. And buy our product to do it of course. Would that invalidate the research? But all this is to say that "even if" a study is funded by a company that might benefit from its findings I don't think it should be rejected without some other evidence it was faulty and provided erroneous results. Most research is funded by those who might benefit. If we ever interest a university in our eye-tracking study I would hope that its results would not be categorically rejected because we funded it. But back to the research at hand: Do you have any information to suggest it was funded by any company who could benefit? It appears to be an independent study to me so please don't let my defense of studies that "are" funded by those who might benefit imply that this study was one of them. I don't think it was. From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 14 14:24:08 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (rob at colorist.org) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:24:08 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <017701c975d9$b072b3f0$11581bd0$@rr.com> References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> <017701c975d9$b072b3f0$11581bd0$@rr.com> Message-ID: > > " could it be that Meridian is hammering home the point that Red Book is > perfect because they want it to be." > > Caused me to Google "Meridian" to see what you were referencing so just in > case there might be others as ignorant as I in the high end audiophile > equipment area, it seems "Meridian" is a manufacturer which doesn't offer > DVD-A or SACD equipment but instead sells high end CD (Redbook) hi nick, your original posting contained a reference that "The Formidable (name forgotten) of Meridian...." regards Rob on a terminal in Frankfurt airport From mlbnyc at verizon.net Wed Jan 14 15:47:44 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:47:44 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Audio Guy Chimes In Re: tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: <26545484216AA148BC00E2A6D4A5ACAF0283D6E5@arizona730ex.corp.ad> References: <26545484216AA148BC00E2A6D4A5ACAF0283D6E5@arizona730ex.corp.ad> Message-ID: <7E78484E-A9E1-4D89-96F8-FDE6A6A55F0E@verizon.net> On Jan 14, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Philip Mendelson wrote: > Well said, Marc. > > Now do we want to shift the discussion to the use of $300 power > cords made with oxygen free copper? > > Phil ... or my all time favorite: green magic marker around the edge of the CD. Mike From Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk Wed Jan 14 15:52:58 2009 From: Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk (Laurence Claydon) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:52:58 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio In-Reply-To: References: <200901090611_MC3-2-19A7-A583@compuserve.com> <042101c97299$eb6e0ab0$c24a2010$@com> <0E9A3C82-208A-49BE-B087-41810BFC0D64@colorist.org> <044901c972ed$6d046530$470d2f90$@com> <68BEE47B-C076-4544-9B3C-2A787549DE92@earthlink.net> <04e601c97482$099fd510$1cdf7f30$@com> <8DAF0B5D-9D17-4270-8B3D-31B33A197E1E@colorist.org> <002a01c97555$4a7a78a0$df6f69e0$@rr.com> <017701c975d9$b072b3f0$11581bd0$@rr.com> Message-ID: Meridian does support DVD-A, and indeed is the inventor of Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP), which has become a core encoding method for DVD-Audio. MLP is licensed by Meridian to Dolby Laboratories. I have a view on this thread, having started my career in audio, having been an AES Member, and contributor at AES events here in the UK. Anyone who wants to hear it can contact me off list...! Laurence Claydon Deluxe Digital London -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of rob at colorist.org Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:24 PM To: Nick Johnson Cc: 'tig tig' Subject: Re: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== > > " could it be that Meridian is hammering home the point that Red Book is > perfect because they want it to be." > > Caused me to Google "Meridian" to see what you were referencing so just in > case there might be others as ignorant as I in the high end audiophile > equipment area, it seems "Meridian" is a manufacturer which doesn't offer > DVD-A or SACD equipment but instead sells high end CD (Redbook) hi nick, your original posting contained a reference that "The Formidable (name forgotten) of Meridian...." regards Rob on a terminal in Frankfurt airport _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From steve.simon at snellwilcox.com Wed Jan 14 14:51:40 2009 From: steve.simon at snellwilcox.com (Steve Simon) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:51:40 +0000 Subject: [Tig] tig:Blu (e) Ray & HD Audio Message-ID: <55127803f721213830f299a2f2aa4645@snellwilcox.com> > ...one uncompressed TIFF and one fairly compressed > JPEG and we were surprised to find many preferred the JPEG... Similarly if you do *lots* of noise reduction to video and remove all noise (or grain if film sourced) the pictures will look soft. This is not an artifact of the noise reduction, its a perceptual issue, though no less real for that. perhaps you where seeing the converse of this? -Steve This email and any attachments is confidential, may be legally privileged and is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any use, disclosure, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If received in error, please delete this email and any attachments and confirm this to the sender. From Stn3 at aol.com Wed Jan 14 17:10:26 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:10:26 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Blue-Ray Disc of Serenity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8155C73AB26341F78D13C8A4F3AB92DF@DESKTOP> Has anyone besides myself listened to a copy of the Blue-Ray disc of "Serenity"? The soundtracks are all DTS encoded, and the domestic English track plays almost 6 db higher gain than a normal disc. The peak highs (explosions, etc) badly distort in my system. I have many discs that have DTS tracks, and none behave in this fashion. The non AC3 encoded Dolby Digital track has normal peaks, and does not distort. I would be interested if anyone else on the TIG has observed this problem. Does anyone have an email contact at Universal Home Video that might know of this problem? If they so desire, they could contact me privately. Tom Nottingham Retired Colorist From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 15 15:56:12 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:56:12 +0200 Subject: [Tig] now on the TIG classifieds Message-ID: now appearing at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds --- Position available for a Dailies Colourist with a minimum of 1 year experience. This is an entry level position. This person will be responsible for telecining dailies in a front-end lab and will be based in Spain, and should be willing to work night shifts at times. Knowledge base: Pandora Pogle and Spirit 2K. English is a must and Spanish is a plus. CATEGORY: FILMMAKING / POSTPRODUCTION JOBS CONTACT: JESUS HARO CINELABVACANCY at GOOGLEMAIL.COM LOCATION: ALICANTE, SPAIN LONG TERM JOB -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From dvhitman at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 16:35:02 2009 From: dvhitman at hotmail.com (Justin Lovell) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:35:02 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Realtime Dirt/dust/scratch and Grain Mgmt tools References: <004501c96f53$43d71e70$cb855b50$@com> Message-ID: Thanks for the feedback guys. I've tested the Teranex box, and in my setup many of the features don't work. However I can say that the SD> HD upconversion is FANTASTIC. Very impressed with the quality. It was doing a better upconvert than what I was able to produce through rescale renders in After Effects. The recursive noise reducer was also quite good. I'm changing my workflow a little bit to capture via ethernet as DATA and will create a new thread with some other questions. Justin Lovell Cinematograhper/Colorist Toronto, Canada www.FrameDiscreet.blogspot.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 15 16:40:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:40:14 +0200 Subject: [Tig] reels space available Message-ID: <82D4EC1B-4713-42C8-9829-2EE86DE32263@colorist.org> space available to colorists on the TIG site: http://reels.colorist.org and in rotation on the main TIG wiki page. contact rob at colorist.org for details. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From info at framediscreet.com Thu Jan 15 16:55:37 2009 From: info at framediscreet.com (Justin - Frame Discreet) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:55:37 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Comparing Color Finesse/Neucoda/Speedgrade + others for post grading Message-ID: <001c01c97732$1a8258f0$c600a8c0@frameother> Hey fellas, Just wondering if anyone has any feedback on these different software based solutions. I would have to build a hardware configuration to manage the files for quick rendering as well. My workflow is going to be capturing the frames as DATA files in 1920 or 2k. Imaging sensor for frame grabbing may be the SI2k Mini or Prosillica Machine Vision Camera. Still deciding if the capture will be cineform or DPX or another format. Keeping in mind that Speedgrade XR does not handle DPX (have to double the price and get speedgrade DI for image sequences). Color Finesse 2 (synthetic aperature): Can be run out of After Effects - allowing you to use multiple additional effect plugins (ie dust busting, motion tracking etc etc). Has quite a number of options for grading control, like sliders/equalizers/intgerate panel control (for relatively cheap, by JL cooper) and even Curves. Monitoring can be done through software in RGB parade, histograms, luminance.. pretty much every style of scope is available. No realtime playback, RAM previews, however scrubbing the clip does automatically update the scopes. Awesome to be able to use After Effects' batch render controls which I am very familiar with. (I was working as a VFX artist in AE previously..). Speedgrade XR (Iridas): Wicked little program. Can handle realtime Red RAW and Cineform. Have to upgrade to DI for Image sequence grading (tiff/dpx). Primary and secondary controls are quite good. Render times are comparable to that in CFinesse - though SGrade has background rendering so you can render a clip and continue to grade while it is processing. Only RGB parade and Histogram view available- non updating during playback, only updates when playback is stopped. Some nice shaders available (basically layer effects like in photoshop). No option for dust/dirt removal - though they are working closely with pixelfarm. I have had great experience with their company for support thus far. Neucoda (Digital Vision): I have no experience yet. System is the most expensive of those mentioned above. Does have dust/dirt removal controls. Rumor has it the company is filing for bankrupcy, I cannot confirm this though. So I am cautious about investing in this system if it will not have support in a couple years time from now. Great support from the sales team thus far about their systems. I'm also considering assimilate Scratch, though I have no experience with the system. Color for Mac was also recommended if you can build a good render farm. I'm likely going to go with Iridas because I'm possibly going to integrate the SI2k mini camera as my imaging sensor for 'scanning' film. (more like photographing the film). The frames would be captured using the native Cineform RAW codec, then graded in Speedgrade and ouput for clients. Initial testing using speedgrade on a HP dual dual quad system rendering on a sepreate fiber render setup on 60' (approx 2 mins) of 16mm film @ 24fps 1920x1080 Blackmagic 10bit with minor primary grading took approx 25mins to render. Not great. SD footage takes 1/3 of the time respectively. Anyone else have any recommendations or feedback on systems they recommend? The price range would ideally be 30K-60k... or lower ;) I know.. that's a tough one. Justin Lovell Cinematograhper/Colorist Toronto, Canada www.FrameDiscreet.blogspot.com From David.Corbitt at hbo.com Thu Jan 15 21:53:12 2009 From: David.Corbitt at hbo.com (Corbitt, David (HBO-NS)) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:53:12 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Slim Time Code Reader Message-ID: <20090115215307.26B5CC40072@mail2.hbo.com> I'm looking for a slim profile SMPTE/EBU time code reader / display with approximately 3/4 inch to 1 inch high digits. I want to mount it on a wall and don't want to cut a hole in the wall so a slim profile unit is what I need. Any ideas or suggestions? Answer offline if it may be construed as commercial. Thanks Dave Corbitt | Project Manager HBO Studios | 120 A E 23rd St New York, NY 10010 david.corbitt at hbo.com phone 212-512-7812 | cell 973-714-2322 ============================================================================== This e-mail is intended only for the use of the addressees. Any copying, forwarding, printing or other use of this e-mail by persons other than the addressees is not authorized. This e-mail may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately by return e-mail (including the original message in your reply) and then delete and discard all copies of the e-mail. Thank you. From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Thu Jan 15 22:25:32 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:25:32 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Comparing Color Finesse/Neucoda/Speedgrade + others for post grading In-Reply-To: <001c01c97732$1a8258f0$c600a8c0@frameother> References: <001c01c97732$1a8258f0$c600a8c0@frameother> Message-ID: <496FB7DC.2030409@free.fr> Well, I wouldn't put Nucoda in this list as it's sold mostly as an integrated system, but I think on the lower end of the range you can have it as a software too. Scratch would give you, depending on the options, some compositing capabilities too, but you won't have much of that for your budget, but you show a quite large range of prices. What really misses in your description is what you want to do with it. If it's for twiggling in your garage and you have time almost anything would do the job. If you have deadlines, it's another story. If you have a client sitting next to you, it's another another story. Consider you'll have to put some kind of colour management solution on top of that, but once again depend on what you want to achieve. I'm currently working on a funny project involving Iridas and Digital Vision products and there would be a third one too. Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows back from Cairo, and that was great From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 15 23:03:06 2009 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:03:06 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Slim Time Code Reader In-Reply-To: <20090115215307.26B5CC40072@mail2.hbo.com> References: <20090115215307.26B5CC40072@mail2.hbo.com> Message-ID: <3124E31A7748483D868EB80F81A7372D@desktop> Hi Dave, Try these links... http://www.ese-web.com/279.htm http://www.horita.com/smpteLED.htm http://www.bcdusa.com/tc100/index.php http://www.bcs.tv/store/model_detail.cfm?id=805855 http://pictures.linktronix.ch/Videolink/2-Products/3-Broadcast/01%20-%20Sign al%20Processing/06-Reference%20Products/04-Time%20Products/UDC-5212.pdf Worst case, you could get out the soldering iron.... http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/components/eureka/index.htm Enjoy Jeff -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Corbitt, David (HBO-NS) Sent: 15 January 2009 21:53 To: tig at colorist.org Subject: [Tig] Slim Time Code Reader 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== I'm looking for a slim profile SMPTE/EBU time code reader / display with approximately 3/4 inch to 1 inch high digits. I want to mount it on a wall and don't want to cut a hole in the wall so a slim profile unit is what I need. Any ideas or suggestions? Answer offline if it may be construed as commercial. Thanks Dave Corbitt | Project Manager HBO Studios | 120 A E 23rd St New York, NY 10010 david.corbitt at hbo.com phone 212-512-7812 | cell 973-714-2322 ============================================================================ == This e-mail is intended only for the use of the addressees. Any copying, forwarding, printing or other use of this e-mail by persons other than the addressees is not authorized. This e-mail may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately by return e-mail (including the original message in your reply) and then delete and discard all copies of the e-mail. Thank you. _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Jan 15 23:02:22 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:02:22 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Slim Time Code Reader In-Reply-To: <20090115215307.26B5CC40072@mail2.hbo.com> References: <20090115215307.26B5CC40072@mail2.hbo.com> Message-ID: <91B891F7-C32D-4AB1-A1C9-1381DC9139D0@tedlangdell.com> Hi, Dave, On Jan 15, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Corbitt, David (HBO-NS) wrote: > I'm looking for a slim profile SMPTE/EBU time code reader / display > with > approximately 3/4 inch to 1 inch high digits. I want to mount it on a > wall and don't want to cut a hole in the wall so a slim profile unit > is > what I need. Any ideas or suggestions? Answer offline if it may be > construed as commercial. > > Thanks ESE makes several units with 2.3" high Yellow LED's. http://www.ese-web.com/smpte.htm If you're looking for something quick and relatively inexpensive... and only need to read 29.97DF or NDF... perhaps you can take a time code reader/inserter with NTSC output off the shelf in the back room... and feed the video out to a relatively inexpensive LCD TV set with video input. Seems to me I've seen those at around $150 or so. Hope this is helpful. (No financial connection to ESE, LED, LCD or TV mentioned in this post.) Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From shukkra at yahoo.in Fri Jan 16 07:47:33 2009 From: shukkra at yahoo.in (Mr Shukkra) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:17:33 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Tig] RED color LED DD3 BLINKING in the ANR board of DVNR 1000 Message-ID: <116929.5773.qm@web95114.mail.in2.yahoo.com>   Hi    Does anyone have experience with the problem in the DVNR1000 ANR board? the problem is the RED color LED  "DD3"  is blinking slowly, at that time the flicker appears in the monitor.   Anybody faced this type of problem or anyone known about it?   Waiting for good reply.   Thanks   Shukkran Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Go to http://in..messenger.yahoo.com/ From underscan at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 11:20:11 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:20:11 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Color Calibration Tools Message-ID: hi everyone what are the pros and cons of todays color calibration tools available. i know of cinespace, truelight, the kodak system (don´t know the name anymore). so my questions are: what else is on the market? how do these systems work comparable to eachother? do they work with any grading system? i´m looking into buying one for our new suite. any recommendations highly appreciated! all the best and a happy new year! cheerz mark wagner -- underscan films | berlin From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 16 14:48:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:48:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] reversal film look from video? Message-ID: <93279B71-964B-47C9-9283-50DC5C0305F2@colorist.org> I have a client who would like to achieve a reversal-film look from video-originated material (probably from D21 or RED). What he likes about typical reversal film is the grain, the off-color and slightly stained and toned look of 16mm reversal. Of course, my first suggestion was to shoot 16mm reversal, but that appears not to be an option. any advice much appreciated. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From pickettscharge at hotmail.com Fri Jan 16 15:30:07 2009 From: pickettscharge at hotmail.com (Dave Pickett) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:30:07 -0500 Subject: [Tig] reversal film look from video? In-Reply-To: <93279B71-964B-47C9-9283-50DC5C0305F2@colorist.org> References: <93279B71-964B-47C9-9283-50DC5C0305F2@colorist.org> Message-ID: Rob, I had some success last year on video origination with a daVinci by dragging the blue channel to zero on the gui. Then drove the gain pretty hard to cause it to break up a bit and added a little texture with the defocus tool in reverse. Adjust the blue gain channel to taste. A hard vignette and it looked pretty good. If it is originated on RED it would probably be beneficial to set your transcode up to give you a lot of headroom for highlites so your whites dont go screaming off the charts before you tear the video a bit. Good luck, Dave Dave Pickett Colorist Colorbay - Atlanta > From: rob at colorist.org > To: tig at tig.colorist.org > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:48:02 +0200 > Subject: [Tig] reversal film look from video? > > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > I have a client who would like to achieve a reversal-film look from > video-originated material (probably from D21 or RED). What he likes > about typical reversal film is the grain, the off-color and slightly > stained and toned look of 16mm reversal. > > Of course, my first suggestion was to shoot 16mm reversal, but that > appears not to be an option. > > any advice much appreciated. > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Fri Jan 16 17:35:01 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:35:01 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Color Calibration Tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4970C545.50504@free.fr> Hi Mark, a couple of inputs: Cinespace: +: compatible with a lot of formats, flexible, nodelock and floating license, compatible with a lot of probes -: need to send the film out to Adelaide, Australia for profiling Kodak KDM: +: can work with sensitometry curve for lab measurement -: encoded LUTs, don't work with all systems or need to use their processing box, or you pay a premium to get site license and open format, licensing scheme Truelight: +: comes with a probe for projectors and monitors, service in Europe (almost, London ;-) -: need to use a plugin since they use encrypted LUTs or their hardware processing box (as KDM) I'd add to your list the Arri CMS, looks like now you can get the CMS tool and a specially calibrated probe and profile yourself your display devices, and for you it's local, great for service and support. They all use the same concept, about profiling display and film, except the Kodak has made an engine that can generate a Kodak print profile without measuring the result, but by adding some lab informations. Can be handy if you don't have time to profile the film. Disclaimer: I do colour calibration and colour management training and have used KDM and Cinespace in production environment. Cheers, Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net workflows&pipelines Lille, France for the next couple of weeks > > what are the pros and cons of todays color calibration tools available. > i know of cinespace, truelight, the kodak system (don´t know the name > anymore). > > so my questions are: > what else is on the market? > how do these systems work comparable to eachother? > do they work with any grading system? > From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 16 18:24:27 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:24:27 +0200 Subject: [Tig] HDR used on press photos Message-ID: High Dynamic Range techniques seem to be gaining momentum in the world of press images for web and print. I notice this one in particular: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/nyregion/17crashcnd.html?hp the shot of the plane and crane seem to be brought up significantly in relation to the background, or vice versa. I wonder if this shot was done at 2 exposures, then blended in Photoshop. How much HDR work is being done in grading of motion pictures these days? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adolfo at newhat.tv Sun Jan 18 01:28:49 2009 From: adolfo at newhat.tv (Adolfo Martinelli) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:28:49 -0800 Subject: [Tig] eDef Media Labs Message-ID: Hi, Anyone have contact info for eDef Media Labs in LA? They seem impossible to find. Please contact me off list. Thanks, Adolfo Martinelli From rob at colorist.org Sun Jan 18 03:21:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 05:21:30 +0200 Subject: [Tig] "facilities needed in Pakistan" Message-ID: <0BFAAACA-12A5-4013-8A53-F9619548285D@colorist.org> from http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=157667 an article dated Jan. 18 2009 states that "state of the art facilities are needed for 16mm, 35mm..." the article is vague on that exact point, but there might be enough information for manufacturers to submit an enquiry to the author, should his address be retrievable somehow. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From jfmann at optimum.net Sun Jan 18 07:06:27 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:06:27 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Alicante Dailies Colourist In-Reply-To: <0BFAAACA-12A5-4013-8A53-F9619548285D@colorist.org> References: <0BFAAACA-12A5-4013-8A53-F9619548285D@colorist.org> Message-ID: <000601c9793b$480861b0$d8192510$@net> http://www.mandy.com/1/jobs3.cfm?v=31564292 I saw this add on Mandy.com and thought someone might be interested. Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From rob at colorist.org Sun Jan 18 16:10:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:10:25 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Alicante Dailies Colourist In-Reply-To: <000601c9793b$480861b0$d8192510$@net> References: <0BFAAACA-12A5-4013-8A53-F9619548285D@colorist.org> <000601c9793b$480861b0$d8192510$@net> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Jim Mann wrote: > http://www.mandy.com/1/jobs3.cfm?v=31564292 > > I saw this add on Mandy.com and thought someone might be interested. Hi Jim, it's been on the TIG classifieds: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds along with 2 other open positions. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sun Jan 18 20:48:52 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:48:52 +0200 Subject: [Tig] GPG version mailinglist Message-ID: <70AA795F-63A1-441E-A2EC-8A2E512EB55D@colorist.org> please see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/GPG_mailinglist which is a feature in development (beta) that provides encryption incoming and outgoing, of all mailinglist functions in a new implementation (separate from the TIG for now). -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 19 19:18:24 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:18:24 +0200 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested Message-ID: <3058366B-3004-4FB2-BB24-7AFC3889667B@colorist.org> There is a 'colorist stats' page added to the TIG wiki. It is somewhat DaVinci-centric, but includes more generic questions as well. Thanks to Dean Lyon for the suggestion. Any other manufacturer wanting to rip off this idea ( :] ) might be able to do so with the proper needling. http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Davinci_History there is a TableEdit feature that allows TIG wiki users to add information. I'm sure I don't qualify in my categories but I got the ball rolling anyway. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder.colorist rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 19 19:51:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:51:50 +0200 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: <3058366B-3004-4FB2-BB24-7AFC3889667B@colorist.org> References: <3058366B-3004-4FB2-BB24-7AFC3889667B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <69909AD9-5366-4753-AB80-BDDDABCF4106@colorist.org> incidentally, I'm curious who is the Youngest Colorist Retired. Also, vis-a-vis the recent events on the Hudson River, the questions about "oldest" might well be rephrased "experienced" and be seen in a new light. And I was called upon to assist a bird (albeit a sparrow) out of the company holdings just a couple of months ago. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 19 20:17:48 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:17:48 +0200 Subject: [Tig] to John Davidson Message-ID: <078E2DBF-5A63-48FB-998A-FEE154B2F576@colorist.org> hey John, are you still on a DaVinci? if so can please edit the last column to show.. and.. congratulations on your experience. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 19 20:52:43 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:52:43 +0200 Subject: [Tig] putative winner, davinci user sweepstakes Message-ID: <35914862-141C-4F38-9070-18626E3F4E69@colorist.org> John Davidson has been using a DaVinci since the earliest(est) days, and is still doing so, with its recent incarnations. which adds up to 25 years. so far, he wins the sweepstakes, and so, the question goes to DaVinci, what does he win? I would suggest, a free pass to a Wayne Newton show in Las Vegas at NAB. Or, a placard, registered and not replicatable in any store, certifying him as "in emeritus Lauderdale" status as the guy to have at the controls. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 19 21:22:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:22:35 +0200 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux Message-ID: so, here we are in web 2.0 or web 47.456 whatever you want to call it. social networking, ad absurdium (in my humble opinion). we have: Orkut (my first social net site, based in Brasil, will always think of fondly) Sonic Facebook (must admit, this is one of the better ones, though it has succumbed to commercialism in a big way- links lead to erotic sites) LinkedIn - my least favorite of all. Commercial in the extreme. >...there are many others. As colorists, engineers, and facility people, what do we think are the more valuable sites/memberships? Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TiG admin.founder.colorist rob at colorist.org From mkp at poimboeuf.com Tue Jan 20 03:35:11 2009 From: mkp at poimboeuf.com (Michael Poimboeuf) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:35:11 -0800 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6DE42D48-2EBA-4D30-9A34-E9C1D457E01E@poimboeuf.com> I use linkedin extensively. It has plenty of control settings to limit inmail, and I haven't had any problems with commercial ads or spam. I'm not affiliated with linkedin. BTW I'm not affiliated with Avid anymore as of Jan 1st 2009, and I'm working as an independent consultant now in the San Francisco bay area. -- mkp at poimboeuf.com linkedin.com/in/poimboeuf From underscan at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 18:29:32 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:29:32 +0100 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED7AE71-5474-4686-B22E-4B61A00E167D@gmail.com> i also use xing.com (originally from germany now spanning the globe) good for business and lost friends from school ; ) i´m not affiliated with them of course! cheerz mark Am 19.01.2009 um 22:22 schrieb Rob Lingelbach: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > so, here we are in web 2.0 or web 47.456 whatever you want to call it. > > social networking, ad absurdium (in my humble opinion). we have: > Orkut (my first social net site, based in Brasil, will always think > of fondly) > Sonic > Facebook (must admit, this is one of the better ones, though it > has succumbed to > commercialism in a big way- links lead to erotic sites) > LinkedIn - my least favorite of all. Commercial in the extreme. > > >...there are many others. > > As colorists, engineers, and facility people, what do we think are > the more valuable > sites/memberships? > > Rob > -- > Rob Lingelbach TiG admin.founder.colorist > rob at colorist.org -- underscan films | berlin From rob at cinelab.com Tue Jan 20 22:09:23 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:09:23 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Digi-4 out there? In-Reply-To: <3058366B-3004-4FB2-BB24-7AFC3889667B@colorist.org> References: <3058366B-3004-4FB2-BB24-7AFC3889667B@colorist.org> Message-ID: Hi Anybody have a Digi-4 out there they would like to get rid of? preferably modified for digital deflection? -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From underscan at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 23:51:46 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:51:46 +0100 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux TEST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43799E19-43AB-4D1D-9135-A4B600D8A1C4@gmail.com> somehow my mails never show up in the list when posting??? so trying it again. cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From roblingelbach at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 10:08:53 2009 From: roblingelbach at gmail.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:08:53 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Oldest color grading system. References: <200901210505_MC3-2-1A25-A5B0@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: peter_swinson > Date: January 21, 2009 12:05:09 PM GMT+02:00 > To: Rob > Subject: Oldest color grading system. > > Rob, > > I guess someone out there, probably India, is still using Hazeltines > for > neg grading. Assuming these come under this "color grade" heading, and > having commisioned Hazeltines back in the 1970's and repaired > Hazeltines > from the 50' 60's I would be intrigued to know. Maybe you should ask > on the > forum for people to include such devices. > > 50' 60's Hazeltines type 2100 Vacuum tube with round RCA Display > CRT. > 70's Hazeltines type 200 Transistorised. 4:3 Display > Shadow > Mask, then PIL > Late 70's onwards Hazeltines 116 & 135. I.Cs & Transistors 4:3 > Display > PIL > > All used 5 inch Scaner and PMTs (mainly RCA) > > Hazeltine also made, for a short while, an incredible Graphic Arts > analyser. If I remember correctly you place Y,C,M seperation negs, > up to > 10" x 8", side by side on a flat bed, had either 3 scanning CRTs, > one over > each neg, or 1 scanning CRT and a optical system that split beam > into three > areas. Then under each neg an approprite pick up PEC (PMT) for each > neg. It > was a real beast. I remember installing one at a Graphics art > exhibition in > MIlan in 1973., Have a piccy of me + Italian Arts Minister somewhere! > > Some of this is a bit vague now I have rolled over the 60 hill. > > cheers > > Peter > > p.s. Feel free to put this as is on TIG if you wish. > -- Rob Lingelbach roblingelbach at gmail.com From jfmann at optimum.net Wed Jan 21 15:50:34 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:50:34 -0500 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux TEST In-Reply-To: <43799E19-43AB-4D1D-9135-A4B600D8A1C4@gmail.com> References: <43799E19-43AB-4D1D-9135-A4B600D8A1C4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001101c97bdf$ff760d60$fe622820$@net> Mark wrote: >somehow my mails never show up in the list when posting??? >so trying it again. Well, Mark it's working now....as for social networking, I use linkedin primarily. But also maintain a Plaxo page mostly out of politeness because some in our group use it. Recently I made a Facebook page but just to make it easier to watch what my kids are doing. Regards, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Jan 21 17:08:23 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:08:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux In-Reply-To: <6DE42D48-2EBA-4D30-9A34-E9C1D457E01E@poimboeuf.com> References: <6DE42D48-2EBA-4D30-9A34-E9C1D457E01E@poimboeuf.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009, Michael Poimboeuf wrote: > > I use linkedin extensively. It has plenty of control settings to limit > inmail, and I haven't had any problems with commercial ads or spam. Agreed. All of the mentioned sites are "commercial". I find Linked-In to be quite useful to stay in touch with former work-mates. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 21 17:16:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:16:33 +0200 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux In-Reply-To: References: <6DE42D48-2EBA-4D30-9A34-E9C1D457E01E@poimboeuf.com> Message-ID: <6F3772B2-0FC0-4DA7-9BF7-CC0FD7D14D09@colorist.org> On Jan 21, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Agreed. All of the mentioned sites are "commercial". I find Linked- > In to be quite useful to stay in touch with former work-mates. the "Film-TV Professionals" group has a lot of spam, so I unjoined. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From alanr at bhphoto.com Wed Jan 21 17:34:03 2009 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:34:03 -0500 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C0A9DDF@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> I use both Facebook and LinkedIn for business and keeping in touch. I have somehow managed to link to over 500 people on LinkedIn, most from my 35 years in this industry. Amazed at some of the folks I've found on there. Alan Rosenfeld The Studio - B&H From roblingelbach at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 17:56:42 2009 From: roblingelbach at gmail.com (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:56:42 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Invitation to "Make it in Post - Cinematography and Post-production" Hamburg 24 Jan. References: <4977619A.5020602@suys.de> Message-ID: <77D8A990-788C-447F-8445-99EEA08A6A3B@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: Emmanuel SUYS > Date: January 21, 2009 7:55:38 PM GMT+02:00 > To: Rob Lingelbach > Subject: Invitation to "Make it in Post - Cinematography and Post- > production" Hamburg 24 Jan. > Reply-To: emmanuel.cml at suys.de > > Perhaps I thought this could be of interest to some of the German > members or Hamburg based members of the TIG. > > > The BVK, German Society of Cinematographers, whilst holding its > Annual General Assembly this coming week-end, is holding a series of > presentations or lectures this coming Saturday 24th of January. > The theme of the symposium is "Making it in Post - Cinematography > and Post-production". Location is Studio Hamburg, Jensfelder Allee > 80, 22039 Hamburg. Some participants to the presentations or > lectures are: > - Benjamin Müller / DedoWeigert "/Life is to short for 24 frames / > Highspeed in HD"/ > - Rolf Coulanges bvk - /"Postpro with Raw date D-21"/ > - Martin Ludwig bvk & Florian Rettich bvk - /"Documentary and Post- > production with RED" > /- Alexander Schwarz / VANTAGE - /"Prepping for Post- > production ,the PSU-3 on Set"/ > -Stefan Ciupek / P+S Technik - / "Slumdog Millionaire" (SI-2K)/ > - Holger Schwärzel / KODAK - "/Emulsionsdesign for the digital > Workflow"/ > - Henning Rädlein / ARRI - "/Film-Degraining: a new Post-productions- > Tool "(Working-Title) > /and many more > > Parallel to this is also an exhibition of Equipment by > Manufacturers and Rental Houses. Participants to the exhibition > include Arri Cine Technik, Dedo Weigert Film, Egripment, Kodak, > K5600 Lighting, Licht Technik, Ludwig Kameraverleih, Panther, Studio > Hamburg, Vantage and many more. All in all over 30 companies will be > present. > > This is open to non-members and entrance is free. > The exhibition starts at 10:00 > The symposium starts at 11:00. > > Anyone attending the Symposium and or exhibition is then of course > rewarded by joining the BVK reception at 19:00 on the Studio Hamburg > premises as well. > > Hope to see you there. > > If you need any more information please do not hesitate to contact me. > > Kind Regards > > Emmanuel, Munich > > 1st Asst Cameraperson - 1st Asst Kameramann - 1er Asst Opérateur > 16-35-HD > bvk-SSFV European based > Mobil +491608036889 > emmanuel at suys.de > Cinematography Mailing List Moderator - CML -- Rob Lingelbach roblingelbach at gmail.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 21 18:04:08 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:04:08 +0200 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux In-Reply-To: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C0A9DDF@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> References: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C0A9DDF@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Message-ID: <575B0045-35A1-4248-9E62-3448677D34FD@colorist.org> On Jan 21, 2009, at 7:34 PM, Alan Rosenfeld wrote: > I use both Facebook and LinkedIn for business and keeping in touch. > I have somehow managed to link to over 500 people on LinkedIn, most > from my 35 > years in this industry. Amazed at some of the folks I've found on > there. so I'm the only one getting redirected by Facebook "applications" to erotic sites, and tons of spam in the Film and TV Professionals group.. must be my browsing habits hah! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 21 21:03:09 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:03:09 +0200 Subject: [Tig] numerous new classifieds Message-ID: <142417EE-3BB2-42AE-817F-501E95A9BFC9@colorist.org> several new ads in classifieds. Please advise me if any of these ads are outdated, the only way I ever learn. thanks. http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Thu Jan 22 10:00:49 2009 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:00:49 -0000 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested References: <3058366B-3004-4FB2-BB24-7AFC3889667B@colorist.org> <69909AD9-5366-4753-AB80-BDDDABCF4106@colorist.org> Message-ID: I'm interested to hear who the youngest colorist is. Unfortunately, having worked in telecine for >5 years now I still wouldn't call myself a colorist, so won't change the wiki. I tend to think you should be grading on more controls than a stock FDL-60 possess in order to go under the colorist banner, though would Prefix on a Marconi V3 count? Which poses an interesting question - a what point would one gain enough experience to be called a colorist, and does the DaVinci's, Baselight's, Spirit's and the what have you's contribute to the title? Entirely incidentally, I'm 24. Peter White ________________________________ From: tig-bounces at colorist.org on behalf of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Mon 19-01-2009 19:51 To: tig tig Subject: Re: [Tig] some colorist stats requested 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== incidentally, I'm curious who is the Youngest Colorist Retired. Also, vis-a-vis the recent events on the Hudson River, the questions about "oldest" might well be rephrased "experienced" and be seen in a new light. And I was called upon to assist a bird (albeit a sparrow) out of the company holdings just a couple of months ago. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From screenwarmer at cox.net Thu Jan 22 13:50:46 2009 From: screenwarmer at cox.net (Rich Montez) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 8:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Tig] numerous new classifieds In-Reply-To: <142417EE-3BB2-42AE-817F-501E95A9BFC9@colorist.org> Message-ID: <20090122085046.WNWIB.158584.imail@fed1rmwml25> >>>"a what point would one gain enough experience to be called a colorist" More and more these days I see lot's of people call themselves Colorists. The "tricK" is to get others to call you one. Those who try to trick eventually get found out. Rich Montez From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 22 15:02:32 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:02:32 +0200 Subject: [Tig] looking for colorist short reels or videos Message-ID: <8F73FBC5-AFD3-4FDC-B900-FE60E4A66F9F@colorist.org> looking for short (around 4 minutes or less) pieces or spots to run on the main TIG wiki page in rotation with others. .flv preferred or I can transcode. contributors to TIG (paypal) given priority, but contribution not required. upload instructions available on request. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 22 15:08:41 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:08:41 +0200 Subject: [Tig] looking for gpg/pgp-enabled subscribers Message-ID: looking for subscribers who have gpg or pgp keys to use new fully encrypted (in and out) version of TIG mailinglist. please contact me for details. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG founder.admin rob at colorist.org From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Thu Jan 22 15:55:31 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 07:55:31 -0800 Subject: [Tig] numerous new classifieds Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029EFFC2@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Perhaps it's when paying customers return with more money and film and requests same person to make it look the way whoever signs check wants? When they start sending their friends with film and money who then send their friends, etc then one most likely has earned the tittle of colorist. Craig Nichols Dft ----- Original Message ----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org To: tig tig ; Rob Lingelbach Sent: Thu Jan 22 05:50:46 2009 Subject: Re: [Tig] numerous new classifieds 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== >>>"a what point would one gain enough experience to be called a colorist" More and more these days I see lot's of people call themselves Colorists. The "tricK" is to get others to call you one. Those who try to trick eventually get found out. Rich Montez _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From brandon at orbitdigital.com Thu Jan 22 17:32:56 2009 From: brandon at orbitdigital.com (Brandon Bussinger) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:32:56 -0500 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would only call myself a colorist insofar as someone pays me to call myself one and perform many of the duties regularly associated with one. Plus, Jim Mann called me one, so that sure doesn't hurt. My telecine experience is limited as I come from a non-linear background but I've been timing DIs and digital previews for about five years. Currently on Pablo. Brandon Bussinger Colorist/Editor Orbit Digital 1619 Broadway 7th floor NY, NY 10019 646.731.3100 brandon at orbitdigital.com From owen at ywwg.com Thu Jan 22 19:11:00 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: [Tig] numerous new classifieds In-Reply-To: <20090122085046.WNWIB.158584.imail@fed1rmwml25> References: <20090122085046.WNWIB.158584.imail@fed1rmwml25> Message-ID: <1232651460.8308.17.camel@ywwg> > > >>>"a what point would one gain enough > experience to be called a colorist" Q: What do you want your credit to read? A: Colorist That's worked out well for me Owen From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 22 19:38:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:38:34 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter Message-ID: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> I need a .mov to .flv converter. had been using Sorensen Squeeze which works great but can't afford the price at 600$. anyone know of an open source alternative? thanks and excuse the off-topic post, but it does involve getting colorist reels onto the tig site. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jack at surrealroad.com Thu Jan 22 21:27:27 2009 From: jack at surrealroad.com (Jack James) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:27:27 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> Message-ID: i've used videohub in the past but they have just shut up shop. i think they are now doing a free version though... -- Surreal Road Emmunicate Insatiably... www.surrealroad.com Please recycle this email to prevent excess bytes clogging up the internet From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com Thu Jan 22 21:57:13 2009 From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:57:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> Message-ID: Ffmpeg but I don't know about the quality (just haven't tried it). Plenty of people using to great their own YouTube sites. Erik Hansen Lurker Sent from my iPhone On Jan 22, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > I need a .mov to .flv converter. had been using Sorensen Squeeze > which works great but can't afford the price at 600$. anyone know > of an open source alternative? > > thanks and excuse the off-topic post, but it does involve getting > colorist reels onto the tig site. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From uwe at braehler.de Thu Jan 22 22:01:12 2009 From: uwe at braehler.de (Uwe Braehler) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:01:12 +0100 Subject: [Tig] social networking sites redux TEST In-Reply-To: <001101c97bdf$ff760d60$fe622820$@net> References: , <43799E19-43AB-4D1D-9135-A4B600D8A1C4@gmail.com>, <001101c97bdf$ff760d60$fe622820$@net> Message-ID: <4978FAB8.29629.A78AB28@uwe.braehler.de> Hi Jim, > Recently I made a Facebook page but > just to make it easier to watch what my kids are doing. That's really how it is Regards uwe ------------------------------------------ Uwe Braehler uwe at braehler.de ------------------------------------------ From adolfo at newhat.tv Thu Jan 22 22:23:02 2009 From: adolfo at newhat.tv (Adolfo Martinelli) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:23:02 -0800 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> Message-ID: Try ffmpeg. Free & open source for Linux & Windows http://ffmpeg.org ffmpegX for mac http://ffmpegx.com Adolfo Martinelli (Disclaimer: no association) On Jan 22, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > I need a .mov to .flv converter. had been using Sorensen Squeeze > which works great but can't afford the price at 600$. anyone know > of an open source alternative? > > thanks and excuse the off-topic post, but it does involve getting > colorist reels onto the tig site. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 22 22:25:37 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:25:37 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <804F563A-98FC-471A-A044-AF3E7FA4352C@colorist.org> On Jan 23, 2009, at 12:23 AM, Adolfo Martinelli wrote: > Try ffmpeg. Free & open source for Linux & Windows > http://ffmpeg.org > > ffmpegX for mac > http://ffmpegx.com but it doesn't do, in the trial version .mov to .flv -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From t.step at comcast.net Thu Jan 22 22:55:07 2009 From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:55:07 -0700 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <29D1171F-D685-45BF-94D7-CA44BC4148BB@comcast.net> I've used this converter to flip real media to mov with good results. Easy fast interface with batch functionality. Cost was nominal, but looks like they might offer a trial / free version http://www.avs4you.com/AVS-Video-Converter.aspx I do not work for or profit from this company, just like the product enough to recommend (at my own peril) to others Tom On Jan 22, 2009, at 12:38 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > I need a .mov to .flv converter. had been using Sorensen Squeeze > which works great but can't afford the price at 600$. anyone know > of an open source alternative? > > thanks and excuse the off-topic post, but it does involve getting > colorist reels onto the tig site. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 22 23:22:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:22:30 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <29D1171F-D685-45BF-94D7-CA44BC4148BB@comcast.net> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <29D1171F-D685-45BF-94D7-CA44BC4148BB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2009, at 12:55 AM, Tom Step wrote: > http://www.avs4you.com/AVS-Video-Converter.aspx hm, looks like it's windows-only. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Fri Jan 23 03:30:22 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 04:30:22 +0100 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> Message-ID: <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> SUPER by erightsoft? http://www.erightsoft.net/home.html Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipeline&workflows La Madeleine, France From adrian at autotv.co.uk Fri Jan 23 10:22:21 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:22:21 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> Message-ID: <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> Why use .flv now that Flash supports .mp4? -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- On 23 Jan 2009, at 03:30, Cedric Lejeune wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > SUPER by erightsoft? > http://www.erightsoft.net/home.html > > Cedric Lejeune > www.workflowers.net > pipeline&workflows > La Madeleine, France > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From simonastbury at hotmail.com Fri Jan 23 10:31:50 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:31:50 +0000 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think as long as someone else regards you as being skilled enough to be a colourist, and they employ you as one ergo... I was a telecine operator for a few years then someone said colourists earn more, so I thought I would become a colourist : ) Simon Astbury Senior Colourist Clear Cut Pictures _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 23 10:32:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:32:50 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <2DABC86C-BCCC-478F-8CA5-A31390FAEA88@colorist.org> On Jan 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote: > Why use .flv now that Flash supports .mp4? well in my case I'd have to re-transcode a ton of files that are already in .flv and being served... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 23 10:38:05 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:38:05 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote: > Why use .flv now that Flash supports .mp4? I'm unsuccessful in getting ffmpegX (mac intel) to find, via its widget, mpeg2enc, which is a dependency, though I've grabbed mpeg2enc (binary) more than once. Does anyone have source code for mpeg2enc ? unable to find on net. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 23 10:48:38 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:48:38 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <2DABC86C-BCCC-478F-8CA5-A31390FAEA88@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <2DABC86C-BCCC-478F-8CA5-A31390FAEA88@colorist.org> Message-ID: <185050FF-8B07-4B93-BAFB-373C4B9E6DEA@colorist.org> On Jan 23, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: >> Why use .flv now that Flash supports .mp4? > > well in my case I'd have to re-transcode a ton of files that > are already in .flv and being served... i realized later this didn't answer the question, and thanks for letting me know it supports mp4. found mjpegtools via DarwinPorts and hopefully that will solve the mpeg2enc dependency for ffmpegX. But doesn't Quicktime Pro have codec for going from .mov to .flv and .mp4? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Fri Jan 23 12:05:42 2009 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:05:42 -0000 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested References: Message-ID: I can see points of view, but surely colorist also includes tape-based grading, and tape graders don't necessarily have any film handling background or knowledge. Wouldn't you want to keep 'Telecine' in there somewhere? It's also a difference of culture. 'Colorist' isn't so prolific or as abundant in the UK (especially given the spelling difference). >From a different angle, my job title does not specificially refer to telecine or grading/colour. Apologies for going waaaay off topic. Pete ________________________________ From: tig-bounces at colorist.org on behalf of simon astbury Sent: Fri 23-01-2009 10:31 To: brandon at orbitdigital.com; tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] some colorist stats requested 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== I think as long as someone else regards you as being skilled enough to be a colourist, and they employ you as one ergo... I was a telecine operator for a few years then someone said colourists earn more, so I thought I would become a colourist : ) Simon Astbury Senior Colourist Clear Cut Pictures _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From adrian at autotv.co.uk Fri Jan 23 13:07:58 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:07:58 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <185050FF-8B07-4B93-BAFB-373C4B9E6DEA@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <2DABC86C-BCCC-478F-8CA5-A31390FAEA88@colorist.org> <185050FF-8B07-4B93-BAFB-373C4B9E6DEA@colorist.org> Message-ID: <4C6F8B24-6572-47B5-A023-BA0A30D8F763@autotv.co.uk> Nope, QuickTime supports neither the Sorensen Spark CODEC of .flv old nor the VP6 CODEC of .flv newer. QuickTime does, of course, support direct export to h.264/AAC MPEG4 which is supported by current version of Flash, and a massive improvement over the .flv CODECs of old. You can decode .flvs using Spark and VP6 using VLC. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 23 14:32:47 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:32:47 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <4C6F8B24-6572-47B5-A023-BA0A30D8F763@autotv.co.uk> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <2DABC86C-BCCC-478F-8CA5-A31390FAEA88@colorist.org> <185050FF-8B07-4B93-BAFB-373C4B9E6DEA@colorist.org> <4C6F8B24-6572-47B5-A023-BA0A30D8F763@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote: > Nope, QuickTime supports neither the Sorensen Spark CODEC of .flv > old nor the VP6 CODEC of .flv newer. QuickTime does, of course, > support direct export to h.264/AAC MPEG4 which is supported by > current version of Flash, and a massive improvement over the .flv > CODECs of old. wow, you're not kidding. I used HandBrake with H.264, to make an m4v file, deinterlace on, and it's quite good. see, in the rotation on the main TIG wiki page, Rob Bessette's Titleist spot. reload the page until it appears (there are 2 other clips in random rotation) I'm just not sure it's streaming, as i'm not on a net connection right now that allows me to check. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From underscan at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 15:01:04 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:01:04 +0100 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <2DABC86C-BCCC-478F-8CA5-A31390FAEA88@colorist.org> <185050FF-8B07-4B93-BAFB-373C4B9E6DEA@colorist.org> <4C6F8B24-6572-47B5-A023-BA0A30D8F763@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: it´s not streaming. first fully loads until it´s playable. cheerz mark Am 23.01.2009 um 15:32 schrieb Rob Lingelbach: > see, in the rotation on the main TIG wiki page, Rob Bessette's > Titleist spot. reload the page until it appears (there > are 2 other clips in random rotation) I'm just not sure it's > streaming, as i'm not on a net connection right now that > allows me to check. > > Rob -- underscan films | berlin From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Jan 23 16:21:51 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:21:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > I'm unsuccessful in getting ffmpegX (mac intel) to find, via > its widget, mpeg2enc, which is a dependency, though I've > grabbed mpeg2enc (binary) more than once. Does anyone > have source code for mpeg2enc ? unable to find on net. Presumably there could be more than one 'mpeg2enc', but did you remember to check the GraphicsMagick project to see if they have this included in their toolbox? Maybe this has been right under your nose the whole time. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 23 16:26:41 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:26:41 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> On Jan 23, 2009, at 6:21 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Presumably there could be more than one 'mpeg2enc', but did you > remember to check the GraphicsMagick project to see if they have > this included in their toolbox? Maybe this has been right under > your nose the whole time. my late father: "if it was a snake it woulda bit ya." as Adrian pointed out, since Flash supports mp4, and I can get to mp4 from mov easily with either QT Pro or HandBrake, problem solved and quality is much better. but always am open to suggestions, particularly when it involves working with source code, it's cool fun. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Jan 23 16:30:19 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:30:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > but always am open to suggestions, particularly when it involves > working with source code, it's cool fun. There is a 'mpeg2enc' included in a package called 'mpeg2vidcodec_v12.tar.gz'. We distribute it as one of the GraphicsMagick "delegates". I don't know if there is a more recently maintained version of this code, or something entirely different which goes by the same name. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rogerito at terra.com.br Sat Jan 24 00:00:17 2009 From: rogerito at terra.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rog=E9rio_Moraes?=) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:00:17 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Nitrate film on telecine Message-ID: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> What should I consider when putting nitrate based film on telecine, besides the "well know" safety handling of nitrate ( fire, storage, temperature, material conditions, etc )? Is it possible for the material itself to damage or " contaminate" the PTR´s, telecine (we´re talking about a Cintel DSX doing an HD scan of old and brittle nitrate film)? Should I be concerned of risk of igniting the material in flames within the telecine? Does the CRT generates enough heat for that? If the film breaks on the telecine, should I be concerned? Thanks for any advice. From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Sat Jan 24 08:25:24 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:25:24 -0800 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Sorry for off topic, but perhaps not that far off if we are watching transfers at home. Does anyone have any opinions or preferences of AT&T Uverse vs Time Warner Cable? TWC has had quite reliable and fast internet service, and adequate but getting worse picture quality. AT&T is making the rounds door to door and with lots of promotional mailing. Allegedly, they put it fiber, but if it is what I saw them install, it is blocks away. Has anyone had good/bad experiences, or horror stories with either? I've heard good things about Verizon FiOs but it is not in my neighborhood. I'd go satellite, but then I don't get broadband speeds that TWC Road Runner gives me (often 6.0Mbps ) Kind Regards, Craig Craig Nichols Technical Support Engineer DFT - Digital Film Technology 2255 N. Ontario St. Suite 100 Burbank, CA 91504 Craig.Nichols at DFT-Film.com 800-338-6046 (24 hr) 818-729-7720 Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com www.dft-film.com Please note address, email, and phone changes. From cinema at supermegaactionplus.com Sat Jan 24 14:20:05 2009 From: cinema at supermegaactionplus.com (Jamie Fraser) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:20:05 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> Message-ID: Might be worth taking a look at the CRAMCompressor pack for Apple's Compressor. Not open source, but cheap! http://www.compressorpack.com/presets.php I haven't tried it yet, but heard good things. No affiliation. Jamie Jamie Fraser VFX/Animation/Post Super Mega Action Plus Limited, London and Bath, UK. cinema at supermegaactionplus.com Super Mega Action Plus Limited Place of Registration: England & Wales. Company Reg No: 6229259. Registered Office: 138 Englishcombe Lane, Bath BA2 2EJ. From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 24 17:00:35 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:00:35 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Nitrate film on telecine In-Reply-To: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> References: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> Message-ID: <555C8C04-2D46-4581-9C57-E6FD2DE7D503@colorist.org> Hi Rogerio, might be worth looking through the TIG archives in a search for "nitrate." been some discussion of this in the past. I transferred and graded some nitrate a few years ago while at UCLA, and the images were the most stunning b+w I'd ever seen come from film. I worked on a MkIII Turbo and I just used a separate set of PTRs which didn't seem to be ruined by the experience. There are things to watch out for with nitrate but it doesn't explode: it just burns until it burns up, at a very high temperature, because it creates its own oxygen. You can't extinguish the fire with anything once it starts, it burns under water. CRT will not generate enough heat in my opinion. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at cinelab.com Sun Jan 25 00:26:30 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:26:30 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Nitrate film on telecine In-Reply-To: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> References: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> Message-ID: <458A8C69-99B7-4EAE-9250-3C7E958F520B@cinelab.com> I find that if nitrate is not gassing bad or jellying it handles much like any other older film. I would not machine clean it but a velvet cloth works fine by hand. The crt machine will not ignite the film splice as usual. Rob Robert Houllahan Film www.Cinelab.com Ipodfone sent From david.baud at comcast.net Sun Jan 25 18:41:08 2009 From: david.baud at comcast.net (David Baud) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:41:08 -0700 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> Message-ID: <9D956B06-4B23-4CC2-A301-DA29951E5D31@comcast.net> Also if you are interested to use H.264 codec with Flash, and if you are on Mac, and you are on a budget, you can: 1. encode your movie to Quicktime H.264 movie using Apple Compressor 2. then you just modify your movie file extension from .mov to .flv 3. this file will be Flash compatible and can be read by any Flash player version 9 Update 3 and above. I hope this help, David Baud Editor & VFX KOSMOS PRODUCTIONS Denver - Paris baudavid at kosmos-productions.com On Jan 23, 2009, at 9:26 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > On Jan 23, 2009, at 6:21 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > >> Presumably there could be more than one 'mpeg2enc', but did you >> remember to check the GraphicsMagick project to see if they have >> this included in their toolbox? Maybe this has been right under >> your nose the whole time. > > my late father: "if it was a snake it woulda bit ya." > > as Adrian pointed out, since Flash supports mp4, and I can get to > mp4 from mov > easily with either QT Pro or HandBrake, problem solved and quality > is much better. > > but always am open to suggestions, particularly when it involves > working with source > code, it's cool fun. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > From avgeeks at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 18:59:34 2009 From: avgeeks at gmail.com (Skip Elsheimer) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:59:34 -0500 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <9D956B06-4B23-4CC2-A301-DA29951E5D31@comcast.net> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> <9D956B06-4B23-4CC2-A301-DA29951E5D31@comcast.net> Message-ID: I would be very interest to know if this method actually works. Skip www.avgeeks.com From simon.blackledge at spacedigital.co.uk Sun Jan 25 18:54:55 2009 From: simon.blackledge at spacedigital.co.uk (Simon Blackledge) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:54:55 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel. Message-ID: <15524544-EAE4-42BB-9547-E396ABA42BEF@spacedigital.co.uk> Anyone using the new Tangent Wave? Any thoughts? Simon Blackledge VFX Supervisor/ Head of Post www.spacedigital.co.uk www.matteblackfilms.com From jfmann at optimum.net Sun Jan 25 20:02:33 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:02:33 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Nitrate film on telecine In-Reply-To: <458A8C69-99B7-4EAE-9250-3C7E958F520B@cinelab.com> References: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> <458A8C69-99B7-4EAE-9250-3C7E958F520B@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <000b01c97f27$dc9bf430$95d3dc90$@net> Hi Rogerio; I agree with Rob and Robert, but I add one note. Watch for shrinkage and that sprocketed tach wheel is meeting up with the film perfs. Keep a close eye on the transport if the film is fluted and/or buckled. Good Luck and enjoy, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From adrian at autotv.co.uk Mon Jan 26 11:47:46 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:47:46 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: mov to flv converter In-Reply-To: <9D956B06-4B23-4CC2-A301-DA29951E5D31@comcast.net> References: <823DF52F-D50A-4D72-8B03-4874FB3431DB@colorist.org> <497939CE.6070904@free.fr> <577F0BCF-C36C-45FD-867A-399A8748D6BE@autotv.co.uk> <4A302410-0791-43B1-A979-D3283702E12E@colorist.org> <9D956B06-4B23-4CC2-A301-DA29951E5D31@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On 25 Jan 2009, at 18:41, David Baud wrote: >> >> Also if you are interested to use H.264 codec with Flash, and if >> you are on Mac, and you are on a budget, you can: >> >> 1. encode your movie to Quicktime H.264 movie using Apple Compressor >> 2. then you just modify your movie file extension from .mov to .flv >> 3. this file will be Flash compatible and can be read by any Flash >> player version 9 Update 3 and above. >> >> I hope this help, >> Exporting the same movie as an MPEG4 in QuickTime doesn't cost any time or money either (it doesn't need to re-encode) so, do the world a favour, don't use .flv where you can use .mp4. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- > From rob at colorist.org Mon Jan 26 13:52:04 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:52:04 +0200 Subject: [Tig] new ads on classifieds Message-ID: <34D92BA7-551C-472E-BE91-130EC92C1428@colorist.org> some new ads on the classifieds, including this one at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds Senior colorist (DaVinci) needed. Freelance agency UtopiaPeople (www.utopiapeople.com) looking for senior colorist. Our client wants to hire a skilled client friendly commercial colorist. Shortcontract, client based in Warsawa, working with DaVinci. For more information please goto: http://www.utopiapeople.se/news/COLORIST_DAVINCI.pdf Deadline for applications: 30/1. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From simonastbury at hotmail.com Mon Jan 26 15:43:33 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:43:33 +0000 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter White wrote:> I can see points of view, but surely colorist also includes tape-based grading, and tape graders don't necessarily have any film handling background or knowledge. Wouldn't you want to keep 'Telecine' in there somewhere? I think it depends. I am solely tape and data based now, although along with many others I used to work on film. Simon _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail, Messenger, Photos and more - all with the new Windows Live. Get started! http://www.download.live.com/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Mon Jan 26 17:40:30 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:40:30 -0700 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CC142A3-A02A-4BC8-97B8-60EFD776339A@prestodigital.ca> When I'm attending functions outside the industry and it gets around to occupations (mostly in the Academic world), if I'm introduced as a colorist, people assume I work in a Hair salon. And if we get to the part about film and/or video, then they really don't have a clue that any of this is going on. Oh, is it like Photoshop? What I want to know is, when do you leave the designation, or what does it become, if you branch into a wider, integrated VFX role, which is what is happening to me....? Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Jan 26 18:43:48 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:43:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown? Message-ID: It seems that most industries have been hurt by the world recession, and employers have been laying off even some of their most respected employees. I am curious to know if the postproduction industry has largely been immune to this, or if colorists are now feeling the bite of the recession as well. What is the situation out there? Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From mlbnyc at verizon.net Mon Jan 26 18:40:35 2009 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:40:35 -0500 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: <2CC142A3-A02A-4BC8-97B8-60EFD776339A@prestodigital.ca> References: <2CC142A3-A02A-4BC8-97B8-60EFD776339A@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <9056DD19-82E1-434C-8BC6-268C4CAE5F78@verizon.net> I've taken to telling civilians that "I'm in the sausage business", as in: "you really don't want to know how this stuff gets made".... Hey, what do you want, it's Monday.... Mike On Jan 26, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > ==== > > > When I'm attending functions outside the industry and it gets around > to occupations (mostly in the Academic world), if I'm introduced as > a colorist, people assume I work in a Hair salon. And if we get to > the part about film and/or video, then they really don't have a clue > that any of this is going on. Oh, is it like Photoshop? > What I want to know is, when do you leave the designation, or what > does it become, if you branch into a wider, integrated VFX role, > which is what is happening to me....? > > > Joe Owens > Presto!Digital Colourgrade > 302-9664 106 Avenue > Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 > +1 780 421-9980 > jpo at prestodigital.ca > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From carl at stopp.se Mon Jan 26 21:55:23 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:55:23 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown Message-ID: Well in sweden we just lost one (although newly started) filmlab. And also one big posthouse went bust, although they are rebuilding it with almost the same staff I think. But I think we are seeing some changes in pricing in the neer future. One company is selling a BaseLight suite for as little as €190/hrs And I heard of a local TV-series, not high budget but absolutly good budget, that are buying grading for about €400/episode (60min) But they are working on a Avid of some sort. I think we'll see a lot more of these low-end places pop up and taking some market shares. /carl ________________________________________ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:43:48 -0600 (CST) From: Bob Friesenhahn Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown? To: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed It seems that most industries have been hurt by the world recession, and employers have been laying off even some of their most respected employees. I am curious to know if the postproduction industry has largely been immune to this, or if colorists are now feeling the bite of the recession as well. What is the situation out there? Bob From steve at veralith.com Mon Jan 26 21:45:25 2009 From: steve at veralith.com (Steve Hullfish) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:45:25 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely hurting. I think there were a number of big shops in LA that closed down at the end of last year. I know of a couple facility owners who told me in confidence that if business didn't pick up soon, they'd be laying people off. Lots of equipment auctions... Lots of consolidation of post ownership groups. Some of the colorists I know here in town (Chicago) say that they're spending less and less time at the console. Steve Hullfish contributor: www.provideocoalition.com author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction" co-author: "Color Correction for Video: revised edition" and "Avid Xpress Pro Editing Workshop" presenter: Class On Demand's "Complete Training for Avid Media Composer." On Jan 26, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > > It seems that most industries have been hurt by the world > recession, and employers have been laying off even some of their > most respected employees. I am curious to know if the > postproduction industry has largely been immune to this, or if > colorists are now feeling the bite of the recession as well. What > is the situation out there? From ted at tedlangdell.com Mon Jan 26 22:43:46 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:43:46 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown-cheap grading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2009, at 1:55 PM, Carl Skaff wrote: > One company is selling a BaseLight suite for as little as €190/hr Which at today's Euro to Dollar rate of $1.2948 per Euro is about $246.012/hr > €400/episode (60min) $517.92 for the show. Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Jan 27 02:15:58 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:15:58 -0800 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: I'm moderately happy with TWC after a year or so, although the price has gone up about 15% in that time. They did add a large number (over 20, I think) of HD channels, though. And the quality has dropped somewhat (more compression), although it's not always clear that it's TWC's fault - it's just as likely that some stuff is being stepped on before they get it. The only bad thing I've heard about AT&T's offering is that it's only capable of delivering two HD streams at a time, so if you have a dual tuner HD TiVo, for example (I have two), you've just eaten all the HD bandwidth the system delivers, and no one else can watch HD at your location. This may not affect everyone, of course, but I couldn't live with that. Everyone I know (and some of them highly critical people) with FiOS, OTOH, is very satisfied. If it was available here, I'd get it in a heartbeat. I'm on 1.5 Mb DSL, and have been for about 9 years. I can count all the outages in that time on the fingers of one hand, and they never complain about bandwidth use. I'd like to try TWC's 6.0Mb service, but it's quite expensive (I'm paying $15/mo for 1.5 Mb), and I will not tolerate RoadRunner's "secret" bandwidth caps where you get a warning letter but they refuse to tell you what the limit is that you have supposedly exceeded - I just won't reward that sort of behavior with my money unless there's absolutely no other choice. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com >Sorry for off topic, but perhaps not that far off if we are watching >transfers at home. Does anyone have any opinions or preferences of AT&T >Uverse vs Time Warner Cable? TWC has had quite reliable and fast >internet service, and adequate but getting worse picture quality. AT&T >is making the rounds door to door and with lots of promotional mailing. >Allegedly, they put it fiber, but if it is what I saw them install, it >is blocks away. Has anyone had good/bad experiences, or horror stories >with either? I've heard good things about Verizon FiOs but it is not in >my neighborhood. I'd go satellite, but then I don't get broadband speeds >that TWC Road Runner gives me (often 6.0Mbps ) From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Jan 27 02:26:13 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:26:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It seems that most industries have been hurt by the world recession, >and employers have been laying off even some of their most respected >employees. It seems to me that while some companies are in real trouble, there are those who are doing fine, but using the current situation as political cover to dump a large number of employees without repercussions or explanations. Microsoft announcing that they are laying off 5000 people comes to mind. They are doing well and have hundreds of billions of dollars of cash on hand. As long as cutting employees makes a company's stock go up, and as long as business is only about increasing shareholder value in the short term and nothing else, the bloodbath will continue. It's just a matter of time before it affects every aspect of the industry. Why, just this Sunday, I saw Michael Eisner (looking, incidentally, pretty much like he was homeless) on a cheap Jet Blue flight from JFK to Burbank. I was sitting in a more expensive seat than he was. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From ken at flight4.org Tue Jan 27 01:02:17 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:02:17 -0200 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: <9056DD19-82E1-434C-8BC6-268C4CAE5F78@verizon.net> References: <2CC142A3-A02A-4BC8-97B8-60EFD776339A@prestodigital.ca> <9056DD19-82E1-434C-8BC6-268C4CAE5F78@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00ec01c9801a$e7bcb9a0$6600a8c0@flight4> OK... who dreamed up the title 'colourist' / 'colorist' anyway? I thought I used to be happy being a telecine operator... until I had to explain that one at parties.... ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 (Please don't call in the middle of the night) From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 27 07:35:57 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:35:57 +0200 Subject: [Tig] some colorist stats requested In-Reply-To: <00ec01c9801a$e7bcb9a0$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <2CC142A3-A02A-4BC8-97B8-60EFD776339A@prestodigital.ca> <9056DD19-82E1-434C-8BC6-268C4CAE5F78@verizon.net> <00ec01c9801a$e7bcb9a0$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2009, at 3:02 AM, Ken Robinson wrote: > I thought I used to be happy being a telecine operator... until I > had to > explain that one at parties.... it wasn't telecine operatour? at one point Telecine Artist was in vogue. and you had to have one name, like Fabio, and ... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From simonastbury at hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 12:20:36 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:20:36 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Economic slowdown? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My small corner of the UK is being hit now. The BBC are taking more and more of their post in house. A number of places in Soho went bust last year with, I think, at least 3 more to follow this year. Channel 4 and ITV both now saying they may become insolvent. The general trend for budgets is.... down. However the weak pound may be good for US UK co-productions being finished here. I have been working on more and more in the past few years. The sad fact is that the BBC is having to save 5% per year for the next 4 years (I think ??) and when you have a player that big cutting costs it will affect the whole industry, coupled with commercial TV trying to save money because ad revenue has fallen off a cliff. On the upside I have more time to post on the tig : ) From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Tue Jan 27 15:58:30 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:58:30 -0800 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06865@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> I've never encountered BW caps on TWC Road Runner on 6.0Mbs service and I upload and download a fairly substantial amount of data when sending dpx and other large files around on a regular basis. I have heard TWC was experimenting with imposing caps in various service areas. Fortunately they have not done that here, and if they do that will give me considerable incentive to change providers. The AT&T limitation of only 2 HD streams would definitely be a deal killer for my wife and kids. Does FIOS actually bring fiber all the way into the house, or is it also copper? Unfortunately, it's not in my neighborhood. If it was, it would be my first choice from what I have heard from people about 3 miles away who have it and love it. Craig Nichols Technical Support Engineer- DFA Digital Film Technology www.dft-film.com From myron at posthouse.com Tue Jan 27 15:59:23 2009 From: myron at posthouse.com (Myron@posthouse.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:59:23 -0500 Subject: [Tig] With what system is "House" graded ? "CSI:Miami"? Message-ID: Who does the grading of "House"? With what system? What camera system is employed? What is the workflow? Myron Lenenski CinePost 2160 Kingston Ct. Ste.N Marietta, GA 30067 678-238-0800 www.posthouse.com 404-784-1771 (cell) From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 27 16:14:43 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:14:43 +0200 Subject: [Tig] SAG news... from SHOOT! Message-ID: <5DF61777-D152-451D-B8F6-186A905D0DDF@colorist.org> http://tinyurl.com/d26cqt looks like SAG might be averting a strike vote. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Jan 27 16:49:29 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:49:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: The problem with these new high-bandwidth services is that they are all monopoly services. They want (insist!) to provide telephone, internet, and video. It is a one size fits all situation, and there is only competition if there are multiple competing services on the same poles. Even then, once you have selected a provider you are generally locked in, and they will modify the service entrance to your home, making it difficult to try the other provider. Bundled services can be a real problem since there can be reasons to want to use a different provider for one or more of the services, or even good reasons to want to keep using analog copper wires to the home. There is really no good reason for services to be offered in such a monopolistic manner but the FCC has done nothing about it. As we have seen demonstrated by the internet, you can obtain your basic data service, and other services may be layered on top. There is no reason that the layered services (e.g. voice & video) need to be offered by the basic data service provider. This is an area where FCC regulations can help, but it seems that the FCC is in these monopoly player's pockets, and the FCC is elated that broadband service is offered at all. What is needed is a standard for the digital service entrance to your home. With appropriate standards, the service provider hooks up on the data service side of the NID (using a standard connector), and the customer plugs in their preferred equipment on the customer side (also using a standard connector). If the service provider is changed, the customer equipment should continue to work. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 27 17:39:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:39:14 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: On Jan 27, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > The problem with these new high-bandwidth services is that they are > all monopoly services. They want (insist!) to provide telephone, > internet, and video. I sure hope BPL (Broadband over Power Lines) died, as it was hell for us radio amateurs, flooding the HF spectrum with horrible noise. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Jan 27 18:09:09 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:09:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06865@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06865@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Nichols Craig wrote: > > The AT&T limitation of only 2 HD streams would definitely be a deal > killer for my wife and kids. The reason for this limitation is that the HD streams are over IP. It seems that "DVR" functionality is offered via a remote server. There can be some good things about remote "DVR" such as not running out of "tuners". > Does FIOS actually bring fiber all the way into the house, or is it also > copper? Unfortunately, it's not in my neighborhood. If it was, it would > be my first choice from what I have heard from people about 3 miles away > who have it and love it. It seems to be fiber to the house, which is why there is more bandwidth than AT&T's ADSL2-based approach. The existing telephone interface box is replaced with a new digital one. The old copper wires are removed and copper-based services (e.g. ADSL) are canceled without approval from the customer. It is apparently assumed that the home is already plumbed for coax so video for the home is transcoded to a coax based signal. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIOS Both AT&T and Verizon both seem to be "evil empire" type companies, but AT&T has more demonstrated evidence of evil towards customers (lack of commitment to provided services) and FiOS seems to be a better technical solution from the customer's perspective. Without FCC rulings, both AT&T and Verizon are likely to block services based on their own reasoning (e.g. internet video competes with their own video). If they don't like a protocol they will block it and the customer then has few options. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Tue Jan 27 18:18:44 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:18:44 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Richard Terpilowski Message-ID: Has anyone any news of Richard Terpilowski, who was in our industry as a very well-regarded engineer some years back? After his recovery from an accident, there might be some of us who would like to hear of him. the last we heard was in 2003, when Mike Orton posted the message to the TIG at: http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2003-October/004244.html -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From terry at finishedit.com Tue Jan 27 18:50:05 2009 From: terry at finishedit.com (Terry Lockhart) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:50:05 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Fiber into the home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E990F93-A0C3-4FC9-BB6C-877C2F7F6E47@finishedit.com> Hey Craig- Unless they put the Demux on the outside wall of the house, it comes in. Verizon FiOS comes right into my basement on real fiber. So far very good service, I switched from Comcast one year ago. I think the video looks marginally better than Comcast on Coax, and the up/down internet performance is significantly improved as well. My 16 year old says much less lag playing online games. Very important. the usual ..Not affiliated with Verizon or Comcast, just a marginally satisfied user.. Cheers -- Terry Lockhart Chief Engineer/IT manager Finish Editorial 162 Columbus Ave. Boston, Ma 02116-5222 direct/vm 617 850 6133 main 617 292 0082 or 850 6100 fax 617 292 0083 cel 617 775 3195 I'm beginning to understand myself. But it would have been great to be able to understand myself when I was 20 rather than when I was 82." --Dave Brubeck, American jazz pianist From d_bernstein2000 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 27 22:47:45 2009 From: d_bernstein2000 at yahoo.com (David Bernstein) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:47:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] FW: [AMIA-Member-L] Help to restore the Lunar Orbiter images from 1966 Message-ID: <673248.23619.qm@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This was posted recently on the AMIA (Image Archivists) list, and may be of interest to some here. Perhaps someone can help with the AMPEX FR-950 requests. -DB Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:01 AM Subject:[AMIA-Member-L] Help to restore the Lunar Orbiter images from 1966 Hello colleagues, This is in regard to the Lunar Orbiter image recovery effort that you can learn about here. http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-111408a.html In the shadow of the big blimp hangar at Moffet Field in Mountain View, California there is an abandoned McDonald's that now houses hundreds of 2-inch video tapes, lots of parts and one working AMPEX FR-950. (see pix in above link) Ken Zin, one of the technicians on the project(pictured below), says they need the manuals for the AMPEX FR-950 Recorder/Reproducer. I've found that there might be a copy at Stanford University which has the corporate archives of AMPEX and I'm directing him to that source but in case if that doesn't pan out they are in the hunt for the very necessary manual. They also need parts of course. Military, research and other facilities might have something in a back room somewhere. Info would be much appreciated. It's been a shoestring operation, kept alive by space geek love and now an opportunity to use the high resolution pictures to compare with a new satellite going to the moon in a couple of months. Incidently, the 70mm film that they shot with developed and scanned on board the Lunar Orbiter had something like 500 lines per inch resolution. You can visit the older scans here. http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/lunarorbiter/ The tapes themselves are 2-inch housed in cans that have foam sides. Some of them may need cleaning. You can contact Kenneth Zin at kenzin at sbcglobal.net BTW Ken is an old hand at fixing 1/2 -inch Sony reel to reel recorders/players. I visited the facility while picking up an AV-3650 that he was fixing for a client of mine. Thanks! Marcus Pun Editor/Preditor From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Jan 28 00:34:32 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:34:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06865@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Bob Kertesz wrote: >>> The AT&T limitation of only 2 HD streams would definitely be a deal >>> killer for my wife and kids. > > VOD (video on demand) is fine if you're just looking around for SOMETHING to > watch, and you're satisfied with whatever the provider has decided to offer. > And you do most of your watching in SD. In case it was not clear, AT&T's HD service is offered over IP. The channels get switched at their office (or in an intermediate switch) rather than in your set top box. At least that is my understanding as to how things work. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Jan 28 00:15:48 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:15:48 -0500 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06865@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: >> The AT&T limitation of only 2 HD streams would definitely be a deal >> killer for my wife and kids. > >The reason for this limitation is that the HD streams are over IP. It >seems that "DVR" functionality is offered via a remote server. There >can be some good things about remote "DVR" such as not running out of >"tuners". Well, yes, but... VOD (video on demand) is fine if you're just looking around for SOMETHING to watch, and you're satisfied with whatever the provider has decided to offer. And you do most of your watching in SD. But if you're interested in current programming in HD, VOD is (for now) close to useless. Additionally, all my TiVos are networked, and I can watch any program from any TiVo on any other TiVo. Sort of my own VOD, if you will. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From edgarlebron at hotmail.com Wed Jan 28 02:14:50 2009 From: edgarlebron at hotmail.com (Edgardo Lebron diaz) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 02:14:50 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Nitrate film on telecine In-Reply-To: <458A8C69-99B7-4EAE-9250-3C7E958F520B@cinelab.com> References: <000001c97db6$be436ee0$3aca4ca0$@com.br> <458A8C69-99B7-4EAE-9250-3C7E958F520B@cinelab.com> Message-ID: mera voy a pintarlo el sa bado y tirarle foto con oxido solo en las soldaduras no se ve bien y despues cuando le ponga los paneles le tiro otra as que me llamas el sabado o traes un pen drive y te las doy si no te las envio por email edgardo > From: rob at cinelab.com> To: rogerito at terra.com.br; tig at tig.colorist.org> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:26:30 -0500> Subject: Re: [Tig] Nitrate film on telecine> > 2065 subscribers as of January 2009> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.> ====> > > I find that if nitrate is not gassing bad or jellying it handles much > like any other older film. I would not machine clean it but a velvet > cloth works fine by hand. The crt machine will not ignite the film > splice as usual.> > Rob> > Robert Houllahan Film> www.Cinelab.com> Ipodfone sent> > > > > _______________________________________________> http://reels.colorist.org> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 _________________________________________________________________ More than messages–check out the rest of the Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From ken at flight4.org Wed Jan 28 01:55:55 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:55:55 -0200 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Message-ID: <006901c980eb$8fee0360$6600a8c0@flight4> Are there really radio amateurs still? I mean these new fangled cell fone things work quite well... well ok you cant send an SMS from Argentina to England... but hey. ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach I sure hope BPL (Broadband over Power Lines) died, as it was hell for us radio amateurs, flooding the HF spectrum with horrible noise. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 28 12:30:25 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:30:25 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT - TWC vs ATT UVerse In-Reply-To: <006901c980eb$8fee0360$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> <006901c980eb$8fee0360$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <987394DF-6E24-456E-909A-B99396E1998A@colorist.org> On Jan 28, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Ken Robinson wrote: > Are there really radio amateurs still? > > I mean these new fangled cell fone things work quite well... well ok > you > cant send an SMS from Argentina to England... but hey. all it takes is a tsunami, earthquake, nuclear explosion, and it's the radio amateurs who still have the ionosphere and get word in and out. it is a dwindling profession however.. yet quite enjoyable. There are also satellites to play with, reachable with a 100$ handheld. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Jan 28 18:06:27 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:06:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Postponed Analog Cutoff Message-ID: It appears that the analog cutoff date will be postponed here in the US. The vote is on party lines (as usual). While the postponement might help a few more percent of viewers to purchase DTV hardware before the cutoff, it seems that delaying the cutoff is going to cost broadcast stations a lot of money, which could result in additional loss of employment at the broadcasters. Broadcasters had been planning to cut off the analog signal by the previously set date. Now they would need to absorb the cost of paying for two transmissions. Are broadcasters required to provide an analog signal up to the cutoff date, or are they allowed to turn off the signal sooner? Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 28 18:40:32 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:40:32 +0200 Subject: [Tig] life after marketing grading systems Message-ID: <65F77F90-204B-4260-8276-0D6D2F0C1BC7@colorist.org> in our occasional continuing series on "life after..." we have this followup from Joe Moore: Joe Moore, former marketing & communications manager for da Vinci Systems, retired 3 years ago to pursue a career as a novelist. He teamed up with bestselling author Lynn Sholes to co-write 4 novels in the award-winning Cotten Stone thriller series. His books have landed on numerous international bestseller lists and have been translated into 23 languages including Russian, Greek and Chinese. Joe is working on his fifth novel and writes full time from his home in South Florida. Visit his site at http://www.cottenstone.com for more info. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Jan 28 20:11:29 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:11:29 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Calendar added to TIG wiki (user editable) Message-ID: <50551F66-D1E2-4C02-92FA-3D9102B41C25@colorist.org> see the TIG wiki at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main and any wiki user can edit the calendar to add events. syntax is fairly simple, or complex if needed. help is available on the calendar page itself. This could be useful for companies or individuals to list seminars, demos, etc. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Jan 28 23:40:19 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:40:19 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Quantel cancels NAB exhibit Message-ID: <61BA391E-4285-40EF-9D3D-AD7736C4D959@tedlangdell.com> A press release Quantel put out on Jan. 11 is just now hitting trade pubs: http://quantel.com/page.php?u=a4e9496112a79b7b65016b41f599e578 Quantel not exhibiting at NAB 2009 Quantel has announced to its customers that it will not be exhibiting at NAB in 2009. Quantel CEO Ray Cross said: “It’s not a decision that we’ve come to without a great deal of thought. However in the current general economic climate we quite simply can’t justify the $1million+ investment that exhibiting at NAB would require. This year we’re being prudent; I’m sure our customers are too. “The roadshows we’ve been running around the world over the last year have showed us that many of our customers really appreciate the convenience and individual attention that such events can offer,” Cross continued. “These initiatives will therefore continue to be at the forefront of our customer-facing activities over the coming months, in combination with the regular visits that our R&D, support, sales, marketing and management teams make to our users. “We are busy working on new projects for major customers around the world at the moment and are progressing exciting new developments such as V4.1 and beyond, RED workflow, Stereo3D, Dino and FCP server integration to name just a few. Not going to NAB in this challenging year will allow R&D to focus fully on delivering for our customers. This year delivery, not marketing, comes first,” Cross concluded. Quantel's 60' x 70' booth SL720 in the front of Lower South Hall was across the asile from Thomson's 120 x 140 palace, and on the south side between Silicon Graphics and Chyron. As of this writing, the booth was still labelled for Quantel on floor diagrams, http://www.nabshow.com/2009/exhibitservices/pdfs/master/s1.pdf but a search for Quantel using the exhibitor search box reported "0" results. Meantime, Avid announced its return after a one year absence, and is listed as South Upper, 902... which the floor plan http://www.nabshow.com/2009/exhibitservices/pdfs/master/s3.pdf lists as "NAB." Several large booths show NAB as the occupant, and a number of smaller ones appear vacant. More details about the Quantel pullout on Broadcasting and Cable: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162895-Quantel_Pulls_Out_of_NAB_Show.php or if you can't read it there... same story on Digital Producer: http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=642940 Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From TED at TEDLANGDELL.COM Wed Jan 28 21:27:13 2009 From: TED at TEDLANGDELL.COM (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:27:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Quantel cancels NAB exhibit Message-ID: A press release Quantel put out on Jan. 11 is just now hitting trade pubs: http://quantel.com/page.php?u=a4e9496112a79b7b65016b41f599e578 Quantel not exhibiting at NAB 2009 Quantel has announced to its customers that it will not be exhibiting at NAB in 2009. Quantel CEO Ray Cross said: “It’s not a decision that we’ve come to without a great deal of thought. However in the current general economic climate we quite simply can’t justify the $1million+ investment that exhibiting at NAB would require. This year we’re being prudent; I’m sure our customers are too. “The roadshows we’ve been running around the world over the last year have showed us that many of our customers really appreciate the convenience and individual attention that such events can offer,” Cross continued. “These initiatives will therefore continue to be at the forefront of our customer-facing activities over the coming months, in combination with the regular visits that our R&D, support, sales, marketing and management teams make to our users. “We are busy working on new projects for major customers around the world at the moment and are progressing exciting new developments such as V4.1 and beyond, RED workflow, Stereo3D, Dino and FCP server integration to name just a few. Not going to NAB in this challenging year will allow R&D to focus fully on delivering for our customers. This year delivery, not marketing, comes first,” Cross concluded. Quantel's 60' x 70' booth SL720 in the front of Lower South Hall was across the asile from Thomson's 120 x 140 palace, and on the south side between Silicon Graphics and Chyron. As of this writing, the booth was still labelled for Quantel on floor diagrams, http://www.nabshow.com/2009/exhibitservices/pdfs/master/s1.pdf but a search for Quantel using the exhibitor search box reported "0" results. Meantime, Avid announced its return after a one year absence, and is listed as South Upper, 902... which the floor plan http://www.nabshow.com/2009/exhibitservices/pdfs/master/s3.pdf lists as "NAB." Several large booths show NAB as the occupant, and a number of smaller ones appear vacant. More details about the Quantel pullout on Broadcasting and Cable: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162895-Quantel_Pulls_Out_of_NAB_Show.php or if you can't read it there... same story on Digital Producer: http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=642940 Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au Wed Jan 28 21:59:22 2009 From: irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au (Ian Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:59:22 +1100 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <987394DF-6E24-456E-909A-B99396E1998A@colorist.org> References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com><006901c980eb$8fee0360$6600a8c0@flight4> <987394DF-6E24-456E-909A-B99396E1998A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF951619259BEB69@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge> Not quite 'amateur' but I am a member of the volunteer NSW Rural Fire service in a remote and mountainous region of NSW Australia. Our Brigade shed has a [the only] HF radio licence in the service. Blasting 100 Watts of HF power from our Cat-1 tanker gets us comms back to our fire shed when other trendy VHF and UHF comms fall silent in tears by the wayside. As for mobile cell phones....well really. HF rules Cheers Ian [tuning a long wire HF antenna is a pleasure] Richardson Sydney From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Jan 28 22:58:28 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:58:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff Message-ID: It seems that the House bill to extend the Analog cutoff was actually defeated. This is very good news as far as I am concerned. A solitary case where bleeding-heart liberals did not prevail. I can hardly wait for the day when broadcasters feel comfortable with using the full width of the screen. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From ken at flight4.org Wed Jan 28 22:01:16 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:01:16 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF951619259BEB69@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge> References: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E06200@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com><006901c980eb$8fee0360$6600a8c0@flight4> <987394DF-6E24-456E-909A-B99396E1998A@colorist.org> <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF951619259BEB69@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge> Message-ID: <00f901c98193$fb5c0fe0$6600a8c0@flight4> Just wanna clear up that I was taking the P*$$ a bit with my cell fone comment! I have flown in Central Oz where HF was the only option... actually good fun playing intermediary with other aircraft that can't get through to ATC! ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 From weagles at bigpond.net.au Thu Jan 29 02:02:38 2009 From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (Warren Eagles) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:02:38 +1000 Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> Hi Simon, I had a really good play at NAB on the prototype model, hooked up to a Scratch. It looked and performed very well. The "Wave" is now released and it would be great to see how it drives FCP "Color"......anybody know when it might be supported by Apple? Cheers Warren Warren Eagles Freelance Colourist Australia weagles at bigpond.net.au +61 421603111 Message: 6 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:54:55 +0000 From: Simon Blackledge Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel. To: tig at colorist.org Message-ID: <15524544-EAE4-42BB-9547-E396ABA42BEF at spacedigital.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Anyone using the new Tangent Wave? Any thoughts? Simon Blackledge VFX Supervisor/ Head of Post www.spacedigital.co.uk www.matteblackfilms.com From blumediaprojekt at nerdshack.com Thu Jan 29 07:48:38 2009 From: blumediaprojekt at nerdshack.com (R. Adam Berk) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:48:38 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Anyone at HTV Hollywood this friday morning? Message-ID: Will anyone be working @ HTV in Hollywood this friday? I'll be coming down from San Francisco for an 8am appointment on a Spirit. We're transferring selects from a short I DP'd in November. Adam Berk Creative Technology Smoke/Flame artist and C>me development team T. +13303103950 E. adam.berk at creativetechnology.com From rlovejoy at comcast.net Thu Jan 29 12:51:27 2009 From: rlovejoy at comcast.net (Robert Lovejoy) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:51:27 -0500 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff - or not References: Message-ID: <511143F81D5C409E81E4FEBD091DCBCD@RobertPC> Not so fast - it looks like the delay might yet happen: http://www.tvpredictions.com/housedtv012909.htm I'm baffled by this - stations have been warning their viewers for months. I don't see how it can be framed as a liberal vs. conservative thing, but I guess I don't understand politics! Bob Lovejoy Shooters Post Philadelphia From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 29 13:31:04 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:31:04 +0200 Subject: [Tig] early VTR Message-ID: a TIG lurker sent this to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f1GDQDB0Ss&feature=email check out the speed of those reels, and the cool circular cutouts. the interviewer is in danger of imminent death or serious neck injury with his tie. I seem to remember warnings on the Ampex 1200s I once used of the danger in wearing a tie.. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 29 13:39:41 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:39:41 +0200 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff - or not In-Reply-To: <511143F81D5C409E81E4FEBD091DCBCD@RobertPC> References: <511143F81D5C409E81E4FEBD091DCBCD@RobertPC> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:51 PM, Robert Lovejoy wrote: > Not so fast - it looks like the delay might yet happen: http://www.tvpredictions.com/housedtv012909.htm best part of that article is the photo. I want the set in the middle. ah, i mean the one on the left, with the Buick Roadmaster dials. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From somearsehole at hotmail.com Thu Jan 29 15:29:07 2009 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:29:07 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Quantel cancels NAB exhibit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This year delivery, not marketing, comes first,” Cross concluded.oh please - stop - i can't take it anymore. No, really, i'll wet myself if i laugh anymore.Matt Willis-Jones Quantel eQ / Shake artist, Oslo _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun—Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Jan 29 15:48:53 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:48:53 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> References: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: Not any time soon as far as I know... but with Apple, no one knows. The issue is that the COLOR interface is looking for an ethernet connection and the Wave is USB. > The "Wave" is now released and it would be great to see how it > drives FCP "Color"......anybody know when it might be supported by > Apple? > Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From jt at traktionfilms.com Thu Jan 29 15:58:23 2009 From: jt at traktionfilms.com (jt at traktionfilms.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:58:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> References: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <7ed57fe78f8c90bf0e027bb572d41fa1.squirrel@webmail.traktionfilms.com> I've been using the Wave panel a bit on a recent job (with Scratch) and I like it a lot. I will buy one for my own system. And I'm comparing it to the CP200 set, which I also like a lot, but is a bit much for my liking as I tend to use a wacom, keyboard, and on-screen tools a lot - a legacy of my compositor background, I guess. On the plus side: it's a great size for portability, and I do work in different locations on both my own system and client systems. I also prefer this size because it doesn't crowd out my other most useful tools: Wacom tablet & keyboard. I like the separated dials and trackballs - I have a tendency to 'nudge' the trackballs inadvertently when spinning the outer dial on the CP200. There are enough knobs & buttons to program most of what I need in Scratch, though it'd be nice to have one more set of knobs. Being USB it's a piece of cake to install - much easier than the IP based CP200. Price - there's nothing on the market that even comes close at this price. I've used the slightly pricier JL Cooper, and though it's solidly built, the considerably greater number of controls on the Wave make it a clear winner. On the minus side: Though the build quality seems good, it's a step down from the CP200. I think a slightly 'heftier' type of plastic would have felt nicer, but the casing seems solid and there was nothing about it that bothered me during use. cheers, John Tissavary e.p. | colorist TRAkTION* los angeles http://www.traktionfilms.com http://www.lunacie.com From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Jan 29 17:37:30 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:37:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff - or not In-Reply-To: <511143F81D5C409E81E4FEBD091DCBCD@RobertPC> References: <511143F81D5C409E81E4FEBD091DCBCD@RobertPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Robert Lovejoy wrote: > Not so fast - it looks like the delay might yet happen: > http://www.tvpredictions.com/housedtv012909.htm Yes, it seems that there is still opportunity. > I'm baffled by this - stations have been warning their viewers for months. I > don't see how it can be framed as a liberal vs. conservative thing, but I > guess I don't understand politics! You missed the "bleeding heart" qualification. These are the politicians who consider the last 6% (or 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0.5%) of procrastinators to be critically important. I am often a procrastinator as well, but you can be sure that if my TV went black that I would be off the couch in short order. If the US government wants to make sure that it can communicate with all its citizens then it should send them all solar-powered AM radios tunable to just one channel. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bob at bluescreen.com Thu Jan 29 17:56:46 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:56:46 -0800 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >A solitary case where bleeding-heart liberals did not prevail. I find this comment completely unacceptable in this venue. Keep this kind of thing to yourself. No one here gives a crap about your (or my) political opinion. Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From Stn3 at aol.com Thu Jan 29 17:54:42 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:54:42 -0800 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> Bob, It would seem your joy has been misplaced. The vote in the house only delays the measure - doesn't defeat it! It will pass as the procedural vote fell only 10 votes short of a required 2/3 majority to "fast track" the measure to the senate. Another vote next week only requires a simple majority to pass. Since the measure garnered 260 votes, it would seem many of your "bleeding-heart" Republicans voted for the measure as well. Since more than 2.6 Americans are on waiting lists for change-over coupons, I see no harm in the delay. Before you go on about the coupons being government welfare, please remember that our Government passed a TV regulation that instantly outdated most TV sets in service, so the cost of the coupons should be considered the cost of changing over. Most analog TV will be gone soon enough. It should be noted that many TV stations are not broadcasting HDTV, but instead digital versions of their normal 4:5 pictures. So much for purchasing wide-screen sets. Others have "sold" some or all of their digital channels for 24-7 infomercials, and are broadcasting their main programming on low-power analog channels which are exempt from the new law. Our CBS affiliate here in Palm Springs comes to mind as an example. They have already announced that they have no intention to broadcast a CBS network digital signal for the foreseeable future. The do have a digital signal on TWC here in the valley, but not over the air. As far as wide-screen programming is concerned, have you noticed that HBO and Showtime are broadcasting panned and scanned (2.35 to 177) for their HD digital channels? This was something HD was supposed to eliminate. Our glorious networks are doing the same thing. So we are still not seeing what film makers intended for wide-screen scope films. This is something I really do not understand since they have been broadcasting commercials with letterbox formats for years now. Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Bob Friesenhahn Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 2:58 PM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. ==== From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Thu Jan 29 18:09:42 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:09:42 -0800 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> References: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA503E5AFAC@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Major point of concern I see is that if people cannot easily get broadcast TV (analog or digital), and there are more major hurricanes, tornados, floods, tsunamis, killer mutant ninja rabbits, earthquakes, terror attacks, or other emergencies, then people who are already not prepared will be even less so. Craig Nichols DFT-Film From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Jan 29 18:21:00 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:21:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> References: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > > Since more than 2.6 Americans are on waiting lists for change-over > coupons, I see no harm in the delay. Before you go on about the > coupons being government welfare, please remember that our > Government passed a TV Are you sure that this 2.6 Americans is not actually the estimate of the number of unconverted TVs rather than the number of people waiting for change-over coupons? I *do* support the incredibly successful coupon program, even if that opinion might be construed to be political opinion and therefore not suitable here. > It should be noted that many TV stations are not broadcasting HDTV, but > instead digital versions of their normal 4:5 pictures. So much for Complain to your TV station, not to me. :-) > As far as wide-screen programming is concerned, have you noticed > that HBO and Showtime are broadcasting panned and scanned (2.35 to > 177) for their HD digital channels? This was something HD was > supposed to eliminate. Our HBO has been scaling and trimming their HD content for years. In times past, Showtime has aired some of the best HD content I have ever seen, but now they somehow can't produce programming advertisements in the correct aspect ratios. There is no doubt that some areas are much better prepared than others. There have been HD broadcasts in my area since 1998 and all 18+ stations have converted to at least digital for a number of yeas now. Other areas are poorly served. Eliminating the analog signal will help convince these areas to update their equipment. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 29 18:00:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:00:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <228518CB-E340-4FDD-95EA-DD300AF61365@colorist.org> On Jan 29, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: >> A solitary case where bleeding-heart liberals did not prevail. > > I find this comment completely unacceptable in this venue. I agree with everyone. the buck stops here (buck=thread-offshoot). -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/flounder rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Thu Jan 29 19:21:04 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:21:04 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: <7ed57fe78f8c90bf0e027bb572d41fa1.squirrel@webmail.traktionfilms.com> References: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> <7ed57fe78f8c90bf0e027bb572d41fa1.squirrel@webmail.traktionfilms.com> Message-ID: >Price - there's nothing on the market that even comes close at this price. What is the list price of this thing? Does it talk to SpeedGrade OnSet? Anyone using it with that? The web site is long on marketing and pretty pictures and short on "This is how much this thing costs retail, and these are the products it currently works with." --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at cinelab.com Thu Jan 29 21:02:12 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:02:12 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Metaspeed Fix Speed Message-ID: <99AD065A-B684-4FE7-8955-604FDEFD6747@cinelab.com> HI My Copernicus machine is acting a little weird.. I cannot get it to do anything but 23.98 ??? I go to the speed set on the control panel and when I turn the knob the varispeed indicator moves on the Copernicus UI but the Metaspeed VT 100 Speed just says FIX is there a way to override this in the VT-100 terminal so I can run other speeds... Also is there a VT100 terminal for the SGI-O2 so i can setup the metaspeed terminal on our 888DUI machine? -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Jan 29 21:00:35 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:00:35 -0800 Subject: [Tig] OT-False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> References: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <153754DF-32BB-4BDB-B7B2-412296510852@tedlangdell.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 9:54 AM, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > Our CBS affiliate here in Palm Springs comes to mind as an example. > They have > already announced that they have no intention to broadcast a CBS > network > digital signal for the foreseeable future. The do have a digital > signal on > TWC here in the valley, but not over the air. The station mentioned is a low power "-CA" class of station and does not fall under the requirement that full power television stations face: Terminate analog signals by such and such a date... whatever that may ultimately become. And in the Coachella Valley (Palm Springs market) there's 87% cable penetration, according to a Broadcasting and Cable story from 2003: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/151083-Big_Little_Market.php This makes "being seen" somewhat less of a problem for stations that have cable carriage, but only full-power stations are entitled to "must carry" carriage by cable systems. -LP and -CA stations, and their cousins, translators that bring in other stations to an area are not entitled, which makes over-the-air reception for these stations essential in markets where cable and satellite services. Unlike full-power stations that could have an analog and digital signals on-air during the transition, the low powered stations are stuck with an either/or situation. They can "flash-cut" to digital... but if the market's not switched yet, or converter box penetration isn't high, lack of receivability becomes a serious problem. Some markets have already made the switch. Chico-Redding just north of me did so late last year and it does make a big difference in picture quality.. and it the number of "channels" one can see. Unfortunately the "cliff effect" means the pictures are either there well... badly pixellated or not there at all. I hope people aren't lulled into thinking that the addition of a converter box to analog sets, or purchase of a new HD set with digital tuner is going to immediately bring DTV reception. In a lot of places— and from my own experience—outside antennas are necessary to complete the OTA picture. At least when the reception's good, the work of colorists is more clearly seen : ) Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From jt at traktionfilms.com Thu Jan 29 22:08:36 2009 From: jt at traktionfilms.com (jt at traktionfilms.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:08:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: References: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> <7ed57fe78f8c90bf0e027bb572d41fa1.squirrel@webmail.traktionfilms.com> Message-ID: Not sure of the exact price - I think it's @ $1,500 No idea re. speedgrade - which does use CP200, but that's ethernet, not USB. JT >>Price - there's nothing on the market that even comes close at this >> price. > > What is the list price of this thing? > > Does it talk to SpeedGrade OnSet? Anyone using it with that? > > The web site is long on marketing and pretty pictures and short on "This > is > how much this thing costs retail, and these are the products it currently > works with." > > --Bob > > Bob Kertesz > BlueScreen LLC > Hollywood, California > bob at bluescreen.com > > The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. > For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com > From rob at cinelab.com Thu Jan 29 22:27:11 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Metaspeed Fix Speed In-Reply-To: <003301c9825c$647f5b80$2d7e1280$@net> References: <99AD065A-B684-4FE7-8955-604FDEFD6747@cinelab.com> <003301c9825c$647f5b80$2d7e1280$@net> Message-ID: <27E40287-DFCE-4552-AE98-DDCB908DD2E7@cinelab.com> > I expect you know this but if you have a terminal connected to the > metaspeed, just press numbers 1 thru 9 to select other speeds. Nope... When the FPS says FIX the number entry does not work, tried it on the Copernicus system which is Metaspeed 1.98I and the 888 DUI system which is 1.98D ???? -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Jan 29 22:38:53 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 00:38:53 +0200 Subject: [Tig] trim, trim Message-ID: <7449A00D-5DD3-4D97-AAA9-9B86D1DB92FD@colorist.org> The people who post to the TIG are like .8% of the subscribers. these posters are to be thanked for keeping the tig active. and they are to be reminded, some of them that is, to hew to the controls and strictions advised at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Guide_to_TIG_Etiquette in terms of quoting previous messages. If you quote, please quote for context. If you quote the entire previous message below your reply (so-called "top-quoting") your message may be deleted. consider: the TIG has archives, which are indexed daily. If you quote extensively, other than contextually, your reply will be indexed by the programs that do so. and will be added to the archive indices in an order that will obviate the normal order of things. The search bots from Google, Yahoo, and others, will index your quoting, and your reply, such that the whole thing becomes a mess. Bots for search engines hit the TIG at something like 2 times per second on the archives. thank you for your understanding. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From SKIADCOCK at aol.com Thu Jan 29 23:41:51 2009 From: SKIADCOCK at aol.com (SKIADCOCK at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:41:51 EST Subject: [Tig] NAB dropping hotel rates if anyone's going & Thomson's selling Grass Valley Message-ID: Thomson's selling Grass Valley; also, its digital signage unit. Supposedly going to focus on media & content providers, etc, etc. Thomson (NYSE:TMS) is putting Grass Valley up for sale. The Parisian tech giant today said the board approved divesting the division, along with its Premier Retail Networks digital signage business. Thomson has received “ expressions of interest” in the business units, wire reports indicate. Thomson announced the move this morning as it warned of breaching loan covenants. Some of the company’s private placements require that debt doesn’t exceed net worth. “Based on preliminary unaudited data, it is likely that when the 2008 audited consolidated financial statements are completed and available at the latest, by the end of April 2009, this covenant will be breached.” Thomson’s press release stated. Thomson estimated its debt to be nearly $2.8 billion. It had a little over $1 million in cash at the end of the year; money it drew down from the balance remaining on its syndicated credit facility. Market cap in France was around $463 million this morning with shares trading at $1.42 after tumbling 15 percent on the news. NAB housing drops prices: If you haven't made your reservations but are planning on going, you might want to book now. See below. I think the NAB website _www.nabshow.com_ (http://www.nabshow.com) has all the current pricing on its site, but here are some of the drops. NAB Hotels have recently slashed rates on a limited number of rooms at participating hotels. Availability is on a first come first serve basis, prices are subject to change without notice. RECENTLY REDUCED RATES AVAILABLE AT THE FOLLOWING HOTELS: Bally's - $179 Bellagio - $259 Best Western Mardi Gras - $104 Caesars Palace - $206 Circus Circus - $51.95 -Manor Rooms Excalibur - $51 -Resort Rooms Flamingo - $175 Harrah's - $159 Las Vegas Hilton - $155 Luxor - $119 Mandalay Bay - $149 MGM Grand - $109 Mirage - $145 Monte Carlo – $135 NYNY – $129 -Park Avenue Rooms Palms Place Hotel and Spa - $149 Palms Resort and Casino - $139 Paris - $180 Platinum Hotel and Spa - $169 THEhotel at Mandalay Bay - $199 The Signature at MGM Grand- $159 Treasure Island- $169 Trump Hotel - $175 Westin Casuarina –$199 The above rates are PEAK NIGHT RATES which typically include the primary Show dates of April, 19, 20, 21 & 22. Shoulder night rates are also deeply discounted. PLEASE NOTE - Many hotels have limited inventory at these reduced rates and rates are subject to change at any time. Cheers. Sharon Adcock **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Jan 29 23:40:35 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:40:35 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: References: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> <7ed57fe78f8c90bf0e027bb572d41fa1.squirrel@webmail.traktionfilms.com> Message-ID: <14AAFD9C-4FD3-45AF-BE98-907E2BC9F748@tedlangdell.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > What is the list price of this thing? Was said to be around $1600 when introduced last year. A major NYC based on-line retailer lists it as a special order for $1,795 with one to two week delivery. It might be useable with Apple Color through the inclusion of a USB 2.0 to Ethernet adapter like this one: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3504463&CatId=589 I've asked an Apple VAR who also handles the Tangent line whether he's aware of anyone using such a combo. Would think if it's fairly easy to test whether it will support the needed connectivity/protocol, etc. Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From wgiovanella at rogers.com Fri Jan 30 04:05:46 2009 From: wgiovanella at rogers.com (Wilf Giovanella) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:05:46 -0500 Subject: [Tig] [Bulk] Re: Metaspeed Fix Speed In-Reply-To: <27E40287-DFCE-4552-AE98-DDCB908DD2E7@cinelab.com> References: <99AD065A-B684-4FE7-8955-604FDEFD6747@cinelab.com> <003301c9825c$647f5b80$2d7e1280$@net> <27E40287-DFCE-4552-AE98-DDCB908DD2E7@cinelab.com> Message-ID: <49827C9A.7090209@rogers.com> Robert Houllahan wrote: > Nope... When the FPS says FIX the number entry does not work, tried it > on the Copernicus system which is Metaspeed 1.98I and the 888 DUI system > which is 1.98D > Set the telecine to 30 frame on the local cp, then tell metaspeed something like 48fps. Speed should change. Then try setting speed in the Copernicus to 30. 30 is varispeed, 18 and 24 are fixed. Wilf Giovanella From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Fri Jan 30 16:57:41 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:57:41 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs Message-ID: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> [Tig] Radio Amateurs Ken Robinson wrote >I have flown in Central Oz where HF was the only option... actually >good fun playing intermediary with other aircraft that can't get through to >ATC! I well remember Nigeria in the mid 1980's. We, Cintel, well David Fenton actually had sold a total of at least 24 MKIII's in one order. To each of Nigerian Television Authorities (NTA) stations, 2 for each state ! I travelled the country trying to establish if ANY were in use. When it came time to arrange a visit from Lagos to Madugari the only way to communicate from the Lagos TV station to the Maiduguri station was via HF. Also it always scared the S**t out of me thinking I was about to fly on a Nigerian serviced 737 right across Nigeria. I had already seen the locals free a seized front brake on a 737 by dragging the plane along the runway with a tow truck. A few years later I was due to do the same trip. Again HF comms to Maiduguri, from Lagos. Flight was booked and I was ready to go. However via the HF comms we established they had no funds and their was no point in me going all that way to be told they could not afford any telecine bits. So I cancelled the flight. That evening Raj Sittaparalim, then of Pye/Philips arrived at our mutual agents house in Lagos. He was due to fly on the same flight to Maiduguri. I told him the situation and he, like I had, cancelled his flight. Guess what? That flight the next morning took off from Lagos and crashed about 10 minutes later. I seem to remember their were no suvivors. Raj always reckoins I saved his life. All I know is HF comms saved both our lives ! Cheers From Stn3 at aol.com Fri Jan 30 16:19:01 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:19:01 -0800 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: References: <9CF6C271CD2645DAB611B96BAE02DE95@DESKTOP> Message-ID: If you can believe a Government Press Release, they say that they have 2.6 million requests for coupons on hold for lack of funding. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 10:21 AM To: S. T. Nottingham III Cc: 'Telecine Internet Group' Subject: RE: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > > Since more than 2.6 Americans are on waiting lists for change-over > coupons, I see no harm in the delay. Before you go on about the > coupons being government welfare, please remember that our > Government passed a TV Are you sure that this 2.6 Americans is not actually the estimate of the number of unconverted TVs rather than the number of people waiting for change-over coupons? I *do* support the incredibly successful coupon program, even if that opinion might be construed to be political opinion and therefore not suitable here. From Stn3 at aol.com Fri Jan 30 16:45:17 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:45:17 -0800 Subject: [Tig] False alarm on Analog cutoff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems there is a slight typo in my statement below...that should be 2.6 million Americans. Original message... Since more than 2.6 Americans are on waiting lists for change-over coupons, I see no harm in the delay. From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 30 17:29:00 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:29:00 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2009, at 7:01 PM, tig-owner at colorist.org wrote: > I well remember Nigeria in the mid 1980's. > We, Cintel, well David Fenton actually had sold a total of at least 24 > MKIII's in one order. Those must be the same MkIIIs that Steve Roach and Mike Waldie discovered in an airplane hangar in Nigeria, and established or tried to establish a plan for getting them back to the UK, for a fraction of their original cost, as I remember (I could be a little off on the details). -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From underscan at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 17:46:59 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:46:59 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Tangent Wave panel In-Reply-To: <14AAFD9C-4FD3-45AF-BE98-907E2BC9F748@tedlangdell.com> References: <6C6E8310-0B0A-4F04-B152-4BE852BA47DC@bigpond.net.au> <7ed57fe78f8c90bf0e027bb572d41fa1.squirrel@webmail.traktionfilms.com> <14AAFD9C-4FD3-45AF-BE98-907E2BC9F748@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <4884D50F-1B8B-4457-9BF8-B62627BDAB64@gmail.com> if anyone has successfully tested this plz let us know! i have a wave but not the adapter : ( cheerz mark Am 30.01.2009 um 00:40 schrieb Ted Langdell: > I've asked an Apple VAR who also handles the Tangent line whether > he's aware of anyone using such a combo. -- underscan films | berlin From ken at flight4.org Fri Jan 30 18:12:39 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:12:39 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <008301c98306$57c28ca0$6600a8c0@flight4> OK, Peter.... you win! That story will be tough to beat... Any takers??? ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 Guess what? That flight the next morning took off from Lagos and crashed about 10 minutes later. I seem to remember their were no suvivors. Raj always reckoins I saved his life. All I know is HF comms saved both our lives ! Cheers _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 30 20:39:28 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:39:28 +0200 Subject: [Tig] planning for NAB Message-ID: NAB is approaching. what, 10-11 weeks to go. Dean Lyon of DaVinci was corresponding with me recently and asked if I'd be digging the thing this year. That's not in the cards (or slots, or roll of the dice). The last time i was at NAB, I was not working as a colorist, instead was in academia teaching at CalArts. Low on cash. A certain TIG sponsor bought me an airline ticket so I was able to go (thanks Donna). I didn't have the dough for a cab, and it was a nice desert day, so I decided to walk from McCarran Field to the Convention Center. I could see it from the air terminal. The always say distances in the desert are deceiving. That airport, as well as most of Nevada, is not built for hikers (had my best mountaineering boots on). The way from the terminal to NAB was blocked by a runway, but there was a fence, and a gate. Open. I traversed the runway. As I wasn't sucked in by an engine, so began my route through the planned and unplanned desolation, arid golf courses, and unfinished planned communities of Las Vegas. An hour later, the Convention Center loomed. It also is not built for those arriving on foot: I was tempted to climb over the antennae and dishes of all the various mobile trucks and pimpmobiles parked. The Options Intl party, also known as the TIG-Options party, their last one, was at The Beach. It was frightfully amazing. A certain TIGer, subject of a recent TIG posting, got in a fight with some guy and another TIGer was thrown out of The Beach for trying to stop the fight. Just on my way out, to catch a flight (couldn't afford to stay more than the day) and these girls, the ones who beach at The Beach were doing funnel-based proof-torquing of various TIGers on the dance floor. I looked back and saw, to my amazement and sheer delight, a spotlight on Mike Orton, dazzling, who had in each hand a few bottles, and a smile the light of which I'd never seen, directed at me. A parade on either side of body-sparkling Beach-snugglers. He was backlit even. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From N.Feldman at videopost.com Fri Jan 30 21:12:38 2009 From: N.Feldman at videopost.com (Neil B. Feldman) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:12:38 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <008301c98306$57c28ca0$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> <008301c98306$57c28ca0$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <1A697317-DAF8-43D0-AABC-2CC0A14F5779@videopost.com> I can't top Peter's story. But I can hope that the current world economic "correction" may revive an interest in this now "almost ancient" art. There is nothing quite as exciting as being able to chat with someone a continent away through the magic of HF propagation and at less than 100 watts input when the stars (or sunspots) align. Thanks Nikolai (Tesla)! Some speculate that the Internet and/or cell phone proliferation is slowly killing this great hobby. But maybe it's really because these were just Ponzi (now Madoff) schemes of technology. -Neil W3CAF From rob at colorist.org Fri Jan 30 22:00:01 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:00:01 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <1A697317-DAF8-43D0-AABC-2CC0A14F5779@videopost.com> References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> <008301c98306$57c28ca0$6600a8c0@flight4> <1A697317-DAF8-43D0-AABC-2CC0A14F5779@videopost.com> Message-ID: <043E5794-48CA-4318-8455-15F67D3F065C@colorist.org> On Jan 30, 2009, at 11:12 PM, Neil B. Feldman wrote: > But I can hope that the current world economic "correction" may > revive an interest in this now "almost ancient" art. There is > nothing quite as exciting as being able to chat with someone a > continent away through the magic of HF propagation and at less than > 100 watts input when the stars (or sunspots) align. Thanks Nikolai > (Tesla)! with 100 watts, from the Hollywood Hills, I once spoke with Randy Christian on Pitcairn Island, direct descendant of Fletcher Christian (of Mutiny on the Bounty fame) and somewhere in storage have the QSL card from the contact. Also spoke with the late King Hussein of Jordan. > Some speculate that the Internet and/or cell phone proliferation is > slowly killing this great hobby. But maybe it's really because > these were just Ponzi (now Madoff) schemes of technology. an apt analogy Neil. yet, it's hard to find- yet one can find- radio amateurs who have something interesting to talk about other than their equipment. The late engineer of Unitel/Editel in NYC, Tom Eyring, was a close friend, and i can relate this small story. Dan Rosen, President of Editel/Unitel in the 90s, was coming to my Hollywood Hills home to visit and then go to dinner. Tom and I had set up a sked - a schedule in ham radio terms- to coincide with Dan's visit. Tom was Dan's Chief Technology Officer at the time. I ushered Dan into the radio room, overlooking the LA skyline from just below the Hollywood sign, and mentioned that perhaps (with static in the background) that he'd like to talk to a friend back in NYC. This was back in about 1993. We then heard Tom calling me on the radio (20 meters, around 14.5kHz) and I answered and gave Dan the microphone. Today it sounds quaint. Then it was a thrill for the three of us, and Dan didn't know what the hell to talk about. Rob- KB6CUN/UT5 (Ukraine) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Sat Jan 31 00:11:49 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:11:49 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: <1A697317-DAF8-43D0-AABC-2CC0A14F5779@videopost.com> References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> <008301c98306$57c28ca0$6600a8c0@flight4> <1A697317-DAF8-43D0-AABC-2CC0A14F5779@videopost.com> Message-ID: >Some speculate that the Internet and/or cell phone proliferation is >slowly killing this great hobby. But maybe it's really because these >were just Ponzi (now Madoff) schemes of technology. It's more likely the diluting of the once high standards that were required of us to qualify for club membership. When they made the license available without having to learn Morse code or know enough theory to McGiver together a one tube transmitter and superhet receiver out of spare parts and chewing gum, the hobby lost much of its fraternal charm. --Bob VE2BZK (inactive, in L.A.) Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Sat Jan 31 00:29:21 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:29:21 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT Re: Radio Amateurs In-Reply-To: References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> <008301c98306$57c28ca0$6600a8c0@flight4> <1A697317-DAF8-43D0-AABC-2CC0A14F5779@videopost.com> Message-ID: <23423F8E-5A8C-4C60-8BF8-DB484C7EE72F@colorist.org> On Jan 31, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > When they made the license available without having to learn Morse > code or > know enough theory to McGiver together a one tube transmitter and > superhet > receiver out of spare parts and chewing gum, the hobby lost much of > its > fraternal charm. > > --Bob VE2BZK (inactive, in L.A.) well bob, there are many things about Amateur Radio that are cutting edge. In the 80s I learned about unix via packet radio. in 87 I had my first packet radio node operating as kb6cun-6 out of the Hollywood Hills. This led to... a lot of things including satellite tracking, Unix protocols at the machine level, and Packet Radio.. which led to Cell Phone technology, and network sharing. And ... there are many other vectors ... I do know morse code. amateur General License 13 words per minute. but the future, as Wayne Green pointed out, is in spectrum management... anyway, so goes the thread... and so goes our mandate, as the TIG, to be on topic.. so sorry everyone. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ilampooranan at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 06:33:33 2009 From: ilampooranan at gmail.com (ilampooranan) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:03:33 +0530 Subject: [Tig] Evertz Keycode Problem Message-ID: <4dcf01fc0901302233n24b88ffete61a45c6c9ac1bab@mail.gmail.com> Dear Sir, We have Evertz-4025D with URSA Diamond facility. There is a problem in keycode end punch ( Keycode out). While forward play (PAL 25fps) front panel TELECINE LOCK LED blinks in-between and the keycode out comes with erratic delays as below example Actual beginning punch: FN32 2562-6394+00 Actual End punch: FN32 2562 9964+00 Evertz counts Beginning Punch : FN32 2562-6394+00 ( Correctly) Evertz counts End Punch : FN32 2562-9962+08 ( Wrong) as per film the Evertz counts begining punch takes perfect, but end punch appears 2 foot 07 frames delay. The delay varies if we do again the same footage. We reseated all three boards and factory reset also. But the problem persist the same. Kindly advice us to fix the problem. Regards, Ilampooranan.S From ted at tedlangdell.com Sat Jan 31 09:39:17 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:39:17 -0800 Subject: [Tig] planning for NAB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:39 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > NAB is approaching. what, 10-11 weeks to go. > > Dean Lyon of DaVinci was corresponding with me recently and > asked if I'd be digging the thing this year. That's not in the cards > (or slots, or roll of the dice). Then we'll have an invisible seat for you at the second annual Quad/ Editor's/Telecine informal lunch on Tuesday, April 21 at 12:30pm somewhere adjacent to or in South Hall. See http://www.Quadvideotapegroup.com for details as time grows closer. I may have a Quad reel on a stick as the locator icon this year. Cue announcer: "Yes folks, Quad Reel on a stick! The cool, new frozen NAB confection. Perfect for those hot days in the desert. Just ask Rob Linglebach!" Ted Ted Langdell flashscan8.us Secretary for the QuadVideotapeGroup.com From underscan at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 10:33:42 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:33:42 +0100 Subject: [Tig] seating situation Message-ID: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> Hi What is the best or most common seating situation for clients in a grading suite? Should the operator sit behind the client or next to him? Do clients rather prefer a movie theatre sort of feeling and thus cinema style chairs are a better thing than a fancy designer couch? What are your experiences and what do clients generally expect? cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From underscan at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 10:44:57 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:44:57 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs / Nigeria In-Reply-To: References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <6F909FC3-2FE0-4739-9582-58B5C0F45848@gmail.com> Am 30.01.2009 um 18:29 schrieb Rob Lingelbach: > Those must be the same MkIIIs that Steve Roach and Mike Waldie > discovered > in an airplane hangar in Nigeria, ... Talking about Nigeria. I just watched this movie http://www.goodcopybadcopy.net/ about the current state of copyright and culture which i highly recommend and it´s a free download to! It was interesting to see how many movies Nigeria produces per year. 1400 compared to around 700 made in Hollywood! Very impressive, though made entirely on video. Also they don´t even have a copyright law still no one would buy a ripped movie which was made inside Nigeria. cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From ken at flight4.org Sat Jan 31 14:46:28 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:46:28 -0200 Subject: [Tig] Evertz Keycode Problem In-Reply-To: <4dcf01fc0901302233n24b88ffete61a45c6c9ac1bab@mail.gmail.com> References: <4dcf01fc0901302233n24b88ffete61a45c6c9ac1bab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003501c983b2$b40edca0$6600a8c0@flight4> Have you tried entering into the setup via the computer interface where you will find all the offsets? Have you tried contacting Evertz themselves? Having said that the last time I got the head office in the US and asked about a reader head for a Diamond, the girl suggested that I had the wrong number and should look for a jeweller! And who are you, where are you, Thailand?? We like to know these things! ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of ilampooranan Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 04:34 To: tig at colorist.org Subject: [Tig] Evertz Keycode Problem Dear Sir, We have Evertz-4025D with URSA Diamond facility. There is a problem in keycode end punch ( Keycode out). While forward play (PAL 25fps) front panel TELECINE LOCK LED blinks in-between and the keycode out comes with erratic delays as below example From ken at flight4.org Sat Jan 31 14:52:47 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:52:47 -0200 Subject: [Tig] seating situation In-Reply-To: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> Well, depends on which country you are in! Not good Fung Shui in China if you sit (as colourist) directly behind the client, for example. Did you ask your clients directly by any chance? Normally the person who is taking responsibility might like to sit close to you so you can communicate easily... the rest, maybe further away, so that they can use their computers.... What are you mostly grading? Commercials, movies??? I think I have seen every set up imaginable! Although didn't see a dress circle yet! Wait, there was a projectionist watching the grading at Cinecitta from the gallery, does that count? ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of underscan at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 08:34 To: tig Subject: [Tig] seating situation 2065 subscribers as of January 2009 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Thanks to Shooters, Inc. for supporting the TIG. ==== Hi What is the best or most common seating situation for clients in a grading suite? Should the operator sit behind the client or next to him? Do clients rather prefer a movie theatre sort of feeling and thus cinema style chairs are a better thing than a fancy designer couch? What are your experiences and what do clients generally expect? cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From underscan at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 15:16:51 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:16:51 +0100 Subject: [Tig] seating situation In-Reply-To: <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <06677E59-E620-4674-8EDC-B9EF9848C6D8@gmail.com> > Well, depends on which country you are in! Germany : ) > Did you ask your clients directly by any chance? not yet. i was just wondering what is commonly used elsewhere and what offers the best solution for both the client and the colorist. > What are you mostly grading? Commercials, movies??? i´d say rather movies than commercials and a lot of TV jobs probably. cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From bobfesta at mac.com Sat Jan 31 16:10:41 2009 From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:10:41 -0800 Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately? In-Reply-To: <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com> On Jan 31, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Ken Robinson wrote: > > What are you mostly grading? Commercials, movies??? Kens post has a nice byline. What are you working on lately? My last session on Friday was a 4k to 4k Red Camera AAA commercial. (Auto Insurance). It was nice to work in 4k realtime. Baselight. A mode. Data out. What did you work on Friday? No affiliation with any manufacturer. ___________________ Bob Festa New Hat 1819 Colorado Avenue Santa Monica, CA 90409 310 401-2220 bobfesta.com From underscan at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 17:02:56 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:02:56 +0100 Subject: [Tig] seating situation In-Reply-To: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I think Ken is right ... it really does depend on the market. I was > used to having DP's or directors sit next to me in Europe, but here > in the States clients prefer to sit way behind. that´s interesting! i wonder how much one gets distracted by sitting behind the operator if u grade on a big screen! a colleague of mine has a suite where his clients sit in front of him right before the screen for feature film grading. for CRT based stuff they sit next to him. > Another important factor would probably be your monitoring > situation, CRTs have a better viewing angle than LCDs and you > obviously might want them closer if you got the latter. we will be working with LCDs for sure and a proper screen for features. > And I'm just curious Mark, what do you use for grading features by > the way (in terms of monitoring)? we are planning on using a JVC DLA-HD100 (the new version that comes out actually) haven´t really made a decision on the screen yet. cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From ken at flight4.org Sat Jan 31 17:16:20 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:16:20 -0200 Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately? In-Reply-To: <6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com> References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> <6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com> Message-ID: <003701c983c7$a45c1b00$6600a8c0@flight4> To be honest.... Friday, I was freaking out trying to get a rather nice malbec entered into an international wine tasting in Mendoza. Managed it! ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 (Am affiliated with the malbec that I mentioned) -----Original Message----- From: Bob Festa [mailto:bobfesta at mac.com] What did you work on Friday? ___________________ Bob Festa From cemoz101 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 31 16:50:32 2009 From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 08:50:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] seating situation In-Reply-To: <06677E59-E620-4674-8EDC-B9EF9848C6D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Mark, I think Ken is right ... it really does depend on the market. I was used to having DP's or directors sit next to me in Europe, but here in the States clients prefer to sit way behind. Another important factor would probably be your monitoring situation, CRTs have a better viewing angle than LCDs and you obviously might want them closer if you got the latter. And I'm just curious Mark, what do you use for grading features by the way (in terms of monitoring)? Thanks! Cem Colourist RingSide Creative From bob at bluescreen.com Sat Jan 31 21:13:38 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 13:13:38 -0800 Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately? In-Reply-To: <6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com> References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com> <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4> <6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com> Message-ID: <56f9o450r75frkdmtsg0fos036b1c9b14j@4ax.com> >My last session on Friday was a 4k to 4k Red Camera AAA commercial. >(Auto Insurance). It was nice to work in 4k realtime. Baselight. A >mode. Data out. > >What did you work on Friday? Something different from what is the norm here, but perhaps interesting. I was in New York, doing two camera live compositing for the press junket for the movie Pink Panther 2. I was compositing reporters into the passenger seat of a Smart Car, interviewing Steve Martin in character as Inspector Clouseau, driving the car. The part with Martin was shot on green about a month ago, then a 3D version of the car was wrapped around him by Toy Box in Burbank, with moving Paris footage out the window, and I inserted the live reporters into the car, asking preset questions with preset answers. It was fun, but a bit tedious after the thirtieth reporter :-). --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From carl at stopp.se Sat Jan 31 22:03:56 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:03:56 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Tig Digest, Vol 114, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Intersting Question, I've been thinking about this myself and was about to post the same Q. My company works 99% on comercials and for both our daVinci-suites we have a big desk with seats for me and 2-3 clients next to me, then a table behind us with sofa for about 4-6 clients. I think for comercials this is the common way to grade. Since I will sit next to 1 director, 1 DoP & maybe 1 creative director from the agency. In the sofa behind, the prducer and the rest of the non-interested people will sit and discus random bullsh*t. I think its nice to be in front for these kind of jobs, Me and the DoP/Dir/AD can set a look, turn around and say: "what you think?" to the guys in the backseat. And when they aprove it, I/we can continue working. But for a Cinema grade, I think it more comon to have the clients in from of you. maybe thats because the colorist needs a certain distans to the screen, while the clients wouldn't want to sit behind the him and the big desk. And a cinema room looks better if it has real cinema-shares. But how about a "combo" suite? A Resolve/Luster/Baselight/Nucoda (etc) that is used for both for theatrical featurefilms and TV comercials? Is it ok to have the client sitting in a cinema-grade-room when you are working on a Comercial? Have anyone made a room with a projector + a Monitor (LCD / CRT). And when doing a film, you have the clients in the cinema-style shares. And when you do a TVC on a monitor, you have the monitor in fron of you and the clients sitting behind you. This would mean that you have extra space in front and behind you. Meaning not using the full room al the time. Having the clients either in fron or behind. Not both. /carl ------------------------------------------------------------ Hi What is the best or most common seating situation for clients in a grading suite? Should the operator sit behind the client or next to him? Do clients rather prefer a movie theatre sort of feeling and thus cinema style chairs are a better thing than a fancy designer couch? What are your experiences and what do clients generally expect? cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin ------------------------------------------------------------ From rpunger at mac.com Sat Jan 31 20:44:58 2009 From: rpunger at mac.com (richard unger) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 15:44:58 -0500 Subject: [Tig] seating situation In-Reply-To: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86783A13-6BF3-4D22-A31E-A9A426CA4659@mac.com> Well if it's a Zenith with a Hi Fi stero built in the console your going to want to get right up front for the good seat. All kidding aside clients are all over the place with me. Behind me,next to me,snoring on the couch. And even in my chair 20%extra for that though. Just saw Barco's new LCD monitor very impressive. With a really good viewing angles. Looking forward to the economy to amp up and get some commerical shoots going. Can I get an amen please . Nuff said, finger cramping from typing on phone. Everyone have a great 09,Peace Rick Unger Colorist, Milagro From sklein54 at earthlink.net Sat Jan 31 21:26:59 2009 From: sklein54 at earthlink.net (sklein54 at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 13:26:59 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately? Message-ID: <23461277.1233437220302.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Bob, Ken & all. D5 to HDSR Hi Def hr-long cable TV Show drama. Linear baby....full heads-on tape shuttle via DaVinci 2K. This weekend I am taking a scythe to my lawn in another nod to completely outdated but still-usable tools. From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sat Jan 31 23:43:32 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 17:43:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs / Nigeria In-Reply-To: <6F909FC3-2FE0-4739-9582-58B5C0F45848@gmail.com> References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com> <6F909FC3-2FE0-4739-9582-58B5C0F45848@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jan 2009, underscan at gmail.com wrote: > > It was interesting to see how many movies Nigeria produces per year. > 1400 compared to around 700 made in Hollywood! I am sure that this depends on what you consider to be a "movie". Otherwise there would surely be at least 700 "movies" made per day in Hollywood. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From somearsehole at hotmail.com Sat Jan 31 22:35:01 2009 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 22:35:01 +0000 Subject: [Tig] seating situation In-Reply-To: References: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > a colleague of mine has a suite where his clients sit in front of him > right before the screen for feature film grading. for CRT based stuff > they sit next to him.hmmm. I used to be in a situation where I sat behind the client. As an operator I didn't like it - i could hardly see the client(s) in the gap between the monitors, and all sorts of subtle 'manners' issues came into play.... eg:the client (who likes contact with the operator) will want to turn their head to try to face you when they talk, this is obviously uncomfortable for them and makes you feel a bit embarrassed, which distracts from the job.the client (who is indifferent to the operator) doens't turn to face you - and this can easily have negative effects on how you percieve the client, which distracts from the job. *I assumed that 'the client' must really be loving this set up. When it was changed, and the client sat behind (or next to) me, I was amazed by the avalanche of positive feedback. 'Before, I felt like we were grading in a rickshaw' was one such comment. So I would say that clients in front is not so good a set-up for either party. (despite the physical limitations that the size of the suite might impose... some might insist they need the distance to be able to really view a big screen projection... that you need to be all the way back there. Well, I don't think so. I think you just need a bigger suite - one that allows you to watch a big screen projection while you share the same universe with the client) And bless TV grading, with that cosy atmosphere that allows client and operator to sit next to each other and co-exist just like George Bush dreamt of fish and people co-existing... peacefully.Matt Willis-JonesColourist / Compositor / youtuberOslo * I'm sure that no-one on this list has ever experienced negative perception of the client. This is probably an isolated case. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail, Messenger, Photos and more - all with the new Windows Live. Get started! http://www.download.live.com/