From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb  1 01:07:38 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 03:07:38 +0200
Subject: [Tig] seating situation
In-Reply-To: <BAY115-W15124D25EEC9C708CC5751D0C70@phx.gbl>
References: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<F1013136-4F95-44E3-B742-6622EED7B5B9@gmail.com>
	<BAY115-W15124D25EEC9C708CC5751D0C70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8843DE7C-4059-4DAC-8E39-0881B3FF0592@colorist.org>

what really works best in commercial grading for me is this:

console, with grading monitor at a low enough level for me not to have  
neck strain after
a long session.  that means, an almost straight line-of-sight to  
monitor.

Clients alongside, on either side of me - most often, DoP on one side,  
Director on other.
seated quite close, with WiFi for their laptops and cellphones.

behind me, the same reference  monitor, matched to the one I'm using,  
on a roll-around
stand for the clients on the sofas.  matching that monitor to the one  
I use is tricky but it
can be done, within a certain acceptable level.

Large "home TV" type wall-hanging monitor in the distance.  Always  
point out at the beginning
of sessions, that this is just a "sample representation."   *(many  
caveats here)

I was brought up in grading never to want more than one reference  
monitor in the suite.  But
it's really nice to have a very well-set-up 2nd monitor for the  
couched clients to look at, so they
feel comfortable in their back-seat domain.  Usually these are the  
agency Art Director, Production
Company Producer, and various hangers-on.

And so, I adjusted, my own predilections about the 2nd monitor, and  
the color of it so that it matched
as closely as possible.

Clients love being comfortable.

The only complaint I have is that my MacBook's power adaptor is always  
being pinched to charge the
client laptop.  Which I'm asked to use, for reference, in looking at a  
jpg or rough cut, for color matching.

One needs be gentle when explaining the limitations of matching from a  
laptop web-sourced image to
the one coming from film or data.  I've found it's best to accept the  
reference, and not be too critical
of the impossibilities involved.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From danmitre at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 05:49:12 2009
From: danmitre at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:49:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] Evertz
In-Reply-To: <003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4>
Message-ID: <982270.22457.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi
Last time I've worked with an Evertz KK reader 4025 was 4 years back and it was connected to a Philips machine. I had a lot of problems with it, but a lot of support from the technicians in Canada as well.

Try these two:
service at evertz.com
jleeman at evertz.com

I can also send you the 4025 manual as pdf file if you need it.
Gluck

George Daniel Mitre  
Mobile : +971 504668243

--- On Sun, 1/2/09, Ken Robinson <ken at flight4.org> wrote:
From: Ken Robinson <ken at flight4.org>
Subject: Re: [Tig] seating situation
To: underscan at gmail.com, "'tig'" <tig at tig.colorist.org>
Date: Sunday, 1 February, 2009, 3:52 AM

2065 subscribers as of January 2009
Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
Thanks to Shooters, Inc. for supporting the TIG.
 ====


Well, depends on which country you are in!

Not good Fung Shui in China if you sit (as colourist) directly behind the
client, for example.

Did you ask your clients directly by any chance?

Normally the person who is taking responsibility might like to sit close to
you so you can communicate easily... the rest, maybe further away, so that
they can use their computers....

What are you mostly grading? Commercials, movies???

I think I have seen every set up imaginable! Although didn't see a dress
circle yet! Wait, there was a projectionist watching the grading at
Cinecitta from the gallery, does that count?

ken robinson

  

Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570


From ken at flight4.org  Sun Feb  1 07:11:31 2009
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 05:11:31 -0200
Subject: [Tig] seating situation
In-Reply-To: <8843DE7C-4059-4DAC-8E39-0881B3FF0592@colorist.org>
References: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com><F1013136-4F95-44E3-B742-6622EED7B5B9@gmail.com><BAY115-W15124D25EEC9C708CC5751D0C70@phx.gbl>
	<8843DE7C-4059-4DAC-8E39-0881B3FF0592@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <005201c9843c$50ae3c70$6600a8c0@flight4>

Do you mean, that when said client puts the images that you graded back on
his notebook, that they won't look the same?

Or the fact that things are so different, you end up rotoscoping each
individual object in the scene to match?

All sounds rather technical to me... could be that you are now an
'operator'???

(Tongue stuck very firmly in cheek).

ken robinson
Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570


From Stn3 at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 17:34:15 2009
From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 09:34:15 -0800
Subject: [Tig] seating situation
In-Reply-To: <8843DE7C-4059-4DAC-8E39-0881B3FF0592@colorist.org>
References: <681153.97920.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com><F1013136-4F95-44E3-B742-6622EED7B5B9@gmail.com><BAY115-W15124D25EEC9C708CC5751D0C70@phx.gbl>
	<8843DE7C-4059-4DAC-8E39-0881B3FF0592@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <4938E97CA3EB4C2FA1DBE7D13C96763B@DESKTOP>

You just need to have the company "spring" for a second power supply for
your clients.

Tom



From rickpags at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 18:50:24 2009
From: rickpags at yahoo.com (wbpags)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:50:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] What were you working on Friday
Message-ID: <554949.86992.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


    
          Finished an hour long show for Nat.Geo called "Strongmen". 2 rather large fellows from Indiana schooled in wrestling and martial arts who also like to crush 
stacked piles of masonry with either their heads or their forearms. They seem to have developed very dense bone structure in the process which allows them to 
crush more mass. Nice work if you can get it. They went to Scotland to compete in
the Highland games. These guys are strong but didn't fair too well with the kilted wonders.  All done on Baselight. Brought in 720p output to HDSR 1080i. Worked like a charm.

       

From owen at ywwg.com  Mon Feb  2 05:26:49 2009
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:26:49 -0500
Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately?
In-Reply-To: <6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com>
References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com>
	<003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4>
	<6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com>
Message-ID: <1233552409.7377.22.camel@ywwg>

Last week I onlined the second show in a new season for a Science
Channel series (a Discovery offshoot).  Shot on Varicam, color corrected
with Avid Symphony, and output to HDCAM-SR[1].  I did the previous
seasons as well, so the workflow for this show is well-established and
it's a predictable, smooth process.  The only real headache is blurring
logos, license plates, and phone numbers, which can be a pain in the ass
in Avid.  (I send the tougher shots over to Shake where the matte
controls are infinitely better.)

The economy being what it is, knowing I'm doing a show every three weeks
for the first half of the year is quite reassuring.  I will need more
jobs than just this of course, but it's a good start.

Owen Williams

[1]Yes, we are shooting dvcprohd and outputting to SR.  It's mostly for
the extra audio channels that the format provides. 




From peter.white at uea.ac.uk  Mon Feb  2 11:02:31 2009
From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:02:31 +0000
Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately?
In-Reply-To: <1233552409.7377.22.camel@ywwg>
References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com>
	<003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4>
	<6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com>
	<1233552409.7377.22.camel@ywwg>
Message-ID: <3DF25CF4-A091-464C-8A1B-C33CCD99ADE2@uea.ac.uk>

Finished off an 8 hour grade on a 1950 amateur production 'War Of The  
Worlds'.

Significantly better than Tom Cruise's effort.  Apologies if anyone  
worked on it.

In this version (all but 35mins long), the actors had to go into a  
local record shop, hunch around a 12" cutting machine, and record 4  
(I think) lacquer discs which were roughly in time with the film.   
They sorted it all out in film editing I reckon, cos it's  
exceptionally tight.

Then I turned to an early 70's film (B&W) about the painter John  
Constable, and almost fell asleep.

I thought I might prefer working on bigger projects, but after  
reading about The Pink Panther 2, I don't think I could hack the  
tediocity!  I hope you get some fun bits...


Peter White
Head of Technical Development

East Anglian Film Archive

From jfmann at optimum.net  Mon Feb  2 13:26:12 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:26:12 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Radio Amateurs
In-Reply-To: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com>
References: <200901301157_MC3-2-1B38-1F2E@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <000001c98539$d17b7950$74726bf0$@net>

Peter wrote:

>I told him the situation and he, like I had, cancelled his flight.

>Guess what? That flight the next morning took off from Lagos and crashed
>about 10 minutes later. I seem to remember their were no suvivors. 
>Raj always recko ins I saved his life. All I know is HF comms saved bo.lives !

Hi Peter,
Yes you can find just about anything on the internet: Good call Peter! see below;

8 November 1983; TAAG Angola Airlines 737-200; Lubango, Angola: The aircraft crashed 900 meters short of the runway. The crash killed all five crew members and 121 of 126 passengers.

Regards,
Jim

Jim Mann
Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist 
[ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK
100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10013
T 212 894 4000
C 516-250-0909
F 212 941 0439
http://www.postworks.com
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.



 




From jfmann at optimum.net  Mon Feb  2 14:14:23 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:14:23 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Calendar Entry: NYC'S MAYOR'S OFFICE HOSTS 'POST CAREER'
	PANELS
In-Reply-To: <50551F66-D1E2-4C02-92FA-3D9102B41C25@colorist.org>
References: <50551F66-D1E2-4C02-92FA-3D9102B41C25@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <001101c98540$8c3710f0$a4a532d0$@net>


See:
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

Regards;
Jim

Jim Mann
Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist 
[ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK
100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10013
T 212 894 4000
C 516-250-0909
F 212 941 0439
http://www.postworks.com
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.









From jt at traktionfilms.com  Mon Feb  2 16:45:52 2009
From: jt at traktionfilms.com (John Tissavary)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:45:52 -0500
Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately?
In-Reply-To: <1233552409.7377.22.camel@ywwg>
References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com>	<003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4>	<6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com>
	<1233552409.7377.22.camel@ywwg>
Message-ID: <49872340.9000407@traktionfilms.com>

On Friday I was in NYC with Yohance Brown finishing grading & rendering 
47 hours of Red footage, using Scratch, for a History Channel show shot 
in Tanzania.  Amazing stuff shot by Steve Moyer at The Arsenal, and 
definitely the largest quantity of Red footage I've had the opportunity 
to tackle in one fell swoop. 

I also graded two theatrical and two broadcast (local Superbowl) spots 
for History Channel.  Then caught a plane back to LA...  long & 
exciting  day!

John Tissavary
colorist
TRAkTION los angeles
m: 323.823.1399




From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Mon Feb  2 16:59:59 2009
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 11:59:59 -0500
Subject: [Tig] (TIG)  Radio Amateurs
Message-ID: <200902021200_MC3-2-1B3A-A70F@compuserve.com>

Jim Mann wrote

>Hi Peter,
>Yes you can find just about anything on the internet: Good call Peter! see
below;
>8 November 1983; TAAG Angola Airlines 737-200; Lubango, Angola: The
aircraft >crashed 900 meters short of the runway. The crash killed all five
crew members and >121 of 126 passengers.

Jim this was not the flight. So it got me looking back at what really
happened vs my memory of 26 years ago!.

I thought I would look back at my diary for the time. Being a nerd, I still
have diaries from those days! 
I found my flight details in Nigeria were as follows, 14th Nov 1983 arrived
Lagos; 22nd to Maidugari; 23rd  to Kano; 24th to Kaduna  then to Lagos then
to Enugu; 25th  to Lagos; quite a lot of flying!.

I must correct my recollection. The HF link was also to Enugu, as well as
Maidugari. Indeed I DID fly to Enugu on 24th November 1983, returning on
25th.. It was then that I met Raj of Pye/Philips that evening back in
Lagos. It was then I advised him it was pointless going to Enugu, having
found out the day before that they had no funds. Raj duly cancelled the
flight he had booked to Enugu for the 28th November 1983.

This is the report on the web re Nigerian Air crashes.   28 November 1983;
Nigeria Airways F28-2000; (Lagos to) Enugu, Nigeria: The aircraft  crashed
about two miles (3.2 km) short of the runway and caught fire after a steep
approach in poor visibility. Two of the six crew members and 51 of the 66
passengers were killed.

So I guess it was not really HF comms that saved Raj's life. 
I apologize for my memory mixing up the facts, I just remembered all the HF
comms needed to talk up/down country in Nigeria, no phones or other links. 
It was 26 years ago! 
So Ken Robinson still wins the HF comms memories!

cheers

Peter



From pickettscharge at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  2 17:49:34 2009
From: pickettscharge at hotmail.com (Dave Pickett)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:49:34 -0500
Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately?
In-Reply-To: <49872340.9000407@traktionfilms.com>
References: <31255472-2488-4DCD-8770-ACF48E41F086@gmail.com>
	<003601c983b3$96636210$6600a8c0@flight4>
	<6D415F1A-6938-4DCF-BB91-DFE80FB7722C@mac.com>
	<1233552409.7377.22.camel@ywwg>  <49872340.9000407@traktionfilms.com>
Message-ID: <BAY101-W431BEAC6266E883B613CABD2C50@phx.gbl>


Young Jeezy's latest video "My President is Black" shot on RED, transcoded to Pro Res and into the daVinci via Black Magic decklink.  It was shot outside the Ebenezer Baptist church (MLK's church) in Atlanta and the crowd was ecstatic.  Fun to work on and fun to see the vibe.


Dave Pickett

Colorist

Colorbay - Atlanta 


From peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com  Mon Feb  2 18:28:00 2009
From: peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com (peter stansfield)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:28:00 +0000
Subject: [Tig] (TIG)  Radio Amateurs
In-Reply-To: <A712D10E25BC40B883ACD442EF9C5E46@Frog>
References: <A712D10E25BC40B883ACD442EF9C5E46@Frog>
Message-ID: <24625BD6-5CCC-4358-936C-EB59CB538026@wavecrest-systems.com>

So if I understand this correctly, that's TWO fatal crashes within 20  
days,
killing in total 179 people

No wonder people don't like going to Nigeria - is it still this bad or  
has it got better?
(I note that Virgin Nigeria is no longer flying....)

Regards

Peter Stansfield
Wavecrest Systems Ltd


From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  2 19:49:12 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:49:12 +0200
Subject: [Tig] (TIG)  Radio Amateurs
In-Reply-To: <24625BD6-5CCC-4358-936C-EB59CB538026@wavecrest-systems.com>
References: <A712D10E25BC40B883ACD442EF9C5E46@Frog>
	<24625BD6-5CCC-4358-936C-EB59CB538026@wavecrest-systems.com>
Message-ID: <F6180CAD-DEEE-4473-9E41-904FF7C99184@colorist.org>


On Feb 2, 2009, at 8:28 PM, peter stansfield wrote:

> So if I understand this correctly, that's TWO fatal crashes within  
> 20 days,
> killing in total 179 people

fewer than die in jumbo crashes these days, but the point is taken.

> No wonder people don't like going to Nigeria - is it still this bad  
> or has it got better?
> (I note that Virgin Nigeria is no longer flying....)

so, they were on the verge in Nigeria,  of.. losing their will to fly?

will.2.fly  new rap singer

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  2 19:56:31 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:56:31 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Jack James' new book.
Message-ID: <FB5CC90F-DA37-4E72-9BF5-F4ABA061B056@colorist.org>

Jack James, erstwhile TIGer from long ago and current, sent me this,  
hope it's
of some edification for other TIGers.

Not sure if he's willing to send the pdf to others, but perhaps a  
personal email
to him...


Thought you'd like to know, my latest book is done, and will hit  
shelves in April. There is of course an acknowledgement to TIG. :)

I will send you a PDF version when it's ready (the PDF version is  
going to have some extra features from the book).

Meanwhile, it's on Amazon for pre-order here for more info:
www.amazon.com/Fix-Post-Solutions-Postproduction-Problems/dp/0240811240/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232638428&sr=8-1

Jack

-- 
Surreal Road
Emmunicate Insatiably...
www.surrealroad.com
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  2 20:28:21 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 22:28:21 +0200
Subject: [Tig] somewhat anonymously
Message-ID: <9729825E-0C24-455F-95E9-50D4329E5980@colorist.org>

the following was sent to me in confidence.  We discourage that on the  
TIG
but .. in the current climate.. (-11C in Kiev) it's not all that out  
of order.

-- quote below--
I was wondering if you know anyone who has some experience with the  
latest
offering from Photo-sonics?

--end quote--

answers to the list.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Tue Feb  3 21:26:59 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 23:26:59 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Rate the Colorist Reels
Message-ID: <E6B00A0E-5541-45AC-A6B6-5C242BEE5BBB@colorist.org>

On the main TIG wiki page, over to the right under the Colorist's  
Reels listing, is a new wiki link, that takes you to a new RatingReels  
page where you can rate on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being LOVED it) the  
various reels streaming at http://reels.colorist.org .

You can also leave a message on your rating, protected by recaptcha  
code.

You can only vote once -there are some protections against multiple  
votes :)

The page will be formatted more nicely in the near future, and  
structured into the wiki
architecture more proportionately.   Rate the Reels!
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/RatingReels   and the reels  
themselves
are at http://reels.colorist.org

There will be a TIG reel award based on the votes presented at NAB to  
be announced shortly.
(Dean, are you interested in presenting?)

anyone interested in including their reel please contact me offlist.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach       TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Tue Feb  3 21:33:13 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 23:33:13 +0200
Subject: [Tig] cookies problem fixed on wiki
Message-ID: <596860A1-8094-4D4F-9982-AC63F79BABD7@colorist.org>

anyone who was trying to edit the FacilityTable wiki page, or any  
other for that matter,
who hadn't already had a cookie stored on their browser with login  
info, was prevented
from doing so since 29 January with the diagnostic "Cookies must be  
enabled in your
Browser..." even if they were enabled.  Found the bug and fixed it  
today.

--
Rob Lingelbach     TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Tue Feb  3 22:45:20 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:45:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Disney profit slides
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>

I wonder if this is a taste of more to come?  This Bloomberg article 
talks about Disney profit reduction of 32% and layoffs:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a100vOJq6POM&refer=home

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From bob at bluescreen.com  Tue Feb  3 23:47:59 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 15:47:59 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Disney profit slides
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <bdlho4lc5lj4ubcvogv4iccb7qv227q9ci@4ax.com>

>I wonder if this is a taste of more to come?  This Bloomberg article talks about Disney profit reduction of 32% and layoffs:

>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a100vOJq6POM&refer=home

And then there's this one, saying that Hollywood studios turned their biggest
feature revenue month EVER this January, breaking the BILLION DOLLAR point for
the first time:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/movies/la-fi-boxoffice2-2009feb02,0,3544886.story

So which is it? 

Are they laying people off because biz is slow and income is off?

Or are they using the economic downturn as political cover for getting rid of
what is likely older and more experienced (and hence more expensive)
employees?

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From craig at optimus.com  Wed Feb  4 00:59:58 2009
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:59:58 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Disney profit slides
In-Reply-To: <bdlho4lc5lj4ubcvogv4iccb7qv227q9ci@4ax.com>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<bdlho4lc5lj4ubcvogv4iccb7qv227q9ci@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4988E88E.4050003@optimus.com>

I agree with Bob's implication -

I am so tired of projected growth not materializing, and the company in 
question calling it a "Loss". It's complete nonsense. If a large company 
like Burger World ( for instance ) says it will have double digit growth 
( 10% or more for you math challenged like me )... and then has a 5% 
actual loss in revenue,
it goes down as a 15% loss to their friends on Wall Street.....

And that prompts a need to address shareholders concerns about profits, 
which is all the reason they need to reduce headcount ( a la firing the 
mid-level managers that make "Too Much" money on paper, but nowhere near 
the senior execs, whom will never be fired ). Total Carp.

In no way do I claim to know anything about money, I just watch from the 
sidelines...

A parallel impact on our world in terms of excuses and being cheap -

Anyone besides me want to blow up the next production company that calls 
and asks for their drives back - ( that are the only copies in existence 
of the source material)- and when told the material has not been 
archived ( because why would it be for free?)  - express anger and 
frustration because they need their drives for another shoot ( Because 
they are too cheap to even buy 10 drives @ $150 each ) ???????   WTF 
people? How has post become an even bigger shit bucket than it was 
before, and why on earth do production companies feel remotely justified 
in providing elements to editors that cannot be edited with? Have these 
people forgotten completely that they sign contracts about deliverables? 
I did not think I would see the day when Post Production companies ( 
That already get the ass-end of the stick; there's always money to shoot 
and pay for production, and never enough money to finish it ) - would be 
forced at gunpoint to invest in jobs and circumstances they have no 
control over, nor any pre-involvement with, because some jackass on 
production says it will be "No Problem" in Post.... and believe me, I've 
seen some real doozies in the past 20 years with regard to finishing 
dollars, but never an out and out blatant disregard for who's paying for 
what, or how it will happen. Talk about de-valuation... ( I mean, 
there's stupid - "It costs HOW much to process the film?" or "I can get 
dailies for $100 an hour ANYWHERE" -  but this is Blatant conniving -  
"It's digital, it's instant - what's the big deal", OR "The editor can 
work right away in FCP, don't worry about it").

I'm going to lose my mind. I promise. This one is it. Esther, I'm comin, 
I'm comin Esther... !!!!


Respectfully full of snarls and profanity  -

Craig Leffel
Resident Idiot



Bob Kertesz wrote:
> So which is it? 
>
> Are they laying people off because biz is slow and income is off?
>
> Or are they using the economic downturn as political cover for getting rid of
> what is likely older and more experienced (and hence more expensive)
> employees?
>
>   




From alanr at bhphoto.com  Wed Feb  4 14:13:50 2009
From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:13:50 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Disney profit slides
In-Reply-To: <bdlho4lc5lj4ubcvogv4iccb7qv227q9ci@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C17EE9C@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local>

I think it's a little bit of everything.  There is a concern about continued and future cash flow.  There are still a lot of consumer electronics sitting in Manufacturer warehouses that were never shipped due to the low demand.  Even Circuit City had a much lower response then anticipated to their holiday time liquidation with the initial group of 150 stores they closed in an effort to stay alive.  The situation also does present a good excuse to eliminate dead or expensive weight.  Also, the fact that Hollywood had record breaking revenues means nothing, how does it compare in value to money made in previous years - ie, a dollar doesn't buy as much now as it did then. Anyway, keeping the good news rolling, I read today that Panasonic is laying off 15,000 worldwide and closing 17 plants and that NEC is laying off 20,000.


Alan Rosenfeld
The Studio - B&H


From brandon at orbitdigital.com  Wed Feb  4 15:16:10 2009
From: brandon at orbitdigital.com (Brandon Bussinger)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:16:10 -0500
Subject: [Tig] What are you working on lately?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>

	Just recently finished up the conform and grading of Notorious for  
Fox Searchlight.  Great crew, great visuals, a virtually non-existent  
schedule seemingly designed to put me in my grave, and in the end a  
good experience.  Now I'm laying low while the good folks at Modern  
finish off the video deliverables.

Brandon Bussinger

Colorist/Editor
Orbit Digital
1619 Broadway 7th floor
NY, NY 10019
646.731.3100
brandon at orbitdigital.com



From benjamin at digitalsprockets.net  Wed Feb  4 16:43:13 2009
From: benjamin at digitalsprockets.net (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Benjam=EDn_Fern=E1ndez_Maribona?=)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 10:43:13 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Tig Digest, Vol 115, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.85.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.85.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <op.uot52bzt8lv66o@amd64.gateway.2wire.net>


> What are you working on lately?

Hola!
Well I transferd and graded from 35mm a couple of weeks back a short film,  
to HD data, and a couple transfers of commercials from DV to D3, not much,  
and a lot of paperwork and estimates for film recording.
Normal in Mexico for January.
Thanks



-- 
visite:
www.digitalsprockets.net



From wwerks at verizon.net  Wed Feb  4 16:24:45 2009
From: wwerks at verizon.net (Geoff Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:24:45 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Disney profit slides
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <4989C14D.9030506@verizon.net>

As far as network TV goes, ~240 were given the ax last week, and 
yesterday they offered a buyout to staff editors. They have a magic 
number of ten volunteers which, if not met, will then be 'chosen' 
volunteers.

Heigh ho,
Geoff.


From micah at mipost.com  Wed Feb  4 17:44:50 2009
From: micah at mipost.com (Micah Kirz)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:44:50 -0500
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
	<B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
Message-ID: <A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>

Working on Vh1 commercial
Shot on 4K RED ( R3D )

Coloring On DaVinci Resolve

_____________



Has anyone come up with a decent workflow for RED to DPX files ???

For this Job
I had the Editorial finish there cuts and convert the Select Scenes
(.R3D files to .DPX )

Using RedCine setting of
4096x2048 DPX 10 Bit
REC.709 with a gamma of 2.2

Now I wish that the Time code would transfer over to the .DPX files,  
But it didn't
and I wish there was a manual for REDCINE... But ... there isn't

Now this job is for a NTSC Delivery so I felt using 709 was an ok  
choice...
But I am curious if using PD Log 685 or PD Log 985 output would have  
been better choice or introduced more noise ?

I am trying to come up with a simple workflow that I can relay to my  
clients so I will get the best possible image to work with....

any Suggestions or comments ?????
thanks
Micah




Micah Kirz
Senior Telecine Colorist

MI Post
227 East 45th Street
NYC 10017
212-953-6999
micah at micahkirz.com


http://www.micahkirz.com








From Leonard.Fohrer at nbcuni.com  Wed Feb  4 18:32:08 2009
From: Leonard.Fohrer at nbcuni.com (Fohrer, Leonard (NBC Universal))
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:32:08 -0800
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org><B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>

Have the Red LOG files converted to dpx and use those.
Red log will give you most range. (Thean you can apply your LUT)

Lenny Fohrer 


From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed Feb  4 20:21:20 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:21:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Not "fixed in post"
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902041411440.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>

How many of you have noticed something "odd" in the program content 
that you working on which would surely cause a complaint to the FCC if 
someone spotted it, yet you let it slide by without "fixing in post"?

I recall seeing something "odd" in the first episode of the family TV 
show called "Summerland" ("And So the Day Begins") which would have 
caused frantic calls to the FCC if viewers paid attention and saw what 
I spotted right away.  Thanks to a DVR I was able to single-step the 
video to make sure.  Surely someone who graded the content would have 
seen this too, yet it was allowed to slip by.

Are any of you willing to admit allowing something to slip by which 
should have been brought to the director's attention and "fixed in 
post"?

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From craig at optimus.com  Wed Feb  4 18:42:41 2009
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:42:41 -0600
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
Message-ID: <4989E1A1.9080409@optimus.com>

Hello Micah -

We do Red jobs almost every week. We never have a problem with TC, we 
create timelines at 2K or 4K based on an edl from an Editor using ANY 
system.
We grade in a Baselight 8, and we keep the entire project at 2K or 4K ( 
depending on downstream workflow or blow ups ) and we most often output 
an HDCam SR 4:4:4 that is sent into the finishing pipeline, no matter 
what the final deliverable Master is.

.Dpx files have TC built into them, there should't be any problem with 
that. Do not use Rec 709 or anything close if you want flexibility in 
your color correction abilities. RedLog or RedSpace are what you want to 
convert the R3D to - for any serious CC manipulations.... I don't care 
what the DP tells you.

Good luck -

Craig Leffel


From jack at surrealroad.com  Wed Feb  4 18:51:19 2009
From: jack at surrealroad.com (Jack James)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:51:19 +0000
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
	<B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
	<7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
Message-ID: <e9fa7d400902041051w4edf4b14neda6fbf3668d0c8f@mail.gmail.com>

Use redline or redrushes to do the conversions, this should ensure the
timecode gets embedded into the headers. Also make sure convert the frames
so that the frame numbers are encoded into the filename.Email me off the
list if you need any advice, i have done these conversions more times than i
care to remember



From lucas at assimilateinc.com  Wed Feb  4 19:06:54 2009
From: lucas at assimilateinc.com (Lucas Wilson)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:06:54 -0800
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
Message-ID: <000001c986fb$c026eea0$4074cbe0$@com>

Micah,

The short answer is, "yes, there are lots of decent workflows for RED to
DPX."

If you are rendering with REDCINE, then the best thing to do for a Resolve
is probably to remove the camera metadata (ctrl+reset in Color) and then
apply PDLog685, which gets you the closest to a "standard" Cineon curve.
This will provide maximum range.

Rendering to REC709 is not bad, especially if the final output is video, but
chances are that you will be losing some info at the bottom.

There are several shops in LA (and a couple in NYC) that I know that are
quite successfully doing DPX renders out of either REDCINE, RED Rushes, or
SCRATCH-CINE to feed a Resolve. (disclaimer: I work for ASSIMILATE, which
makes SCRATCH-CINE.)

Best,

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA


From wollinger at teleimage.com.br  Wed Feb  4 19:04:16 2009
From: wollinger at teleimage.com.br (wollinger at teleimage.com.br)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:04:16 -0200
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org><B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
	<7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
Message-ID: <20090204170416.dzdrfmzw0owcw0gs@www.cbmail.com.br>

I would suggest that. Using 709 will clip your shadows and highlights.


Ariel Wollinger
VFX/ Scanning and Recording Supervisor
Teleimage/ Casablanca - Brasil


From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb  4 21:57:43 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 23:57:43 +0200
Subject: [Tig] bug fix pending on wiki (Calendars)
Message-ID: <1277B06C-C61B-4960-B326-6540D594BD03@colorist.org>

the Calendars subpage on the TIG wiki has been disabled due to a  
security bug.
Thanks to Julius Friede, longtime TIGer for pointing it out to me.
it will return, sometime next week.

the Reels Ratings extension is without this problem so is still a part  
of the wiki code.
see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/RatingReels
--
Rob Lingelbach     tig admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb  4 22:07:21 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 00:07:21 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Fwd: In Brazil, TV is "essential" says a judge
References: <344A04EF-18FC-419E-AB5D-656BF29E5F6C@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <01DF6441-8A6B-428E-9FD6-758FF4BF04E5@colorist.org>

Ted Langdell sent me this:

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Ted Langdell <ted at tedlangdell.com>
> Date: February 4, 2009 10:37:21 PM GMT+02:00
> To: Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org>
> Subject: In Brazil, TV is "essential" says a judge
>
> Hi, Rob...
>
> You'll have some kind of reaction to this story:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090203/od_nm/us_tv_judge_1
>
> Ted


my reaction is ...

Well, you have to know Brasil like I do!  Big Brother Brasil is a  
National
Pastime!  (and it's a bit better than the US version, in terms of
pulchritude.)

and, lest I let a rant go untold,

I'll never forget my mom, in the 60s: we were passing, on the Long  
Island
Railroad, in the vicinity of Flushing, (what a name of a city) some  
banners
where was written "Save Free TV"  and "Stop Pay TV."

she was completely against the whole idea of having to pay a fee to  
watch
TV.  but then she was also a card-carrying communist.  (for which i  
forgive
her as the truth about Stalin was not then known.)

and, lest I let a rant go untold, I once was overcharged over the  
course of 2
years by AT&T for my long distance service to Brasil; I had a  
girlfriend there
and spent hours talking to her.  The bill was at one point 3kUS$ for  
one month.

When I called AT&T to ask why the horrendous charges, they asked if I  
had
heard about their other plans for residential customers.  I said no,  
how would I
have heard.  They said, through "our commercials on TV!"  I said, "but  
I don't
have a TV!"  and... the beginning of laughter was heard as I was put  
on hold..
I held on for 10 minutes before realizing i was in the absurd future.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From skiadcock at aol.com  Wed Feb  4 22:03:48 2009
From: skiadcock at aol.com (skiadcock at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:03:48 -0500
Subject: [Tig] House Passes Bill Pushing DTV Transition Date To June 12
In-Reply-To: <4989E1A1.9080409@optimus.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com><A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
	<4989E1A1.9080409@optimus.com>
Message-ID: <8CB552B96ECE5B4-BD4-1344@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com>

Just got this in an e-alert:


House Passes Bill Pushing DTV Transition Date To June 12


After heated debate by legislators Wednesday, and some 18 months of broadcasters, cable operators and the government drilling the Feb. 17 'hard' date into the hearts and minds of viewers, the House voted Wednesday to push the cut-off date for analog TV from Feb. 17 to June 12. 

Cheers.
Sharon Adcock





From ted at tedlangdell.com  Wed Feb  4 21:55:23 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:55:23 -0800
Subject: [Tig] OT-DTV switch delay gets House OK
Message-ID: <2D7E1C61-BE38-4612-8C8E-393DCBB61EA5@tedlangdell.com>

This will probably have little effect on the amount of HD programs  
passing through CC suites and colorists hands.  Hopefully no layoffs  
in post or more layoffs in broadcast areas as a result.

 From the NY Times:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress voted Wednesday to give consumers four  
more months to prepare for the upcoming transition from analog to  
digital television broadcasting.
The House voted 264-158 to postpone the shutdown of analog TV signals  
to June 12, to address growing concerns that too many Americans won't  
be ready in time for the Feb. 17 deadline that Congress had set three  
years ago. The Senate passed the measure unanimously last week and the  
bill now heads to President Barack Obama for his signature.

See more here:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/04/washington/AP-TEC-Digital-TV-Transition.html?hp

Ted

Ted Langdell
Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services
Marysville, CA
Main:   (530) 741-1212

tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative  
Services since 1974




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Wed Feb  4 23:16:46 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 17:16:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] OT-DTV switch delay gets House OK
In-Reply-To: <2D7E1C61-BE38-4612-8C8E-393DCBB61EA5@tedlangdell.com>
References: <2D7E1C61-BE38-4612-8C8E-393DCBB61EA5@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902041709380.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Ted Langdell wrote:
>
> From the NY Times:
> WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congress voted Wednesday to give consumers four more 
> months to prepare for the upcoming transition from analog to digital 
> television broadcasting.
> The House voted 264-158 to postpone the shutdown of analog TV signals to June 
> 12, to address growing concerns that too many Americans won't be ready in 
> time for the Feb. 17 deadline that Congress had set three years ago. The 
> Senate passed the measure unanimously last week and the bill now heads to 
> President Barack Obama for his signature.

Does this *require* broadcasters to keep the analog signal on until 
this date, or are they allowed to shut it off already?  I know that a 
few places in the US have already transitioned.

If I was a TV station paying the huge transmitter electric bill and 
all the other associated fees (especially if the digital antenna is at 
a different location than analog), I would turn it off ASAP and hire a 
few people at minimum wage to answer subsequent questions on the 
phone.  Displaying a fixed informational video on the analog channel 
for a week should do the trick.

It is unlikely that protracting the delay will improve the situation 
much since people behave like people and procrastenators 
procrastenate.  It would have been more worthy to tell people to save 
their receipts from a converter box purchase since they could recoup 
the cost with a coupon later.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com  Wed Feb  4 23:50:49 2009
From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:50:49 -0800
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <20090204170416.dzdrfmzw0owcw0gs@www.cbmail.com.br>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org><B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
	<7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
	<20090204170416.dzdrfmzw0owcw0gs@www.cbmail.com.br>
Message-ID: <C821055F-06DB-4D74-9037-ED22CAE39D62@monkeyswithchopstix.com>

Is everyone saying REDspace for the gammaCurve setting? There are two  
places where you can set REDspace and rec709: gammaCurve and colorSpace.

I am running tests with colorSpace at REDspace and gammaCurve set to  
rec709 as per Autodesk whitepaper. This is for 4:2:2 video haven't  
tried a "log" type image conversion.

Erik Hansen
Digital Utility
Modern VideoFilm


From richerling at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 00:43:28 2009
From: richerling at gmail.com (Ricardo H.)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 22:43:28 -0200
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
In-Reply-To: <C821055F-06DB-4D74-9037-ED22CAE39D62@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
References: <mailman.84.1233709754.11769.tig@colorist.org>
	<B8BF40FA-1789-4B5C-A63B-E3D982E04E44@orbitdigital.com>
	<A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A@mipost.com>
	<7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661A3BC677@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com>
	<20090204170416.dzdrfmzw0owcw0gs@www.cbmail.com.br>
	<C821055F-06DB-4D74-9037-ED22CAE39D62@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
Message-ID: <59806d300902041643l39d6a60fj7608f214d4e4b7c6@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all , and some one know how is the best workflow for work with final cut
and color 2k for movies and HDTV? And if I need 4k how to do?


Ricardo Herling


From mattwillisjones at gmail.com  Thu Feb  5 09:18:29 2009
From: mattwillisjones at gmail.com (Matt Willis-Jones)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:18:29 +0100
Subject: [Tig] not 'fixed in post'
Message-ID: <95aec4d80902050118s3814ff52x6aa43488f85ed8b6@mail.gmail.com>

Are any of you willing to admit allowing something to slip by which
> should have been brought to the director's attention and "fixed in
> post"?
>

absolutely.  (although in my experience, director's don't usually need these
things pointed out to them - thats producers)

I'm in this industry because of a love of the moving image and all that
makes it work.

And i will give my all for projects, always try to do the best i can.

But increasingly, as Craig's earlier post pointed out, nitwits apparently in
charge of production make decisions that end up costing a lot of time - time
you were meant to have had to comp their greenscreens / grade their show /
etc - time that is now lost as you have to spend it getting the project to
state where you can actually start work on it... not just having to convert
/ re-edit things but often actually making content (animations etc) that
those guys in the funky T shirts and lattes just thought would magically
appear.

add to this the extreme obnoxiousness of some clients and their refusal to
pay any more and my patience runs thin.

Sometimes i even take a sadistic glee in watching some crime against
filmmaking zip past repeatedly as the clients all congratulate themselves,
literally glowing in their own looping sh*t.

It is our responsibility not to bend to clients with impossible /
unscheduled demands. Not only do you have to look out for your own health
and well-being (absolutely no-one else cares about that) but we, as
individual operators and facilities, have to set the boundaries.

about 17 years ago,  a friend and I were mugged by some policeman on a train
in Senegal. The guide book said that this might happen, but that we must not
hand over any money as that just made it easier for them to do it to the
next person. Well - back then we didn't feel in a position to refuse the
demanding men who were in charge on that day, but now i have learnt.

matt willis-jones
trying to avoid the early grave of the unknown colourist / comper...


From rob at colorist.org  Thu Feb  5 09:52:50 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:52:50 +0200
Subject: [Tig] regarding RED workflow
Message-ID: <4CB6A4DB-5EFA-4632-BB1C-BEA79FF1E0A5@colorist.org>

there is a quantel-oriented workflow at this location that could be  
useful:

http://www.quantel.com/page.php?u=e68256ce263cb93869525d538398ea71

I'm not in any way affiliated with Quantel, am only posting this for  
informational
purposes.  Any other vendors who have additional information are  
welcome to
contact me.

--
Rob Lingelbach     TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From ken at flight4.org  Thu Feb  5 13:42:27 2009
From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:42:27 -0200
Subject: [Tig] Film Light now
Message-ID: <000601c98797$9718b4c0$6600a8c0@flight4>

Surprised that no one else mentioned the email from Film Light saying they
aren't going to NAB either.

Is anyone going?

Does sound like you will be able to party quite cheaply, with the hotel
rates as they are!

Ken

Ken Robinson
(from a very windy Patagonia!)




From bob at bluescreen.com  Thu Feb  5 17:03:35 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:03:35 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Film Light now
In-Reply-To: <000601c98797$9718b4c0$6600a8c0@flight4>
References: <000601c98797$9718b4c0$6600a8c0@flight4>
Message-ID: <006mo4hmrhofvj001jpss84oj5jsjhgmfn@4ax.com>

>Is anyone going (to NAB)?

>Does sound like you will be able to party quite cheaply, with the hotel
>rates as they are!

I'm going, I think (unless real paying work comes up).

I have a room for four nights at the Luxor for $89/night through the NAB. Even
with the outrageous Las Vegas tourist taxes, that's still quite a deal. Those
hotel people must REALLY be hurting.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From carl at stopp.se  Thu Feb  5 19:14:53 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:14:53 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Red in Resovle
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E811E@exchange.stopp.se>

Hi Micah

I'm a Resolve-Colorist.
I've been doing a lot of tests trying to find a good workflow for us to manage cients Red-projects, Without having to rely on a "DIT-house" or camera rental doing the R3D>DPX.
At first we got all our stuff from the DIT-house but we had problem almost everytime. Someone not using a Resolve will never understan fully the daVinci-world works.

First of all, as many other will say... there is a LOT of workflows, I think thats one of the biggest downsides (but also benefits) of RedOne.
To keep it cheap and OK-ish:
Let the client do the edit in FinalCut from the Proxys, after edit is aproved and locked let them do the relink to R3D and render out a HD uncompressed QuickTime.
You put the QT on your SAN, put it into the MediaPool. "Parse Pre Conform" with the EDL. Grade away. Render to DPX, Record to SR.
This is realy a compromice, espesialy since Resovle will read the 10bit QT BUT only as an 8bit.

Next step would be to let the client use apps like Crimson to convert an XML to a RedCine XML and to the DPX-render from Redcine in edit-order as one long sequence or as individual clips with handles.
Better, but since (as we all know) clients tend to fu*k up these kind of stuff.

The way I prefer doing it is:
Client edits in either Avid or FCP.
Sends me an EDL + alll the R3D's.
i load the edl into MonkeyExtract (witch is the only RedLine-app I know of that can take an EDL)
Inside Monkey I select the EDL, point it to the folder I put all the R3D's.
In the submeny, RenderSetting, I select size, file-format and add handles. In the ColorMeny, I chose "Use Default Values", no "RSX", Footage-Colorspace "RedSpace", Output Colorspace (Gamma) "RedLog"

The good thing with Monkey is that I can get a proper EDL that I can load into Resovle.
The problem with using a Avid / FCP EDL straight into Resolve from, let say, a Srtach/RedCine DPX-render. Is that the File-name and Folder-structure will NOT match how Resolve will match the reel-name in the edl to the media. Here's why:
An Avid EDL (without the new Red16 edl-plugin) will have a reelname of: A001_C00 (depending on the setting in edl-manager. An EDL from FCP will have reelname: A001C001

The dpx will be in a folder called "A001_C001" and have the name A001_C001_XYZ123.0090000.edp  The header will not have reel info from what I know.
In Resovle you can select "Enable Reel Number Support" and choose how it should figuer out the reel from either Header, File-name, MediaPool-folder or folder-name.
The normal way to extract the Reelname from the folder is: */%R/%D  that mean it takes the name of the folder were the clip is in. Witch in this case would be A001_C001_XYZ123. BUT the EDL isn't pointing to that is it...

Of you get an Avid edl saying A001_C00 then you can use some crazy wildcard string (or whatever you call it), something like this */%R???????????? meaning "use the file-name except the last 12digits (that would be 1_XYZ123.DPX, I don't think Resolve counts the framecount number as "digits" in this sence)

This will allow you to conform with the EDL with the folderstructure and naming you got.

If its a FCP-EDL then that wount work. We can't make a string to extract the filenames first 4digits, skip the 5th, then continue the digits number 6-9. Witch would have resulted in A001C001 (the frist 9, minus the _)
But here you can use this string: */%R??????????? that will give Resolve the Reelname: A001_C001, what you do now is upen up the EDl in TextEdit, search for "C0" and replace with "_C0" that will change every A001C001 to A001_C001 and the EDL will now work.


The good thing with Monkey is that it will output the loaded EDL with updated Reel-name to match the folder-structure you selected. Saving us so much hassle.

So to sum it up.
I use MonkeyExtract to export DPX in RedLog Gamma (RedSpace for colorspace, absolutly no RedSpace for the Gamma, that will make make the QT have the same Look/contrast as the QT-proxy)
Then load the new EDL into Resolve and Grade happily ever after.

After I render out as 10bit DPX in the same file-naming/folder-structure as it came in. So the guys in Online can conform the same way.
If it is a "One day, Single Camera"-shoot. then I can recode to SR in Source order (TK-tape).
If its dual camera or more the one day, and they used Time-Of-Day TC we will get duplicate TC and that will mess it up completely.
If you Need to go down to tape anyway. I once solved it by first recording day one, then a slate saying "day2" followed by those clips.

(by the way, I did a 4K job. Worked perfect. Stated by creating 2K-Proxys, and worked in Proxy-mode. Then when renderd it went back to 4K. Although I din't see ANY difference worth 4K for the Zooms compared to have created 2K dpx'es from the start. I was going down to SD in the end.)


Well, that how I do it.
Hope it gives you any help.
/carl




Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22



Message: 5
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:44:50 -0500
From: Micah Kirz <micah at mipost.com>
Subject: [Tig] RED Workflow
To: tig at colorist.org
Message-ID: <A264B7F9-D3C2-4EDB-9AB1-DF91B22C070A at mipost.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=US-ASCII;       delsp=yes;      format=flowed

Working on Vh1 commercial
Shot on 4K RED ( R3D )

Coloring On DaVinci Resolve

_____________



Has anyone come up with a decent workflow for RED to DPX files ???

For this Job
I had the Editorial finish there cuts and convert the Select Scenes
(.R3D files to .DPX )

Using RedCine setting of
4096x2048 DPX 10 Bit
REC.709 with a gamma of 2.2

Now I wish that the Time code would transfer over to the .DPX files,
But it didn't
and I wish there was a manual for REDCINE... But ... there isn't

Now this job is for a NTSC Delivery so I felt using 709 was an ok
choice...
But I am curious if using PD Log 685 or PD Log 985 output would have
been better choice or introduced more noise ?

I am trying to come up with a simple workflow that I can relay to my
clients so I will get the best possible image to work with....

any Suggestions or comments ?????
thanks
Micah






From carl at stopp.se  Thu Feb  5 20:11:19 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:11:19 +0100
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8124@exchange.stopp.se>

If you hear of anyone not showing at NAB. Continue this list: (if a company is on the list but ARE going, feel free to changes it and update us)

Digital Vision
Filmlight
Quantel
Red







From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com  Thu Feb  5 20:19:19 2009
From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:19:19 -0000
Subject: [Tig] SRW Bug?
Message-ID: <2B6B334914BD435A8431E0C84518B944@desktop>

Hi,
 
Just come across another SRW5000 and 5500 bug.
 
If the machine is set to Auto or EXT servo reference and the input video is
earlier than 2 lines or later than 62 lines (in SD so x64μS) then the
machine loses lock and the recording is useless.
 
If you force the machine reference to 'Input' all comes good (but the
machine is then non sync to its destination).
 
Removing the reference (or indeed PDRing the machine) does nothing
(apparently the internal SPG 'remembers' its timing if you depower)
 
Seems like several London post houses have come across this
 
Jeff
 


From rob at colorist.org  Thu Feb  5 20:02:46 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:02:46 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Film Light now
In-Reply-To: <006mo4hmrhofvj001jpss84oj5jsjhgmfn@4ax.com>
References: <000601c98797$9718b4c0$6600a8c0@flight4>
	<006mo4hmrhofvj001jpss84oj5jsjhgmfn@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <9D4F6320-3B02-4A39-92E4-0344A994288D@colorist.org>


On Feb 5, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote:

> I have a room for four nights at the Luxor for $89/night through the  
> NAB. Even
> with the outrageous Las Vegas tourist taxes, that's still quite a  
> deal. Those
> hotel people must REALLY be hurting.

you must not be a High-Roller Bob, or you'd get your room, drinks,  
etc. comped.

I'll never forget, NAB in about 1995, Las Vegas.  The President of  
Editel LA, Ralph
Horan, walks up to the gigantic dollar slot machine in Caesar's  
Palace.  He puts a
Susan B. Anthony dollar coin in.  He wins 75$.  first try, big win.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From carl at stopp.se  Thu Feb  5 20:38:27 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:38:27 +0100
Subject: [Tig] DIT vs DMT
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8125@exchange.stopp.se>

Hey
To update the boys on the new terms:

DIT
Digital Image Technician
A guy on set that takes care of (among other) RedOne. He/She Copies the Red-media, either CF / Drive, to at least to destinations. (like two USB-Lacie Drives)
Checks the material that everything is OK. No corrupted files.
Can check the lighting with the DoP (or whom ever) in a light-colorcorrector. can export stills for Grade-Reference or just to give to the client.
Also can export the material so that they can start the Offline the day after.
Sometimes "in charge" or the camera, meaning mostly that he/she takes the blame if the Red hangs.
Either aiming to be a DoP or maybe a Colorist.



DMT
Data Management Technician
A junior DIT, usually semi Clapper/loader (or what you call it, the one lowest in the hierarchy on the camera side).
Assist the DoP/FocusPuller but also takes each Red-media and backs it up to multiple destinations. Can use automated apps like "R3D Data manager" or "ShotPut Pro" that backups the stuff and also gets a verification of "copy OK". Does NOT do the trascode for offline, but drop the drive of at a Digital Lab, as if it was film. And the Lab does the deliverables.
Aims to become a DoP.



A DIT-house is a company that rents out DIT's with a bunch of equipment.
If they do it smart, they get the DIT to help out with the camera a bit, but focus on deliver proper backups, archives and deliverables.
If they do it dumb, they sy you need to have them on set because Red is so difficult. These companies will live for another year,
and when "shooting on Red" is a common/usual as any videoformat. They will disappear.



(Thats at least how I understand/see it.)
/Carl






From nigel at hadley.org.uk  Thu Feb  5 20:44:45 2009
From: nigel at hadley.org.uk (Nigel Hadley)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:44:45 +0000
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8124@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8124@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <498B4FBD.8030801@hadley.org.uk>

Carl Hello,

Please remove Digital Vision from the list. We have made no public 
announcements yet but I fully expect us to be there.

Regards

Nigel

Director of Training  


151 Wardour Street, London, W1F 8WE, UK
Tel +44 20 7734 8282  |  Fax +44 (0) 20 7292 6969
Mobile +44 (0) 783188 4224
www.digitalvision.se



Carl Skaff wrote:
> 2077 subscribers as of February 2009
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Thanks to Rick Pagliaroli and Bill Topazio for supporting the TIG.
>  ====
>
>
> If you hear of anyone not showing at NAB. Continue this list: (if a company is on the list but ARE going, feel free to changes it and update us)
>
> Digital Vision
> Filmlight
> Quantel
> Red
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>   



______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

From carl at stopp.se  Thu Feb  5 20:50:13 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:50:13 +0100
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009
In-Reply-To: <498B4FBD.8030801@hadley.org.uk>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8124@exchange.stopp.se>,
	<498B4FBD.8030801@hadley.org.uk>
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8129@exchange.stopp.se>

The list is getting smaller. Good direction.

> Filmlight
> Quantel
> Red



(if anyone wants to remove/add, just copy the list and change it, and reply direct to Tig)
To be more clear...
This is just the romours I've heard. No affiliation with anything or anyone.


/Carl



Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22
________________________________________
From: Nigel Hadley [nigel at hadley.org.uk]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 21:44
To: Carl Skaff
Cc: tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] NAB 2009

Carl Hello,

Please remove Digital Vision from the list. We have made no public
announcements yet but I fully expect us to be there.

Regards

Nigel

Director of Training


151 Wardour Street, London, W1F 8WE, UK
Tel +44 20 7734 8282  |  Fax +44 (0) 20 7292 6969
Mobile +44 (0) 783188 4224
www.digitalvision.se


From craig at optimus.com  Thu Feb  5 23:49:55 2009
From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:49:55 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Disney profit slides
In-Reply-To: <4989C14D.9030506@verizon.net>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902031641500.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<4989C14D.9030506@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <498B7B23.1030609@optimus.com>

So....

I would like to thank all of the old timers ( Like me ) on this list 
that thanked me privately for my sudden outburst. It tickles me to no 
end, knowing you guys are still lurking and paying attention... just 
waiting for something interesting to pop up from the noise....

Well, I DO love a good rant, as you all know.... and since my favorite 
online T-shirt Biz is going out of business, I thought I would post a 
link to one of the best Rants I've read in a long time... 

http://www.tshirthell.com/goodbye.php

Enjoy ... dear closet ranters....


CL



From rickpags at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 21:16:39 2009
From: rickpags at yahoo.com (wbpags)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:16:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] Color correct monitors
Message-ID: <71119.74452.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



  
     While researching a new monitor for the telecine (actually tape to tape) room I see that the only size for an LCD at this time is in the 24" range, give or take an inch either way. 25.5 for Panasonic, 23 for Barco, 24 for Sony. I'm lost as to why these companies cannot make a larger display format when the technology has been around for quite some time now. Because let's face it, size may not matter in a lot of areas in life but in the cc room, it's everything. We've pretty much ruled out going the way of Plasma but not totally if one is of better quality then what we've been used to already. I've seen some musings on this topic not too long ago on the tig but nothing concrete. 

 
  Thanks,
  Rick


      



From irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au  Thu Feb  5 22:09:30 2009
From: irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au (Ian Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:09:30 +1100
Subject: [Tig] SRW Bug?
In-Reply-To: <2B6B334914BD435A8431E0C84518B944@desktop>
References: <2B6B334914BD435A8431E0C84518B944@desktop>
Message-ID: <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF951619259BF475@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge>


With respect

System timing does not go away in the digital or indeed HD world.

You have some issues if you are 2 lines mistimed from any source to playback with respect to your [hopefully] phaselocked references.

Regards

Ian [I once worked in an analogue world] Richo

Sydney
Oz



From irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au  Fri Feb  6 00:39:48 2009
From: irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au (Ian Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:39:48 +1100
Subject: [Tig] Dav 2K Counter issue
Message-ID: <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF951619259BF4DB@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge>

Hi All

Hopefully this may save some angst.

We run Baselight with Spirit control and a 2K DaVinci....sharing the
Spirit as jobs require.

Both these devices control the Spirit,  addressing the Spirit via its IP
address.

We have found that if both devices are physically connected to the
Spirit, and the Baselight application is run up, the Davinci 2K
will exibit intermittent counter operation [at least with Dav V4.1.4 and
4.1.7]. All other functions are unaffected.

For DaVinci to count correctly the Baselight Ethernet must be physically
disconnected from the Spirit network.

Makes obvious sense now, but caused some head scratching and software
rollbacks/ rollforward at the time.

Regards
Ian Richo

PS. Usual disclaimers


Ian Richardson | Engineering, Sydney NSW.
CUTTING EDGE -  Brisbane, Sydney, Darwin
t: + 61 2 8332 5999 | f: + 61 2 8332 5959 
w: www.cuttingedge.com.au <http://www.cuttingedge.com.au/> 


From SKIADCOCK at aol.com  Fri Feb  6 00:40:28 2009
From: SKIADCOCK at aol.com (SKIADCOCK at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:40:28 EST
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009
Message-ID: <c9c.3f045fcc.36bce0fc@aol.com>

I missed the Red announcement.  What's their reason?  Presumably  things are 
going well for them, or do they think that they're doing so well they  don't 
need the show any longer?  Just curious.
 
Cheers.
Sharon Adcock
 


From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb  6 12:14:45 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:14:45 +0200
Subject: [Tig] demo next week in LA
Message-ID: <A53AF61A-D8D0-43D5-BAE3-7EF23C289857@colorist.org>

An announcement of a demo next week in LA of Rave2k and 3d Live has  
been posted to the wiki:
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Commercial_announcements
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From carl at stopp.se  Fri Feb  6 13:30:25 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:30:25 +0100
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009 Red not going
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8134@exchange.stopp.se>

Found on Reduser.net


-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
RED has decided to skip NAB 2009. We will hold our own RED DAY when we feel we are ready to present the new systems and when they are fully ready to showcase. Date and location will be announced in future.

A minor delay by a major part vendor will not mean much to the delivery schedules but would mean too many non-working prototypes at NAB... which we find unacceptable.

As usual, we will keep you posted on info as we can.

Jim
__________________
"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude.

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_



From owen at ywwg.com  Fri Feb  6 15:14:45 2009
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:14:45 -0500
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009
In-Reply-To: <c9c.3f045fcc.36bce0fc@aol.com>
References: <c9c.3f045fcc.36bce0fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1233933285.8324.2418.camel@ywwg>

On Thu, 2009-02-05 at 19:40 -0500, SKIADCOCK at aol.com wrote:
> I missed the Red announcement.  What's their reason?  Presumably  things are 
> going well for them, or do they think that they're doing so well they  don't 
> need the show any longer?  Just curious.
>  

RED said that they didn't want to go to NAB unless they had something
new to show, and their new products are still too early for that.

Owen




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb  6 17:20:08 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:20:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009
In-Reply-To: <1233933285.8324.2418.camel@ywwg>
References: <c9c.3f045fcc.36bce0fc@aol.com> <1233933285.8324.2418.camel@ywwg>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061119140.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Owen Williams wrote:
>
> RED said that they didn't want to go to NAB unless they had something
> new to show, and their new products are still too early for that.

It sounds like NAB will be a bit empty this year.  In good years 
vendors show up to market their existing products.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From martin-p at moving-picture.com  Fri Feb  6 17:00:25 2009
From: martin-p at moving-picture.com (Martin Parsons)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:00:25 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Color correct monitors
In-Reply-To: <71119.74452.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972D82E@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local>

> I'm lost as to why these companies cannot make a larger
> display format when the technology has been around for quite some time
> now.

I believe Sony were to show a larger (42 inch) version of their BVM-L230
at IBC 2008 but they could not reach the quality that the BVM brand name
required - or so the Sony salesman told me.

Barco are considering both a larger and smaller version of their
RHDM-2301 flat panel monitor.

Both of these use LEDs rather than CCFL backlights - the technology for
which hasn't been around as long as conventional CCFL monitors.

There are several other manufacturers that offer CCFL backlit monitors
with 10 bit panels at 37" and 47" sizes.

e.g. 

http://www.vutrix.com/displays_single.html


I'm sure there are other manufacturers that offer monitors in these
sizes.


Disclaimer: I don't work for or receive any remuneration from Vutrix. I
have not tested these larger monitors personally.

Martin Parsons
Head of Imaging
MPC
Soho, London
www.moving-picture.com

 
 




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb  6 17:44:32 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:44:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>

Today I read this article about how the analog cut-off slip will cost 
a broadcast station $64,000, and another station $60,000
(http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/02/02/daily52.html 
and 
http://www.mpnnow.com/news/x955247485/Area-TV-stations-weigh-costs-of-digital-delay).

It seems that Congress did not consider the plight of the broadcaster 
when it extended the cut-off date.  This unexpected cost (enough to 
pay a salary) hits the broadcasters during a down enconomy when 
advertisement income is also in severe decline.  Stations will likely 
have to reduce staff to make up the difference.

Who will re-imburse the broadcasters for this extended analog service?

On another front, it seems that Congress underfunded the converter box 
rebate program by at least 4 million TVs.  There are something like 
3.7 million rebate coupons currently on hold due to lack of funding.

The US government will benefit economically from the returned analog 
channels.  Perhaps Congress should include a refund check for the 
broadcasters who continue broadcasting on analog until the new cut-off 
date.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb  6 18:12:03 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:12:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Color correct monitors
In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972D82E@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local>
References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972D82E@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061205000.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Martin Parsons wrote:
>
>> I'm lost as to why these companies cannot make a larger
>> display format when the technology has been around for quite some time
>> now.

There are surely cases where suitably-calibrated consumer DLP 
rear-projection TVs can be used.  While DLP lacks sex-appeal due to 
not being a flat-panel technology, it does offer a stable image with 
excellent reproducibility as long as automatic modes in the firmware 
are disabled.  Recent models accept a 10 or 12-bit 1080P input via 
HDMI.  The price is also quite good, providing plenty of money left 
over to make sure that the set is extremely well calibrated.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From lundo at lundissimo.info  Fri Feb  6 19:15:15 2009
From: lundo at lundissimo.info (Robert Lund)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:15:15 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <498C8C43.2090509@lundissimo.info>

Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> Today I read this article about how the analog cut-off slip will cost 
> a broadcast station $64,000, and another station $60,000
> (http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/02/02/daily52.html 
> and 
> http://www.mpnnow.com/news/x955247485/Area-TV-stations-weigh-costs-of-digital-delay). 
>
But as stated in the article, "Stations can file a waiver allowing them 
to convert to digital this month, as initially planned". I'm not clear 
on why stations concerned about the cost of the delay wouldn't do that.
> It seems that Congress did not consider the plight of the broadcaster 
> when it extended the cut-off date.  
It seems that, as is so often the case, there are other forces at play:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/4g-war-conflict-of-interests-loom-behind-possible-dtv-delay.ars

RL



From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 20:00:17 2009
From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 20:00:17 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Color correct monitors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061205000.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <320685B244A3416A8842EDCDB633777B@Sprocket>

I'm sorry, if you buy a $1000 monitor you get a $1000 monitor ... You
don't spend another $1000 on a good probe and suddenly get a $40000
monitor

Graham Collett
Visible Sprockets Ltd
www.visible-sprockets.co.uk
Sprockets(telecine) Ltd
www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk


From bob at bluescreen.com  Fri Feb  6 22:34:51 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:34:51 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <7pdpo419r6qslgng5tmgntudeo3tkdlao0@4ax.com>

>Today I read this article about how the analog cut-off slip will cost 
>a broadcast station $64,000, and another station $60,000

>It seems that Congress did not consider the plight of the broadcaster 
>when it extended the cut-off date. 

>Who will re-imburse the broadcasters for this extended analog service?

Perhaps they could use some of the enormous amounts of money they've made over
the last five decades, when owning a station license was the equivalent of
having a hundred dollar bill printing press in the basement running 24 hours a
day.

Or perhaps they could have saved the equivalent of the $60K by not hiring PR
firms to whine to every press outlet and have articles placed bemoaning their
plight. Or they could have done $60K less worth of lobbying politicians to get
favorable tax and other laws passed for their benefit in any quarter at all in
the last 30 or 40 years.

And finally, there is nothing preventing any of them from turning off analog
on Feb.. 17th. They merely have to notify the FCC of their intent to do so,
and run some PSA's announcing their switchover will take place on the 17th.

But apparently, it's much more fun and profitable to whine for corporate
welfare in the current environment.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From cnoellert at gmail.com  Fri Feb  6 22:21:15 2009
From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:21:15 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Sad news...
Message-ID: <1C1ACAF4-38BB-494C-AF4F-6C1E42DE1ACF@gmail.com>

http://prolost.blogspot.com/2009/02/ten-years-of-orphanage.html

Best,
Chris

--
SEA LEVEL
VENICE | Visual Effects
Chris Noellert : VFX/Flame Artist
69 Market Street, Venice, CA 90291
p. 310.664.0900
c. 310.699.2151
www.sealevelvfx.com




From ted at tedlangdell.com  Fri Feb  6 20:54:29 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:54:29 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <8DCF87AC-61FB-4E69-BD16-D9DB790B9C1A@tedlangdell.com>

Who'll bail out the broadcasters?  Nobody.

This whole delay issue is about providing converter box coupons to  
folks with primary television service over the air.

There was funding available to provide coupons, but also a legal cap  
on how much could be dispensed at any one time.

Congress and the Bush admin. COULD have addressed the converter box  
coupon shortfall issue last summer or fall when the administrating  
agency warned that the cap was going to be reached.  Neither acted.

So here we are with a lot of energy, time and bandwidth being directed  
to situation that—IMO—ought to be much lower on the "fix it"  
priorities compared to other things going on today.

Some market have already switched. Most without big problems that  
attracted media attention. Hawaii switched and is working out some  
issues.

I'm in between the Sacramento (#20DMA) and Chico-Redding Markets (#130).

The Chico full-power and some low power -CA and -LP stations went  
digital in late December, and the Redding  ABC affiliate is the only  
station with both, as I recall.  No big hue and cry that's shown up in  
the media that I'm aware of.

Some mountainous, rural parts of the Chico-Redding market may depend  
on translators for Over the Air/Off the Air (aka OTA) reception and  
may be affected, but that's a relatively small percentage of viewers  
in the market.

At this point some Sacramento market stations are saying they'll keep  
analog going until the June date.

Either way, NBC affiliate KCRA has been advising that its digital  
signal (as currently broadcast) may not reach all current analog  
users, at least until it can do some antenna work that has been  
scheduled for June.

I gather that involves removing the current Channel 3 (analog) antenna  
and putting the Channel 35 (digital) antenna in the higher position  
the Ch. 3 antenna now occupies on the tower.

As far as "who's going to reimburse the stations for extending analog  
service?"

Nobody. It's a cost of doing business... and stations CAN opt to bail  
on analog at any time... as the Sinclair group still plans to do on  
Feb. 17, regardless of the extension.

Unless—as I understand the extension language— there's  government  
determination on a case by case or individual market-based that the  
early shift would create a hardship for viewers.

My hope is that networks and broadcasters will soon reject 4 x 3  
programming and spots, set their digital flags to make sure the  
converters show letterbox on 4 x 3 TV's.

That would help avoid content that's letterboxed within 4 x 3 signals  
from being reduced in size to fit the 4 x 3 aspect ratio instead of  
full-width of the HD or 16 x 9 frame.

Ted.

Ted Langdell
Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services
Marysville, CA
Main:   (530) 741-1212

tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative  
Services since 1974




From ramona at spectsoft.com  Fri Feb  6 23:54:23 2009
From: ramona at spectsoft.com (Ramona Howard)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:54:23 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Sad news...
In-Reply-To: <1C1ACAF4-38BB-494C-AF4F-6C1E42DE1ACF@gmail.com>
References: <1C1ACAF4-38BB-494C-AF4F-6C1E42DE1ACF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200902061554.23943.ramona@spectsoft.com>

Now that just sucks!

Wish them all the very best. True talent will always find a way to survive, 
and the O has lots of that.

Best of luck,
Ramona Howard
Not an Orphan, but they always made me feel like one of the family


From simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk  Sat Feb  7 15:39:00 2009
From: simon at rpsfilmimaging.co.uk (Simon Burley)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:39:00 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tig] Not "fixed in post"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902041411440.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902041411440.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <2161.195.149.48.251.1234021140.squirrel@mx.rpsfilmimaging.co.uk>


> How many of you have noticed something "odd" in the program content
> that you working on which would surely cause a complaint to the FCC if
> someone spotted it, yet you let it slide by without "fixing in post"?
...
> Are any of you willing to admit allowing something to slip by which
> should have been brought to the director's attention and "fixed in
> post"?

A BBC Natural History HD series that I'm working on now (removing RF noise
in aerial shots particularly, plus also some high-speed digital camera
artifacts) had lots of shots which required far more work and time than
the post budget allowed for.

So, sometimes, it is just not possible to do all the work required for a
totally flawless finish.

Simon



From glennchan at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 22:34:24 2009
From: glennchan at gmail.com (glenn chan)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:34:24 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Color correct monitors
Message-ID: <e4dd10a30902071434v444e453ldb2a3bb1071e25aa@mail.gmail.com>

There were manufacturers displaying larger models at NAB last year.

In alphabetical order:

Astro Design
Boland
Ikegami
eCinema
Panasonic (plasma only)
Sony (42" BVM-L; not shipping)
TVLogic

I did not visit these manufacturers at NAB and/or know little about them,
but they make broadcast monitors:
Flanders Scientific
GDB International
Plura Broadcast
Vutrix (I believe they offer larger monitors)

Some companies say they make "reference-grade" monitors... while I may
disagree with such a claim, I've included them on this list anyways for the
sake of completeness.  It's worth doing your research as some manufacturers
have some very interesting products, e.g. 4K displays (actually 3840x2160),
a LCD that does real black (better than field emission, better than CRT),
etc.  Different manufacturers were also showing field emission prototypes,
though I believe FET (the company that would make them) will only start off
with 26" panels.

Glenn Chan
colormancer.com
Toronto, Canada


From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 01:50:36 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 03:50:36 +0200
Subject: [Tig] credit request, Revolutionary Road
Message-ID: <92F6AE20-A15C-4D7F-9EA0-773A96971423@colorist.org>

Can someone advise, who did the DI grading on Revolutionary Road?

There is one scene, a long one involving a corridor, set at night or  
evening,
with exterior of house visibile through windows.  lighting somewhat  
surreal.
Was this done in post, or was R. Deakins relying on his significant  
talents
to do it in camera and lighting?

Was the film shot entirely on location, or were some interiors done in  
a studio
and some exteriors on back lot?

Thank you in advance for information.
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From alanr at bhphoto.com  Mon Feb  9 14:39:00 2009
From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:39:00 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Film Light now now NAB who's going?
In-Reply-To: <006mo4hmrhofvj001jpss84oj5jsjhgmfn@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1BE5BB@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local>

I'm going to be there.  Also, I paid $90 a night at the Luxor the two days after NAB ended last year (mini vacation for the wife and I.)  So now they're charging post NAB prices, desperation indeed.

alan

Alan Rosenfeld
The Studio at B&H


From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 15:38:55 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:38:55 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Calendar bugfix
Message-ID: <E6460EBF-526A-4C4A-9DB7-0C6D846C6C7E@colorist.org>

The TIG wiki Calendar code is fixed.   Please add your events as  
needed to
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach      TIG admin/founder
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 16:00:17 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:00:17 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Bill Hogan query (and SMPTE Hollywood)
Message-ID: <C46F3057-A9DE-4531-A7EC-94A6D2086E32@colorist.org>

We used to get updates and event info from Bill Hogan about SMPTE  
Hollywood Section meetings
here on the TIG.  If anyone is in contact with him, would they be so  
kind as to enquire as to this?

thank you.
--
Rob Lingelbach       TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org




From Colm.Forde at rte.ie  Mon Feb  9 18:18:47 2009
From: Colm.Forde at rte.ie (Forde Colm)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:18:47 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Advice on Buenos Aires Post Prod. Scene
Message-ID: <50DD6F7498D8544DAD1392735CF5BA8B52F6@CLUSTER-XCH1.RTEGROUP.IE>

Hi Folks,
I am planning on hitting the road soon for a South American adventure.  After a few months of travelling I will join some friends of mine in Buenos Aires, and try to settle there for a while.  
So, I was wondering if any of you out there would mind sharing your past or present experience of working within the post production scene in that city/country.
 
Any insights would be greatly appreciated, and treated with confidence.
Please reply off list.
 
Thanks in advance,
Colm Forde
Colourist.
 
RTE Film Archive
Dublin 
Rep. of Ireland 


From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 16:26:14 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:26:14 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Fwd: {TIG} credit request, Revolutionary Road
References: <610DFACF0C097F44B25A1642CE34B33E4B0801A8A8@ADSK-NAMSG-02.MGDADSK.autodesk.com>
Message-ID: <BF1F04A3-DEB8-4F7B-9E95-28BAA27A9CB0@colorist.org>

posted by permission of the author.  thanks Stephane.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Stephane Labrie <stephane.labrie at autodesk.com>
> Date: February 9, 2009 1:45:37 PM GMT+02:00
> To: "rob at colorist.org" <rob at colorist.org>
> Subject: re: {TIG} credit request, Revolutionary Road
>
> Anyway, as I found on IMDB.org, the DI was done at Efilm by colorist  
> Michael Hatzer on one of their Eworks systems, based on Autodesk  
> Lustre technology.
>
> I didn’t see the movie yet but your post teased me: I’ll see it this  
> week.
>
> Take care.
>

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From owen at ywwg.com  Mon Feb  9 17:44:39 2009
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:44:39 -0500
Subject: [Tig] (newbie) whitepoint troubles
Message-ID: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>

I'm still new to color correction, having two years and a few dozen
hours of cable TV docs under my belt.  In that time, I've always used
one monitor, my client's old Sony PVM-20L5.  I recently set up my own
color correction suite, and got a new monitor which I had calibrated.

To me, it looks noticeably red, so I did a lot of tests and discovered
that, in fact, the old Sony I've been using all this time is the one
that's mis-calibrated.  Its white point is reading on my el cheapo meter
as .307, .313 instead of Rec 709 standard .313, .329.  The clients I
work for are not particularly concerned with proper calibration -- in
six years I don't think the monitor has ever been touched by an
engineer.

Now I'm staring at footage on my new, correct monitor, trying to make it
look right based on what I'm seeing in the scopes.  In one particular
case there's a patch of sky that should be greenish blue.  But my eyes
want to see pink, and refuse to see anything else.

Are there any exercises I can do to retrain my brain to see the correct
hues, or do I just have to slog it out and constantly double-check my
scopes and eye-dropper to make sure I'm doing the right thing?  I also
have the evil temptation to brute-force my monitor to look like how I'm
used to seeing it, and just continuing to correct with the wrong white
point.

cheers,
Owen Williams
-- 
Online Editor / Colorist
Rockhopper Post Production
www.rockhopperpost.com
617.669.3020

linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/owengwilliams
reel    : http://www.vimeo.com/2076321 (password: 'demo')
imdb    : http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1741110/




From Richard.Antley at DigitalVision.se  Mon Feb  9 18:01:27 2009
From: Richard.Antley at DigitalVision.se (Richard Antley)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 10:01:27 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Bill Hogan query (and SMPTE Hollywood)
In-Reply-To: <C46F3057-A9DE-4531-A7EC-94A6D2086E32@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <C5B5AF77.1401%Richard.Antley@DigitalVision.se>

Hi Rob,

I dropped a note to Paul Chapman (SMPTE Hollywood Section Chair) to let him
know you would be interested in seeing notices etc. cross-posted to TIG.

Regards,
-- 
Richard Antley     
Sales Manager ­ Americas
4605 Lankershim Blvd., Suite 700
North Hollywood, CA 91602 USA
http://www.digitalvision.se/
Office +1 818 769 8111
Mobile +1 818 294 1707
Richard.Antley at DigitalVision.se


From jfmann at optimum.net  Mon Feb  9 18:35:23 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 13:35:23 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Bill Hogan query (and SMPTE Hollywood)
In-Reply-To: <C46F3057-A9DE-4531-A7EC-94A6D2086E32@colorist.org>
References: <C46F3057-A9DE-4531-A7EC-94A6D2086E32@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <001501c98ae5$2dff4de0$89fde9a0$@net>

I do not know where Bill Hogan is, but I posted the HOLLYWOOD SECTION MEETING On the TIG calendar. 
See:
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

Jim

Jim Mann
Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist 
[ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK
100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10013
T 212 894 4000
C 516-250-0909
F 212 941 0439
http://www.postworks.com
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann

Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.











From roblingelbach at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 19:22:33 2009
From: roblingelbach at gmail.com (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 21:22:33 +0200
Subject: [Tig] (newbie) whitepoint troubles
In-Reply-To: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
References: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
Message-ID: <86565A0D-9162-45BC-9F84-882C3A9FFF59@gmail.com>


On Feb 9, 2009, at 7:44 PM, Owen Williams wrote:

>
> Are there any exercises I can do to retrain my brain to see the  
> correct
> hues, or do I just have to slog it out and constantly double-check my
> scopes and eye-dropper to make sure I'm doing the right thing?

what is your environment Owen?  do you perchance have a D65 backlight,  
some distance
away from the monitor, with some texture for eye relief, ideally at  
18% gray?  that would
be best.   then you can reference the whites and grayscale in a way  
that will orient your
vision.

--
Rob Lingelbach
roblingelbach at gmail.com







From pchapman at fotokem.com  Mon Feb  9 19:37:27 2009
From: pchapman at fotokem.com (Paul Chapman)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:37:27 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Bill Hogan query (and SMPTE Hollywood)
In-Reply-To: <001501c98ae5$2dff4de0$89fde9a0$@net>
Message-ID: <C5B5C5F7.EC38%pchapman@fotokem.com>

Thanks Jim.

I had already replied privately to Rob, and was going to do this but you
beat me to it!

The next Hollywood Section meeting is on Feb 17, a date that WAS going to
live in infamy!. Now its just any other Tuesday.

"Remembering Analog Television", more details are on our web site
www.hsmpte.org

The meeting starts at 6:30pm with a social hour. It is at the Linwood Dunn
theater, located at 1313 N. Vine St in Hollywood, opposite the Post Group.
All are welcome.

Paul Chapman
Section Chair, SMPTE Hollywood.






From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 19:34:43 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 21:34:43 +0200
Subject: [Tig] TIG destination hosts map (sorry NZ)
Message-ID: <4D3F9339-988A-4BE1-8D66-CD3F52E89323@colorist.org>

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Photo_albums  and click on

googlemaps_TIG_targeted_hosts     toward the bottom before the Festa  
Tree

it shows a rough layout, albeit at a satellite/hybrid representation,  
of the host
locations to which the TIG postings were sent a few minutes ago.
Sorry about that NZ and eastern australia :(  if requested I'll move  
the map over
to lose LA

--
Rob Lingelbach     TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 19:50:39 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:50:39 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Color correct monitors
In-Reply-To: <71119.74452.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <71119.74452.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <738E5723-8081-425C-8ACA-0EBD2D7C6FDC@earthlink.net>


On Feb 5, 2009, at 1:16 PM, wbpags wrote:
>      While researching a new monitor for the telecine (actually  
> tape to tape) room I see that the only size for an LCD at this time  
> is in the 24" range, give or take an inch either way. 25.5 for  
> Panasonic, 23 for Barco, 24 for Sony. I'm lost as to why these  
> companies cannot make a larger display format when the technology  
> has been around for quite some time now.

The answer is part marketing, and part technical.

The marketing angle is that they make the 24" size because it has  
been one of the most common sizes
for monitoring in the Sony line.  They want to replace that, so they  
make the same size.

The technical angle is that the larger panels are more unstable in  
performance.  Not so much
as a consumer would see, but measurements show  significant changes  
over short time cycles.
(Plasmas in particular vary a lot with operating temperature).    
Making a reference grade
large panel is not as easy as making the small ones.

Jim Houston
Starwatcher Digital




From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 19:54:48 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:54:48 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Bill Hogan query (and SMPTE Hollywood)
In-Reply-To: <C46F3057-A9DE-4531-A7EC-94A6D2086E32@colorist.org>
References: <C46F3057-A9DE-4531-A7EC-94A6D2086E32@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <7B49F950-363D-4AB1-B953-57B3F833E9AD@earthlink.net>

Well Bill actually got a rather demanding job.. so he is perhaps  
occupied more right now.

Paul has jumped in to answer.

Jim Houston


On Feb 9, 2009, at 8:00 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> We used to get updates and event info from Bill Hogan about SMPTE  
> Hollywood Section meetings
> here on the TIG.  If anyone is in contact with him, would they be  
> so kind as to enquire as to this?
>



From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 20:12:49 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:12:49 -0800
Subject: [Tig] (newbie) whitepoint troubles
In-Reply-To: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
References: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
Message-ID: <FD6AF331-FAE8-4505-8C81-4E3AA3DC986E@earthlink.net>


On Feb 9, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Owen Williams wrote:

> and got a new monitor which I had calibrated.
>
> To me, it looks noticeably red,

You don't mention what kind of monitor you bought, but I will assume
that it is an LCD.

If so, one of the differences is that many LCDs have a very spiky
spectrum (more so than the doped red of old CRTs).  Individuals
see colors that are very spikey differently since there is variation
from one set of eyeballs to another.  It is possible that even if
you had the monitors set to the same white point by the meter
that they would look different to you.

> my el cheapo meter
> as .307, .313 instead of Rec 709 standard .313, .329.

cheapo color meters (colorimeters) that have been designed for rec709  
usage are
usually pretty good.  You would want to make sure though that you are  
using one
designed for monitors, not a general point and shoot, because the  
refresh rates
and spectrum could cause measurement errors in a non-monitor  
colorimeter.


> Are there any exercises I can do to retrain my brain to see the  
> correct
> hues,

Not exactly.   White point adaptation of the eye is the key and  
happens automatically.
But you can help it along.   Having a D65 light source can sometimes  
help
adjust to what the 'normal' white should be.  Don't just look at a  
white image
on the monitor.  Use several images each of which have substantial  
white in
them but have warm to cool timings. (so the whites look different to  
you on
your monitor).  If all cases still appear pinkish, another cheat is  
to use
a tungsten backlight to the monitor (the surround brightness should  
be around
10% of the monitor)   and to change the bezel and surround
of the monitor so that is a little warmer grey.  This should make the  
eye
see the monitor as a little cooler than the surround and the 'pink' feel
may go away.


> I also
> have the evil temptation to brute-force my monitor to look like how  
> I'm
> used to seeing it, and just continuing to correct with the wrong white
> point.

Yes, that is Evil.

Jim Houston
Starwatcher Digital



From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 20:06:47 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:06:47 +0200
Subject: [Tig] added: europe zoomed in, USA zoomed
Message-ID: <EB58D5DF-FCFE-437C-96C8-B44CF207CE83@colorist.org>

see http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Photo_albums

for additional entries on a zoomed-in Europe-centric map of TIG
destinations and on a zoomed-in USA-centric map of TIG destinations.

I didn't see any NZ hosts so ...  there must not be any TIG  
subscribers there.
please advise if I'm in error.  the GeoIP database I'm using could be  
slightly
out-of-date, it's current as of about a month ago.

--
Rob Lingelbach   TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 20:24:26 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:24:26 +0200
Subject: [Tig] added: europe zoomed in, USA zoomed
In-Reply-To: <EB58D5DF-FCFE-437C-96C8-B44CF207CE83@colorist.org>
References: <EB58D5DF-FCFE-437C-96C8-B44CF207CE83@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <BEDB39F4-1F50-4FD3-9DFB-67E7B5E86E7B@colorist.org>


On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> for additional entries on a zoomed-in Europe-centric map of TIG
> destinations and on a zoomed-in USA-centric map of TIG destinations.

correction on NZ and Eastern Australia: new zoomed-in (to the extent
possible) are on the photo albums page at

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Photo_albums

--
Rob Lingelbach          TIG admin.founder
roblingelbach at gmail.com





From owen at ywwg.com  Mon Feb  9 20:32:28 2009
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 15:32:28 -0500
Subject: [Tig] (newbie) whitepoint troubles
In-Reply-To: <FD6AF331-FAE8-4505-8C81-4E3AA3DC986E@earthlink.net>
References: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
	<FD6AF331-FAE8-4505-8C81-4E3AA3DC986E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1234211548.14673.360.camel@ywwg>

On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 12:12 -0800, Jim Houston wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Owen Williams wrote:

> You don't mention what kind of monitor you bought, but I will assume
> that it is an LCD.

This is an HP Dreamcolor, which, yes, is a cheap way to go, but I'm just
starting out and that's what fit in my budget.  And from what I've seen
of it so far, it's a very nice monitor.  I prefer it to the 24"
Panasonic LCD that I've used for grading on occasion -- none of the
banding and better black level.

> > my el cheapo meter
> > as .307, .313 instead of Rec 709 standard .313, .329.
> 
> cheapo color meters (colorimeters) that have been designed for rec709  
> usage are
> usually pretty good. 

For calibration I used the HP colorimeter and their own software, but
for spot-checking I have a spyder2 which I can use under linux.  

> 
> Not exactly.   White point adaptation of the eye is the key and  
> happens automatically.
> But you can help it along.   Having a D65 light source can sometimes  
> help

Where should I go to buy a D65 light source?  I will probably have to
order one online from somewhere.


> Use several images each of which have substantial  
> white in
> them but have warm to cool timings. (so the whites look different to  
> you on
> your monitor).  If all cases still appear pinkish, another cheat is  
> to use
> a tungsten backlight to the monitor (the surround brightness should  
> be around
> 10% of the monitor)   and to change the bezel and surround
> of the monitor so that is a little warmer grey.  This should make the  
> eye
> see the monitor as a little cooler than the surround and the 'pink' feel
> may go away.

I will give this a shot.

> Yes, that is Evil.

as I suspected.

Thanks for the advice,
owen




From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 20:59:32 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:59:32 +0200
Subject: [Tig] draw application on TIG wiki
Message-ID: <9E6219E8-3C4B-4991-8774-714C0C18C8F1@colorist.org>

anyone who wants to play with the drawing applet on the TIG wiki, need  
only go to

-- http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TODO
--and sign in with a wiki username (if you don't remember yours, just  
create a new one)
--Then, draw to your heart's content:  Click [Edit] on the draw test,  
and draw away.

the Java applet is self-explanatory, hopefully, and is fairly full- 
featured.

whatever drawing you create, can be added to any wiki page, and if any  
trouble occurs, please
contact me so I can (in the case of a page locked due to botnets)  
unlock the page for you, or,
in most cases, with a wiki username you can just while away your time  
creating diagrams,
sketches, whatever.

Rob	
--
Rob Lingelbach  TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From roblingelbach at gmail.com  Mon Feb  9 21:02:17 2009
From: roblingelbach at gmail.com (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 23:02:17 +0200
Subject: [Tig] (newbie) whitepoint troubles
In-Reply-To: <1234211548.14673.360.camel@ywwg>
References: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
	<FD6AF331-FAE8-4505-8C81-4E3AA3DC986E@earthlink.net>
	<1234211548.14673.360.camel@ywwg>
Message-ID: <069281FA-9DD0-4499-84BB-6EB6B91AC9E3@gmail.com>


On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:32 PM, Owen Williams wrote:
>
> This is an HP Dreamcolor, which, yes, is a cheap way to go, but I'm  
> just


what about motion artifacts Owen- do you see any?

--
Rob Lingelbach
roblingelbach at gmail.com







From owen at ywwg.com  Mon Feb  9 21:30:28 2009
From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:30:28 -0500
Subject: [Tig] (newbie) whitepoint troubles
In-Reply-To: <069281FA-9DD0-4499-84BB-6EB6B91AC9E3@gmail.com>
References: <1234201479.14673.162.camel@ywwg>
	<FD6AF331-FAE8-4505-8C81-4E3AA3DC986E@earthlink.net>
	<1234211548.14673.360.camel@ywwg>
	<069281FA-9DD0-4499-84BB-6EB6B91AC9E3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1234215028.14673.397.camel@ywwg>

On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 23:02 +0200, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:32 PM, Owen Williams wrote:
> >
> > This is an HP Dreamcolor, which, yes, is a cheap way to go, but I'm  
> > just
> 
> 
> what about motion artifacts Owen- do you see any?

I haven't noticed any objectionable ghosting or smearing in motion, and
although it has an "Overdrive" feature it's turned off by default.

That said, this monitor is really not designed for video, as I have
found out.  It doesn't have HDSDI (which everyone knows), doesn't like
interlaced video, and doesn't understand non-square pixels (so 720x486
SD is displayed at 3:2).  I feel like some of these issues could be
addressed with a firmware update.

I think it's safe to say that if I had the money to get a proper grading
monitor ($6K+), I'd do that.  I would still happily keep the dreamcolor
as one of my mac monitors, though.  It is clearly designed to be a
desktop monitor for a 2D or 3D artist, which is exactly what their press
materials say it is.

Owen




From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb  9 22:32:21 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:32:21 +0200
Subject: [Tig] slower frame rates (video)
Message-ID: <2C002E8E-C55C-4FD7-BAAA-A70F9F6A302A@colorist.org>

a surprising result of slower video frame rates in features- like 20-
+  but fewer than 30 fps, in films that are presented on video via
certain web media channels - is
their return to the evocative nature of film itself, in removing
oneself from reality, and imposing a distance betwen the motion and
the viewer.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From Mike.Whipple at Technicolor.com  Tue Feb 10 19:54:00 2009
From: Mike.Whipple at Technicolor.com (Whipple Mike)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:54:00 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Differences between Cable and Satellite network Broadcasts?
Message-ID: <7622907D1293E94287DBC91070ADAC893D4785@nyclsmail01.am.thmulti.com>

I have a client who is concerned about how there shows are appearing on
different Cable and Satellite networks.  It seems to them that the West
Coast terrestrial and Cable broadcasts are correct, along with the East
Coast terrestrial broadcasts.  Their issues are that the Dish, Time
Warner, Comcast, and RCN broadcast are dark and have a hue difference.

I am hoping that someone with access to a cable head end may have some
input as to what would cause these differences.  Are the color and image
tweaks done when the broadcast is re-encoded for Cable/Sat distribution?

 

 

Regards,

Mr. whip 

 

Michael P. Whipple

p. 212.609.9448

e. mike.whipple at technicolor.com <mailto:mike.whipple at technicolor.com> 

Technicolor NY

110 Leroy Street

New York, NY 10014


From jdegn at thepostlounge.com  Tue Feb 10 22:19:26 2009
From: jdegn at thepostlounge.com (Jan Degn)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:19:26 +1100
Subject: [Tig] de-interlace or not
In-Reply-To: 1234215028.14673.397.camel@ywwg
Message-ID: <20090210221926.2a77df3b@mail.thepostlounge.com>

Hi guys,
I'm doing a show that is shot 50i hd, it is  going to be converted to ntsc at some point later. Now the question is  whether anyone has good arguments for or against doing the ntsc  conversion from an interlaced or de-interlaced master?
I would (for look and feel purposes) prefer to de-interlace the whole deal but worry about the ntsc conversion afterwards.
thanks in advance
Jan degn

From TLianza at xrite.com  Wed Feb 11 01:10:46 2009
From: TLianza at xrite.com (Thomas Lianza)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:10:46 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>

Hi to all,

I thought that I would clear up some misconceptions about the HP
Dreamcolor Display.  I spent a long time with team working on that
display to help develop the mechanism for calibration and understanding
the pipeline.  The Dreamcolor has a very wide gamut RGB LED backlight.
The display spectral characteristics are very different than a standard
LCD or CRT.  The spectral characteristics are very smooth, there is very
little, if any structure in the bands of interest.   The gamut is
primarily attained by shifting the dominant wavelength of the green down
from 550nm.  Depending upon the particular bin of led used, this can
range anywhere from 525nm to 535nm.  The shift to a shorter dominant
wavelength renders the use most colorimeters useless.  As a matter of
fact, most spectral devices can have a significant error.  The problem
lies in the fact that the leading edge of the green LED is rising along
the leading edge of the y-bar color matching function.   Because these
two functions are multiplied and  then integrated, small errors compound
very quickly.  Two spectral devices with slightly different bandwidths
can report very significant differences in chromaticity.  There is very
little research into the nature of observer metamerism due to this
shift, but given the high degree of lack of inter-instrument agreement,
and the fact that the color matching functions are arrived at from an
average set of data, we can assume that there is going to be some
effect.  It is highly likely that two whites on two different display
technologies that measure exactly the same, will not appear the same.

The Dreamcolor display has a matrix shaper pipeline and the non-neutral
data that is displayed is a mixture of the three primaries.  For
primaries that are within the gamut, one of the other primaries is
mixed to arrive at the correct color space.  For colorspaces such as
Rec709, a full scale "red" will in fact be a mixture of the red and
small amount of blue or green.  This pipe line allows for very rapid
change of color spaces.  It is an excellent choice for someone who needs
to see how other display technologies will effect an image in a fixed
colorspace.  One thing that we did not do, which we should consider in a
later iteration is to build a display cloning feature, which would allow
the Dreamcolor software to mimic the response of another display
technology, by capturing the other display's response and programming it
into the dreamcolor display.  It's all a matter of time, money and
demand from the customer base. 

Regards to all 


Tom Lianza
Director R&D Video & Motion Picture tech.
X-Rite, Incorporated
200 Ames Pond Drive, Suite 202  
Tewksbury MA 01876
Main Office Phone: US +1 978-656-6100   Fax:  +1 978-851-6697
 



From gregbarrett74 at googlemail.com  Wed Feb 11 08:59:46 2009
From: gregbarrett74 at googlemail.com (gregbarrett74)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:59:46 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Deluxe Digital London closes DI Department
Message-ID: <c6f4dfcd0902110059w3595dfbdy159b48ff68ac7a54@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

As some of you already know Deluxe Digital London has recently shut down its
entire DI facility and pulled out of the DI market in London altogether with
immediate effect. This includes both the theatre and facilities in Dering
Street, and the Midnight Transfer DI facilities in Wardour Street. Thus,
after 11 wonderful and fulfilling years at both Midnight Transfer and
Deluxe, I will be leaving at the end of this week to move on to the next
exciting opportunity that awaits.

I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank all of you for your support
and company over these past 11 years, and to say that I'm hugely looking
forward to working with you all again in the near future.

Please use my googlemail address in all future correspondence.

Many many thanks.

Cheers,

Greg

-- 
Greg Barrett

+44 7799 060 848
gregbarrett74 at googlemail.com


From RCarroll at cine-tal.com  Wed Feb 11 13:04:10 2009
From: RCarroll at cine-tal.com (Rob Carroll)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:04:10 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>
References: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>
	<93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>
Message-ID: <912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D86A512@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc>

At Cine-tal we have tested the Davio and cineSpace products with the
DreamColor monitor emulating other display systems such as film stock,
Plasma, iPod's etc etc. All using a full 10 bit HD-SDI pipeline into the
DreamColor. In these cases we run the DreamColor in full gamut mode and
use 65 point 3d LUTs in the Davio for calibration and emulation of other
display profiles. The results are pretty compelling.

-Rob Carroll
Cine-tal Systems, Inc.



From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 11 19:32:11 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:32:11 +0200
Subject: [Tig] thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
Message-ID: <BE0ACB6C-D919-491C-9CD4-07DD52A22634@colorist.org>

Something I've always wondered about.

why is it that thin negative, i.e. underexposed, tends to pick up
more dirt than properly exposed?

I don't think it's a function of just seeing more dirt in darker images,
there's something about that thinness that either creates more static
charge, or.... ?


--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org




From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Wed Feb 11 21:05:11 2009
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:05:11 -0700
Subject: [Tig] thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <BE0ACB6C-D919-491C-9CD4-07DD52A22634@colorist.org>
References: <BE0ACB6C-D919-491C-9CD4-07DD52A22634@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <64970B2D-5E75-4948-BDE5-371277BC3507@prestodigital.ca>

>
> why is it that thin negative, i.e. underexposed, tends to pick up
> more dirt than properly exposed?
>
>

Underexposed neg is a lot more transparent, so any surface  
contamination is going to be more apparent, blocking more relative  
light transmission than a nice thick dye layer.
Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca





From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 11 21:27:09 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 23:27:09 +0200
Subject: [Tig] thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <64970B2D-5E75-4948-BDE5-371277BC3507@prestodigital.ca>
References: <BE0ACB6C-D919-491C-9CD4-07DD52A22634@colorist.org>
	<64970B2D-5E75-4948-BDE5-371277BC3507@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <B16A7F72-E528-484A-B8F9-9054A18BFA56@colorist.org>


On Feb 11, 2009, at 11:05 PM, Joe Owens wrote:

> Underexposed neg is a lot more transparent, so any surface  
> contamination is going to be more apparent, blocking more relative  
> light transmission than a nice thick dye layer.

is that all there is to it? I think there seems to be something more,  
a certain propensity, according to the density,
for neg dirt to be more apparent.  but perhaps you're right, this is  
all there is to it.


--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net  Wed Feb 11 21:46:20 2009
From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:46:20 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D86A512@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc>
References: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>
	<912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D86A512@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc>
Message-ID: <4993472C.6000009@free.fr>

...
>  All using a full 10 bit HD-SDI pipeline into the
> DreamColor. 
...

Hey Rob,
how do you get the 10bit in the Dreamcolor? Is it thru Dual Link DVI?

Thanks,
Cedric
www.workflowers.net
pipelines&workflows
La Madeleine, FR



From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 11 21:51:05 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 23:51:05 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <4993472C.6000009@free.fr>
References: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>
	<912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D86A512@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc>
	<4993472C.6000009@free.fr>
Message-ID: <53724E01-58B0-4E21-A38B-C63C0B4A60CD@colorist.org>

sorry Cedrc, that wasn't from me

On Feb 11, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Cedric Lejeune wrote:

> ...
>> All using a full 10 bit HD-SDI pipeline into the
>> DreamColor.
> ...
>
> Hey Rob,
> how do you get the 10bit in the Dreamcolor? Is it thru Dual Link DVI?

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From hxpro at cinesite.co.uk  Thu Feb 12 09:42:41 2009
From: hxpro at cinesite.co.uk (Kevin Wheatley)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:42:41 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <53724E01-58B0-4E21-A38B-C63C0B4A60CD@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>	<912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D86A512@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc>	<4993472C.6000009@free.fr>
	<53724E01-58B0-4E21-A38B-C63C0B4A60CD@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <4993EF11.2080403@cinesite.co.uk>

Rob Lingelbach wrote:
> sorry Cedrc, that wasn't from me
> 
> On Feb 11, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Cedric Lejeune wrote:
>> how do you get the 10bit in the Dreamcolor? Is it thru Dual Link DVI?

it has a display port interface on it which can do 10 bit input.

Kevin

-- 
| Kevin Wheatley, Cinesite (Europe) Ltd | Nobody thinks this      |
| Senior Technology                     | My employer for certain |
| And Network Systems Architect         | Not even myself         |
_________________________________________________________________________
Cinesite (Europe) Limited is a company registered in England and Wales
with company number 2820389.  VAT Registration: 630 5446 60
Registered Office: HemelOne, Boundary Way, Hemel Hempstead, Herts HP2 7YU



From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Thu Feb 12 12:44:26 2009
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 07:44:26 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
Message-ID: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>

Joe Owens is just about right on the nail. 
If you have a thin negative then the grade will tend to increase the
contrast to "stretch" the density range of the exposure to fill the desired
viewing density range. 
Dust & Scratches however will be a constant, regardless of exposure,
therefore you are stretching them as well, so they will look more dominant.

Also bear in mind that a thin negative has only had the LARGEST grains
exposed, so the stretch will also make the image look more grainy. 
I remember it was always recommended to over expose slightly for telecine
transfer as this helped by masking the big grains by the smaller ones.  

Film is simple!  4 photons to expose one grain, therefore the larger the
grain the more likely it is to be exposed!  
And the range size of grains tends to determine, the "bit depth of film! 

Cheers

Peter



From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net  Thu Feb 12 13:12:59 2009
From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:12:59 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <4993EF11.2080403@cinesite.co.uk>
References: <mailman.170.1234295836.11769.tig@colorist.org>	<93C7DAF04E6FE649A8FA3F729629461B029E5F18@XRMAIL.XRITE.COM>	<912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D86A512@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc>	<4993472C.6000009@free.fr>
	<53724E01-58B0-4E21-A38B-C63C0B4A60CD@colorist.org>
	<4993EF11.2080403@cinesite.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4994205B.7080406@workflowers.net>

Kevin Wheatley:
>>> how do you get the 10bit in the Dreamcolor? Is it thru Dual Link DVI?
>>>       
>
> it has a display port interface on it which can do 10 bit input.
>   
Yes, but from what I see there is no display port on the DAVIO, is the 
Dreamcolor able to do 10 bit thru DL DVI, or using a HDMI to Display 
Port converter? I spent some time googling and can't find the info.

Thanks,
Cedric Lejeune
www.workflowers.net
pipelines&workflows
La Madeleine, France


From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk  Thu Feb 12 14:11:15 2009
From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:11:15 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <mailman.196.1234444428.11769.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.196.1234444428.11769.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <15740.10.44.0.4.1234447875.squirrel@alto.filmlight.ltd.uk>

Hi.

Tom L gives a pretty good summary of the shifts he sees in the Dreamcolor
white. Almost everyone sees the Sony LCD white as orange too, so this is
not just limited to one sort of display.

This shift in white is not because the spot meter is broken, or we are old
and the lenses in our eyes are going yellow - though these are problems in
themselves. I think this shift comes from the CIE standard observer model.

This standard observer model was first put forward in 1931, but it is
based on earlier luminance work in the 1920's. You might suppose something
that old is either right (because it has survived this long) or that it is
hopelessly out of data (same reason). In fact it works, to a point, well
enough to make to hardly worth swapping out the 1931 LMS sensitometry for
newer functions such as the Stockman & Sharp primaries. You can get
slightly better sensitometry, but you are incompatible with everyone else.
So, by and large everyone makes instruments fit with the 1931 standard in
their default mode at least.

The good feature of the 1931 standard that made it last so long was its
simplicity. It assumes the eye has three detectors, each with sensitivity
curves for the different wavelengths. At that time the colors in the cones
had not been seen - the rods retain their visual purple on death, but the
cones lose their colors. Seeing color in cones only become possible quite
recently when active optic fundus microscopes allowed us to see the cells
in a living eye. When you look at the wavelengths absorbed by the cone
dyes, they are different to the CIE sensitometry data. The red sensitive
dye has one peak and not two. What has happened is the CIE model was
fitting a linear sensitivity to a set of detectors that are connected to a
non-linear set of nerve cells that generate the luminance and color
signals. We see purple as red plus blue, whereas it is really blue plus
unusually little green, which gives us the second peak in the violet for
CIE X.

The CIE standard is based on experiments that were done at about 100 times
the light levels we use. Colour sensitivity peaks at about 2000 lux, which
about the lighting levels they use in operating theaters. At our lower
light levels, our color difference circuits are less able to distinguish
small signals from noise, so we can still see yellow as an equal mixture
of red and green, but an orange made of 100% red plus 5% green may now be
seen as the same as 100% red. And, on top of this, our brain slaps on a
lot of extra processing to try and restore the status quo.

There isn't really a fix for this. We could make a new CIE observer based
on measurements at 50 nits, and that would solve some problems. This might
improve our prediction of near-whites a bit, bit I have tried this and I
could not fix all the colors this way. Measurements are harder to make at
low light levels, and the non-linear effects are more significant. What
would be really nice would be a non-linear model that actually tracked our
vision down into this non-linear regime. This ought to be possible, but it
is still research stuff at present. If enough people from the motion
picture industry clubbed together, it might be possible to get the work
done. But now isn't a good time to pass the hat around.

NB:
There are other color difference models, such as CIECAM02. These are still
based on the CIE model so they aren't a fix for what we are seeing here,
but they can offer a better modeling of how we see scenes where the
lighting is way off white.

I have been trying to hack a Nintendo DS so I can use it as an appearance
standard. I don't know how consistent these things are, and they only have
a 6-bit display control. However, it ought to be possible to make
something that you could visually match to display A, then take to display
B.

For the moment, the solution is probably to grit your teeth and tweak the
white point by hand. Or get used to the new appearance of D65.

Cheers.
Richard Kirk
-- 
FilmLight Ltd.     Tel: +44-(0)20-7292-0400 or -0409-224 (direct)
Artists House,     Fax: +44-(0)20-7292-0401
14-15 Manette Street
London W1D 4AP, UK






From rob at colorist.org  Thu Feb 12 14:46:34 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:46:34 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <32ECF8A5-C787-4CA5-A388-EFEA9938E87C@colorist.org>


On Feb 12, 2009, at 2:44 PM, peter_swinson wrote:

> Also bear in mind that a thin negative has only had the LARGEST grains
> exposed, so the stretch will also make the image look more grainy.

yes, one only has to work with material shot on ultrahighspeed cameras
(photosonics) to see this in an extreme way.

>
> I remember it was always recommended to over expose slightly for  
> telecine
> transfer as this helped by masking the big grains by the smaller ones.

I think Kodak recommended 1/2 stop over.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From jpo at prestodigital.ca  Thu Feb 12 15:57:35 2009
From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 08:57:35 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>

  So maybe here is the appropriate forum to ask, and possibly have  
answered, "How many grains of halide on a 35mm film frame?" I'm  
assuming effective picture area, super35 4-prf... but we can't forget  
the edges either, where all the audio and meta data goes, too, I  
suppose...

originally posed by our esteemed colleague John Galt in an address  
replicated here:  http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth- 
about-2k-4k-the-future-of-pixels


> Film is simple!  4 photons to expose one grain, therefore the  
> larger the
> grain the more likely it is to be exposed!
> And the range size of grains tends to determine, the "bit depth of  
> film!
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
>

Joe Owens
Presto!Digital Colourgrade
302-9664 106 Avenue
Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4
+1 780 421-9980
jpo at prestodigital.ca





From martin-p at moving-picture.com  Thu Feb 12 15:12:34 2009
From: martin-p at moving-picture.com (Martin Parsons)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:12:34 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor display and color issues
In-Reply-To: <4994205B.7080406@workflowers.net>
Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B4941972D880@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local>

Cedric wrote:

> Yes, but from what I see there is no display port on the DAVIO, 
> is the Dreamcolor able to do 10 bit thru DL DVI, or using a HDMI to 
> Display Port converter? 

Both the Dreamcolor monitor and Davio have HDMI connectors.

However (as I was told yesterday by a Cine-tal reseller) the HDMI 1.3 on
the Davio is still 8 bit. They are working on it being 10bit

Cheers

Martin

Martin Parsons
Head of Imaging
MPC
Soho, London
www.moving-picture.com




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Thu Feb 12 19:26:28 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:26:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Joe Owens wrote:
> originally posed by our esteemed colleague John Galt in an address replicated 
> here: 
> http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of-pixels

This is an excellent article.  I appreciated the truthful perspective 
on the Bayer pattern and actual resolution.  Better resolved pixels 
are usually more useful than more fuzzy pixels in the same image. 
Most people will be looking at images in HD or "2K" resolution. 
Using higher frame rates, and native HDR sensors seems like a great 
way for the industry to go.

If you take the stated Bayer resolution and divide it by four, then 
you have a more realistic statement of actual resolution.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri Feb 13 09:32:19 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:32:19 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>


On Feb 12, 2009, at 19:26, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>
> If you take the stated Bayer resolution and divide it by four, then  
> you have a more realistic statement of actual resolution.
>

...but a completely meaningless number as spatial resolution is  
dependent on wavelength! Don't forget that Bayer is a PSYCHOVISUAL  
technique - it's designed to make good LOOKING images in an efficient  
way, not satisfy some arbitrary 'resolution' criteria.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
LONDON UK WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From carl at stopp.se  Fri Feb 13 12:35:55 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:35:55 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Metadata in QT
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>

Hi

Got a slightly of-topic Q...

I need to find a way to change the "Tape/Reel" metadata into within a bunch of Quicktimes.
I need to get the file-names first 16digits into the metadata location for Reel/tape-info

Anyone got a tip.

(if it can change metadata in DPX files aswell, thats even better)

/carl



Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22



From aranysh at mac.com  Fri Feb 13 14:11:35 2009
From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:11:35 +0600
Subject: [Tig] Metadata in QT
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <4F6C8C41-28D1-4AB4-BBB9-F88A73B00ACB@mac.com>

I change Reel metadata in QT files routinely, but I'm an editor and  
work in FCP.



From bob at bluescreen.com  Fri Feb 13 16:39:43 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:39:43 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>

>Don't forget that Bayer is a PSYCHOVISUAL  
>technique - it's designed to make good LOOKING images in an efficient  
>way, not satisfy some arbitrary 'resolution' criteria.

Bayer is the work of the devil, as is any format which makes up ("derives")
missing information by interpolating existing data.

It's kind of like Sony HDCAM, where it was touted as a high end pro recording
format, and then it comes out that it's only 8 bits, and undersampled at
3:1:1, and the horizontal pixels are lossily compressed to 1440 and then
expanded out on playback.  Looks good from far but far from good.

In my humble opinion, of course.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From carl at stopp.se  Fri Feb 13 16:23:03 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:23:03 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Metadata in QT
In-Reply-To: <7A1A3456-86AC-4DAD-885F-16C3870F7133@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>,
	<7A1A3456-86AC-4DAD-885F-16C3870F7133@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B9@exchange.stopp.se>

Well, doing it manually clip by clip is not an option.
I have 200 clips that need diferent Reel-names
/carl



Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22
________________________________________
From: Erik Hansen [erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com]
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 15:10
To: Carl Skaff
Cc: tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] Metadata in QT

This is in Final Cut? Just change it in the bin by selecting it. You
can do this with multiple items as well.

If it's actually in Quicktime you would probably have to find where
that actual data is located (good luck hopefully it's not binary or
hex) with the Dumpster utility.

Best
Erik

---
All grammar and spelling errors due to fat thumbs and a virtual
keyboard.


From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com  Fri Feb 13 14:10:54 2009
From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:10:54 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Metadata in QT
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <7A1A3456-86AC-4DAD-885F-16C3870F7133@monkeyswithchopstix.com>

This is in Final Cut? Just change it in the bin by selecting it. You  
can do this with multiple items as well.

If it's actually in Quicktime you would probably have to find where  
that actual data is located (good luck hopefully it's not binary or  
hex) with the Dumpster utility.

Best
Erik

---
All grammar and spelling errors due to fat thumbs and a virtual  
keyboard.


From riza at silver.co.uk  Fri Feb 13 15:21:21 2009
From: riza at silver.co.uk (Riza Nur Pacalioglu)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:21:21 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Test please ignore
Message-ID: <1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E59642FBDC310E@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>

I've just joined the list and I am trying to find out how it works, hence this email. Please ignore this test.

Riza Pacalioglu
Producer
Salisbury, UK


From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Fri Feb 13 16:34:47 2009
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:34:47 -0500
Subject: [Tig] How many film grains per S35mm frame?
Message-ID: <200902131134_MC3-2-1C61-7992@compuserve.com>

Joe Owns asked whether anyone had calculated the number of silver halide
grains in an S35mm frame.

Well here is a shot at it, I have asked my Kodak UK friends to check my
grain size assumptions so these figures may be wildly out. I will let you
know in due course.

Assumptions: 
largest grain in average negative stock about 6um, similar to a single 4K
pixel., 

Grain size range roughly equates to density "discrimination" of material,
or , if you like, its bit depth capture capability. Let's assume a
conservative 12 bits. 

Therefore the smallest vs the largest grain ratio is 2^12. (4096). 

Any overlapping grains are discounted.
 
We will assume a linear random spread of grain sizes through the material.
Therefore the largest grains can be assumed to occupy, on average ¼ of the
frame, then ½ that grain size occupy 1/8th frame and so on. In other words
there are 1000 largest grains per unit width of the frame and around 750
per unit height of the frame. 
For simplicities sake, we will assume the grain sizes decrease in 50% area
steps down to 1/4096th the size of the largest grain. 

Therefore a single colour layer of grain halide approximates to 4,095,000
grains per 6um high (4k digital pixel) unit width of film image. (1000 of
6um, 2000 of 3um, 4000 of 1.5um and so on.)

For a full  S35mm image area this figure is multiplied  by 750 vertical
sets giving approx 3,070,000,000  grains. 

Now that's just one layer. Typically a colour negative has two halide
layers per colour sensitive layer, so this figure needs multiplying by 6. 

Result. The average colour negative S35mm frame area contains 

18,070,000,000 grains of silver halide. Varying in size from 6um to 0.25nm.

Give or take a few zeros!

Remember that film is only able to capture a range of luminance by the very
fact it has different size grains. While a digital CCD/CMOS pixel is a
fixed size but can acquire any luminance level within its range. Look at it
this way a single 4k pixel sampled from film encompasses typically 100
random sized film grains per film layer.

Of course not only does the film have so many grains, they are random frame
to frame, so the sampling "resolution" varies randomly frame by frame. Yes
you could say that where there are just smaller grains the resolution goes
way up, but remember the density discrimination at such points reduces.
However the human visual system integrates several frames and their grain.
So even if one frame did not capture a fine edge of detail, chances are the
next frame will, and our brains interpolate this as finer sharpness!  All
part of the film look I guess. So don't go removing that grain just to get
more down the compressed pipe.

Hard Hat fitted, awaiting the flak.

Cheers

Peter    



From aranysh at mac.com  Fri Feb 13 16:50:21 2009
From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:50:21 +0600
Subject: [Tig] Metadata in QT
In-Reply-To: <7A1A3456-86AC-4DAD-885F-16C3870F7133@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81B5@exchange.stopp.se>
	<7A1A3456-86AC-4DAD-885F-16C3870F7133@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
Message-ID: <2DE2F15D-B873-47F9-A87F-98AB2B370F18@mac.com>

Changing Reel in FCP Browser changes actual data in a QT file.



From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri Feb 13 17:36:31 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:36:31 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>


On Feb 13, 2009, at 16:39, Bob Kertesz wrote:
>
>
>> Don't forget that Bayer is a PSYCHOVISUAL
>> technique - it's designed to make good LOOKING images in an efficient
>> way, not satisfy some arbitrary 'resolution' criteria.
>
> Bayer is the work of the devil, as is any format which makes up  
> ("derives")
> missing information by interpolating existing data.
>
> It's kind of like Sony HDCAM, where it was touted as a high end pro  
> recording
> format, and then it comes out that it's only 8 bits, and  
> undersampled at
> 3:1:1, and the horizontal pixels are lossily compressed to 1440 and  
> then
> expanded out on playback.  Looks good from far but far from good.
>
> In my humble opinion, of course.
>

So - in essence - you're saying that Dr Bryce Bayer is the devil?  
It's certainly an interesting notion. I presume any grading or other  
post techniques that involve the loss of real data in creating an  
apparently good looking image are likewise demonic? That's a lot of  
evil, all told.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
LONDON UK WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb 13 18:08:56 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:08:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131200370.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
> ...but a completely meaningless number as spatial resolution is dependent on 
> wavelength! Don't forget that Bayer is a PSYCHOVISUAL technique - it's 
> designed to make good LOOKING images in an efficient way, not satisfy some 
> arbitrary 'resolution' criteria.

Most current imaging technologies take advantage of psychovisual 
techniques.  There are places for such techniques, and places where 
they fail miserably.

Given the interest in using 4K (or even higher) resolutions, it is 
wise to make sure that the content is accurate enough to justify use 
of such resolutions.  The cost of 4K is high.  If the actual quality 
of the content could be represented in 2K, then that cost is wasted.

The only valid way to evaluate the use of Bayer patterns in sensors is 
by performing real-world measurements in an entire system, which 
includes the lens, and necessary post-processing.  As you say, the 
results will differ for different sorts of scenes.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb 13 18:58:06 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:58:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>
> So - in essence - you're saying that Dr Bryce Bayer is the devil? It's 
> certainly an interesting notion. I presume any grading or other post 
> techniques that involve the loss of real data in creating an apparently good 
> looking image are likewise demonic? That's a lot of evil, all told.

Any spacially discrete sensing of color primaries is "evil".  There 
are other spacially discrete patterns which may be worse or better for 
different scenarios.

The only single-chip sensor I am aware of which does not use spacially 
discrete pixels is the Foveon X3 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor).  When performing a 
pixel-level comparison of images captured with Foveon X3 and 
high-grade 10MP DSLR cameras (often costing 2X as much), it 
immediately becomes evident that the vertically stacked sensors 
provide a huge advantage to actual resolution.  The lack of aliasing 
artifacts becomes immediately apparent.  Unfortunately, the behavior 
of these chips is not suitable for video cameras, and even when used 
in a DSLR, the device does not perform well in low-light conditions. 
In decreased light conditions, there is a loss of color quality, and 
more noise.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From riza at silver.co.uk  Fri Feb 13 19:42:46 2009
From: riza at silver.co.uk (Riza Nur Pacalioglu)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:42:46 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Scan to Data (DPX) facilities in UK
Message-ID: <1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E59642FBDC3191@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>

Hi

I am in the market for hiring a facility to scan my dailies to DPX sequences, save to removable hard drives and send to us as part of the rushes process. The addition of attaching HD proxies is preferable. If you are offering such a service or have experience with it please let me know.

Many thanks in advance.

Riza Nur Pacalioglu
Producer "Fathers of Girls"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1300349/
Salisbury, England


From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri Feb 13 22:41:33 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:41:33 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <B7D35FE5-D12D-41EB-96F9-4D71AF612DCD@autotv.co.uk>


On Feb 13, 2009, at 18:58, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, Adrian Thomas wrote:
>>
>> So - in essence - you're saying that Dr Bryce Bayer is the devil?  
>> It's certainly an interesting notion. I presume any grading or  
>> other post techniques that involve the loss of real data in  
>> creating an apparently good looking image are likewise demonic?  
>> That's a lot of evil, all told.
>
> Any spacially discrete sensing of color primaries is "evil".  There  
> are other spacially discrete patterns which may be worse or better  
> for different scenarios.
>
> The only single-chip sensor I am aware of which does not use  
> spacially discrete pixels is the Foveon X3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/ 
> wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor).  When performing a pixel-level comparison  
> of images captured with Foveon X3 and high-grade 10MP DSLR cameras  
> (often costing 2X as much), it immediately becomes evident that the  
> vertically stacked sensors provide a huge advantage to actual  
> resolution.  The lack of aliasing artifacts becomes immediately  
> apparent.  Unfortunately, the behavior of these chips is not  
> suitable for video cameras, and even when used in a DSLR, the  
> device does not perform well in low-light conditions. In decreased  
> light conditions, there is a loss of color quality, and more noise.
>

General opinion is that the Bayer 10MP approach is quite superior in  
overall performance.

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
LONDON UK WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From jeffkreines at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 14 04:23:40 2009
From: jeffkreines at mindspring.com (Jeff Kreines)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:23:40 -0600
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <0C646B7A-6061-43F4-9487-5A38FE7BC456@mindspring.com>

Just because it sounds good on paper doesn't mean it makes good images.

Think of Bayer as akin to digital sampling of audio -- just use a  
high enough resolution sensor to get past the visual equivalent of 2x  
Nyquist.  The beauty of capturing RAW Bayer and saving the images in  
RAW is that demosiacing algorithms keep getting better.  A little  
like shooting film in 1979 and scanning it at 4K in 2009 -- you find  
new glories in old images.

The Foveon sensor has not been well received -- the company was  
recently sold to Sigma, a low-end camera manufacturer who was the  
only significant adopter of the the technology.

Had it been a breakthrough (there are many reasons it was not, having  
to do with the lack of transparency of the different color layers)  
you can rest assured a more significant company would have bought it  
-- Canon, Kodak, Nikon, or another sensor manufacturer.

  For CCD or CMOS capture, in color, you have a choice between using  
3 sensors and prisms, or one sensor with Bayer or similar color  
filter arrays.  Bayer has issues with aliasing and usually requires  
an OPLF, but there are optical issues designing lenses to deal with  
the prisms in 3-sensor cameras, so essentially you can choose your  
aberrations.  I prefer simpler optics and a wider choice of lenses.   
(I also like to shoot in monochrome, which gets rid of the Bayer  
issue, but that is not an option for many these days.)

Jeff "single-sensor-agnostic" Kreines

On Feb 13, 2009, at 12:58 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> The only single-chip sensor I am aware of which does not use  
> spacially discrete pixels is the Foveon X3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/ 
> wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor).




From rob at colorist.org  Sat Feb 14 17:45:41 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:45:41 +0200
Subject: [Tig] RED rushes, RED cine, downconversion question (Aja Kona card)
Message-ID: <B0598A1B-F86B-40B9-8A1C-3D1869CD8745@colorist.org>

I'm interested in fine-tuning the settings for downconverting raw  
files from RED at 4k to SDI, both from RED Rushes and RED Cine.    
Using an Aja Kona card, don't have the card version number right now...

Could someone point me to a reference for various settings, in that  
I'm interested in creating the maximum dynamic range and fewest  
artifacts, for input at SDI into DaVinci 2k+ at SDI?

thanks in advance...
Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 14 17:18:58 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 09:18:58 -0800
Subject: [Tig] How many film grains per S35mm frame?
In-Reply-To: <200902131134_MC3-2-1C61-7992@compuserve.com>
References: <200902131134_MC3-2-1C61-7992@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <838E4396-3249-43CD-B809-C7765A0FE7E4@earthlink.net>


While it can be fun to estimate grains per frame,  it also helps
to recall that a 'grain' is not an integral unit of resolution for film
in the way that a pixel is the lowest unit of a CCD.

Negative grain size and shape help determine the way in which a grain  
becomes
sensitized to the photon stream at that point, and grain edge effects  
matter for resolution.

Developed 'dye clouds' in the print are also not the base unit of  
resolution. There
are more dye clouds than there were grains.

Think instead of grains as a column of randomly sized, randomly pointed
, randomly distributed, mostly transparent CCD pixels,  then try to  
add up
how much light enters a single 'pixel'!    :-)

Jim Houston
Starwatcher Digital


On Feb 13, 2009, at 8:34 AM, peter_swinson wrote:
>
> Joe Owns asked whether anyone had calculated the number of silver  
> halide
> grains in an S35mm frame.
>
>



From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu  Sat Feb 14 23:21:24 2009
From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 18:21:24 -0500
Subject: [Tig] RED rushes, RED cine, downconversion question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.223.1234633599.11769.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.223.1234633599.11769.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <f203cfb42a9db.49970ba4@mail.nyu.edu>


>I'm interested in fine-tuning the settings for downconverting raw 
>files from RED at 4k to SDI, both from RED Rushes and RED Cine.   
>Using an Aja Kona card, don't have the card version number right now...

>Could someone point me to a reference for various settings, in that 
>I'm interested in creating the maximum dynamic range and fewest 
>artifacts, for input at SDI into DaVinci 2k+ at SDI?

Are you saying you will be converting from Raw to RGB/YUV color space? By SDI do you mean standard definition? ( As opposed to HDSDI ?) Are you going to transcode and then use the CPU with the Aja card as a virtual VTR?

I think that the fewest artifacts would mean using the REC709 gamma or Redlog LUT,  saving as uncompressed RGB 4:4:4 10bit log and doing color space conversions later. The other option is to export as DPX and use Aja's quicktime wrapper.

---Larry T



From rob at colorist.org  Sat Feb 14 23:33:26 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:33:26 +0200
Subject: [Tig] RED rushes, RED cine, downconversion question
In-Reply-To: <f203cfb42a9db.49970ba4@mail.nyu.edu>
References: <mailman.223.1234633599.11769.tig@colorist.org>
	<f203cfb42a9db.49970ba4@mail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <1BB7C06C-5FC9-4204-9522-A574DE8E9AD6@colorist.org>


On Feb 15, 2009, at 1:21 AM, Lawrence Towers wrote:

> Are you saying you will be converting from Raw to RGB/YUV color  
> space? By SDI do you mean standard definition? ( As opposed to  
> HDSDI ?) Are you going to transcode and then use the CPU with the  
> Aja card as a virtual VTR?

yes to all those questions Larry.

> I think that the fewest artifacts would mean using the REC709 gamma  
> or Redlog LUT,  saving as uncompressed RGB 4:4:4 10bit log and doing  
> color space conversions later. The other option is to export as DPX  
> and use Aja's quicktime wrapper.

thanks, I'll explore those options.

Rob

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From underscan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 15 09:29:22 2009
From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 10:29:22 +0100
Subject: [Tig] monitor surround light
Message-ID: <1431AB79-D824-450D-BC18-093AA58AB648@gmail.com>

hi all

just came across this from eCinema:

SLS-01 Surround Light
http://www.ecinemasystems.com/products/monitor.php?product=11

what do you think about it and can this be achieved in a cheaper way?
the price seems a bit overpriced imo.

cheerz
mark

--
underscan films | berlin



From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb 15 15:55:36 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:55:36 +0200
Subject: [Tig] SMPTE meeting reminders
Message-ID: <1C4F4E7E-9539-4836-A869-A0D1D1C2E560@colorist.org>

see
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

the entry for Feb. 17  St. Patrick's Day in LA
and the one for Feb 25 for NY

and the Filmmakers Connection Meeting in Dix Hills also on the 25.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb 15 16:24:31 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:24:31 +0200
Subject: [Tig] eCinema FX-2401 review sought
Message-ID: <48A6C804-227C-460E-944E-A4F53368EF3F@colorist.org>

the eCinema FX-2401 at 4kUS$ is recommended by the manufacturer as a  
semi-critical monitor for HD/SD.

can anyone who has experience comment on that?

thanks in advance.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb 15 16:36:34 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:36:34 +0200
Subject: [Tig] training options for colorists
Message-ID: <9A83C36E-27A5-4AA6-8EDA-9CC893EFB92D@colorist.org>

The wiki "training options for colorists" page at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Training_Options_for_Colorists

might need some updating, for all the training options available from  
manufacturers
and certified trainers.  please contact me with your updates.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach    TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 16 04:33:36 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 20:33:36 -0800
Subject: [Tig] SMPTE meeting reminders
In-Reply-To: <1C4F4E7E-9539-4836-A869-A0D1D1C2E560@colorist.org>
References: <1C4F4E7E-9539-4836-A869-A0D1D1C2E560@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <DC081CF6-BBE6-4270-995D-2AC2811C9ABB@earthlink.net>


On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:55 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> the entry for Feb. 17  St. Patrick's Day in LA

While I know the Irish like to party, and there is a meeting
in LA on Feb 17th.  It is a full month til St. Patrick's Day, Mar 17:-)

Jim H.



From peter_swinson at compuserve.com  Mon Feb 16 11:12:27 2009
From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 06:12:27 -0500
Subject: [Tig] How many film grains per S35mm frame?
Message-ID: <200902160612_MC3-2-1BE6-1FE6@compuserve.com>

I agree with Jim Housten's comments stating that film grain does not
determine resolution in the same way that digital photosites do. His note
that "There are more dye clouds than there were grains" should I believe
read the converse. The final dye clouds in a processed neg, or print, tend
to be generated from a combination of original silver grains each of which
grains were exposed silver halide.

Here is a link to a very interesting paper on the subject. I have not yet
read it in detail but some of the images clearly show the principles in
play.
 
http://aic.stanford.edu/sg/emg/library/pdf/vitale/2007-04-vitale-filmgrain_
resolution.pdf

cheers

Peter




From shukkra at yahoo.in  Mon Feb 16 08:53:25 2009
From: shukkra at yahoo.in (Mr Shukkra)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:23:25 +0530 (IST)
Subject: [Tig] CRT for URSA telecine model # HST 1871
Message-ID: <319580.99152.qm@web95112.mail.in2.yahoo.com>



 Hello friends

 One of my friend in INDIA seeking "low used" or old stock CRT for the URSA telecine machine. 

If anyone will help to get above mentioned it will be great helpfull job for us.

Please send me the picture of the front side and best price if anyone have it.

Thanks & regards

Shukkran


      Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/




From bob at bluescreen.com  Mon Feb 16 16:12:52 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:12:52 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <0C646B7A-6061-43F4-9487-5A38FE7BC456@mindspring.com>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<0C646B7A-6061-43F4-9487-5A38FE7BC456@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <vg3jp45rq9ci5qt00jj4j3pmvumbiq25j0@4ax.com>

>  For CCD or CMOS capture, in color, you have a choice between using  
>3 sensors and prisms, or one sensor with Bayer or similar color  
>filter arrays. 

Well, yes, but...

With all due respect to Jeff, who has done INFINITELY more research into the
concept than I ever will, and has consulted on several popular camera
designs...

Single chip pickups like the ones used in the Panavision Genesis and some
other high end cameras have the full complement of RGB sensors, and don't have
to "interpolate" or "derive" or "approximate" or use any of the other
euphemism for making pixels up out of math and whole cloth to generate full
images like Bayer-based chips do. As a result, they don't have to go through
badly written algorithms. The reason the "demosiacing algorithms keep getting
better" is because after all this time, they still mostly suck, and have
nowhere to go but up. And that's the ones used in post which have to have a
computer and render time. The real time hardware based ones built into the
cameras for the "tap" output are truly awful.

And of course you have the other issue, which is that camera manufacturers are
claiming 4K resolution on chips where even the basic math doesn't support the
claim once you actually debayer the footage to make it usable. The 4K claims
for many Bayer based cameras are pure marketing. The only way currently to get
real 4K out of a Bayer based camera is to start off with a minimum 5K sized
sensor. And even then...

While I understand the reasoning behind the use of Bayer chips, I'm not a huge
fan of their use in anything other than still cameras.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon Feb 16 16:57:43 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:57:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <vg3jp45rq9ci5qt00jj4j3pmvumbiq25j0@4ax.com>
References: <200902120744_MC3-2-1BE6-145B@compuserve.com>
	<EF6F9325-4970-42D4-A81B-39F68DD2D1DD@prestodigital.ca>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<0C646B7A-6061-43F4-9487-5A38FE7BC456@mindspring.com>
	<vg3jp45rq9ci5qt00jj4j3pmvumbiq25j0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902161047490.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009, Bob Kertesz wrote:
>
> Single chip pickups like the ones used in the Panavision Genesis and some
> other high end cameras have the full complement of RGB sensors, and don't have
> to "interpolate" or "derive" or "approximate" or use any of the other

This is not completely true.  The Panavision Genesis still has 
spacially distinct red, green, and blue photo-sites.  The math is 
surely more trivial, aliasing is less of a problem, and since the 
camera only claims to be "HD" and each pixel has its own red, green, 
and blue photo-sites, there is not much impact on true resolution. 
Regardless, the focus of Panavision Genesis has been on wide dynamic 
range (due to larger photo-sites), and less noise (also due to larger 
photo-sites).

Cameras using multiple monochrome CCDs or CMOS sensors do not require 
any interpolation, but they suffer from other issues.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb 16 17:03:46 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:03:46 +0200
Subject: [Tig] TIGNABFS09  available
Message-ID: <D4C02EB3-F2A8-4487-89DA-23408F482AE0@colorist.org>

A tradition going back to the TIG's inception is the annual TIG NAB  
Focus Sheet.  The 2009 edition has been
started and ready for input at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09    please send me  
your information privately so I can edit
it in manually with the proper format, thank you.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach    TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From bob at bluescreen.com  Mon Feb 16 17:54:12 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 09:54:12 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902161047490.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<0C646B7A-6061-43F4-9487-5A38FE7BC456@mindspring.com>
	<vg3jp45rq9ci5qt00jj4j3pmvumbiq25j0@4ax.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902161047490.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <ri9jp4db4clhegmnn77d375f9i8rfr3pvp@4ax.com>

>> Single chip pickups like the ones used in the Panavision Genesis and some
>> other high end cameras have the full complement of RGB sensors, and don't have
>> to "interpolate" or "derive" or "approximate" or use any of the other
>
>This is not completely true. 


The Genesis has 1920 red, green, and blue pixels per line and, unlike a Bayer
chip, does not have to use any tricks to derive any missing information. Sure,
the pixels are physically offset to comply with the fact that two bodies
cannot occupy the same physical space at the same time, but all 5760 pixels
per line send information on to the processing circuits, without any "pay no
attention to the man behind the curtain" methodology.

So which part of the quoted statement is not completely true?

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon Feb 16 18:46:21 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 12:46:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Thin (underexposed) neg and dirt
In-Reply-To: <ri9jp4db4clhegmnn77d375f9i8rfr3pvp@4ax.com>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902121320440.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<F02A2C17-15FF-426F-BA15-A199787B8601@autotv.co.uk>
	<h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
	<42FD167B-6419-42FE-B7D8-DEFF1A7B4A3C@autotv.co.uk>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902131245210.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<0C646B7A-6061-43F4-9487-5A38FE7BC456@mindspring.com>
	<vg3jp45rq9ci5qt00jj4j3pmvumbiq25j0@4ax.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902161047490.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<ri9jp4db4clhegmnn77d375f9i8rfr3pvp@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902161244090.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 16 Feb 2009, Bob Kertesz wrote:

>>> Single chip pickups like the ones used in the Panavision Genesis and some
>>> other high end cameras have the full complement of RGB sensors, and don't have
>>> to "interpolate" or "derive" or "approximate" or use any of the other
>>
>> This is not completely true.
>
> So which part of the quoted statement is not completely true?

The statement that "interpolation" is not needed is not quite correct. 
Since the RGB sensors are not co-sited, there will be some small color 
distortion without some post-processing to adjust.  It is just a 
matter of degree.

Bob
======================================
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/




From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb 16 19:10:53 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:10:53 +0200
Subject: [Tig] binocular glasses
Message-ID: <D71F32E8-2843-4E79-95DD-CD0A06A50F9A@colorist.org>

In our living-room environments now common in grading suites, I have  
always been interested in the functions of binocular glasses, which  
could be issued to clients as they walk in the door.  I refer to a  
previous comment on the TIG (of a few years ago).  This solution could  
be a lot cheaper and easier than providing a second matched, grade 1  
monitor, in the back of the suite for those lounging clients.  Here's  
the URL for those interested:

> http://tinyurl.com/ypdgey

and the comment from a TIG subscriber, as to the response:
---------

Hi Rob,
i tested one in a little optometrist shop here around the corner.
Because i am doing a lot of cinema/grading room projector
calibration jobs it attracts me very much.
After my short test i was very enthusiastic about that crazy crazy
glasses. Color rendering seems to be good (sun was shining and i saw  
no changes with my trained eyes..)
and the magnification puts you instantly in a better position
to judge most kinds of picture attributes/quality.
I was too thrifty to buy one but the next time i see one of those
i will think again about it.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Mon Feb 16 19:41:15 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:41:15 +0200
Subject: [Tig] NAB events info request
Message-ID: <A214BC6A-C816-44A7-A0C4-8F664082353A@colorist.org>

Please Add your party- confab- whatever info to the TIG calendar, at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

TIG subscribers want to know, where can they meet in Vegas, for
whatever?

Rob

--
Rob Lingelbach   TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From rogerito at terra.com.br  Tue Feb 17 03:25:20 2009
From: rogerito at terra.com.br (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rog=E9rio_Moraes?=)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:25:20 -0300
Subject: [Tig] TAF question
Message-ID: <000001c990af$5d29b220$177d1660$@com.br>

Does anyone how the TAF film strip is "generated" ?

Is it photographed with a camera than processed like a "regular" OCN? If so,
what kind of lenses they use? At what T (or .f) stop? How about chromatic
aberrations?

Is it a digital file transferred to the emulsion to be calibrated? (does not
seem to me like the case
)

Really curious about, since Kodak does not mention how or from where the
actually film strip comes from.

If that is a silly question, sorry. insomniac and bored at the same time.



From rob at colorist.org  Tue Feb 17 07:15:13 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:15:13 +0200
Subject: [Tig] TAF question
In-Reply-To: <000001c990af$5d29b220$177d1660$@com.br>
References: <000001c990af$5d29b220$177d1660$@com.br>
Message-ID: <3AB1E4DE-9C12-4287-8F96-9A0C27743B46@colorist.org>


On Feb 17, 2009, at 5:25 AM, Rogério Moraes wrote:

> Does anyone how the TAF film strip is "generated" ?

Hi Rogério,

as I recall, and this process might have changed since I last heard,
there are 3 passes done on the film, 1 for each dye layer, and for
this reason you may notice that the image is slightly out of focus.
I'm sure someone else will chime in with more detail.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From kent at notch.ca  Tue Feb 17 07:29:49 2009
From: kent at notch.ca (Kent McCormick)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 02:29:49 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Magenta
Message-ID: <499A676D.10507@notch.ca>



Re posted from cml

http://www.biotele.com/magenta.html

I wounder how clients will react if I tell them there brains are "making 
it up"!


Kent McCormick
colorist
Notch





From rob at colorist.org  Tue Feb 17 09:23:53 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:23:53 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Magenta
In-Reply-To: <499A676D.10507@notch.ca>
References: <499A676D.10507@notch.ca>
Message-ID: <BC51ACDB-0094-4494-BE5D-783FC93F6F61@colorist.org>


On Feb 17, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Kent McCormick wrote:

>
> http://www.biotele.com/magenta.html
>
> I wounder how clients will react if I tell them there brains are  
> "making it up"!

I've noticed over the years that there seems to be a negative reaction  
on the part
of clients toward any color balance that tends toward the magenta.   
Could it be
that this is because it doesn't really exist in the spectrum and is a  
figment of our
imagination?

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From mfw at musictrax.com  Tue Feb 17 17:35:32 2009
From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:35:32 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
In-Reply-To: <h68bp4tmrh5kajbkkl0a2vlr44ljqa9rv3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <C5C03564.10077%mfw@musictrax.com>

There's been some interesting talk over on the Sound Mixers' discussion
group lately (rec.arts.motion.picture.sound) about the Red camera, along
with some of its positive and negative points.

Here's some links for discussion:

http://www.rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html


And this one, by John Galt of Panavision:

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of-
pixels


Lotta interesting discussion there.  I think both settle a lot of arguments
and questions that I've heard from clients over the past few months, and I'm
glad to finally have a fairly weighty fact source (with the numbers to back
it up).

For the record, I don't dislike the Red camera at all, and as far as I'm
concerned it's just a tool like everything else.  To me, every project is
always more about the lighting than it is about the pixels.


--Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist
Technicolor Creative Services
Hollywood, USA

NOTE:  The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily
represent those of my employers.






From turnto at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 17 17:10:42 2009
From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:10:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] 35mm Projectors
Message-ID: <510684.51683.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Hello All

 We have a couple of 35mm projectors that we pulled from our screening room that we no longer need. 

 I need a alcohol based film cleaner. Only one stipulation it has to be a trade. 

Please e-mail me off list if you or anyone you know would be interested.

<mailto> david.keleshian at tvc.cbs.com

Thanks
David Keleshian
CBS TVC



From velocite at gmail.com  Wed Feb 18 09:37:12 2009
From: velocite at gmail.com (John Buck / Velocite)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:37:12 +1100
Subject: [Tig] Vale Jack Calaway
Message-ID: <01025B68-3158-4508-B6B2-6811AA61105D@gmail.com>

I noticed this week that Jack's great historical site that covers
all electronic editing had closed due to hosting issues.

With only the intention of keeping it alive, I have moved the files over
to my own web domain.

If anyone has any issues with that please let me know.

John

http://www.velocite.net/lobby.html
http://www.velocite.net/ampex/ampex.html



From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 18 11:23:07 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:23:07 +0200
Subject: [Tig] GoogleMaps code added to wiki (new API)
Message-ID: <86BF7F81-B4F0-40D2-B439-037D3041EE30@colorist.org>

GoogleMaps have returned to the TIG wiki with new code to allow the  
creation of paths.

You can add locations, paths, route information, to your map of an  
event location, your own
hideout, ...

and a couple of video tutorials, hardly even needed, are at
http://www.evanmiller.org/mov/map1.mov
http://www.evanmiller.org/mov/map-path1.mov

also a new TIG wiki page is available for those wishing to test any  
TIG wiki feature, navigable from the sidebar; the direct link is http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Sandbox

anonymous edits are disallowed due to spambots, one must only be  
logged in as a TIG wiki user.  If you already had signed up as a TIG  
wiki user and have forgotten your login or password, just create a new  
account.  please include something in the login that will allow the  
administrator and others to know who you are.  Creating a user account  
is quite simple.

Rob

--
Rob Lingelbach     TIG admin.founder
rob at colorist.org






From peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com  Wed Feb 18 12:22:04 2009
From: peter.stansfield at wavecrest-systems.com (peter stansfield)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:22:04 +0000
Subject: [Tig] NAB 2009? - out of show hours activities?
Message-ID: <9AC1E782-CD96-4E6B-A578-B7D88E40454E@wavecrest-systems.com>

One of the advantages of NAB is that most years I find something good  
musically to see

NAB 2009 gives the choice between Paul McCartney and Elton John.

Anyone else recommend something else that's on that they're 'grooving  
to'?

Regards


Peter Stansfield
Wavecrest Systems Ltd (UK)





From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 18 13:40:30 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 15:40:30 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
In-Reply-To: <C5C03564.10077%mfw@musictrax.com>
References: <C5C03564.10077%mfw@musictrax.com>
Message-ID: <B9A4B5EE-4C19-421C-9DF2-359E31FBA970@colorist.org>


On Feb 17, 2009, at 7:35 PM, Marc Wielage wrote:

> For the record, I don't dislike the Red camera at all, and as far as  
> I'm
> concerned it's just a tool like everything else.  To me, every  
> project is
> always more about the lighting than it is about the pixels.

very much agree with you about lighting.  I've seen some footage shot  
on RED
that could just as well have been shot on MiniDV, for all the  
attention paid to the
production.  on the other hand I've had a demo recently of the Arri  
D21 and had
the chance to play with its output through grading, and

I agree with what Roger Deakins says here:

http://www.deakinsonline.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=296

I am not affiliated with Arri nor with RED.
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 18 16:42:29 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:42:29 +0200
Subject: [Tig] equipment upgrade question
Message-ID: <E2BB639E-77A0-4962-BAE6-9491A29F3CD6@colorist.org>

Hello. I hope I'm posting in the right place. I work for a small film  
lab in New York and we're looking to upgrade our telecine equipment -  
which is currently very limited. My boss is looking at two different  
options.

-Either a used Ursa Diamond Y front with 8:8:8 color corrector with 8,  
16 and 35 gates with a Snell upres unit for HD.

-Or a new CTM Debrie Memory HD 8/16 - They are a french company - http://www.ctmdebrie.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=168&Itemid=123

We are not sure about image quality differences - The Memory HD does  
HD straight to file and the Ursa would need an upres unit and is an  
older machine.

There is also some concern about getting the Memory HD serviced and  
supported when needed.

Any comments or suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Marc email: marcs06 at gmail.com
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From dtatut at chrome-imaging.com  Wed Feb 18 16:59:00 2009
From: dtatut at chrome-imaging.com (dtatut at chrome-imaging.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:59:00 +0100
Subject: [Tig] equipment upgrade question
In-Reply-To: <E2BB639E-77A0-4962-BAE6-9491A29F3CD6@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.32.1256150957.17148.tig@colorist.org>

Hi Marc,

There are other interesting options if the budget to be considered.

Contact me off-list

Dan

Dan Tatut
Chief Executive Officer
 
 
Chrome Imaging SA
1 Rue des Tuillieres
CH-1196 Gland
Switzerland
Phone: +41 22 364 54 71
Fax: +41 22 807 23 70
WWW: http://www.chrome-imaging.com


From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 18 18:53:08 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:53:08 +0200
Subject: [Tig] TAF question
In-Reply-To: <6859ABCA1001426E8F4D5E9ACA2D7123@DESKTOP>
References: <000001c990af$5d29b220$177d1660$@com.br>
	<3AB1E4DE-9C12-4287-8F96-9A0C27743B46@colorist.org>
	<6859ABCA1001426E8F4D5E9ACA2D7123@DESKTOP>
Message-ID: <D6D20AE7-DDC0-4DC2-BB85-CE5AD21AA359@colorist.org>


On Feb 18, 2009, at 8:45 PM, S. T. Nottingham III wrote:
>
> inability of the TAFs colors to lie within the quadrants of your  
> system's
> vector scopes is simply the result of the television system  
> "interpretation"
> of the image on film.

i well remember the advice of John Pytlak, late of Kodak and the  
earth,not to
use any secondary correction on these patches.


--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From Stn3 at aol.com  Wed Feb 18 18:45:21 2009
From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:45:21 -0800
Subject: [Tig] TAF question
In-Reply-To: <3AB1E4DE-9C12-4287-8F96-9A0C27743B46@colorist.org>
References: <000001c990af$5d29b220$177d1660$@com.br>
	<3AB1E4DE-9C12-4287-8F96-9A0C27743B46@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <6859ABCA1001426E8F4D5E9ACA2D7123@DESKTOP>

It is my understanding that the TAF is made by exposing color film using RGB
filters to a calibrated light source. The exposure is carefully controlled
to yield certain densities in key swatches, and then the film is processed
in a controlled system for the type of film the TAF represents.

One common misconception is that the color patches represent "calibrated"
television colors. It would be improper to set the Telecine to these color
patches as any kind of standard on the system vector scopes. Instead, the
TAF represents a mid-range exposure for that type of film, and is a good
starting place and nothing more. Because of the Logarithmic nature of film,
and the great variation in emulations and processing, the TAF will
doubtfully represent a good match for any given customer's film. The
inability of the TAFs colors to lie within the quadrants of your system's
vector scopes is simply the result of the television system "interpretation"
of the image on film.

Re: KODAK Publication No. H-9, TAF User's Guide

Tom Nottingham
  

-----Original Message-----
From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf
Of Rob Lingelbach
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:15 PM
To: Rogério Moraes
Cc: tig at colorist.org
Subject: Re: [Tig] TAF question

2077 subscribers as of February 2009
Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
Lynette Duensing supports the TIG.
 ====



On Feb 17, 2009, at 5:25 AM, Rogério Moraes wrote:

> Does anyone how the TAF film strip is "generated" ?

Hi Rogério,

as I recall, and this process might have changed since I last heard,
there are 3 passes done on the film, 1 for each dye layer, and for
this reason you may notice that the image is slightly out of focus.
I'm sure someone else will chime in with more detail.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org





_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 18 19:13:26 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:13:26 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Jeff Quinn passing
References: <977303.2573.qm@web110003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <31CB425B-AE8D-44AD-A330-6612A8A91E84@colorist.org>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: "G. Baker Film & Data Tech" <hdedit at yahoo.com>
> Date: February 18, 2009 8:56:38 PM GMT+02:00
> To: rob at colorist.org
> Cc: Guy <guy at filmdatatech.com>
> Subject: Jeff Quinn passing
> Reply-To: hdedit at yahoo.com
>
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> I wanted to pass on information about the loss to our community of a  
> great Engineer. Jeff Quinn passed away a week ago and will be missed  
> by all. His funeral will be on Thursday, Feb. 19th at 1pm Eternal  
> Valley Memorial Park 23287 N. Sierra Highway Newhall, CA 91321  
> 661-259-3217
>
> Jeff was a good friend and will be truly missed His engineering  
> expertise touched many people in the Los Angeles area. Jeff had many  
> accomplishments in our industry and many friend.
>
> God Bless you and your family Jeff
>
> An email from his wife shared:
>
> "Jeff was an honorable and good man. His death, by no means, was a  
> reflection of how he lived his life or loved his family. There was  
> no malice in him.. Only love. In his depression, he believed what he  
> was doing was for the good of his family. He went to Green Creek to  
> stop his heart at the place where the love in his heart began to  
> beat and we began our family.A choice he made to bring his life full  
> circle and a choice that we, who loved him, will never fully  
> understand until we meet again."
>
>
> Sincerely
> Guy Baker
> CEO
> Film + Data Technologies
> Film + Data Design
> 28470 Westinghouse PL
> Santa Clarita California 91355
> Office + 661-702-1849
> Cell  + 661-510-8698
> "The Only Way To Predict The Future is To Create It!"
>
>
>

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From screenwarmer at cox.net  Thu Feb 19 01:36:24 2009
From: screenwarmer at cox.net (Rich Montez)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:36:24 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Jeff Quinn passing
In-Reply-To: <31CB425B-AE8D-44AD-A330-6612A8A91E84@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <20090218203624.I9ZBB.33538.imail@fed1rmwml38>

Hi,

I'd just like to chime in here and say that this is a terrible loss for Jeff's family, friends and our Hollywood community.

Jeff was a great Engineer. He was a Chief Engineer. A big picture guy who understood the Post Production business. In addition to that he was a great person. He's the type of guy that everybody likes and never has a bad thing to say about him. The type of guy who always pitches in and helps when needed. He was a very calm person and as smart as they come. He will truly be missed by all of us. May God bless him and his family.

Rich Montez









From post at smalfilm.no  Thu Feb 19 13:34:46 2009
From: post at smalfilm.no (Norsk Smalfilm AS)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:34:46 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Super8 telecine in Europe
Message-ID: <329DEE622BC2484287E90A58861E5A3F@kontoret>

Hi,
We have a client who we can't help at the moment because our
telecine needs service and they can't wait for that.

Who in Europe (preferably) northern Europe is able to scan Super8
neg film with a Quadra/Shadow/Spirit or URSA/Millenium/DPX (or
other) to SD (Digibeta or HDD files (uncompressed)) or HD (tape or
HDD)?

Anyone out there that I can pass them on to? The film has been shot
on Vision2 200T 7217 and is a movie about hippies. :-)

Amount of film is about 1km all prepped and cleaned.

Look forward to hearing from you soon! Please let me know your
equipment and who soon you will be able to do a job like this (also
a price estimate would be nice).

Best,
Andreas
 
---
Norsk Smalfilm AS <post at smalfilm.no>
http://www.smalfilm.no

Filmshooting | Com - http://www.filmshooting.com

Tel:	(+47) 38 17 99 16
Fax:	(+47) 38 02 33 84




From glennchan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 19 21:33:42 2009
From: glennchan at gmail.com (glenn chan)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:33:42 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
Message-ID: <e4dd10a30902191333t592c2047sc4cb2c8bd3244841@mail.gmail.com>

My two Canadian cents...

As far as evaluating cameras go, I don't think that we should theorize based
on specs.  Oftentimes, people will cherry pick specs (or technical
theories/models) to support a particular position.  This is often the case
when one manufacturer is disparaging another manufacturer.  I lean strongly
towards the "just look at the pictures" approach (especially in blind tests
to rule out psychological effect such as price discrimination, 'furniture
effects' on clients, etc.).

--Perceived Sharpness--
Here's a good article on how we perceive sharpness:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sharpness.htm
Resolution of the imaging system, in my opinion, has a very small effect on
perceived sharpness.  I think the trap here is that people do not realize
just how strong sharpness tricks are.  Try resizing an image in Photoshop to
half size, then back to original size using the Bicubic Sharper algorithm.
The resulting image usually looks sharper, even though you've throw away a
lot of information.

As far as measuring camera systems go, I would suggest making a test pattern
similar to an eye chart and have text of decreasing sizes.  The point
cameras at the test pattern and shoot that, with some slow pans across.  By
this measurement, you want to see how well you can resolve the finest text
and sharpness tricks won't really work here.  This would approximate the
most taxing real-world scenarios (unlike zone plates).
Or, you can point the camera at a zone plate and figure out the resolution
that way.  From what I've seen, the 4K Bayer cameras tend to have a lot more
resolution than the "HD" cameras (i.e. ones that record to HD format).

--Sensor Arrangements--
The main types of sensor arrangements are:

Bayer (RGGB); most common kind of Bayer
Bayer RGB stripe
3-chip pixel shifted (different variations)
3-chip co-sited
Foveon

As far as Bayer goes, their effective performance depends on the demosaic
algorithm employed.  The lower-quality algorithms will create mazing and
zippering artifacts, so that is sometimes something to watch out for.  (I
don't know much about RGB stripe but I would expect it to also have
problems.)

All the Bayer systems have pixels aren't co-sited or (effectively) stacked
on top of each other.  This can cause artifacts on black&white test charts
where the resulting image shows color artifacts / the color is misaligned
(black and white test charts should, of course, appear black and white
without color).  3-chip systems tend to exhibit similar effects because the
optics of the entire system (sensor + prism + optics) aren't perfect.  Take
a look at the comparison images on cinematography.net and you'll see this.
So effectively, all camera systems have color artifacts... the question now
becomes how much.
Bayer systems (and 3-chip pixel shifted) can do terribly on zone plates in
terms of color artifacts, though zone plates are highly atypical of real
world scenes.  In other situations, you might find that a particular Bayer
system does better than a particular 3-chip system, so it just depends on
what your taste in artifacts and what you're shooting.

Foveon suffers the problem the silicon being a poor color filter, so you
need significant noise reduction to deal with the color (which reduces
resolution...).

All these systems suffer from sampling artifacts.  You have to pick your
poison: at least one of (A) loss of resolution (B) aliasing (C) ringing
artifacts.  Ringing artifacts generally look the least bad when it comes to
image capture.  To get ringing artifacts, you have to oversample relative to
your final output.  This is why many/most 3-chip systems employ pixel
shifting.  So if you want sharp HD images with low aliasing (and lots of
ringing), then you need something like a 4K bayer sensor, 4K Foveon, 3
1920x1080 chips pixel shifted, 3 4K chips co-sited, etc.
The amount of optical low pass filtering affects the tradeoff between A and
B.  If you omit the OLPF, then you'd have high resolution and very high
aliasing (this wouldn't look very good).  So you don't really want 1920x1080
cameras with very crisp (e.g. high amplitude) 1920 lines of resolution.

The bottom line is that all the sensor arrangements have compromises.  There
are also compromises/tradeoffs like storage format, real-time processing
(hard to do high-quality RGGB Bayer demosaic in real-time), depth of field,
etc.

--Dynamic Range--
* Lower noise = higher dynamic range.  What you're really looking for is
lower noise in the camera.
* Higher depth of field can give the illusion of smoother rolloff in
highlights.  But this isn't actually capturing a higher dynamic range.
* Video knee and the s-curve transfer characteristic of film (or applying
s-shaped curves in color correction) can give the illusion of smoother
rolloff in highlights.
* You may be throwing away dynamic range in the image processing.
* You can throw away dynamic range in color correction by increasing the
gain and decreasing the pedestal in color correction.  Doing so will
increase contrast but also throw away dynamic range (shadows and highlights
will get clipped off).  Whereas applying a s-shaped curve won't clip detail
off.
You should do what looks good, but from a technical perspective (which
probably doesn't matter), this kind of color correction throws away dynamic
range.

* RAW processing:  Recording the image without white balance applied can
increase dynamic range.  White balance (done properly*) multiplies the
values of 1 or 2 of R, G, and B until R=G=B for objects that should be
achromatic.  *Some color correctors like the 3-way CC in FCP does not do
this, and doesn't really work.
You have to multiply these values by some number >= 1.0.  This will cause
some values to go above white level, and normally you will clip these values
off.  If you apply WB twice (e.g. you didn't nail it in the camera), then
this is even worse.  RAW recording+processing avoids double white balance.
Instead of clipping those values off, you can apply highlight recovery
algorithms to guess the missing data.  This works in most situations since
the dominant light source is a single color temperature.  It doesn't fully
work when you have lighting of different color temperatures (but it can look
ok).  A lot of the RAW processors do this for still images.  Red's software
tools does it for their camera.  The concept (recording without most image
processing, and highlight recovery in post) could be applied to other
cameras.

Glenn Chan
Colormancer.com
Toronto, Canada


From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri Feb 20 09:44:43 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:44:43 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
In-Reply-To: <e4dd10a30902191333t592c2047sc4cb2c8bd3244841@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e4dd10a30902191333t592c2047sc4cb2c8bd3244841@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0BA9B0CC-0DEC-47C9-AA35-51D87F7642B3@autotv.co.uk>


> On 19 Feb 2009, at 21:33, glenn chan wrote:
>>
>> --Sensor Arrangements--
>> The main types of sensor arrangements are:
>>
>> Bayer (RGGB); most common kind of Bayer
>> Bayer RGB stripe
>> 3-chip pixel shifted (different variations)
>> 3-chip co-sited
>> Foveon
>>


It rather seems to me that we can take a good example from "LRGB"  
Bayer-like nature of the human retina as to which approach is the  
most practical and efficient...

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
LONDON UK WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--
>




From jmann at postworks.com  Fri Feb 20 03:00:59 2009
From: jmann at postworks.com (Jim Mann)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:00:59 -0500
Subject: [Tig] WIFV Media Job Fair/added to TIG calender
Message-ID: <000901c99307$7566b810$60342830$@com>

I have a added a job fair in the DC area to the TIG calendar. In March..


http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

I have no connection with WIFV.


Jim Mann
Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist
[ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK
100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10013
T 212 894 4000
F 212 941 0439
C 516 250 0909
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann





______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
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From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk  Fri Feb 20 12:35:05 2009
From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:35:05 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
In-Reply-To: <mailman.287.1235131000.11769.tig@colorist.org>
References: <mailman.287.1235131000.11769.tig@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <499EA379.5060902@filmlight.ltd.uk>


> From: Adrian Thomas <adrian at autotv.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
>
> It rather seems to me that we can take a good example from "LRGB"  
> Bayer-like nature of the human retina as to which approach is the  
> most practical and efficient...
>   
The human eye as a camera isn't that great. I think Hemholtz said if he 
had optics like that he would take them back to the shop. The chromatic 
aberration is pretty shocking and there are large dead areas. The retina 
is apparently on backwards, with the sensors at the back and the nerves 
and blood vessels on the front.

The retina has a hexagonal packing, which is good for packing in cells, 
but it does mean you can get sampling artefacts in three directions 
instead of two. A square lattice is probably superior to a hexagonal one 
- though of course for every color matrix, there is an image that will 
make it look terrible.

The eye does not have a regular color matrix. It has red and green cells 
stirred in apparently at random, with large variations in the ratios. 
The blue detectors do seem to be spread out evenly but there are much 
less of these. The random nature of the distribution tends to mean that 
we do not get striking sampling problems, but there are sampling 
artifacts. If you stare at a blank white screen, you may see a green and 
magenta mottling pattern. If you defocus your eyes, you may see a larger 
blue and yellow mottling. These are called 'Fechner patterns' (same guy 
as did the Benham's top flicker experiments) and are probably arise from 
the long range component of the random distribution. There is not a lot 
you can do about this sort of artifact because the random 'blotchiness' 
has an amplitude which goes down as 1 / frequency rather than curring 
off sharply like a Bayer mosaic. If you filter the image then everything 
looks smoother and the flat areas look less contrasty, so the 
'crispening' effect just brings up what's left.

However, the brain usually fixes everything in post, so it all looks great.

Cheers.
Richard Kirk

-- 
FilmLight Ltd.  	Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct)
Artists House,		Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401
14-15 Manette Street    
London W1D 4AP





From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 20 13:09:50 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:09:50 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Tek SPG 422 sync gen standard switch
Message-ID: <2EDC3142-459D-480D-B076-02A3C6551C7F@colorist.org>

I need to switch a Tek SPG 422 sync generator from PAL to NTSC, and
am a little bit lost in the menu structure.  Could someone give me a
hint how to get to the menu item that switches standards?

thanks in advance.
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Fri Feb 20 13:32:20 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:32:20 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Red Camera: Pro & Con
In-Reply-To: <499EA379.5060902@filmlight.ltd.uk>
References: <mailman.287.1235131000.11769.tig@colorist.org>
	<499EA379.5060902@filmlight.ltd.uk>
Message-ID: <50C995AC-E217-45DD-8A9C-D5B9D497386F@autotv.co.uk>


On 20 Feb 2009, at 12:35, Richard Kirk wrote:
>>
> The human eye as a camera isn't that great. I think Hemholtz said  
> if he had optics like that he would take them back to the shop. The  
> chromatic aberration is pretty shocking and there are large dead  
> areas. The retina is apparently on backwards, with the sensors at  
> the back and the nerves and blood vessels on the front.
>

Hmmm... front-illuminated sensors are quite a good analogue of the  
retina structure (the wiring on a CMOS or CCD sensor is in front of  
the photodiode or well), and 'pixel-mapping' defective photosites is  
common practice everywhere.

> The retina has a hexagonal packing, which is good for packing in  
> cells, but it does mean you can get sampling artefacts in three  
> directions instead of two. A square lattice is probably superior to  
> a hexagonal one - though of course for every color matrix, there is  
> an image that will make it look terrible.
>

Fujifilm's SuperCCD uses a hexagonal matrix with its particular  
advantages and drawbacks.

> The eye does not have a regular color matrix. It has red and green  
> cells stirred in apparently at random, with large variations in the  
> ratios. The blue detectors do seem to be spread out evenly but  
> there are much less of these. The random nature of the distribution  
> tends to mean that we do not get striking sampling problems, but  
> there are sampling artifacts. If you stare at a blank white screen,  
> you may see a green and magenta mottling pattern. If you defocus  
> your eyes, you may see a larger blue and yellow mottling. These are  
> called 'Fechner patterns' (same guy as did the Benham's top flicker  
> experiments) and are probably arise from the long range component  
> of the random distribution. There is not a lot you can do about  
> this sort of artifact because the random 'blotchiness' has an  
> amplitude which goes down as 1 / frequency rather than curring off  
> sharply like a Bayer mosaic. If you filter the image then  
> everything looks smoother and the flat areas look less contrasty,  
> so the 'crispening' effect just brings up what's left.
>
> However, the brain usually fixes everything in post, so it all  
> looks great.
>

...but this is the crux of the matter! Bayer designs are similarly  
explicitly reliant on powerful image processing to achieve their  
results. Look at a current Bayer-CFA consumer grade 'digicam' or  
camcorder, the image processor is not just providing de-mosaicing,  
but auto-exposure (using fairly sophisticated scene recognition in  
many cases) autofocus (tracking movement in 3 axes and even patterns  
such as FACE RECOGNITION) and now also correction for optical defects  
such as lateral chromatic aberration and geometric distortion. It's  
even more interesting when you realise that on these small-sensor  
cameras the Bayer CFA is operating beyond  the diffraction limits of  
the optical system anyway, so some of the artifacts inherent in  
sampling different colours at discrete positions will not arise.

As I said, evolution does tend towards the most practically efficient  
approach to a design problem.

>

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
LONDON UK WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 20 16:23:10 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:23:10 +0200
Subject: [Tig] spg 422 menus cracked
Message-ID: <52CF59F9-FCAC-410F-BB82-F06AE1F0524A@colorist.org>

I found the menu structure for standards change, it's a feature of some
spg 422s that the Serial Signals feature allows independent setting of
video standard, which kind of threw me.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From carl at stopp.se  Fri Feb 20 17:29:03 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:29:03 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>

Hi all

wanted to check around how people are archiving Digital Footage, like Arri D20/21, Dalsa, Red etc etc

Does everyone use LTO3/4 tapes?

What software are you using?

I would like to start using a format that I know I can send to other posthouses.


/carl


Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22



From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 20 20:56:36 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:56:36 +0200
Subject: [Tig] new postings to tig wiki
Message-ID: <A995DF9B-C3FE-4607-8F03-D83C683FC2E9@colorist.org>

tig TIGNABFS09 (the tig nab focus sheet for 2009) has some new  
entries, at

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09

so far we have Digital Vision, Flanders Scientific, and FilmLight.

other vendors are encouraged to send me their entries.

And:

we have a couple of new entries in the TIG classifieds.

a Lustre for sale, for example, and perhaps some other new entries since
the last update.

please contact me for questions or updates.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 20 21:11:31 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:11:31 +0200
Subject: [Tig] tig wiki postings
Message-ID: <75B4EE04-064D-4368-AD8E-1D4FCEBC1CBC@colorist.org>

the GoogleMaps option for the TIG wiki is powerful, and I don't see  
anyone
using it yet (calendar entries in particular):

http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From jack at surrealroad.com  Sat Feb 21 09:59:45 2009
From: jack at surrealroad.com (Jack James)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:59:45 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <e9fa7d400902210159wff8bf29r9cb8522bf9538554@mail.gmail.com>

I've always used LTO3. I use the built-in windows backup, although the
performance isn't as good. I used to use HP or Symantec software for
backups, but the problem with this is that they both format the tapes using
proprietary system, which means that in a few years time (or if it needs to
be sent somewhere else), it's not likely i'll be able to find the right
software to decompress it. Windows backup on the other hand, hasn't changed
at all in the way it formats for several years, so compatibility in the
future is much more likely.
Recently though, I've been looking into other options.
I like the idea of dumping a load of data on a drobo and then booting it up
once a year to check for corruption, as I believe this will lead to a more
cost-effective system in the long run.


On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Carl Skaff <carl at stopp.se> wrote:

> 2077 subscribers as of February 2009
> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.
> Lynette Duensing supports the TIG.
>  ====
>
>
> Hi all
>
> wanted to check around how people are archiving Digital Footage, like Arri
> D20/21, Dalsa, Red etc etc
>
> Does everyone use LTO3/4 tapes?
>
> What software are you using?
>
> I would like to start using a format that I know I can send to other
> posthouses.
>
>
> /carl
>
>
> Carl Skaff
> _____________________
> Head of Telecine
> Stockholm Postproduction
> www.stopp.se
> phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
> fax:     +46 8 32 77 22
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://reels.colorist.org
> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3
>



-- 
Surreal Road
Emmunicate Insatiably...
www.surrealroad.com



Please recycle this email to prevent excess bytes clogging up the internet


From jdhouston at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 21 01:28:05 2009
From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:28:05 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>


On Feb 20, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Carl Skaff wrote:
>
> Does everyone use LTO3/4 tapes?

Yes, mostly.  Although sometimes folks will put data files into HDCAM- 
SR tapes for ingest later.

>
> What software are you using?

good old 'tar'.

Jim Houston
Starwatcher Digital




From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net  Sat Feb 21 13:33:07 2009
From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:33:07 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <e9fa7d400902210159wff8bf29r9cb8522bf9538554@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<e9fa7d400902210159wff8bf29r9cb8522bf9538554@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A00293.6050406@free.fr>

"it's not likely i'll be able to find the rightsoftware to decompress 
it. Windows backup on the other hand, hasn't changedat all in the way it 
formats for several years, so compatibility in thefuture is much more 
likely."

Wintar does a pretty good job, and it's compatible with Unix tar, so 
portability to Mac/Linux/whateverix is possible, which can be interesting.

Cedric Lejeune
www.workflowers.net
pipelines&workflows
La Madeleine, France



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sat Feb 21 16:38:13 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:38:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Jim Houston wrote:
>> 
>> What software are you using?
>
> good old 'tar'.

Is this a Microsoft Windows product? :-)

I would definitely trust a standards-conformant (POSIX) 'tar' over any 
proprietary format such as Windows backup.  Even tar files created by 
pre-standard versions of 'tar' can still be extracted by current 
versions of 'tar' some 30 years later.  Tar was first available in 
1979!

Note that 'tar' commands often offer several available subformats so 
it is wise to read the documentation.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com  Sat Feb 21 21:08:52 2009
From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:08:52 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>

As someone who has sent and received tar'd tapes. It always helpful to  
list on the label how the tar was created, especially the blocking  
factor used.

Since I often just scripted the tar, I would usually also print the  
script for the label. It also let's the receiver know how and what was  
tar'd to the tape.

Erik
"Data Utility"
Modern VideoFilm

---
All grammar and spelling errors due to fat thumbs and a virtual  
keyboard.


From lundo at lundissimo.info  Sat Feb 21 21:46:10 2009
From: lundo at lundissimo.info (Robert Lund)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:46:10 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <49A07622.2040809@lundissimo.info>

Apparently the DTV transition can lead to problems for some users:

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174518-KARE_Man_Shoots_TV_Over_Converter_Confusion.php?rssid=20065



From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb 22 07:51:52 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:51:52 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
Message-ID: <5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>

cpio(1L) has some definite advantages over tar(1).


On Feb 21, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Erik Hansen wrote:

> As someone who has sent and received tar'd tapes. It always helpful  
> to list on the label how the tar was created, especially the  
> blocking factor used.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb 22 15:30:41 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:30:41 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
In-Reply-To: <49A07622.2040809@lundissimo.info>
References: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902061130030.12379@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<49A07622.2040809@lundissimo.info>
Message-ID: <50FDF351-3C0F-4C76-BED8-A608D59FC2A0@colorist.org>


On Feb 21, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Robert Lund wrote:

> Apparently the DTV transition can lead to problems for some users:


there was an Ed Abbey book, his last before death as I remember, where  
he shot his
TV dead.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Sun Feb 22 17:26:06 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:26:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
	<5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> cpio(1L) has some definite advantages over tar(1).

This used to be true but now modern tar has incorporated the cpio 
formats and capabilities.  It is necessary to read the documentation 
for tar since modern tar programs often provide the ability to write 
five or six different 'tar' formats, including some which are 
identical to cpio.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From jeffcee at shaw.ca  Sun Feb 22 17:37:52 2009
From: jeffcee at shaw.ca (Jeff Christopherson)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:37:52 -0700
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
Message-ID: <A5E8C863-08F0-4D5E-8ACC-0EF096B25448@shaw.ca>

Currently at a facility in Europe we are using Symantec's Backup Exec  
on a Windows 2008 server. I agree that this is a problem for future  
recovery as I know this application uses some proprietary method in  
laying the data onto tape.

  I don't like the way the application interfaces with me. It is  
rather cryptic in its verbiage and help files are written for sys- 
admin types who keep a notepad next to their computer. It does keep a  
nice database of its efforts although it takes some training to deal  
with it.

I would also suggest that you go with tar on a nice Linux box. It's  
most likely to be there when you need it in the future. The remaining  
task is to keep a good database of your archived material, and of  
course a working LTO3 or 4 drive.


Good Luck.
Jeff Christopherson
DI guy at large.
Calgary, AB., Canada.


-------
+32 (0)479.959.950 ( GSM Belgium )
+1 (403)708.3452   ( GSM Canada )
Skype: jeffc_calgary



From rob at colorist.org  Sun Feb 22 19:55:40 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:55:40 +0200
Subject: [Tig] SAG negotiations
Message-ID: <415720DB-8954-4392-B147-ED39E2E6C3A0@colorist.org>

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/actors-union-rejects-final-offer/?hp

looks like trouble on the horizon as if we needed more.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From bobfesta at mac.com  Mon Feb 23 05:12:49 2009
From: bobfesta at mac.com (Bob Festa)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:12:49 -0800
Subject: [Tig] JC Penney
Message-ID: <B838AF92-E22F-4D85-98E2-58030E1512CC@mac.com>

So all told, a very enjoyable Academy Awards show eh?

IMHO I have to say that the greatest images of the evening came from  
the JC Penney campaign.

Dynamic HD presentation, Bullet proof release print blacks, and a  
killer hi key mid-tone with great saturation.

Who can tell us about the image acquisition, workflow, and color  
grading?

Awesome work, my best to all involved.

Bob
___________________
Bob Festa	   NewHat.TV
1819 Colorado Avenue
Santa Monica, CA 90409
310 401-2220




From kaspar at duograaf.ee  Mon Feb 23 08:42:47 2009
From: kaspar at duograaf.ee (Kaspar Kallas)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:42:47 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
	<5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>

Hi

We used LTO 2 years ago but since then the HDD prices have dropped significantly so we keep everything on HDD's for better access and faster corruption detection. (also had some problems reading from LTO's after a while (had a dedicated box running gentoo, all LTO's were TAR))
All backups are made in 2, each drive is kept physically in different location (in case of burglary, fire etc.). Once a year disk is checked, if problem arrises then we just fetch b-copy and clone it again.
So far, so good (we have been rather careless about FS, so far most is HFS and some are NTFS)

Kaspar Kallas
Digitalsputnik
Estonia


From alanr at bhphoto.com  Mon Feb 23 15:09:59 2009
From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:09:59 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Who will bail out the broadcasters?
In-Reply-To: <50FDF351-3C0F-4C76-BED8-A608D59FC2A0@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C28B054@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local>

Like Elvis did...

Alan Rosenfeld
The Studio - B&H

there was an Ed Abbey book, his last before death as I remember, where
he shot his
TV dead.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org





_______________________________________________
http://reels.colorist.org
http://www.colorist.org/wiki3



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon Feb 23 17:56:21 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:56:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
	<5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231129470.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Kaspar Kallas wrote:
>
> We used LTO 2 years ago but since then the HDD prices have dropped 
> significantly so we keep everything on HDD's for better access and 
> faster corruption detection. (also had some problems reading from 
> LTO's after a while (had a dedicated box running gentoo, all LTO's 
> were TAR)) All backups are made in 2, each drive is kept physically 
> in different location (in case of burglary, fire etc.). Once a year 
> disk is checked, if problem arrises then we just fetch b-copy and 
> clone it again. So far, so good (we have been rather careless about 
> FS, so far most is HFS and some are NTFS)

This may be a good time to re-advertise a little white paper I wrote 
about application of Sun's ZFS filesystem to digital intermediate:

http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/zfs-discuss/zfs-and-di.pdf

This pooled filesystem is capable of easily scaling from USB-drive 
size up to hundreds of terrabytes and beyond.  Creating a new storage 
pool, or extending an existing storage pool, takes just a second. 
Every read is verified via a checksum so that any data corruption is 
immediately apparent, and will be automatically corrected if a 
redundant storage strategy was used.  There is a 'scrub' operation 
which is used to validate the integrity of all stored data while it 
remains on-line, and correct any bad or weak blocks.  It is easy to 
'export' and 'import' ZFS storage pools by name so that they can be 
used to archive data or transport data between systems.  An arbitrary 
number of snapshots (permanently available point in time) may be 
taken, which take less than a second to complete.  There is a way to 
'send' filesystem data (using snapshot differencing) to a replica 
filesystem which could be on the other side of the globe, and can act 
as a live backup.

Disk drives can be notoriously unreliable but by using a redundant 
storage strategy like ZFS's "raidz2" the storage system hardware would 
literally "turn to dust" within the mathematical probability of losing 
data within the specified service life of the hardware.  When the mean 
time to data loss (MTTDL) is several orders of magnitude longer than 
the crumbling pyramids in Egypt have existed, then the storage 
strategy has been sufficiently over-engineered.

ZFS is available in Sun's Solaris, OpenSolaris, FreeBSD 7.X, Apple's 
forthcoming OS-X Snow Leopard, and Linux via FUSE.  There are various 
projects under way to make it available on more systems.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From lucas at assimilateinc.com  Mon Feb 23 18:24:35 2009
From: lucas at assimilateinc.com (Lucas Wilson)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:24:35 -0800
Subject: [Tig] JC Penney
In-Reply-To: <B838AF92-E22F-4D85-98E2-58030E1512CC@mac.com>
References: <B838AF92-E22F-4D85-98E2-58030E1512CC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <002001c995e3$fd15f800$f741e800$@com>

Hi Bob,

I don't know about the post on these spots, but a close friend of mine is
the Wardrobe Stylist for JC Penney print and broadcast. She'll be happy to
hear this! : )

Best,

Lucas Wilson
------------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Festa

So all told, a very enjoyable Academy Awards show eh?

IMHO I have to say that the greatest images of the evening came from  
the JC Penney campaign.

Dynamic HD presentation, Bullet proof release print blacks, and a  
killer hi key mid-tone with great saturation.

Who can tell us about the image acquisition, workflow, and color  
grading?

Awesome work, my best to all involved.

Bob
___________________
Bob Festa	   NewHat.TV
1819 Colorado Avenue
Santa Monica, CA 90409
310 401-2220





From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon Feb 23 20:06:17 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 14:06:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231129470.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
	<5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231129470.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231404430.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
>
> This may be a good time to re-advertise a little white paper I wrote about 
> application of Sun's ZFS filesystem to digital intermediate:

I forgot to mention that I have no interest in Sun other than as a 
(usually) satisfied user.  I also forgot to mention that the ZFS 
implementation is open-sourced and may be used for free.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk  Mon Feb 23 19:32:41 2009
From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA))
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:32:41 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se><6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net><Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org><06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com><5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org><Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
Message-ID: <C7BC0F4C47C4214DAE9AFC6C98BA7EEE0176FD48@UEAEXCHCLUS01.UEA.AC.UK>

That's quite interesting, because we're actually going the other way - currently storing everything on HDD, but looking to go LTO (because of the price) is just cheaper. 

How much corruption detection does LTO require?  How often do tapes need to be checked?

If anybody could spare a few minutes to write down a quick list of software too that'd aid me greatly.  Starting from scratch is always more difficult than having a bit of information to start one's research from.

Thanks,

Peter White
Head of Technical Development

East Anglian Film Archive




	We used LTO 2 years ago but since then the HDD prices have dropped significantly so we keep everything on HDD's for better access and faster corruption detection. 



From bob at bluescreen.com  Mon Feb 23 21:28:04 2009
From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:28:04 -0800
Subject: [Tig] JC Penney
In-Reply-To: <B838AF92-E22F-4D85-98E2-58030E1512CC@mac.com>
References: <B838AF92-E22F-4D85-98E2-58030E1512CC@mac.com>
Message-ID: <0l46q4p99hhmlqj0coeo7u7a0m77vd0hs5@4ax.com>

>IMHO I have to say that the greatest images of the evening came from  
>the JC Penney campaign.

>Dynamic HD presentation, Bullet proof release print blacks, and a  
>killer hi key mid-tone with great saturation.

>Awesome work, my best to all involved.

Have to agree. Found myself rolling the TiVo back a couple of times to watch
them again. 

A terrific example of commercial art direction, shooting, and finish that
showed off the product beautifully without the usual "shaky-cam"
"make-it-green-or-blue"  tragically hip, narcissistic "look-what-I-can-do"
nonsense which seems to be the substitute for good ideas with great execution
these days.

Congrats to all on the project.

--Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California
bob at bluescreen.com

The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing.  
For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com



From doctorossi at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 21:27:09 2009
From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:27:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Tig] JC Penney
In-Reply-To: <002001c995e3$fd15f800$f741e800$@com>
Message-ID: <73286.93759.qm@web57708.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Ha ha! That's so great to see because I had the very same thought! Those spots were the real standout for me from a production-values standpoint.

Schuyler Dunn


> IMHO I have to say that the greatest images of the evening came from the 
> JC Penney campaign.


      



From jdboyd at jdboyd.net  Mon Feb 23 21:29:59 2009
From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:29:59 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231129470.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
	<5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231129470.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <20090223212959.GC14082@jdboyd82.jdboyd.net>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 11:56:21AM -0600, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:
> ZFS is available in Sun's Solaris, OpenSolaris, FreeBSD 7.X, Apple's 
> forthcoming OS-X Snow Leopard, and Linux via FUSE.  There are various 
> projects under way to make it available on more systems.

For users of leopard, ZFS is available here:
http://zfs.macosforge.org/trac/wiki

BTW, Apple is now saying that on Snow Leopard, ZFS will only come with the server 
edition.

My affiliation with Apple is as a trailing edge customer.  My affiliation with Sun and 
ZFS is as a leach of their open source products and user of old used hardware.

--
Joshua D. Boyd
Software Engineer



From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Mon Feb 23 23:15:29 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:15:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <20090223212959.GC14082@jdboyd82.jdboyd.net>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se>
	<6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com>
	<5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231129470.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<20090223212959.GC14082@jdboyd82.jdboyd.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902231701500.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Joshua Boyd wrote:
>
> For users of leopard, ZFS is available here:
> http://zfs.macosforge.org/trac/wiki
>
> BTW, Apple is now saying that on Snow Leopard, ZFS will only come with the server
> edition.

Yes.  That is actually all they have ever formally announced.  Since 
there is already preliminary software for Leopard, one can easily 
imagine a downloadable supplement to enable ZFS for the client 
edition.

The server version of OS-X is very expensive.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From ted at tedlangdell.com  Tue Feb 24 06:01:26 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 22:01:26 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Archiving Digital footage
In-Reply-To: <C7BC0F4C47C4214DAE9AFC6C98BA7EEE0176FD48@UEAEXCHCLUS01.UEA.AC.UK>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E81F1@exchange.stopp.se><6F0C5D7C-CF13-409C-ADF6-796D48B5AF22@earthlink.net><Pine.SOC.4.64.0902211024380.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org><06B6BCBA-0681-41AA-B88D-65728CF078A4@monkeyswithchopstix.com><5CBD57C1-C381-46E1-98BE-462CED0DB0A0@colorist.org><Pine.SOC.4.64.0902221122040.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
	<56635.88.196.93.86.1235378567.squirrel@88.196.93.86>
	<C7BC0F4C47C4214DAE9AFC6C98BA7EEE0176FD48@UEAEXCHCLUS01.UEA.AC.UK>
Message-ID: <A2C55B93-16FA-48C3-94BB-E5F9AF6D85D4@tedlangdell.com>

Hi, Peter,

You might want to look through the AMIA-List archives,
Search page:  http://lsv.uky.edu/scripts/wa.exe?S1=amia-l

as this subject has been popping up there over more than three years  
that I've been reading that list.

One Subject to look for is "[AMIA-L] Recrunching the numbers on  
storage costs" which Jim Lindner did on June 24, 2008.

The topic came up Dec. 23-26 on the list under "LTO" in a thread  
started by Martha Singer.  Jim Lindner and several other people piped  
up.

And it's come up most recently on Feb. 6-13 under the subject "Re:  
[AMIA-L] Archiving Video"

Main link:	http://lsv.uky.edu/archives/amia-l.html

Hope this is helpful to you and other TIG'ers.

Ted


On Feb 23, 2009, at 11:32 AM, White Peter Mr (EAFA) wrote:
> That's quite interesting, because we're actually going the other way  
> - currently storing everything on HDD, but looking to go LTO  
> (because of the price) is just cheaper.
>
> How much corruption detection does LTO require?  How often do tapes  
> need to be checked?
>
> If anybody could spare a few minutes to write down a quick list of  
> software too that'd aid me greatly.  Starting from scratch is always  
> more difficult than having a bit of information to start one's  
> research from.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter White
> Head of Technical Development
>
> East Anglian Film Archive

Ted Langdell
Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services
Marysville, CA
Main:   (530) 741-1212
Skype: 	TedLangdell

tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative  
Services since 1974





From riza at silver.co.uk  Tue Feb 24 15:49:40 2009
From: riza at silver.co.uk (Riza Nur Pacalioglu)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:49:40 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Film out from SR?
In-Reply-To: <SUPPORT-%%memberid%%-%%outmail.messageid%%-2009.02.24-13.21.23--%%poundemail%%@%%site.domainname%%>
References: <SUPPORT-\%%memberid\%%-\%%outmail.messageid\%%-2009.02.24-06.59.13--\%%poundemail\%%@\%%site.domainname\%%>
	<SUPPORT-%%memberid%%-%%outmail.messageid%%-2009.02.24-13.21.23--%%poundemail%%@%%site.domainname%%>
Message-ID: <1B944564D0B4C343B0C4FDC4B796E596557200E077@MBX73.ad2.softcom.biz>

I am in the market for a facility who can create 35mm film out from HDCAM SR tape of a 76 minute feature film.

Please email me off list if you offer such a list and on or off-list if you have any suggestions.

Many thanks in advance

Riza Nur Pacalioglu
Producer
Silver Productions, Salisbury, England
http://silver.co.uk





From rob at colorist.org  Tue Feb 24 16:23:44 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:23:44 +0200
Subject: [Tig] JC Penney spot on Academy Awards
Message-ID: <92DD3E3A-988A-4114-86EB-E1985E20FC58@colorist.org>

We haven't heard anything on the group about the JC Penney commercial  
which was deemed so
praiseworthy.

could someone enlighten us, who did the grading, scanning, post, etc.?


--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Tue Feb 24 17:26:08 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:26:08 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Fwd:  JC Penney spot on Academy Awards
References: <76C43032-8422-44D3-ACE1-B1B745DB91DA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2B3ADF79-90A3-4539-B353-6D1598C21504@colorist.org>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Bob Festa <bobfesta at mac.com>
> Date: February 24, 2009 7:15:07 PM GMT+02:00
> To: Bob Festa <bobfesta at mac.com>
> Cc: Rob Lingelbach <rob at colorist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tig] JC Penney spot on Academy Awards
>
> Sorry all,
>
> We had a winner on this one. Beth Pearson from Motiv identified the  
> talent as:
>
> Joe Roman		Dir
> Manuel Bardaji	DP
>
> Post is still unidentified.
> ___________________
> Bob Festa
> 1819 Colorado Avenue
> Santa Monica, CA 90409
> 310 401-2220  bobfesta.com
>
>> On Feb 24, 2009, at 8:23 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>>> We haven't heard anything on the group about the JC Penney  
>>> commercial which was deemed so
>>> praiseworthy.
>>>
>

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From rob at colorist.org  Wed Feb 25 18:10:47 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 20:10:47 +0200
Subject: [Tig] upcoming events
Message-ID: <73070E6B-D681-4A9E-96FD-36C8C055BBB5@colorist.org>

on the TIG calendar at
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main

as of Feb. 25th:

Today: SMPTE NY section meeting
             Filmmakers Connection Meeting, Dix Hills, NY
             SMPTE Sacramento section meeting
Tomorrow:
             NY Mayor's Office of Film, Theatre, Broadcasting and  
others, Apollo Theatre
              AVID RED event, Virtual Media, NYC

March 7:
              WIFV Job Fair, Atlantic Video, Wash. DC

March 11, 12:
              Digital Vision, AVID, RED Event, NYC

March 24:
              SMPTE Hollywood & ASC Tech Digital Leader Demonstration,  
Hollywood

April 18-23:
              NAB, Las Vegas
April 21:
               2nd Annual Informal NAB Lunch for Quad tape, editors,  
telecine

for more details please see the calendar entries themselves.

Rob
--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From ted at tedlangdell.com  Fri Feb 27 04:26:34 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:26:34 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Rank Cintel MkIII Shot Change Detector Card info sought
In-Reply-To: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055940BB014EB@HAIL.emerson.edu>
References: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055940BB014EB@HAIL.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <3D9C4267-E286-4155-9947-0C4BCF298F8F@tedlangdell.com>

Posted to the TIG at the request of Paul Beck... who hopes some Rank  
Mk III maintainers can help with his problem.

Paul's involved with the The Museum of Broadcast Technology in  
Woonsocket, RI http://www.wmbt.org/

On Feb 26, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Paul Beck wrote:
> The wonderful Rank Cintel III series of Film Scanner products had a  
> special component used in colour correction called “The Shot  
> Changer Detector Card” and was a device used to sense scene changes  
> on the film as it ran through the unit, and then triggered a  
> sequenced or pre-determined change of the colour balance values, on  
> a scene-to-scene basis.
>
>  Rank provided two versions of the circuit card… the “old” version  
> and the “new” version.
>
>  We are seeking to obtain a schematic and hopefully a full manual  
> with details on the “new” version of that “Shot Changer Detection  
> Card.”
>
> The Rank folks in the US were not able to assist for some reason,  
> so we are knocking on a global scale for the best data we can obtain.
>
>  We will cover all duplication and mailing/shipping costs.
>  Many thanks from Boston.
>
> Paul R. Beck
> Television, Radio & Film Group
> Emerson College
> 120 Boylston Street
> Boston, MA  02116      617-824-8834     FAX: 617-824-8856


Thanks on Paul's behalf.
His e-mail is Paul_Beck (at) emerson.edu.

Ted

Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us
209 East 12th Street
Marysville, CA 95901
Main: 	(530) 741-1212
Cell:	(530) 301-2931 Call this number Feb. 28-Mar-10

The flashtransfer Demo Tour is underway!
Call or e-mail ted at flashscan8us for an appointment.




From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk  Fri Feb 27 07:51:11 2009
From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:51:11 -0000
Subject: [Tig] Rank Cintel MkIII Shot Change Detector Card info sought
In-Reply-To: <3D9C4267-E286-4155-9947-0C4BCF298F8F@tedlangdell.com>
References: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055940BB014EB@HAIL.emerson.edu>
	<3D9C4267-E286-4155-9947-0C4BCF298F8F@tedlangdell.com>
Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD45@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>

Any chance of getting some more info off the card - part number etc? I
can't remember if Rank licensed the BBC-designed SCD. A photo would
probably be very helpful!


	Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources
	Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ

	T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 
	http://www.bbcresources.com 
	BBC Resources Limited
	Registered Number 3593793 England
	Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ


From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 27 07:58:20 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 09:58:20 +0200
Subject: [Tig] another calendar event
Message-ID: <6874BED2-75D5-4C28-9E83-1BBEDFA7A1FA@colorist.org>

HD Expo at Universal City, CA, Color Camp 101, March 6-8, see
http://www.hdexpo.net for details
(I haven't checked the website but it should be there somewhere)

Rob

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From clive at cinesite.co.uk  Fri Feb 27 08:46:27 2009
From: clive at cinesite.co.uk (Clive Haward)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:46:27 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Rank Cintel MkIII Shot Change Detector Card info sought
In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD45@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
References: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055940BB014EB@HAIL.emerson.edu>	<3D9C4267-E286-4155-9947-0C4BCF298F8F@tedlangdell.com>
	<244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BD45@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49A7A863.30400@cinesite.co.uk>

I'll dig around in the loft this weekend not sure if I still have my Mk3 
handbooks, I know I still do have all the Ursa and C-Reality ones, so 
maybe the Mk3 one is there.
-- 

Clive Haward - Technical Services
Cinesite (Europe) Ltd, Medius House, 2 Sheraton Street, London, W1F 8BH

Tel: +44 (0)20 79734000
Fax: +44 (0)20 7973 4042
Email: clive at cinesite.co.uk
Web: http://www.cinesite.com


From carl at stopp.se  Fri Feb 27 14:03:12 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:03:12 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>

Hi

I'm trying to get in contact with some mayor film-archives around the globe to discuss the future of archiving film witch is rapidly going tarward digital.

So if anyone could give me a contact at your "local" film-archive facility.
Here in Sweden almost all negatives are stored in Rotebro witch is a part of the swedish film institute.

So if you work for such a company or know someone that does... pease let me know, on or off list.

/carl



Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22



From mikko.kuutti at kava.fi  Fri Feb 27 15:59:54 2009
From: mikko.kuutti at kava.fi (Mikko Kuutti)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:59:54 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <2EA957C2-2D2D-46B1-8E11-EC321D7D5A72@kava.fi>

Hi Carl,

In Finland, the legal deposit body for film originals and a print is  
the National Audiovisual Archive.

We're still fully analogue like most of our peer organisations around  
the world, but as film disappears from the output end of the  
production chain, we'll have to go digital.

But we still have a couple of years because to date, no Finnish  
feature film has been distributed solely in digital format, and we  
only get the materials 5 years after the film has been finished.

Best regards,

Mikko

Mikko Kuutti
Deputy Director
National Audiovisual Archive
Pursimiehenkatu 29-31 A / P.O. Box 177, FI-00151 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455


From nicola.mazzanti.95 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 16:23:59 2009
From: nicola.mazzanti.95 at gmail.com (nicola mazzanti)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:23:59 +0100
Subject: [Tig] R:  Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <005a01c998f7$cc5f9510$16b2a8c0@your269cf67436>

Dear Carl, 

I suggest that you contact the local (i.e. Scandinavian) FIAFArchives (you
can find a list in the FIAF website http://www.fiafnet.org/ at membership
information). FIAF as International Federation of Film Archives. The
archives from Denmark, Finland (hi Mikko!) and Norway are all active in the
field (more than others, since they have a legal deposit and a long
tradition of Digital Intermediates. 
Or you can contact the FIAF Technical Commission (also on the Webiste). 
 
I also suggest that you take a look at the EU project EDCINE
(http://www.ledoux.be/edcine/ and
http://www.edcine.org/edcine/documents/public/ ) since the archival part of
the project is dealing specifically with storage and access of D-Cinema
materials or, more generally, of high quality content (i.e. higher than
SDTV). The project is having demonstrations coming up (Valencia, March 4-6,
Erlangen May 19, London May 28, Brussels June 19) where this issue - among
others - will be discussed. 

Or contact me off list. 

Best regards

Nicola Mazzanti 
Consultant
EDCine project
Cinèmathèque Royale de Belgique
FIAF Technical Commission


From peter.white at uea.ac.uk  Fri Feb 27 16:25:10 2009
From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:25:10 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>

Hi Carl,

Echo'ing the same sentiments as Mikko - It'll be a long time until  
archives are 'full digital', mainly because we'll never get rid of an  
original film.

For most archives, digital is just a means of distribution and  
getting the stuff seen but as more and more is created digitally  
we'll have to not only migrate out digital access copies but also  
actual masters.

Feel free to contact me off-list.  We're a 'large' regional archive  
in the UK.

Regards,

Peter White
Head of Technical Development

East Anglian Film Archive


From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 27 16:38:26 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:38:26 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>


On Feb 27, 2009, at 6:25 PM, Peter White wrote:

> Echo'ing the same sentiments as Mikko - It'll be a long time until  
> archives are 'full digital', mainly because we'll never get rid of  
> an original film.

there was some interesting research being done regarding archiving  
digitally on film.  we know the life of film- at least 70-100 years.    
The information on the film would be digital, in a kind of pattern...   
someone on the list should know a lot more than I
about it.

When you pause to think, it's like the tail wagging the dog, the cart  
before the horse, coming full circle...

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org







From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb 27 17:31:38 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:31:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902271118050.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote:
>
> there was some interesting research being done regarding archiving 
> digitally on film.  we know the life of film- at least 70-100 years. 
> The information on the film would be digital, in a kind of 
> pattern...  someone on the list should know a lot more than I about 
> it.

Assuming that there is funding to support it, it makes sense to 
"digitize" the film for long term archiving, as well as to archive the 
original film elements.  The gradual degredation of film is well 
understood.  The long term "degredation" of digital is not so well 
understood, but the nature of "digital" is that binary ones and zeros 
may be stored for any length of time without any loss provided that 
the digital content is periodically migrated to new storage media, 
refreshing the strength of those binary "ones and zeros".

With a film element, every analog copy is a bit different and each 
copy degrades differently over time.  With digital, every copy is 
identical.

Our ability to store digital data grows by leaps and bounds.  The two 
(or more) terrabyte of storage required to store a feature film 
becomes less and less significant.  In a year or two it will fit on a 
single hard drive.  In 10 or 15 years, that storage may ammount to 
nothing more than a mote of dust swirling on the floor as far as 
digital storage capabilities are concerned.  Consider that in the '80s 
a floppy-disk full of data was considered to be large amount of data, 
but now a typical email message contains the equivalent of a 
floppy-disk full of data, and we don't think twice about it.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From jfmann at optimum.net  Fri Feb 27 18:19:25 2009
From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:19:25 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <009401c99907$ec106cd0$c4314670$@net>


You might want to look into the Association of Moving Image Archivists at:



http://www.amianet.org/index.php



http://www.amianet.org/participate/listserv.php

They also have a list of which I am a former member, but I just couldn't keep up with all the traffic. 




Jim Mann
Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist 
[ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK
100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10013
T 212 894 4000
C 516-250-0909
F 212 941 0439
http://www.postworks.com
http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.










From lunarfilms at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 27 17:13:32 2009
From: lunarfilms at mindspring.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:13:32 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <FF120016-6A3B-4011-A007-8DDFA66DF924@cinelab.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
	<FF120016-6A3B-4011-A007-8DDFA66DF924@cinelab.com>
Message-ID: <E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>


> there was some interesting research being done regarding archiving  
> digitally on film.  we know the life of film- at least 70-100 years.

Considering that there is no known method of reliably storing digital  
information over a long period of time, as no media is proven  
reliable, and the issue of constant migration to newer data formats  
means missing one migration or any neglect and the asset is most  
likely gone for good. I believe most budgeted films are being shot to  
YCM separations on estar based B+W stock with the potential for a  
millennia of life if stored properly.

My basic feeling about any digital "archive" is that it is not neglect  
tolerant and that the whole process is highly consumptive of energy  
and materials as the 'Vapor" of digital information has no  
consistently reliable container to be stored in.

We have worked on archive assets which are about 100 years old and  
looked to be in almost original shape B+W especially but also  
Kodachrome from the mid 30's which was as new...

-Rob-


Robert Houllahan
lunarfilms at mindspring.com
Filmmaker / Cinematographer
VP Cinelab Inc.
www.cinelab.com




From Paul_Beck at emerson.edu  Fri Feb 27 19:37:16 2009
From: Paul_Beck at emerson.edu (Paul Beck)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:37:16 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Many thanks to all and deeper clarifications on the Rank
	Cintel	circuit card being sought
Message-ID: <20EBF4F2D8307E4EAF71464CBE0055940BB01521@HAIL.emerson.edu>

From:  Paul Beck  Paul_Beck at emerson.edu

          Tom Sprague trs at TheWorld.com; tom.sprague at verizon.net

 

Friday, February 27, 2009 

 

 

Hello good Film & Video Colleagues who have so kindly responded to the
world-wide query on technical data for some specific Rank Cintel
information

 

Here's the clear data on the desired item in the "Shot Change Detector."

 

We have two of these boards. One appears to be older and the other
appears to be newer. 

 

We do have complete documentation for the older board. That board is the
101109A. So we already have that one.

 

The numbers printed on the newer board are either worn or baked off and
they are really illegible, so we are not certain what board it really
is.

 

We do know some of the differences: 

 

*         In the older board (The 101109A), the inputs and outputs are
buffered by discrete transistors. 

*         On the newer board, whatever it is, the inputs and outputs are
buffered by ICs. 

*         The video input is buffered by a CA-3045 (or CA-3046) which is
really just a bunch of transistors in an IC. 

*         The pulse inputs are buffered by a 26LS32 which was intended
to be an RS422 line receiver, but of course, there is

             no RS422 here, just pulses.

 

Our goal is to use these boards as stand-alone scene change detectors. 

 

A few years ago Tom Sprague modified the older board to work on a
stand-alone basis for 525i video. It actually works very well.

 

The newer board is being modified to work with 1080 23.98Psf video. 

 

At this point Tom has that board installed in a prototype system which
appears to be mostly working. 

It will be used on a PBS Nova project next week, so we do not want to
fiddle with it and risk damage for next week's project.

 

Both of these boards use technology licensed from the BBC. It's a really
an amazing system that detects scene changes (i.e. cut edits) 

with almost 100% accuracy with very little hardware.

 

The older board, modified for 525i video, required a number of circuit
changes to allow it to lock properly to H and V. 

 

At present Tom is driving the newer board with H and V pulses from 1080
23.98 Psf video and is certain that it is not locking perfectly. 

 

None the less, it does seem to be detecting scene changes with
"reasonable" accuracy. He will know how accurately by the end of next
week.

 

Obviously, a schematic for this newer board would allow Tom to make the
accurate circuit changes that would allow it to lock properly to the HD
video.

 

Right now he is hesitant to dicker with it since he would be working
blind, and it does "seem" to work to a degree.

 

Thank you to all who have responded in kindness.

 

If you can provide a manual and schematic, it will be returned intact.

 

If you can ship it, the UPS account is 025367. The Fed-Ex account is
1641-5662-1. The address is below, and it WILL be returned.

 

Many thanks. You folks are GREAT !

 

Paul R. Beck

Paul R. Beck

Television, Radio & Film Group

Emerson College

120 Boylston Street

Boston, MA  02116                            617-824-8834     FAX:
617-824-8856

 



From peter.white at uea.ac.uk  Fri Feb 27 16:56:22 2009
From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:56:22 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <82E9D2F1-8A42-4BA1-B81D-CA32F98516D2@uea.ac.uk>

I heard of that a long time ago.  Never followed it up though - could  
you imagine trying to fit data about one frame, on one frame?!

> When you pause to think, it's like the tail wagging the dog, the  
> cart before the horse, coming full circle...

Such is life...  Good analogy.


Peter White
Head of Technical Development

East Anglian Film Archive

From rob at colorist.org  Fri Feb 27 22:28:05 2009
From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:28:05 +0200
Subject: [Tig] slightly OT  (films).
Message-ID: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org>

I've lately gotten into 1940s and 1950s films and discovered some real  
gems, like:
This Could Be the Night; The Night of the Hunter; High Sierra, etc.

I wonder if anybody who is into those early years of Hollywood could  
give me recommendations for films
(b+w or color) that are, shall we say, in the film noir mode, or  
somewhat close to it?

I heartily recommend This Could be The Night as an example of almost  
perfect Direction and Cinematography.

--
Rob Lingelbach
rob at colorist.org






From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us  Fri Feb 27 22:37:58 2009
From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:37:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
	<FF120016-6A3B-4011-A007-8DDFA66DF924@cinelab.com>
	<E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902271619130.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Robert Houllahan wrote:
>
>> there was some interesting research being done regarding archiving 
>> digitally on film.  we know the life of film- at least 70-100 years.

I forgot to make this comment regarding Rob Lingelbach's statement 
above.  What he missed saying is that we know the life of *old* film. 
In 70 years we will know how modern film survives.  I have seen plenty 
of movies made in the '70s and '80s which now look worse than restored 
movies made in the '40s and '50s.  Perhaps this is due to insufficient 
work in the transfer, or perhaps modern film degrades less pleasantly 
than old film.  Remember that film has changed quite a lot since then.

> My basic feeling about any digital "archive" is that it is not neglect 
> tolerant and that the whole process is highly consumptive of energy and 
> materials as the 'Vapor" of digital information has no consistently reliable 
> container to be stored in.

It is true that you don't want to neglect digital content for a long 
time.  However, it is also true that data stored on primitive 
computers in the 1970s is still stored on computers today.  It would 
be wrong to say that just because you can't see the bits doesn't mean 
that those bits will fail to survive.  There are established methods 
for assuring that digital data will survive.  If society was to fail 
(e.g. as foretold by H.G. Wells "The Time Machine"), then those 
digital bits would eventually fail.  However, if society continues to 
forge ahead as it has for a thousand years, then those digital bits 
can be maintained indefinitely.

Bob
--
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/



From carl at stopp.se  Fri Feb 27 23:54:46 2009
From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:54:46 +0100
Subject: [Tig] Data archiving
Message-ID: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8239@exchange.stopp.se>

Seems like everyone is archiving the final Print or shot out Negative.
But what about the source material?

There must be Terabytes of data generated by digital cameras like Arri, Genesis, Viper, Red, Dalsa etc etc.
Sure, for low budget films shot on Red I understand that only the final master is archived on a YCM-B/W negativ for long term.
But what about the big boys out there... There has been big budget productions made with digital cameras.

If we take the old Star Wars movies for example... they were brought back from the neg-archive and re-edited after 20years.
The later Star Wars was shot using HD-cameras captured on Drives... were is that data now? Is it realy kept "alive" on a cloud storage. Or did someone compromise and say that recording out to HD-Cam is good enough for archive?

What about the Bond movie... they used 8 Dalsas/Codex witch produced 40TB in a single day. Were is that archived? And all the Source HDSR-tapes...
Although, with a budget like that, I gues they could shoot it all out on negative to archive it together with the rest of the 35mm OCN



Carl Skaff
_____________________
Head of Telecine
Stockholm Postproduction
www.stopp.se
phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00
fax:     +46 8 32 77 22



From ted at tedlangdell.com  Sat Feb 28 05:04:07 2009
From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:04:07 -0800
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902271619130.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
	<FF120016-6A3B-4011-A007-8DDFA66DF924@cinelab.com>
	<E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902271619130.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <959824DC-FADF-4A88-8CEC-571D834827C8@tedlangdell.com>


On Feb 27, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

>  What he missed saying is that we know the life of *old* film. In  
> 70 years we will know how modern film survives.  I have seen plenty  
> of movies made in the '70s and '80s which now look worse than  
> restored movies made in the '40s and '50s.  Perhaps this is due to  
> insufficient work in the transfer, or perhaps modern film degrades  
> less pleasantly than old film.  Remember that film has changed  
> quite a lot since then.


As someone else put it about films made on Nitrate... "the silver was  
slathered on with a trowel."

Maybe the "silver screen" wasn't really silver... but the film being  
screened was.

Ted

Ted Langdell
tedlangdell.com and flashscan8.us






From timbond at mac.com  Fri Feb 27 23:24:35 2009
From: timbond at mac.com (Tim Bond)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:24:35 -0500
Subject: [Tig] slightly OT  (films).
In-Reply-To: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org>
References: <75C95250-FADF-465C-82B6-7524411B6CED@colorist.org>
Message-ID: <D3C9D2D0-0FE4-46C1-AAE9-344A2E71619F@mac.com>


On Fri, 27Feb2009, at 5:28 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote:

> I wonder if anybody who is into those early years of Hollywood could  
> give me recommendations for films
> (b+w or color) that are, shall we say, in the film noir mode, or  
> somewhat close to it?

I found this cryptic note from a discussion I had about film noir with  
an old salty critic:

Dir - Anthony Mann
DP - John Aelton - became one of the defining artists of the film noir  
look & style.  He said "It's not what you like, but what you don't  
like that defines the style."

Tim Bond
Colorist
Digital Imaging Supervisor
DuArt Film & Video



From mikko.kuutti at kava.fi  Sat Feb 28 10:11:42 2009
From: mikko.kuutti at kava.fi (Mikko Kuutti)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:11:42 +0200
Subject: [Tig] Data archiving
In-Reply-To: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8239@exchange.stopp.se>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8239@exchange.stopp.se>
Message-ID: <6723A072-6219-4181-9B06-D31BE0354C24@kava.fi>

I guess no-one mentioned this yet: a look at what the big guys are  
thinking is afforded by the publication “Digital Dilemma” at

http://www.oscars.org/science-technology/council/projects/digitaldilemma/index.html

Mikko

Mikko Kuutti
Deputy Director
National Audiovisual Archive
Pursimiehenkatu 29-31 A / P.O. Box 177, FI-00151 Helsinki, Finland
tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455


From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Sat Feb 28 11:53:09 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:53:09 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
	<FF120016-6A3B-4011-A007-8DDFA66DF924@cinelab.com>
	<E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <B82A7035-E284-4909-A9E6-86DCB9A72CC5@autotv.co.uk>


On Feb 27, 2009, at 17:13, Robert Houllahan wrote:
>
>
>> there was some interesting research being done regarding archiving  
>> digitally on film.  we know the life of film- at least 70-100 years.
>
> Considering that there is no known method of reliably storing  
> digital information over a long period of time, as no media is  
> proven reliable,

During the large-scale manufacture of optical discs both a glass  
master and a negative metal stamp are made. I'm betting that the  
stamp has VERY good archival properties, and the glass master (if  
washed thoroughly after the etching process) likewise.

Why bother writing digital data to film when we already have a well- 
established method of permanently and physically capturing digital data?

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--





From adrian at autotv.co.uk  Sat Feb 28 11:56:27 2009
From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:56:27 +0000
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0902271118050.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0902271118050.1127@freddy.simplesystems.org>
Message-ID: <C27CA68E-046B-4E53-96E2-A9484A30F8B2@autotv.co.uk>


On Feb 27, 2009, at 17:31, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:

> but now a typical email message contains the equivalent of a floppy- 
> disk full of data, and we don't think twice about it.

You speak for yourself. I'm a plain text emailer and proud of it!

--
Adrian Thomas
AUTOMATIC TELEVISION
35 BEDFORDBURY
LONDON WC2N 4DU
www.autotv.co.uk
+44 (0) 20 7240 2073
--




From ilampooranan at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 11:50:23 2009
From: ilampooranan at gmail.com (ilampooranan)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:20:23 +0530
Subject: [Tig] Linux to Windows File Sharing
Message-ID: <4dcf01fc0902280350x33e40d36u940536810c17dfe7@mail.gmail.com>

Hi ,



  In our office, we are using FTP for data transferring from Linux
Storageto Windows. For a time factor, now we are in situation to
access Linux file
systems partitions on Windows. Everyone knows the common way to access Linux
from windows is to make SAMBA Sever. We were tried it to configuring SAMBA
Sever and accessed those files. But it is very slow (No were is
helping). Accessing single file it takes more time (all those files are
containing 2K and 4K .dpx, .tga format).  Can any one suggest us to improve
or another possibilities to access Linux partition files in Windows?



Till date we are transferring files and accessing on windows. Instead of
transferring files from Linux to windows, we are trying to access directly.
Please advice us.


We were aware that, SAMBA is very slower than FTP. We got one possibilities
that, Service for Unix (SFU) from Windows side. Speed wise it is same like
SAMBA Service.


Awaiting reply.



Keep in touch,


IP How Mumbai calles Me!!!
Engineer Tech. Support.


From lunarfilms at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 28 19:42:43 2009
From: lunarfilms at mindspring.com (Robert Houllahan)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:42:43 -0500
Subject: [Tig] Long term storing for Film
In-Reply-To: <B82A7035-E284-4909-A9E6-86DCB9A72CC5@autotv.co.uk>
References: <C67BBBCA6F40ED408E4F8154EFDA472536FE2E8233@exchange.stopp.se>
	<89064CA0-AEAB-4A14-991D-4C1A2AFED59D@uea.ac.uk>
	<561CB644-60E6-4913-81E3-79333FA62472@colorist.org>
	<FF120016-6A3B-4011-A007-8DDFA66DF924@cinelab.com>
	<E8E78A4D-4AAF-4B0B-9C82-34FE9F1D4FA4@mindspring.com>
	<B82A7035-E284-4909-A9E6-86DCB9A72CC5@autotv.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B18CFC89-E38A-4172-8D89-7870DC0564FB@mindspring.com>

> During the large-scale manufacture of optical discs both a glass  
> master and a negative metal stamp are made. I'm betting that the  
> stamp has VERY good archival properties,

Are you suggesting that the archival master for a project be a highly  
compressed end user deliverable as in a DVD? I don't think that is  
acceptable. Furthermore have you been in a DVD pressing plant? The  
disc glass master may have decent archival qualities but it suffers  
from the same format obsolescence that all digital data storage  
devices are prone to. A DVD pressing machine requires a clean room and  
is a highly complex device which is probably headed for the scrap heap  
within the next few decades.

I would also guess that a 1000' of 35mm estar base B+W negative has  
similar archival qualities and the amount of data potentially stored  
must be rather great. Furthermore if it is a film you are trying to  
preserve shooting a 4K YCM sep onto 35mm B+W has the additional  
security of not needing any codec other than something akin to a  
sewing machine.

-Rob-


Robert Houllahan
lunarfilms at mindspring.com
Filmmaker / Cinematographer
VP Cinelab Inc.
www.cinelab.com