From craig at optimus.com Wed Apr 1 06:11:18 2009 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:11:18 -0500 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> Gentlemen - with all due respect - I haven't seen anyone post who actually is working a lot with Red images. I do it almost every week, and in the last year my business has gone to at least 50% non-film jobs, meaning either tape or file acquisition for national TV spot work. I could go on and on for a long time about this, but here's the deal; let's not forget the context in which we view real discussions about resolution, sharpness, de-bayering, format, aspect ratio, etc. Most of us here have quite a lot of experience and a very trained, technical perspective on the world - yet how soon we forget how the layman ( at least in terms of Post ) sees these things. The pixel format 1920x1080 gets used quite a bit. Yet, DVCProHD, P2, and others are considered 1920x1080 HD cameras. SO IS an HDCAMSR 4:4:4 tape, or images from the Genesis or ARRI D21. The 2 worlds are MILES apart. The term 1920x1080 on it's own means nothing. We know about compression and 4:1:1, yet many do not. There is often no context. (people often gaze at me me blindly when I rant about how much I hate P2, and why no one should ever try and Color Correct with it who knows what they are doing. If you just landed a job fresh out of school, P2 is AWESOME DUDE !!! ) In the end, the formats sound exactly the same. They're both 1920x1080. So then, does 2K and 4K. As formats, they mean nothing. They have no context except as measurement. I have done blow up tests on "Full-debayered" 4K images on a number of Red jobs. Guess what? My "max" zoom in range on my Spirit is around 300%. It works fairly well with a sharp, in focus image, shot with a VERY nice lens. I have pulled off many max range resizes in the middle of spots, and no one complains. Off of well shot, sharp, in focus, GREAT lens images from a RED camera at 4K, I have been able to zoom in - and have it be accepted by clients and directors - to a range of around 500%. I don't care what the "actual" resolution of the Red 4K is... it comes up as around 4096 x 2304 and the proof is in what you can do with it. I had a director purposely shoot everything as a wide 2 shot, so that he could mix and match to close ups or tight 2 shots when using the 4K processed .dpx files. It worked fine. Not incredible, but fine. Would that kind of resizing work on a feature? I doubt it. But for HD video on TV's at home? you betcha. Yes, The Red images are nothing more than jpeg 2000 DSLR images, and not that great to begin with.... but when used creatively, masterfully, with intent and context, they are changing the way we all currently work and will work in the future.... like it or not. What I find more funny is that people don't get their panties more in a bunch over the images coming off the Phantom camera, which are train wrecks... I haven't worked on high speed tabletop that was shot on film in months. It's all been Phantom, and I've lost some hair and added gray over those pictures at times.... Onward and upward friends. Try and remember what it was when we were excited and young... maybe the first time you saw a D1 recording, or a Zeus TBC, or a Copernicus or Wiz. Maybe an RCA Film chain....maybe a Marconi CCD Telecine. It will help in these whacko times. Regards - Craig Leffel Senior Colorist Optimus / Chicago > > Maybe a total can of worms but shouldn't the camera owner (or > prospective owner) be aware of what they will actually be getting for > their money? > > It seems doubtful that an analysis based on the Bayer design is going > to provide a full/truthful story either. > > Bob > -- > Bob Friesenhahn From owen at ywwg.com Wed Apr 1 04:40:08 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:40:08 -0400 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1238557208.9212.116.camel@ywwg> On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 08:29 -0700, Bob Kertesz wrote: > > What I find interesting is that every RED job I've seen discussed at length > seems to involve a long and complex DIY structure, where the person doing the > work is constantly improvising and making do, and software revisions for > dealing with the RED files often change in the middle of any given project, > and not always for the better. > > RED finish is a non-stop source of endless ideas and posts on the > Cinematographers' forum, where every job seems to be unique, often involving > the re-inventing of the wheel and the discovery of fire. Most of this thread has been discussing the the RED as a light-capturing device, but what irritates me more about RED is this workflow issue. I've had similar problems with other file-based workflows like P2 and XDCAM -- everything is different and unpredictable. For instance, in his blog post Oliver admits he is describing a basic "best-light" film transfer workflow. So yeah, he's re-inventing the wheel and rediscovering fire. But why does it take 4000 words to describe this so-called "easy way"? Looking at all of the discussion about color-spaces, quality settings, and de-bayering, it's as if he's also describing how to develop the film, as well as how the scanner works, and the tape deck. All of these operations in a file-based workflow have variables to tweak and the person handling the footage is responsible for making decisions at each step. Is there any hope that users won't have to learn how to select the correct debayering option? Because if there is a correct option, they'll certainly select the *wrong* option. Right now recovering from such a mistake is difficult, so every decision is fraught with peril. With RED, I feel that one day the software will work and it'll be possible to do simple things like re-render a shot that had the wrong settings applied and relink to the new media. Or do a regular offline-online with EDL, AAF, and XML support. And just when everything starts working, and we're doing with files what we've done for decades with film and tape -- that's when Epic and Scarlet will come out and it'll all break again. Or, is it conceivable that maybe we're just in a transition period in which file-based formats are new and the workflows have yet to be hammered out? Even if new codecs and file formats keep being invented (which they will), I assume (pray) at some point things must settle down. Or is the acquisition just going to end up the way file exporting is with Compressor, Sorenson Squeeze, and Media Cleaner? A metric ton of options and some presets that don't quite do what you want? Owen Williams no affiliation with anything mentioned -- Online Editor / Colorist Rockhopper Post Production www.rockhopperpost.com From rick at fsm.com.au Wed Apr 1 01:09:05 2009 From: rick at fsm.com.au (Rick Schweikert) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:09:05 +1100 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts (was: Re: RED workflow) In-Reply-To: <92C900B2-7C2F-4720-B42C-52B16E248E96@colorist.org> Message-ID: <986.53571238544649.mail3.dmz.fsm.com.au@MHS> In April 2008, FSM and the Australian Cinematographers Society (ACS), as part of the ACS 50th Anniversary - commissioned a side by side comparison shoot using 35mm, S16mm, Genesis, F23, F900 and RED One cameras. We doubt anything like this has been attempted before - in a public forum anyway. Shooting over a two day period, same lighting, same locations. Tests included bracketed exposures, compression and noise, chroma key, interior and exterior shots ranging from bright beach scenes front and back lit with hi contrast to interior scenes lit by candlelight. We also analysed the exposure tests to determine the dynamic range of each format. FSM scanned the 35mm at 2K rez, kept the HD footage at its native size and scaled the Red footage to half its size (2k). Projection was via a Barco DP 100 in a theatre for 100. Subsequent demonstrations were done at FSM's DI theatre using identical projection. Grading was via BaseLight. The S16mm was not shown as a comparison because of severe fogging that occurred in the lenses on the shoot. That's another story. The results? We made no comment during the screenings, preferring to let people decide what they liked the look of. Not very technical in that respect, but these are all experts in their field. DPs, directors, producers, editors - all manner of people viewed the material. The aim was to provide our clients and colleagues with a balanced presentation to make their own decision. Throughout the whole process the aim was to make an "apples for apples" comparison and at the same time let each format put its best foot forward. We did not write a technical report as the agenda for this demonstration was more getting an appreciation of the visual differences. But, in my opinion - hands down the best image was 35mm. Definition, texture, colour tone, contrast range all extremely good. Next best - Genesis, followed by F23, RED with F900 coming in at the end. I found the F23, RED and F900 looked like video cameras. The Genesis was probably the nearest to 35mm. My opinion only. By video I sensed occasional burnt out whites, lack of detail in blacks - in shots that 35mm retained all detail. In general, others tended to lean towards the F23 as their preference after 35mm. Fast forward 12 months - we now have F35, D21 and 12 months of development on the RED camera - and my suspicion is they all look better - but not as good as the 35mm. We'd love to do the test again (our operators wouldn't!) Conclusion? I'd like to say you get what you pay for, but realistically, because the data camera workflows do add complexity to the post process and that should cost more, the costs are not that significantly different on a "standard" shoot. But it all becomes interesting when higher volumes of material are required to be shot and high speed comes into play. I don't think the public will pick the difference provided care is taken with whatever camera is chosen. Except, perhaps, they might perceive a difference but not understand what it is. If you can afford it, shoot 35mm. If you can't, the options are now becoming excellent. Two years ago, they weren't. Thanks Rick, FSM Sydney From carl at stopp.se Wed Apr 1 08:15:27 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:15:27 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Red being 4K or not Message-ID: -----Maybe someone who has one of these Red 4K cameras can mount a good -----lens and point it at a standard resolution measurement chart and post -----the result? ----- -----Yes, there are standard ways to measure actual resolution ... ----- -----Bob I did just that, maybe not the most sientific test, But have a look: http://www.stopp.se/lab/?p=734 To sum it up. Shooting 4K is vital. But exporting and working 4K.... not what I recomend. 2K/HD is good enough and the diference is not as big as you might think. Although we see a true difference between 4K / HD exports, this was a black/white image. And since the Red actualy has True 4K LUMA resolution and not 4K in croma I think it would have been intersting to see the same image shoot but with a blue background and red resolution-stripes. Then I belive we would have seen even worse results. /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 1 10:45:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:45:30 +0300 Subject: [Tig] archive site for commercials Message-ID: <8B13F492-004E-4320-BE01-A49F02BAC687@colorist.org> could be that this is common knowledge, though I hadn't known about it. there's a site on the web with an archive of TV spots at http://www.advertolog.com/paedia/reels/ that seems to include download at full res, plus credits, for current and past commercials. I'm not sure how complete it is, nor if it's kept up-to- date. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From tims at blacklistfilm.com Wed Apr 1 08:55:12 2009 From: tims at blacklistfilm.com (Tims Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 00:55:12 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> On Mar 30, 2009, at 8:25 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2009/03/28/red-post-–-the-easy-way/ Ted, thanks for the link to Oliver Peters blog post "RED Post - the Easy Way" This article is a good example of typical RED post today. I own a RED One camera, which I use on my own productions as well as rent to other productions. I have explored many different workflows with RED and for me, the real power of posting RED is its flexibility. As with any new camera and codec, once you understand its strengths and weaknesses it becomes a powerful tool. On Mar 31, 2009, at 8:29 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > RED finish is a non-stop source of endless ideas and posts on the > Cinematographers' forum, where every job seems to be unique, often > involving > the re-inventing of the wheel and the discovery of fire. I understand and respect the desire for a rock solid workflow in an already complex post landscape, but it always takes time to figure out best practices. I have seen productions try to reinvent the wheel with RED, but it doesn't have to be so complex. I remember shooting with the HVX200 just after its release, and there were many uncertainties about the P2 format and how to manage metadata, archive it, and finish it properly. It's strange to think that only a few years later you can post "4k" in a similar manner. This is a very simple RED workflow, but it can produce great results. It's reminiscent of a HVX200 P2 workflow. 1) .R3D transcode in REDrushes to ProRes HQ. 2) Edit in FCP and lock picture. 3) Import native REDCODE wrapped quicktime into FCP. 4) Re-link media. 5) Send to Color for finishing. (DPX or Uncompressed QT) Tims Johnson Blacklist Productions Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 818.728.6944 From wollinger at teleimage.com.br Wed Apr 1 14:01:58 2009 From: wollinger at teleimage.com.br (wollinger at teleimage.com.br) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 10:01:58 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Red being 4K or not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090401100158.goakh19fs4kw00oo@www.cbmail.com.br> Right, that´s why we don´t see Arri advertising it´s camera as 3K. Ariel Wollinger D.I. Supervisor Teleimage - Casablanca - Brasil From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Apr 1 14:53:29 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:53:29 -0700 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> Message-ID: Hi, Craig, On Mar 31, 2009, at 10:11 PM, Craig Leffel wrote: > Onward and upward friends. Try and remember what it was when we were > excited and young... maybe the first time you saw a D1 recording, or > a Zeus TBC, or a Copernicus or Wiz. Maybe an RCA Film chain....maybe > a Marconi CCD Telecine. It will help in these whacko times. > > Regards - > > Craig Leffel > Senior Colorist > Optimus / Chicago Enjoyed your post muchly. You can enjoy a Marconi with Sunburst CC at http://www.marconitelecine.com Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Apr 1 16:15:27 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 08:15:27 -0700 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> Message-ID: >What I find more funny is >that people don't get their panties more in a bunch over the images >coming off the Phantom camera, which are train wrecks... I haven't >worked on high speed tabletop that was shot on film in months. It's all >been Phantom, and I've lost some hair and added gray over those pictures >at times.... What was it someone said about a dog walking on its hind legs? The question is not how well it does that. The wonder is that it can do it at all. I've done a large greenscreen shoot with the Phantom going as high as 500 fps, and while the images apparently needed a LOT of post massaging, the slo-mo part was awfully good. Also, it's the brightest I've ever seen a stage lit in more than three decades of doing this foolishness. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Apr 1 16:24:26 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 08:24:26 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> Message-ID: >This is a very simple RED workflow, but it can produce great results. >It's reminiscent of a HVX200 P2 workflow. > >1) .R3D transcode in REDrushes to ProRes HQ. >2) Edit in FCP and lock picture. >3) Import native REDCODE wrapped quicktime into FCP. >4) Re-link media. >5) Send to Color for finishing. (DPX or Uncompressed QT) Yes, but it seems you're handling the entire thing from beginning to end, AND you apparently have a totally Mac-centric workflow. The problems come in when the footage (on cards, or disk, or whatever) is handed off to another place where the original shooter is no longer involved, and that other place is not Mac-centric, and doesn't want to use FCP or Color or ProResHQ. That's when the issues I was referring to start to show up... --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at cinelab.com Wed Apr 1 16:31:26 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:31:26 -0400 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> References: <0632614344AA42E494A9E6DFCA95E30C@Sweet> <0D980F20-A2BB-4EA7-8CE3-58D6F733589B@colorist.org> <49D2F776.70201@optimus.com> Message-ID: > Guess what? My "max" zoom in range on my Spirit is around 300%. It > works fairly well with a sharp, in focus image, shot with a VERY > nice lens. I have pulled off many max range resizes in the middle of > spots, and no one complains. Off of well shot, sharp, in focus, > GREAT lens images from a RED camera at 4K, I have been able to zoom > in - and have it be accepted by clients and directors - to a range > of around 500%. Don't forget that that zoom on the Spirit is not optical and if you had a 4K scan from a Northlight, Arri, Imagica etc.. you could blow it up more as well. I don't think the red at approx 2.8k of useable resolution is a "problem" and if your final output is 1.9 or 2K there is enough resolution to satisfy that requirement. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From spirit4k at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 17:15:28 2009 From: spirit4k at gmail.com (Craig Nichols) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:15:28 -0500 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts Message-ID: <5c9ca6590904010915v14f18e12l2f4e8ecfde91d869@mail.gmail.com> I have to admit being amazed by first D1 recording I saw, and less enthralled by having to be one of two guys who got to move the small refrigerator sized, heavy (DCR-1000?) up and downstairs at Editel LA between Harry/Paintbox and Telecine until a hole was finally cut in floor and cables run from "Telecine Submarine" to Graphics. Craig Nichols Technical Service Engineer - DFA Digital Film Technolgy craig.nichols at dft-film.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 1 17:31:28 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:31:28 +0300 Subject: [Tig] character encoding change news. Message-ID: Due to the wide acceptance of 8-bit clean email messages at the MTA level, I've changed the US-english character encoding to UTF-8 from iso-8859-1. Hopefully this will avoid some Content-Transfer-Encoding problems with certain MUAs, and make things easier for those who use extended characters in english. Some other languages may need this change as well; if anyone experiences any anomalies with character encoding or message readability, please contact me. Also consider this message a test; if you're unable to read it, please advise, thanks. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Apr 1 18:25:06 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:25:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Red being 4K or not In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Carl Skaff wrote: > > I did just that, maybe not the most sientific test, But have a look: > > http://www.stopp.se/lab/?p=734 Most excellent. I downloaded your images and cropped out only the resolution circle in order to avoid the annotation text. Then I used GraphicsMagick to compute the difference between the two versions using various metrics. Note that your TIFF files are only 8 bit/sample and this adds error to the results: Image Difference (MeanAbsoluteError): Normalized Absolute ============ ========== Red: 0.0146294418 3.7 Green: 0.0096221703 2.5 Blue: 0.0131297705 3.3 Total: 0.0124604609 3.2 Image Difference (MeanSquaredError): Normalized Absolute ============ ========== Red: 0.0008927807 0.2 Green: 0.0003692396 0.1 Blue: 0.0008128796 0.2 Total: 0.0006916333 0.2 Image Difference (PeakAbsoluteError): Normalized Absolute ============ ========== Red: 0.3137254902 80.0 Green: 0.1411764706 36.0 Blue: 0.4000000000 102.0 Total: 0.4000000000 102.0 Image Difference (PeakSignalToNoiseRatio): PSNR ====== Red: 30.49 Green: 34.33 Blue: 30.90 Total: 31.60 Image Difference (RootMeanSquaredError): Normalized Absolute ============ ========== Red: 0.0298794365 7.6 Green: 0.0192156080 4.9 Blue: 0.0285110426 7.3 Total: 0.0262989218 6.7 Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 1 18:34:39 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:34:39 +0300 Subject: [Tig] sync or... Message-ID: It would be cool if there were a colloquial term for audio that's out- of-sync, and wonder if this has ever been conceived: "swimming audio." as in, "sync or swim." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From aranysh at mac.com Wed Apr 1 19:12:19 2009 From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:12:19 +0600 Subject: [Tig] sync or... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I never heard it in English but in Russian "swimming" or rather "floating sync" is somewhat common expression. On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:34 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > RTI Film Group supports the TIG. > ==== > > > It would be cool if there were a colloquial term for audio that's > out-of-sync, and wonder if > this has ever been conceived: "swimming audio." > > as in, "sync or swim." > > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From aranysh at mac.com Wed Apr 1 19:25:51 2009 From: aranysh at mac.com (Michael Aranyshev) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 00:25:51 +0600 Subject: [Tig] sync or... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> So next time just say "звук плывёт" or "синхрон поплыл" On Apr 2, 2009, at 12:22 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:12 PM, Michael Aranyshev wrote: > >> I never heard it in English but in Russian "swimming" or rather >> "floating sync" is somewhat common expression. > > I should know that- but Я не знал > > Rob, Kiev. > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > From DReinowski at ringsidecreative.com Wed Apr 1 19:32:15 2009 From: DReinowski at ringsidecreative.com (Reinowski, Dave) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:32:15 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Plasma monitors Message-ID: <02D43F6E9956704DBE3B2728D0C9A9B86EDFBA@mail.gtn.net> Hello TIG All of the recent plasma monitors talk seemed to center around two monitors Panasonic TH-50PF11UK and the Pioneer Elite(r) KURO(tm). I am wondering if anyone has had the pleasure of working with both of these monitors, and if they could offer any comments. I have looked at the KURO at the local high home entertainment store, but have not been able to track down a Panasonic. Thanks Dave Reinowski Senior Technical Guru 248-548-2500 Main "Never say 'OOPS!' always say 'Ah, Interesting" RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™ http://www.ringsidecreative.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 1 19:28:10 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 21:28:10 +0300 Subject: [Tig] film. Message-ID: <8E3B328E-EE2A-4746-B7C3-AA88C219672A@colorist.org> I received this reference today from my cousin the East Coast DoP, Anders Uhl. http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/why-we-love-film.htm perhaps it speaks for itself. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 1 19:36:11 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 21:36:11 +0300 Subject: [Tig] sync or... In-Reply-To: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> References: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> Message-ID: <1D7F090B-8DDA-4AF7-A7C3-DE7983819272@colorist.org> On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Michael Aranyshev wrote: > So next time just say "звук плывёт" or "синхрон > поплыл" спасибо, хорошо! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Apr 1 19:31:49 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:31:49 -0700 Subject: [Tig] sync or... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FC1EADF-9CCC-4C9E-9338-F34EBFA23334@tedlangdell.com> "Swimming Audio" sounds like it would be moving in and out of sync. As in "Swimming in and out of sync." On Apr 1, 2009, at 10:34 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > It would be cool if there were a colloquial term for audio that's > out-of-sync, and wonder if > this has ever been conceived: "swimming audio." > > as in, "sync or swim." > Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From ted at tedlangdell.com Wed Apr 1 19:34:06 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:34:06 -0700 Subject: [Tig] sync or... float... Russian pronounciation In-Reply-To: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> References: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> Message-ID: <1FCC01CB-6AC3-4EB8-95E6-0DF8DDE66B04@tedlangdell.com> On Apr 1, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Michael Aranyshev wrote: > > So next time just say "звук плывёт" or "синхрон > поплыл" And in phonetic English, that's pronounced: Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 Skype: TedLangdell tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 1 20:30:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:30:34 +0300 Subject: [Tig] sync or... float... Russian pronounciation In-Reply-To: <1FCC01CB-6AC3-4EB8-95E6-0DF8DDE66B04@tedlangdell.com> References: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> <1FCC01CB-6AC3-4EB8-95E6-0DF8DDE66B04@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:34 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: >> So next time just say "звук плывёт" or "синхрон >> поплыл" > > > And in phonetic English, that's pronounced: as I am not conversant in english phonetic representation, I'll have to look it up, which involves considerable research, as Russian phonemes are different from those of english. which makes them extraordinarily interesting, at least to me. the labial, fricative, etc. are quite different and take a discerning ear to hear. One can spend more than a year in a russian-or-ukrainian speaking country, and only approach the lingual gymnastics necessary for the proper enunciation. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From spirit4k at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 07:43:17 2009 From: spirit4k at gmail.com (Craig Nichols) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:43:17 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts Message-ID: <5c9ca6590904012343y3798b89fg9c9d5524b1ff1e28@mail.gmail.com> I see people shooting digital aquisition around town thinking it's saving money, and a lot of post people scrambling to make it all work somehow, and they often tell me they rarely see the same scenario twice in a row. They say the learning curve can be steep and unpredictable. I have often heard much cursing and muttering about how much easier, ultimately cheaper, and much better quality film acquisition would have been in the first place. But I am totally biased. Most likely, in talented hands, a Fisher Price camcorder could be used to make effective images, and, in the same hands, breathtaking images should be possible from the many new competing data formats on the horizon. It's not the size or number of pixels or great specs as much as it is the skill of the shooter....also quite true with film. At last film's shelf life is pretty well known. >From a well known maker of SAN controllers "It's not a mater if a disk will fail, but rather when". Or .... "I love the smell of fresh film in the morning. Some might say it smells funny, but it usually smells like pretty quick and predictable cash flow to me." Craig Nichols Digital Film Technology From vinny at cineworks.com Thu Apr 2 03:23:28 2009 From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 22:23:28 -0400 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--OliverPeters References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure of the previous thread regarding this subject matter, I receive the tig digest each day. My two cents on what I believe this discussion is related to, if your not going back to the native r3d files, all bets are off. If your not working in a facility that does this for a living, all bets are off. If your an editor who now proclaims your a Grader or Colorist, all bets are off. The problem is "not handing off to a faculty that is not mac-centric", the problem is handing it off to an 18 year old in his living room with FCP, or worse, Apple Color. Let the flames begin. Vincent Hogan President Cineworks Digital Studios,Inc. www.cineworks.com From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Apr 2 16:01:28 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:01:28 -0600 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--OliverPeters In-Reply-To: References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> Message-ID: Interesting and fun that Apple COLOR gets another slam. Maybe its the Fisher Price solution, but in the proper hands, etc., etc. I think its the Tangent panels that make the difference. ;-P True, the 18 year old in (and I embellish) his parents' basement, doing the "grade" on his MacBook would be a danger. However, a few of us have done the homework and are at least meeting expenses, after scaling the learning curve (although that was built on 3 decades of previous experience). On 1-Apr-09, at 8:23 PM, Vincent G. Hogan wrote: > the problem is handing it off > to an 18 year old in his living room with FCP, or worse, Apple Color. > Let the flames begin. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From videogenie at aol.com Thu Apr 2 16:14:00 2009 From: videogenie at aol.com (videogenie at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:14:00 -0400 Subject: [Tig] 35mm Celco MPX Film Recorder's Message-ID: <8CB81BCC9090B02-BC8-F3C@webmail-dh33.sysops.aol.com> I need product information on the following 35mm Celco MPX Film Recorder's any pro & con? would be greatly appreciated... THANK YOU ?*)o(* bls barry shankman,ceo mystix moon production distribution bls film & video llc www.mystixmoon.com (video email and conference) www.tokbox.com/bls From vinny at cineworks.com Thu Apr 2 16:20:30 2009 From: vinny at cineworks.com (Vincent G. Hogan) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:20:30 -0400 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--OliverPeters References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> Message-ID: > Interesting and fun that Apple COLOR gets another slam. > Maybe its the Fisher Price solution, but in the proper hands, etc., etc. I think its the Tangent panels that make the difference. ;-P > True, the 18 year old in (and I embellish) his parents' basement, doing the "grade" on his MacBook would be a danger. > However, a few of us have done the homework and are at least meeting expenses, after scaling the learning curve (although that was built on 3 decades of previous experience). I didn't get into this business to meet my expenses. My employees and I need to make a living. I know it's frowned on in certain circles, when everything digital is touted as free! and liberating! Let's get those evil post facilities out of the equation, etc... ;-) Vincent Hogan President Cineworks Digital Studios,Inc. From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 2 18:57:01 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:57:01 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Call for Papers Message-ID: The following was submitted by Peter Stansfeld and will be in the TIG Calendar http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Calendars:TIG_main CVMP CALLS FOR PAPERS A new team has been brought in to reinvigorate this year’s Conference for Visual Media Production (CVMP). Now in its sixth year, the Conference aims to provide a forum for mutually beneficial knowledge sharing between researchers and media industry specialists. The latest research developments will be presented over two days alongside real life industry implementations - a unique melting pot of ideas and experience. This year also sees a change in venue to the BFI on London’s Southbank. With a line up that already includes; Matt Welford, Head of Compositing at Weta Digital (The Day The Earth Stood Still, The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian, King Kong, the Lord of the Rings trilogy and much more), Professor Mark Pollefeys from ETHZ and Dr Toni Mateos of Barcelona Media, this promises to be an exciting few days. Special Sessions this year are: 1. Advanced Technology in post production 2. Techniques for 3D production and postproduction Increasing demand for stereoscopic content and delivering for emerging platforms such as e-cinema, high-resolution home displays and interactive media fuel continual demand for the development of new technology and approaches. The ‘Call for Papers’ is now live at www.cvmp-conference.org for those who’d like to submit papers on novel research and practical applications related to media production. A full list of suggested topics can also be found on the site. The Best papers from CVMP 2008 will be published in a special issue of JVRB (Journal of Virtual Reality and Broadcasting) and all proceedings will be published by the IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers). Registration (£300/£150 concession) for the event, taking place on 12th and 13th November 2009, is also now live on the CVMP website. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 2 19:07:40 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:07:40 +0300 Subject: [Tig] NAB Focus Sheet, Classifieds update. Message-ID: <7FE9B0A5-5627-4AA0-87CB-30C94E2D4A19@colorist.org> at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 you'll find current information for NAB from: * 1 Digital Vision Stand SL8514 http://www.digitalvision.se/news/NAB2009.htm * 2 Cintel launches exciting New Products at NAB 2009 http://www.cintel.co.uk/ Stand SL2216 * 3 RTI Acquires Film Scanning and Recording Booth C2948 http://www.rtico.com * 4 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 http://www.cine-tal.com * 5 Autodesk at NAB 2009 Stand SL2120 http://www.autodesk.com/nab2009 * 6 FilmLight http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk will have presence on the following two stands: * 7 FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) http://www.FlandersScientific.com will be attending NAB 2009, booth(s) SU7025/SU72026. at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds you'll find current information such as: Available: Colourist Available, Worldwide ...rising colorist looking for company in need of same... Zoe Chang:Freelance Colorist ..experienced with da Vinci 2K Plus, Thomson Spirit 2K... Adam Halasz colourist ..Experienced with Baselight grading systems, DI workflow... Rich Montez: Freelance Colorist, Consultant, Trainer Kevin Shaw: Freelance Colorist, Instructor and Consultant Stuart Blake Jones - Freelance Colorist-Consultant-Instructor-Writer Herbert Butler - Assistant Colourist and Conform Editor Laura Creecy, Matt McFarland ..Freelance colorists with grading theater driven by Color Da Vinci Resolve RT Available for sale HD Spirit Color Suite Luster 2009 with Incinerator Loaded Davinci 2K Plus for Sale USA $155,000 USD daVinci 2K Plus CINTEL RASCAL & DAVINCI 2k COLOR CORRECTOR TTR 4x1 portable HD-SDI router available for sale Wanted: Ampex AVR1, AVR2s needed DI Colorist, Mid-US COLORISTS WANTED @ KI -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com Thu Apr 2 20:34:07 2009 From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 12:34:07 -0700 Subject: [Tig] 35mm Celco MPX Film Recorder's In-Reply-To: <8CB81BCC9090B02-BC8-F3C@webmail-dh33.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB81BCC9090B02-BC8-F3C@webmail-dh33.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65F05@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> > barry shankman: > I need product information on the following 35mm Celco MPX > Film Recorder's any pro & con? I used one for several years. They make very good pictures and are amazingly reliable for a device with a CRT. Speed is the drawback. You must use 5245 because 5244 is much too low in EI. That may cause grain problems for some people. Many of the animation companies like the grain because their material is too clean. The other drawback is ~15 to 20 seconds/fr at 2k full ap. as I remember. Bob Micheletti Engineer, Universal Pictures Hollywood From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Thu Apr 2 23:25:13 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:25:13 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts Message-ID: <200904021825_MC3-2-1EE5-5AF7@compuserve.com> All this talk of 2K 3K 4K . I think that what has been lost regarding electronic pixel based image acquisition vs film is that the two are totally different in the way they grab the image. While ALL current electronic systems rely on fixed size and fixed pattern photosites with "linear" light level to voltage/current conversion, film is grossly different. Film comprises random granularity, with random grain sizes from around 1/4000th of the frame width to maybe less than 1/300,000 of the film width. After processing, each grain, or dye cloud in color, the density of each is constant. The image is obtained by the average dispersion of multiple grains. i.e. the "linear" density relationship to the original image is generated by the number of exposed/processed grains per unit area. Film is more like newspaper/magazine prints, fixed density dyes/inks with the size and quantity of "grains" determining the viewed local density, however unlike print the location of each "pixel" is random. For an electronic camera to actually offer a similar resolution and totally non coherent density capture pattern/range would require such camera to have at least a 300,000 by 225,000 pixel count, over a 35mm motion picture frame, if using conventional lenses. A randomiser then needs to group sets of pixels into a spread range of pixels from 1 to about 100 clumped together. Then the grouped sets need to work as in film. 4 photons striking any size group is needed "switch on" that entire group. Less than 4 photons, at any group should leave all in the group switched off. Then you have an electronic camera that equates more to film! No moiré, film like dynamic range and resolution largely lens determined. I hear all the arguments regarding RED etc and the supporters seem to believe that it is "good enough" for today's work. However consider future archives. Two historical examples 1950's The "I Love Lucy" show. Shot on 35mm, In its day 525 NTSC was "good enough" but the producers still decided to shott 35mm film. I understand it will now hold up well in HD, as it used what turned out t o be a future proof acquisition medium. 1970's Star Wars, the early ones! Original prints, now look terrible, but new HD/2K's from, I assume the cut OCN or at least a first gen IP, look fantastic. Had we accepted 1970's print quality as the be all and end all and had electronic captured just to that level, we would never have seen the quality that is achieved today. I believe our future includes immersive entertainment, where, horror of horrors, we will merge with our technology, some refer to this as Human Being Mk2. It will include consumer electronic image viewing greater than 4K, direct possibly to our visual cortex. If we limit ourselves now to "good enough for today" do we do an injustice to future generations archival entertainment? Of BTW audio out of sync, how about "unsunk". Cheers Peter From ahforums at iris-digital.org Thu Apr 2 22:01:30 2009 From: ahforums at iris-digital.org (ahforums at iris-digital.org) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 08:01:30 +1100 Subject: [Tig] Color Blindness Test Message-ID: <7007C4E7-1B67-421B-BD07-2FB269D1C3C4@iris-digital.org> Hi Tig List, I felt an little color experiment I performed yesterday had to be shared with all here. Using a web program to simulate color blindness I asked two 'common red/green color blind' colleges to view the simulation and the original and tell me the difference between them. I was curious to know if the simulation to our eyes was similar to how they perceived the imagery. On both images, a macbeth chart and the Kodak DLAD image, the subjects could perceive little color difference. On then getting them to articulate the colors actually perceived they astonishingly came up with uncannily correct color names for each patch on the macbeth chart. (see below post) Also of interest one college noted that colors were more visually detectable when wearing polarized glasses or the sun was at a particular point in the sky ( I hazard 45%). He also enjoyed watching 3D movies finding the color purity (color separation) more visually intense. I wonder if this is because the polarized lenses are feeding the brain with more spectrally separated color information? To view the visual results view the post here. http://www.iris-digital.org/wordpress/archives/640 Regards, Adrian Hauser Digital Film Colorist Cutting Edge EQ Sydney www.cuttingedge.com.au www.iris-digital.org (all things color for film and video) From carl at stopp.se Thu Apr 2 21:30:01 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:30:01 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Red workflow, conform features Message-ID: I've got this project where they will shoot on Red, a lot, 22TB! I will have it all on "Quantum LTO3a"-tapes holding each 400GB. thats 55 tapes. How would I load an EDL into an app that would copy the files needed from each tape, without having to do it manualy? I'm thinking about getting a big ass Raid at 30TB and have it all online and use MonkeyExtract to copy the needed files onto my SAN. Does anyone have a smart idea? /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From tims at blacklistfilm.com Thu Apr 2 22:59:19 2009 From: tims at blacklistfilm.com (Tims Johnson) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 14:59:19 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2009, at 8:24 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > The problems come in when the footage (on cards, or disk, or > whatever) is > handed off to another place where the original shooter is no longer > involved, > and that other place is not Mac-centric Moving projects between houses always requires accurate communication and a good pre-planning. The RED software can be used as a virtual telecine to create familiar formats like .DPX files. After conversion to .DPX, the files can be integrated into existing workflows for Mac, Windows, or anything that supports .DPX files. Just like a film workflow, care must be taken at each step to maintain an accurate end result. This virtual telecine, conversion from a RED .R3D file into another format, requires an understanding of color space, proper debayer settings, etc. and should be handled by a knowledgeable professional. I have seen productions make the mistake of delegating this responsibility to unqualified ACs or production assistants and lose some of the power of a RAW workflow. There are currently many good cross platform workflow options available and early incompatibilities with certain systems now have solutions. Since the RED SDK was released, many companies have already shown native .R3D support inside their applications. This will certainly help to streamline the process of working with RED footage and make the whole process more seamless. I look forward to announcements at NAB of more companies integrating .R3D file support so that conversion is handled inside the tools of our choice. Tims Johnson Blacklist Productions Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 818.728.6944 From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 08:28:01 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:28:01 +0300 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> Message-ID: <2C0C789A-5304-42BB-A785-0F99F9357438@colorist.org> On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:59 AM, Tims Johnson wrote: > I have seen productions make the mistake of delegating this > responsibility to unqualified ACs or production assistants and lose > some of the power of a RAW workflow. Hi Tims, I don't think you can call it RAW, that's a term better applied to still cameras that don't use upsampling nor compression when shooting in their native file format. regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 09:37:05 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:37:05 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Color Blindness Test In-Reply-To: <7007C4E7-1B67-421B-BD07-2FB269D1C3C4@iris-digital.org> References: <7007C4E7-1B67-421B-BD07-2FB269D1C3C4@iris-digital.org> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:01 AM, ahforums at iris-digital.org wrote: > To view the visual results view the post here. > http://www.iris-digital.org/wordpress/archives/640 This calls for a peer-reviewed thesis. A little bit beside the point, but the color names always interest me. There is one listed as "Meadow Morning." Gives rise to thoughts of "Dead Oak Leaf on Forest Floor" as another color name. The pale flesh tone of a grieving widow in the meadow would be called "Meadow Mourning." (and even further afield, Madoff Mourning.) Another color listed is "Sunday Latte." One could write a dissertation on how that name arose. Fuchsia is the proper spelling for that color name in your chart :) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter.white at uea.ac.uk Fri Apr 3 11:02:09 2009 From: peter.white at uea.ac.uk (Peter White) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:02:09 +0100 Subject: [Tig] sync or... float... Russian pronounciation In-Reply-To: References: <222C3C64-9F0B-4A22-B9DE-E356276C4486@mac.com> <1FCC01CB-6AC3-4EB8-95E6-0DF8DDE66B04@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <65EE4AA8-DE54-45B1-AA24-BCE5CBC0D3B6@uea.ac.uk> As much as I enjoyed 'sync or swim', I don't think you could ever get me out of the habit of using 'wandering'. Pete From doctorossi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 14:10:41 2009 From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 06:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <200904021825_MC3-2-1EE5-5AF7@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > For an electronic camera to actually offer a similar resolution and > totally non coherent density capture pattern/range would require > such camera to have at least a 300,000 by 225,000 pixel count, over a > 35mm motion picture frame, if using conventional lenses. A randomiser > then needs to group sets of pixels into a spread range of pixels from 1 > to about 100 clumped together. Then the grouped sets need to work as in > film. 4 photons striking any size group is needed "switch on" that > entire group. Less than 4 photons, at any group should leave all in the > group switched off. Then you have an electronic camera that equates > more to film! Let's not let an extremely important factor get lost in the numbers, though. While the recipe you describe would certainly make for a digital camera that would capture a much more film-like source image, that source image is not the end-product of the camera system. Even if it could be projected or accurately reproduced on a monitor, no human can distinguish a 300,000-pixel horizontal resolution. It is not important that a digital acquisition medium be able to replicate EVERY quality of the film medium, only EVERY VIEWABLE quality. Schuyler Dunn From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 15:31:55 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:31:55 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The TIG Corner Message-ID: <7BB798C9-340F-4E73-B22E-4AE9D2D66C4B@colorist.org> In the war-torn pinnacle of Western Civilization called Las Vegas, at the Convention Center during NAB, where not a few coffees and beers will be shared in friendship between colleagues and comrades, there will be The TIG Corner, a place to meet and swap stories (or boards) and a cuppa tea or ovaltine. DaVinci has graciously provided the corner at their booth, Stand # SL 3314 I hear there will be a physical bulletin board for colorists to post notices, resumes, help wanted ads, photos and latest work images, and an historic collection of panels to stimulate conversation. As well there will be the opportunity to make a contribution to the TIG, should anyone escape the thralls of the tables. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 15:34:12 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:34:12 +0300 Subject: [Tig] NAB Focus Sheet, Classifieds update. In-Reply-To: <7FE9B0A5-5627-4AA0-87CB-30C94E2D4A19@colorist.org> References: <7FE9B0A5-5627-4AA0-87CB-30C94E2D4A19@colorist.org> Message-ID: <69D7C5A2-974D-4870-81C5-CF81DBC550EC@colorist.org> On Apr 2, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 > > you'll find current information for NAB from: I mistakenly omitted the information for DaVinci, which is on the Focus Sheet now. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From alanr at bhphoto.com Fri Apr 3 15:43:21 2009 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:43:21 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The TIG Corner In-Reply-To: <7BB798C9-340F-4E73-B22E-4AE9D2D66C4B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C014B0680@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Sez Rob: As well there will be the opportunity to make a contribution to the TIG, should anyone escape the thralls of the tables. Sez me: Or, if you are incredibly lucky at said tables.... Alan Rosenfeld The Studio at B&H From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 15:41:48 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:41:48 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C7D1148-9FB6-4E4F-B8EC-ABB4A186C3D9@colorist.org> On Apr 3, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Schuyler Dunn wrote: > It is not important that a digital acquisition medium be able to > replicate EVERY quality of the film medium, only EVERY VIEWABLE > quality. It was determined, back in the early DI days, and in the case at least of Hollywood, at Efilm, that even though the film recorders were working at 2K, the images looked significantly better when the original negative was scanned at 4k and down-res'ed to 2k before the film out. This in comparison to scanning at 2K, and recording out at 2K. So, there were some key factors why it was more desirable to have the scan at effectively double the resolution, though the end result was half. I'm sure those factors are known and explainable by someone here, or can be deduced by all the previous discussion here and elsewhere. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Fri Apr 3 16:45:21 2009 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:45:21 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts Message-ID: <200904031145_MC3-2-1EE5-5DE3@compuserve.com> Schuyler Dunn wrote 'no human can distinguish a 300,000-pixel horizontal resolution.' Agreed that was not my suggestion. The 300,000 pixels are initially needed to allow for "clumping" randomly spatially and temporily to emulate film grain sizes. Also while we do not see these fine grains individually on film we do indirectly. At very high exposures where electronic cameras have long clipped, the tiniest film grains may or may not capture 4 photons. These tiny grains added to the swathe of all the bigger grains that have been exposed at the same instant and cause a very slight increase in the image density. This is one reason why film has such a high dynamic range. Look at it this way the film's captured exposure range is largely related to the range of grain area sizes. The largest grain captures the lowest illumination, All grain sizes except the tiniest capture the greatest illumination. Who knows what some future scanner could lever out of a film image. Here's a thought, film dye layers have a depth, is there, buried in there somewhere 3D image information that as yet our technology has not been able to extract! cheers Peter From smarrocco at ringsidecreative.com Fri Apr 3 17:17:55 2009 From: smarrocco at ringsidecreative.com (Marrocco, Sam) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:17:55 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Red workflow, conform features In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D636B3.8070403@ringsidecreative.com> > How would I load an EDL into an app that would copy the files needed from each tape, without having to do it manualy? > I'm thinking about getting a big ass Raid at 30TB and have it all online and use MonkeyExtract to copy the needed files onto my SAN. > > Carl, I can't imagine being able to read a data tape in the fashion you are asking and then get timecode. You would have to bring in a file, parse it for metadata, then decide if you needed the file. Plus, since the r3d files would have to be brought in whole you could not grab selects. If it was a TAR-based LTO tape, you could do selective loads via a scripting scenario, but you'd still be bringing in whole shots (not selected portions of shots). If you don't know which filenames you need, I think you would have an easier time importing the entire LTO tape into a server and using Monkey or another app to refine from that point. We've encouraged clients to bring us Hard Drives as opposed to Tape-medium-based Archives purely because they copy into our systems faster or can be worked with natively, eliminating the copying 'downtime'. -- Sam Marrocco Chief Technical Officer 248-548-2500 Main 248-910-3344 Cell "Just because no one understands you doesn't make you an artist." RINGSIDE CREATIVE | INTEGRATED MEDIA STUDIO™ http://www.ringsidecreative.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Apr 3 17:39:00 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:39:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Schuyler Dunn wrote: > It is not important that a digital acquisition medium be able to > replicate EVERY quality of the film medium, only EVERY VIEWABLE > quality. This is an interesting statement. Why do you feel that digital acquisition should replicate every VIEWABLE quality of legacy film? If you forget that film ever existed, then digital acquisition should be capable of replicating every VIEWABLE quality from the original scene, yet this begs the question of what constitutes a VIEWABLE quality. The capability of viewing something depends substantially on how it is reproduced and the viewing environment. The best reproduction technologies we have today are not capable of reproducing everything that a human can decern. If everything is sufficiently reproduced then the human will believe that they are actually "there" but we are quite far from that perfection now. Available "HDTV" technologies and transmission mechanisms are quite far away from what the human can decern. As reproduction technologies and implementations improve, inadequately captured content will become more and more obvious to the viewer and will become less valuable over time. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 17:58:53 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:58:53 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > As reproduction technologies and implementations improve, > inadequately captured content will become more and more obvious to > the viewer and will become less valuable over time. a few things occurred to me reading this Bob. First, and forgive a small digression, but what is 'inadequately captured content?' musings: content: that which an artist (assuming we're talking about an art form) sees as raw material. captured content: that which the artist can [sculpt, cleave, paint, manipulate] from. a block of granite, a series of image files. inadequately captured content: raw material that doesn't cover the range the artist needs (soft granite, truncated files). I think the viewer is the audience, so it's up to the artist (DoP, Director, Colorist, Art Director) to decide, instead of the viewer (though you might have included the artist in the 'viewer' term). At some point, engineering has to give way to the art, and the latter is in its early stages, when it involves such ideas as "shooting flat," "light it in [photoshop, Resolve, Baselight]." The art of filmmaking is evolving more toward post-production, and the DoP's position is changing. It's either an advancement or a regression, or just inevitable. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Apr 3 18:14:33 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:14:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > At some point, engineering has to give way to the art, and the latter is in > its early stages, when it involves such ideas as > "shooting flat," "light it in [photoshop, Resolve, Baselight]." The art of > filmmaking is evolving more toward post-production, > and the DoP's position is changing. It's either an advancement or a > regression, or just inevitable. It is interesting that you say that filmmaking is evolving more toward post-production. From what I have heard, productions which use digital capture typically capture far more content than they would have if they used film. This is often due to uncertainty over the usability of the captured content than because digital capture is cheaper than film. With viewfinders and typical field equipment it may not be possible to adequately evaluate if the captured content is ok. If the captured material lacks in quality such as resolution or dynamic range, then it is not really possible to "fix it in post". Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Apr 3 18:07:26 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:07:26 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02F7A451-7F80-4CB5-A304-6F049D4376D8@prestodigital.ca> Depends on the content itself, I think. The Zapruder/Dallas Super-8 might still be the most important film exposed in the 20th century. Inadequate? Oh yes. For entertainment? I've got an associate starting to shoot a documentary exploring the "theatrical experience" -- how its valued (and de-valued) across cultures. The jaded and decadent West are split between multi-million dollar private suites with black-tie service and then you have the fast-food-malls, for example... contrast this with the Indian subcontinent, where people will bicycle for a day to catch a flick watched in a box, just like a nicklodeon. Google "Sacred Cinema" if you're interested. These days, on a set, the producer will stride around informing everyone how much they "saved" NOT shooting on film... Certainly not the property itself.... ;-) which is destined for the place where data goes when it does what it does. I'm guessing if these projects do manage to survive somehow (and I have no idea how that may be possible), the evolved-post-apocalyptic super-roaches will have seminars around the "missing" decades of human cinema -- :- P "Ah, yes, the "Red" period", they will all say and nod sagely. Hmmm. so much we could have learned.... Like the Library at Alexandria... On 3-Apr-09, at 10:39 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > As reproduction technologies and implementations improve, > inadequately captured content will become more and more obvious to > the viewer and will become less valuable over time. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 18:35:07 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:35:07 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2009, at 8:14 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > It is interesting that you say that filmmaking is evolving more > toward post-production. From what I have heard, productions which > use digital capture typically capture far more content than they > would have if they used film. This is often due to uncertainty over > the usability of the captured content than because digital capture > is cheaper than film. With viewfinders and typical field equipment > it may not be possible to adequately evaluate if the captured > content is ok. right, they shoot a lot more footage (for lack of a better word), at a wider angle, with less attention to lighting, etc. These are generalizations. > If the captured material lacks in quality such as resolution or > dynamic range, then it is not really possible to "fix it in post". that's right, and that's why the DoP's influence is changing from one of shooting it right, to posting it right. Of course often he or she is not around to posting it right, because he/she's on the next project. it's a shift a long time in the making, that seems now in the completion phase, this change to the DoP's role. And the DoP, to me, was the one with whom I had the closest affinity. From this you can make some more conclusions, like, the colorist is less theme-oriented than object-oriented. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 18:53:50 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:53:50 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <630188C1-0F79-4C66-B2F0-05A1F56D1D61@colorist.org> On Apr 3, 2009, at 8:35 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > in the completion phase, this change to the DoP's role. And the > DoP, to me, was the one with whom I had the closest affinity. From > this you can make some more conclusions, like, the colorist is less > theme-oriented than object-oriented. I should have mentioned that this doesn't happen at the higher artistic levels of feature films and other productions where the creative process is more inclusive. But, take a commercial.. nowadays often the first thing I'm asked, right after I arrive at a new scene after the slate, and in the few nanoseconds before I get the balance ready for manipulation, the questions arise immediately: "what about a mask for the right side, and can you isolate and track that guy on the left so our attention...." as a colorist today, you have to absorb this for delayed processing while doing the balance, agreeing that certainly all of this will come to pass; even it occurs often that before you have entered into grading, the client asks "what about a second pass for the grape-leaf cluster in the upper left...." :) it's either a lot of fun, or you wonder if anyone's ever seen 'film' before. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 19:34:04 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 21:34:04 +0300 Subject: [Tig] technical discussions wiki page request. Message-ID: at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Technical_discussions we have discussion threads indicated where the state of monitor technology was discussed in some detail, but it was a year ago. I could comb through all the postings about monitors in the last year, available at http://tig.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/ , but if someone has the time and inclination to do this, they would receive credit for TIG contribution and instantly become famous. or at least gain some recognition. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin.founder rob at colorist.org From doctorossi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 19:25:56 2009 From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <3C7D1148-9FB6-4E4F-B8EC-ABB4A186C3D9@colorist.org> Message-ID: <238599.72208.qm@web57707.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > It was determined, back in the early DI days, and in the > case at least of Hollywood, at Efilm, that even though the > film recorders were working at 2K, the images looked > significantly better when the original negative was scanned > at 4k and down-res'ed to 2k before the film out. This in > comparison to scanning at 2K, and recording out at 2K. Yes, absolutely. And some amount of oversampling would surely be of benefit. There is, however, a point of not just diminishing, but diminished returns, and that point would be arrived at long before getting into hundreds-of-thousands-of-horizontal-pixels territory. Schuyler Dunn From doctorossi at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 19:32:37 2009 From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <876058.74790.qm@web57707.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > This is an interesting statement. Why do you feel that digital > acquisition should replicate every VIEWABLE quality of legacy film? I don't, actually. I was speaking in terms of the argument to which I was responding. The original statement referred to a method of creating a digital capture device which replicates the acquisition of a film capture device. I was trying to suggest that such an approach is not strictly necessary if the goal is to replicate the final look of film as seen in the cinema. I was not trying to suggest that such a goal is an absolute one in the abstract. Schuyler Dunn From russellc at davsys.com Fri Apr 3 21:40:26 2009 From: russellc at davsys.com (Russell Chesley) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:40:26 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> Bob Friesenhahn wrote in an earlier post: > The best reproduction technologies we have today are not capable of reproducing > everything that a human can decern. If everything is sufficiently reproduced then > the human will believe that they are actually "there" but we are quite far from that > perfection now. Not to overstate the case for film, but there is a technology that, when shot, posted and presented right, DOES make the viewer believe that they are "there" -- Showscan (70mm at 60fps). Cheers, Russ Chesley da Vinci Systems russc at davsys.com 626.390.8002 (direct) www.davsys.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 3 21:47:19 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:47:19 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: <9FFA421A-1CFA-449D-98F8-CBEE06F4B811@colorist.org> On Apr 3, 2009, at 11:40 PM, Russell Chesley wrote: > Not to overstate the case for film, but there is a technology that, > when > shot, posted and presented right, DOES make the viewer believe that > they > are "there" -- Showscan (70mm at 60fps). true. and not to overstate the case for film at slower frame rates, there are reasons not to shoot at such high temporal resolution. they are: evocative storytelling.. creating distance between story and viewer... distancing image from viewer that otherwise might be conceived as video... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From russellc at davsys.com Fri Apr 3 21:57:22 2009 From: russellc at davsys.com (Russell Chesley) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:57:22 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <9FFA421A-1CFA-449D-98F8-CBEE06F4B811@colorist.org> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com><090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> <9FFA421A-1CFA-449D-98F8-CBEE06F4B811@colorist.org> Message-ID: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37758@exg01.davsys.com> Absolutely true... which brings us back to the dilemma of "how good is good enough" -- For viewing today? In which medium? For archiving? For viewing in the future? ...and as you mentioned, Rob, what does "good" even mean in terms of achieving the appropriate effect upon the viewer? Russ russc at davsys.com 626.390.8002 [mobile] From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Apr 3 22:05:17 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:05:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Russell Chesley wrote: > > Not to overstate the case for film, but there is a technology that, when > shot, posted and presented right, DOES make the viewer believe that they > are "there" -- Showscan (70mm at 60fps). So with this technology a scene could be captured, graded perfectly to match the original scene, and an unknowning person seeing the image would actually believe that they were there and not just seeing a rendition? Consider me to be to be a doubting Thomas until I experience this for myself. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Apr 3 22:10:15 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:10:15 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37758@exg01.davsys.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> <9FFA421A-1CFA-449D-98F8-CBEE06F4B811@colorist.org> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37758@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: When the storyteller connects to the audience? Blair Witch needed to convey that it was a bunch of people running around in the woods with personal cameras, so sending a 150-person crew with a battery of super35 bodies and Superspeeds wouldn't have been appropriate. However, it sent the wrong message, or it got interpreted as, Hey! we can shoot movies on Handycams! On 3-Apr-09, at 2:57 PM, Russell Chesley wrote: > what does "good" even mean in terms of > achieving the appropriate effect upon the viewer? Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From russellc at davsys.com Fri Apr 3 22:16:55 2009 From: russellc at davsys.com (Russell Chesley) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:16:55 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com><090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D3775F@exg01.davsys.com> I will leave it to others to confirm my statement, but I saw precisely this uncanny effect demonstrated and delivered in over 100 different settings (theatres, theme parks, museums, world fairs, international exhibitions, trade shows, etc.) many times over a 20+ year period. Russ russc at davsys.com 626.390.8002 [mobile] -----Original Message----- From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us] Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:05 PM To: Russell Chesley Cc: tig Subject: Re: [Tig] Camera thoughts On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Russell Chesley wrote: > > Not to overstate the case for film, but there is a technology that, when > shot, posted and presented right, DOES make the viewer believe that they > are "there" -- Showscan (70mm at 60fps). So with this technology a scene could be captured, graded perfectly to match the original scene, and an unknowning person seeing the image would actually believe that they were there and not just seeing a rendition? Consider me to be to be a doubting Thomas until I experience this for myself. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Apr 3 22:37:04 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:37:04 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D3775F@exg01.davsys.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D3775F@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: <9E524180-2376-4087-B163-9AD644B8AC1C@prestodigital.ca> > > I will leave it to others to confirm my statement, but I saw precisely > this uncanny effect demonstrated and delivered in over 100 different > settings (theatres, theme parks, museums, world fairs, international > exhibitions, trade shows, etc.) many times over a 20+ year period. > I can support this personally from a viewing at the Vancouver Expo '86 Showscan exhibit -- I got vertigo, and I don't get vertigo. It was the downhill skiing segment that put me over the line. Ah, I thought, so that's what people are complaining about, because it's completely outside my experience, otherwise. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Apr 3 22:45:21 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:45:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D3775F@exg01.davsys.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com><090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D3775F@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Russell Chesley wrote: > > I will leave it to others to confirm my statement, but I saw precisely > this uncanny effect demonstrated and delivered in over 100 different > settings (theatres, theme parks, museums, world fairs, international > exhibitions, trade shows, etc.) many times over a 20+ year period. Remarkable. My first response as I see the sun-lit lion about to leap out of the screen and consume me is "Hey! Who turned the lights off?". Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From mithun.dsouza at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 08:44:04 2009 From: mithun.dsouza at gmail.com (Mithun D'Souza) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:14:04 +0530 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts Message-ID: Hi guys Just reading through all the material published about the RED and its work flows over the days and I am just curious about how they managed to get stunning images at the IBC then? I was fortunate enough to check out the 4k projector that was almost as tall as me at the venue and I sat at relative distance from the screen to ensure I could catch a glimpse of glitches if any. What was the trick there? In my honest opinion, looking at their images being projected off a sony cinealta 4k with a gigantic lamp did look pretty awesome. But then again, I am no pro at this. Just wondering what the trick behind the imagery is then considering all that has been said so far? Also, with their recommended post tools and without having to per say "reinvent the wheel", we've actually managed to go through many projects, honestly, without much hassle. (FCP - Scratch - Deliverable) Thanks and regards Mithun D'Souza Workflow Consultant From tims at blacklistfilm.com Fri Apr 3 23:22:05 2009 From: tims at blacklistfilm.com (Tims Johnson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:22:05 -0700 Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: <2C0C789A-5304-42BB-A785-0F99F9357438@colorist.org> References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> <2C0C789A-5304-42BB-A785-0F99F9357438@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I don't think you can call it RAW, that's a term better applied to > still cameras that don't use upsampling nor > compression Hello Rob, I understand the concern with referring to the RED as having a RAW workflow. I am definitely interested in seeing a standardized Raw format with some clear specifications. I'm sure this has been debated somewhere on the list. When talking about .R3D files and processing REDCODE RAW, I am making the distinction that the camera records Raw sensor data which needs to be demosaiced to be viewed as an image. This workflow is very similar to post processing Raw images from a DSLR. Associating a Raw workflow with the REDCODE RAW workflow is helpful in understanding how it works. I agree it would be nice if we could refer to something as Raw and understand immediately what that means. Using Raw to describe any format can be tricky. Nikon, Sony, Canon, and Kodak all have file formats they refer to as Raw, each with different specifications when it comes to compression, metadata, and even encryption. Both Nikon and Kodak Raw files have a provision for compression, and on some of their cameras it can be enabled as an option. REDCODE RAW does use wavelet based compression on its sensor data. If it were possible to see a version with this compression and without compression side by side, I think it would be hard to tell the difference just by watching them. Until there is a standard Raw format, it's hard to be clear when grouping the current formats together. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the differences in upsampling on the RED vs. Raw DSLR. Or perhaps a link to a good discussion. Thanks. Tims Johnson Blacklist Productions Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 818.728.6885 From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sat Apr 4 16:03:39 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:03:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] RED workflow on Honda Generator spots--Oliver Peters blogs about it. In-Reply-To: References: <668644DD-E1F8-4002-9E39-D8042A4EFD60@blacklistfilm.com> <2C0C789A-5304-42BB-A785-0F99F9357438@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Tims Johnson wrote: > Hello Rob, I understand the concern with referring to the RED as having a RAW > workflow. I am definitely interested in seeing a standardized Raw format > with some clear specifications. I'm sure this has been debated somewhere on > the list. When talking about .R3D files and processing REDCODE RAW, I am The only published standard format I am aware of for RAW images is Adobe's DNG ("Digital Negative") format. It is an extension of the TIFF file format. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Negative_(file_format) Unfortunately, it has not seen much adoption. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Sat Apr 4 20:59:26 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:59:26 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Apollo 11 remastering Message-ID: David Crosthwait sent this along, pertinent t to a recent discussion on the TIG: http://www.dcvideo.com/apollo-11-footage.html -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From tkvenezuela at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 01:12:34 2009 From: tkvenezuela at hotmail.com (Ricardo Acosta) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 00:12:34 +0000 Subject: [Tig] film density Message-ID: Hello: I have film that the bar code reader fails to read, (Digisync). My assistant worked for many years at a Lab and he afirms that the film has been developed with a higher sensitometry curve than the manufacturer recommends, (Fuji). Has anyone had this problem and how can it be fixed? Thank you: Ricardo Acosta, Colorista Director. Telecine de Venezuela, Caracas. _________________________________________________________________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Apr 5 02:37:15 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:37:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] SGI delisted, and now purchased Message-ID: SGI used to play a big role in the post-production space and SGI hardware was used in making many wonderful films. On March 9th SGI was delisted from NASDAQ and on April 1st it was purchased for a pittance by an outfit called Rackable Systems. http://www.sgi.com/company_info/newsroom/press_releases/2009/march/nasdaq.html http://www.sgi.com/company_info/newsroom/press_releases/2009/april/rackable.html Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From carl at stopp.se Sun Apr 5 07:49:02 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 08:49:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Red workflow, conform features In-Reply-To: <49D636B3.8070403@ringsidecreative.com> References: , <49D636B3.8070403@ringsidecreative.com> Message-ID: Well, the EDL's reelnumber is coresponding to the filename. So if my EDL says A001C001 or A001_C001_0903XY then maybe I could use some kind of "EDL-aware-ftp-client" to copy the stuff needed from the LTO3a. I'm gona try with an app that makes FTP's apear as normal mounts on a Mac. If that works then I should be able to use Monkey. /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From rob at cinelab.com Sun Apr 5 04:16:43 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 23:16:43 -0400 Subject: [Tig] film density In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hello: > I have film that the bar code reader fails to read, (Digisync). I know that our Aaton Keylink readers have an adjustment for dense negative and it should be able to be read. Are you sure that you do not have edge fogged film? I find that can usually be read too further into the roll. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Sun Apr 5 09:53:08 2009 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 10:53:08 +0200 Subject: [Tig] camera thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D87174.6090405@free.fr> Just a guess, noise reduction, extra contrast, sharpness and 30fL+ on the screen, that should give you something "stunning". Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipelines&workflows back from Cairo > Hi guys > > Just reading through all the material published about the RED and its work > flows over the days and I am just curious about how they managed to get > stunning images at the IBC then? From erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com Sun Apr 5 10:44:42 2009 From: erik at monkeyswithchopstix.com (Erik Hansen) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 02:44:42 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Red workflow, conform features In-Reply-To: References: , <49D636B3.8070403@ringsidecreative.com> Message-ID: <410DF2D4-7DE6-4319-9B83-AA645CC89E07@monkeyswithchopstix.com> The problem I see is that Monkey Extract looks for all the footage used in the EDL, it only looks in one location for all the R3D files. So you will need to break down your EDLs into sources (c list?). Hopefully your tapes are labelled or trackable with what "rolls" are there. Haven't used an LTO-A series drive but if you know what's on the tape and you can browse the tape with commandline tools. Shouldn't be hard to ncftp/curl/wget the files/directories you need. Best, Erik Erik Hansen Modern VideoFilm Datalab/Red/DigitalMedia/VOD --- All grammar and spelling errors due to fat thumbs and a virtual keyboard. On Apr 4, 2009, at 11:49 PM, Carl Skaff wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > RTI Film Group supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Well, the EDL's reelnumber is coresponding to the filename. > So if my EDL says A001C001 or A001_C001_0903XY then maybe I could > use some kind of "EDL-aware-ftp-client" to copy the stuff needed > from the LTO3a. > I'm gona try with an app that makes FTP's apear as normal mounts on > a Mac. If that works then I should be able to use Monkey. > > /carl > > > > Carl Skaff > _____________________ > Head of Telecine > Stockholm Postproduction > www.stopp.se > phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 > fax: +46 8 32 77 22 > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From jim.houston at mindspring.com Sun Apr 5 18:01:59 2009 From: jim.houston at mindspring.com (Jim Houston) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:01:59 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Plasma Displays In-Reply-To: References: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E9175C7493@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Message-ID: <879E2645-C67B-4C18-9B7A-279403354BE8@mindspring.com> On Mar 15, 2009, at 8:46 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > What's up with that? Has the raw sex-appeal of Plasma become more > important than stability and accuracy? The plasma image still just looks better from a qualitative standpoint. The real issue is that the changes of color with viewing angle to the LCD is unacceptable for grading use. Most viewing angle measures talk about a certain delta in color that is acceptable for the angle that is stated, This number may be sufficient for consumer use but is not for grading. A very typical problem is if you raise or lower your head from the centerline of the display, the darkness of the background changes, and some colors also become more desaturated. This means that you not only have to sit at the center of the display but your head height must be the same each time you use it. You see this problem with laptops in that changing the angle of the screen causes the same problem. The angle you are using is information that is also necessary to be 'matched' by someone else for the exacting standards of a grading suite. A plasma doesn't suffer from the uniformity problems of viewing angle and is thus much preferred. I would consider it a second choice after a 3-chip DLP projector, but those are too pricey to put everywhere. I would rather have a display that meet my standards with calibration needed on a frequent basis, than to lower the standard and try to accept a marginal viewing angle restricted device, that will look different to the client sitting three or four feet to the left. Jim Houston Starwatcher Digital Pasadena, CA From adrian at autotv.co.uk Mon Apr 6 09:50:08 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:50:08 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Camera thoughts In-Reply-To: <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> References: <447336.57984.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <090AABB6E4E8BD4D9E38C93EF065450501D37750@exg01.davsys.com> Message-ID: On 3 Apr 2009, at 21:40, Russell Chesley wrote: > > Not to overstate the case for film, but there is a technology that, > when > shot, posted and presented right, DOES make the viewer believe that > they > are "there" -- Showscan (70mm at 60fps). > I've seen a bit of Showscan, but I never believed I was 'there'. To be honest, a modern FPS computer game played on a 30" LCD with a powerful gfx card gives a better impression of 'being there'. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From jfmann at optimum.net Mon Apr 6 11:57:55 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:57:55 -0400 Subject: [Tig] 35mm Celco MPX Film Recorder's In-Reply-To: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65F05@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> References: <8CB81BCC9090B02-BC8-F3C@webmail-dh33.sysops.aol.com> <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65F05@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> Message-ID: <000001c9b6a6$8a27cba0$9e7762e0$@net> Bob Micheletti wrote: the drawback. You must use 5245 because 5244 is much too low in EI. Sadly 5245 is discontinued in 2006 its' replacement is 5201 Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 C 516-250-0909 F 212 941 0439 http://www.postworks.com http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com Wed Apr 8 00:19:11 2009 From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:19:11 -0700 Subject: [Tig] 35mm Celco MPX Film Recorder's In-Reply-To: <000001c9b6a6$8a27cba0$9e7762e0$@net> References: <8CB81BCC9090B02-BC8-F3C@webmail-dh33.sysops.aol.com> <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65F05@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> <000001c9b6a6$8a27cba0$9e7762e0$@net> Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65F11@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> It's been a while...5244 was also replaced with 5242 and I know that! Must be the thought of a Celco MPX just taking me back in time. > From: Jim Mann [mailto:jfmann at optimum.net] > Bob Micheletti wrote: > the drawback. You must use 5245 because 5244 is much > too low in EI. > Sadly 5245 is discontinued in 2006 its' replacement is 5201 From avgeeks at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 22:30:28 2009 From: avgeeks at gmail.com (Skip Elsheimer) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:30:28 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? Message-ID: I've been seeing these units coming up for sale on Ebay. Who services these machines? Does anybody still use them? Looking to go from an old FDL-60 to an HD solution. Skip From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 9 12:46:49 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:46:49 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> Hi Skip, I hope you get some responses about this. In the meantime, if you want to see general information that was current as of around 2002, do a search of the TIG archives for "Vialta" at http://www.colorist.org/htdig/sample/search.html also, when I looked at a Vialta demo back in 2002 or so, it really looked good for HD. I recall it as a sprocket-drive machine (watch out for neg damage possibilities) and that there were rumors it didn't handle splices very well- that in some cases the colorist when shuttling found the machine would stumble over them in some fashion. I never confirmed this personally. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 9 13:04:56 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:04:56 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Apollo moon camera info Message-ID: David Crosthwait clued me in to this pdf describing in great detail the camera and video system used on Apollo 7. And I realized after reading it that integrated circuits were used. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.html -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 9 13:16:01 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:16:01 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Apollo moon camera info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2009, at 3:04 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11.html bummer they're using frames. so after going to that URL click on the left frame 5th from the bottom, "TV Essay." -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From simonastbury at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:46:56 2009 From: simonastbury at hotmail.com (simon astbury) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:46:56 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> Message-ID: > also, when I looked at a Vialta demo back in 2002 or so, it really > looked good > for HD. I recall it as a sprocket-drive machine (watch out for neg > damage > possibilities) and that there were rumors it didn't handle splices > very well- that > in some cases the colorist when shuttling found the machine would > stumble > over them in some fashion. I never confirmed this personally. Many other problems with the Vialta, impossibly slow changeover from 16mm to 35mm, very sensitive to vibration.However amazingly clear and crisp images. Jeff Booth should know more..... as Soho Images had one for a while. _________________________________________________________________ Free photo editing software from Windows Live . Try it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665240/direct/01/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Thu Apr 9 15:16:44 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 08:16:44 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> Message-ID: I never laid eyes on one, myself. It was poorly regarded by a regular contributor to the CML at the time, whose sig was "JS". As I recall, didn't it have some kind of capacitive sprocket "metaspeed"- type pin registration system? Anyway, SONY making telecines seemed like a stretch, as difficult as marketing a personal computer made by "Singer"? And I'm not making that up, they really tried. Its a classic branding catastrophe. > also, when I looked at a Vialta demo back in 2002 or so, it really > looked good > for HD. I recall it as a sprocket-drive machine (watch out for neg > damage > possibilities) and that there were rumors it didn't handle splices > very well- that > in some cases the colorist when shuttling found the machine would > stumble > over them in some fashion. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 9 16:28:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:28:34 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Anyway, SONY making telecines seemed like a stretch, as difficult > as marketing a personal computer made by "Singer"? And I'm not > making that up, they really tried. Its a classic branding > catastrophe. the first time I ever saw the SONY brand name was on a miniature reel- to-reel 1/4" portable audio deck, a marvel in the early 60s. I wonder what would be the biggest product SONY ever made, and the smallest? Maybe Vialta would be the biggest. If you took their tiniest camera, like from a celphone, and fabricated with LEDs a miniature super8 projector, you'd have a WalkCine. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From avgeeks at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 16:34:57 2009 From: avgeeks at gmail.com (Skip Elsheimer) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:34:57 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> Message-ID: Thanks everybody for the feedback. Rob, I'll make a donation to the TiG for cultivating such an informed group of folks. WalkCine! Speaking of tiny things, LEDs and film. Here's a guy who made a miniature theater with a working projector out of Legos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUADh45zDdA Skip Elsheimer www.avgeeks.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 9 16:40:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:40:03 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0CCA3F64-1D31-48C1-BD48-2200AD6BEBEA@colorist.org> On Apr 9, 2009, at 6:34 PM, Skip Elsheimer wrote: > WalkCine! Speaking of tiny things, LEDs and film. Here's a guy who > made a miniature theater with a working projector out of Legos: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUADh45zDdA I've seen some other Lego projects that were almost as inventive. But nothing beats what happened in Russia in the 19th Century- that is, what Cross-Eyed Left from Tula did with the Steel Flea. http://tinyurl.com/cfo589 -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ken at flight4.org Thu Apr 9 19:58:40 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:58:40 -0300 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: <0CCA3F64-1D31-48C1-BD48-2200AD6BEBEA@colorist.org> References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> <0CCA3F64-1D31-48C1-BD48-2200AD6BEBEA@colorist.org> Message-ID: <005f01c9b945$34b3a440$6500a8c0@flight4> Bit late... BUT, they were great value for money... now could be risky for spare parts etc. In a race, I saw 16 to 35 chang over done in less that 2 mins. I was always a bit worried about the pin registration being done on all film.... Including non pin reg... but I never heard anyone actually complain about this. ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 From fancourt01 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 9 23:11:35 2009 From: fancourt01 at hotmail.com (Fancourt McDonald ) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 22:11:35 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? Message-ID: I've used a few. Ok machines when new, a little noisy with 16mm but the biggest draw back with these machines is the transport. Overly complicated and as time and general wear and tear take their toll can become quite the headache. As the pad rollers touch the film, they're quite a dirty machine too. Justin McD Colouris CE -----Original Message----- From: Skip Elsheimer Sent: 4/8/2009 9:30:28 PM To: tig at tig.colorist.org Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 RTI Film Group supports the TIG. ==== I've been seeing these units coming up for sale on Ebay. Who services these machines? Does anybody still use them? Looking to go from an old FDL-60 to an HD solution. Skip _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Fri Apr 10 08:01:46 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:01:46 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Mag Bays In-Reply-To: <0CCA3F64-1D31-48C1-BD48-2200AD6BEBEA@colorist.org> References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> <0CCA3F64-1D31-48C1-BD48-2200AD6BEBEA@colorist.org> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDC7@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Is it still possible to buy a switchable 16/35mm replay-only mag bay, such as the Albrecht MB51? Any guesstimate of cost? Steve Roberts Senior Post Production Engineer >BBC Studios and Post Production > >020 857 64556 >Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ > www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England From nicola.mazzanti.95 at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 14:32:15 2009 From: nicola.mazzanti.95 at gmail.com (Nicola Mazzanti) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:32:15 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Mag Bays In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDC7@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <49df4a5d.0437560a.1cad.5f12@mx.google.com> Yes, for sure they are still available at MWA (www.mwa-nova.com). I am not sure what will happen now that MWA and Sondor joined forces. I think they might 'rationalize' their production lines by offering just one model, either MWA or Sondor. If you want, I have contact info for a sales person - not sure if he's the right one for UK, though. I can give it to you off list, if you want. Nicola Mazzanti Consultant -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Steve Roberts - Post Production Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:02 AM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] Mag Bays Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 RTI Film Group supports the TIG. ==== Is it still possible to buy a switchable 16/35mm replay-only mag bay, such as the Albrecht MB51? Any guesstimate of cost? Steve Roberts Senior Post Production Engineer >BBC Studios and Post Production > >020 857 64556 >Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ > www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Apr 10 17:01:45 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:01:45 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Mag Bays--still available In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDC7@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> References: <65F6CEF9-778F-47AE-B495-6602E8B03564@colorist.org> <0CCA3F64-1D31-48C1-BD48-2200AD6BEBEA@colorist.org> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDC7@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <1C04B9CC-D604-4039-BB02-DE832DB79ACC@tedlangdell.com> Hi, Steve, On Apr 10, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Steve Roberts - Post Production wrote: > Is it still possible to buy a switchable 16/35mm replay-only mag bay, > such as the Albrecht MB51? Any guesstimate of cost? > > Steve Roberts > Senior Post Production Engineer >> BBC Studios and Post Production Yes, MB51's are available, as switchable units, and single format units with a variety of head stacks, including vinegar syndrome playback setups, and a new optical measurement technology will soon allow easy replay of shrunken magnetic material. You can contact the factory direct (although I understand Justin Haslam-Lucan has been in touch with you directly.) US/Canada folks can send me an e-mail or give me a ring at the numbers below, or see Justin, others from MWA and myself at NAB if you have more questions. Hope this is of help. Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell e-mail: ted at flashscan8us The flashtransfer Demo Tour is underway! See the 16mm flashtransfer in operation. NAB 2009 Las Vegas, April 19-24 Front Porch Digital Booth SU6117 SMPTE Sacramento Section, May 20 Los Angeles, San Francisco TBA AMIA Conference, St. Louis, Nov. 2009 From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 10 20:03:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:03:02 +0300 Subject: [Tig] macular degeneration news Message-ID: <5D4BAC6A-BDCF-43E5-9AED-F60179F568C0@colorist.org> Macular Degeneration is a debilitating disease, affecting many, especially those over 55 years of age; and especially those who have had sufficient UV exposure to trigger the disease. an interesting study was available today on the BBC website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7958838.stm -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 10 20:08:38 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:08:38 +0300 Subject: [Tig] looking for reels, spots. Message-ID: <62CFCA8A-3638-4800-BCA6-45881C525B1D@colorist.org> The Telecine Internet Group is in search of new material from Colorists. This material can be added on the TIG main page at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Main_Page and also, on the TIG colorist reels page at http://reels.colorist.org . The TIG is at a very high index level on the major search engines, due to its 17 year existence. please contact me personally off list, thank you. regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From carl at stopp.se Sat Apr 11 11:01:28 2009 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:01:28 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Masking on Spirit Classic Message-ID: Hey What "Masking" are people using when scanning kodak/fuji OCN on a Spirit Classic? Is there any "Masking" on a Spirit 4K/2K/HD, what do you use? (I'm not talking about black letterbox masking, I mean the Masking that changes how red blue is etc etc) /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From jfmann at optimum.net Mon Apr 13 03:54:18 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 22:54:18 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Masking on Spirit Classic Message-ID: <000001c9bbe3$23f7c320$6be74960$@net> Replacement post Hi Carl, I am not sure of the exact favor of Spirit or which controller your using, but I think we can give some general advice: I would recommend reading: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Masking_Tips_from_Dave_Corbitt Yes I know Dave's Document is for a Cintel machine, but it will give you an example of what you're going for. Setup the Kodak TAF. White point at 85% and the black level can just kiss the line. Also see: http://www.kodak.com/US/plugins/acrobat/en/motion/products/tools/telecine.pd f Fuji also has a setup film, and of course you can use the clients film if they shoot a MacBeth chart. Then step though the preset masking settings and see what yields the best fit. Which one does the best job of lining up the 6 vectors with their targets. Depending on the type of Spirit you can also create your own Masking presets, and store them. (If you do, write the matrix numbers on a piece of paper, as a backup) Good luck and Happy Easter! Jim Mann Freelance Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist C 516-250-0909 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. From fer at taboo-organika.com Mon Apr 13 20:22:40 2009 From: fer at taboo-organika.com (fer at taboo-organika.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:22:40 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Sony Vialtas? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090413142240.3ky706k0w08wcggg@webmail.taboo-organika.com> I WORKED WITH A VIALtA FOR SEVEN YEARS, IS A VERY GOOD MACHINE, IS TRUE THAT IT HAS SOME TROUBLES WITH THE TRANSPORT SPECIALLY WITH POSITIVE, NOW THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT SONY IS NOT GIVING ANY SUPPORT ANYMORE, SO IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH IT YOU WILL HAVE A BIG PROBLEM GETTING PARTS OR WATHEVER YOU NEED. FER MEDELLIN SENIOR COLORIST taboo-organika From ted at tedlangdell.com Mon Apr 13 22:59:10 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:59:10 -0700 Subject: [Tig] NAB--Second annual informal Quad-Telecine-Editor lunch--Please RSVP if you're planning to attend Message-ID: With just a week before NAB opens, we're anticipating the Second annual informal Quad-Telecine-Editor lunch on Tuesday, Apr. 21 at 12:30p.m. We've had some folks reply that they were planning to attend. Thanks! If you haven't done so yet, lease let me know off-list if you'll be attending. Park Seward offered to be a Greeter and arrive in advance to secure tables for all attending, and make that particular location obvious. Look for a Purple Memorex Quad reel I'd supply and copies of SMPTE bars printed on letter-sized paper as placemats. What say you to Central Hall Food Court? Park noted that the Central Hall food court had few people in it during a lunch-period when he was there last year, and suggests that would be a good spot for this year. (Hope the sparse use didn't say something about the food...) Hope you've had a good Easter weekend. Looking forward to seeing folks next Tuesday! Ted Ted Langdell Secretary Skype: TedLangdell e-mail: ted at quadvideotapegroup.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Apr 14 22:38:10 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:38:10 +0300 Subject: [Tig] NAB Focus Sheet for 2009 Message-ID: the following is from the TIG wiki at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 * 1 Aaton - Stand C8542 - http://www.aaton.com * 2 da Vinci at the 2009 NAB Show SL 3314 http://www.davsys.com * 3 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 * 4 High Tech, Prudent Cost Film in/Film Out from MWA Nova http://www.mwa-nova.com * 5 Digital Vision Stand SL8514 http://www.digitalvision.se/news/NAB2009.htm * 6 Cintel launches exciting New Products at NAB 2009 http://www.cintel.co.uk/ Stand SL2216 * 7 RTI Acquires Film Scanning and Recording Booth C2948 http://www.rtico.com * 8 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 http://www.cine-tal.com * 9 Autodesk at NAB 2009 Stand SL2120 http://www.autodesk.com/nab2009 * 10 FilmLight http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk will have presence on the following two stands: * 11 FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) http://www.FlandersScientific.com will be attending NAB 2009, booth(s) SU7025/SU72026. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adelle at laserpacific.com Wed Apr 15 18:23:42 2009 From: adelle at laserpacific.com (Andy Delle) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:23:42 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question Message-ID: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was it an additional FM carrier below the video FM band like laser disk was done? Or was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I seem to remember the latter as being the case. Andy Delle Laser Pacific Media Corporation From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Wed Apr 15 22:31:01 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029F020A@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> I'm pretty sure it used additional heads, but I have not seen one for quite some time. Craig Craig Nichols Ex 1"C-oholic - now digital filmoholic ;-) DFT ----- Original Message ----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org To: tig at colorist.org Sent: Wed Apr 15 10:23:42 2009 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 Adam Halasz supports the TIG. ==== Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was it an additional FM carrier below the video FM band like laser disk was done? Or was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I seem to remember the latter as being the case. Andy Delle Laser Pacific Media Corporation _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From spirit4k at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 23:32:16 2009 From: spirit4k at gmail.com (Craig Nichols) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:32:16 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question In-Reply-To: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> References: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> Message-ID: <5c9ca6590904151532g7bb8047dgbb62da62db243032@mail.gmail.com> If I remember right, it had extra heads. I haven't seen one of those in a long time. Craig Nichols Digital Film Technology On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Andy Delle wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > Adam Halasz supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was it an > additional FM carrier below the video FM band like laser disk was done? Or > was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I seem to remember the > latter as being the case. > > Andy Delle > Laser Pacific Media Corporation > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From weagles at bigpond.net.au Wed Apr 15 23:32:36 2009 From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (Warren Eagles) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 08:32:36 +1000 Subject: [Tig] r3d grading at NAB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Folks, The question I get asked the most when on the road grading and training is "Which is the best monitor" and "What is the best system for grading r3d files." I would imagine every manufacture making a color correction system will have an r3d solution at NAB. If not released then a Beta demo. It would be good to get feedback on this and any new monitor developments from NAB visitors. Great for people who cannot make the show this year. Warren Eagles Freelance Colorist Demo artist for DFT NAB 2009 From James_Deluca at crestdigital.com Thu Apr 16 01:16:32 2009 From: James_Deluca at crestdigital.com (James Deluca) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:16:32 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question References: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> <5c9ca6590904151532g7bb8047dgbb62da62db243032@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7AEC23BF938477499E736BF0C030A92F048B30@lincoln.crestdigital.com> AFAIR The BVH2800 replaced the vertical interval sync head option and substituted 4 smaller heads that recorded four channels of time-compressed (entire field's worth) digital (PCM) audio. James DeLuca Crest Digital Hollywood - Video Lab ________________________________ From: Craig Nichols [mailto:spirit4k at gmail.com] Sent: Wed 4/15/2009 3:32 PM To: Andy Delle Cc: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 Adam Halasz supports the TIG. ==== If I remember right, it had extra heads. I haven't seen one of those in a long time. Craig Nichols Digital Film Technology On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Andy Delle wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > Adam Halasz supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was it an > additional FM carrier below the video FM band like laser disk was done? Or > was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I seem to remember the > latter as being the case. > > Andy Delle > Laser Pacific Media Corporation > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Apr 16 01:45:50 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:45:50 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question In-Reply-To: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> References: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> Message-ID: <1B4D50AA-2A71-4C4F-9BF6-24722D9C96B0@tedlangdell.com> Hi, Andy, Additional heads in the upper drum writing PCM audio generated by an outboard A-D/D-A box with special card in the card cage. I have a pair of 2800's, BKH-2801 PCM processor and manuals. David Crosthwait at DC Video in Burbank also has at least one machine, if you need nearby consultation. Ted On Apr 15, 2009, at 10:23 AM, Andy Delle wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > Adam Halasz supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was > it an additional FM carrier below the video FM band like laser disk > was done? Or was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I > seem to remember the latter as being the case. > > Andy Delle > Laser Pacific Media Corporation > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell flashtransfer at NAB 2009 Las Vegas, April 19-24 Front Porch Digital Booth SU6117 Please call to set an appointment or e-mail us via flashscan8.us online From dlt at earthlink.net Thu Apr 16 04:55:51 2009 From: dlt at earthlink.net (David Tosh) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:55:51 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question In-Reply-To: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> References: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> Message-ID: <49E6AC47.3010500@earthlink.net> Andy Delle wrote: > Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was it an additional > ... was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I believe it recorded PCM using the sync head in the space where Type C optionally recorded the 16 or so lines of the vertical interval. Sunset Digital had at least one. It was probably sold in the auction. David Tosh From david at dcvideo.com Thu Apr 16 15:34:00 2009 From: david at dcvideo.com (david at dcvideo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:34:00 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question In-Reply-To: <49E6AC47.3010500@earthlink.net> References: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> <49E6AC47.3010500@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20090416073400.6kcn3nuu8kkk80gk@webmail.dcvideo.com> I too recall that it was the sync head track used for the digital audio. The last time I actually used a 2800 for a session was as a record machine (sync track record turned off) for a somewhat "auto assembly" of a Stevie Wonder music video in 1986 at Premore. I was doing shot by shot color correction using two boxes, one of which was the BVX 30. It was an all night session, with the producer sleeping on the couch. When he woke up, we of course went back and re-visited more than a few shots. The "look" he had in his head was a harsh, solarized burn at times. I believe that this was for Propaganda Films. David Crosthwait DC Video Archived Videotape Re-mastering 177 West Magnolia Blvd. Burbank, CA. 91502 818-563-1073 818-563-1177 (fax) 818-285-9942 (cell) DCFWTX at AOL.COM DAVID at DCVIDEO.COM WWW.DCVIDEO.COM Quoting David Tosh : > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > Adam Halasz supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Andy Delle wrote: >> Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was >> it an additional >> ... was it done with additional heads in the scanner? > > I believe it recorded PCM using the sync head in the space where Type C > optionally recorded the 16 or so lines of the vertical interval. > > Sunset Digital had at least one. It was probably sold in the auction. > > David Tosh > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 16 16:06:26 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:06:26 +0300 Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit Message-ID: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org> What benefits are there to running the Spirit in +6db gain mode, other than what I imagine is better signal-to-noise ratio? is there more dynamic range? are there any downsides? thanks in advance. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Thu Apr 16 16:17:42 2009 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:17:42 +0100 Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit In-Reply-To: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org> References: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDEB@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Worse signal to noise actually - you're just putting more gain into the head amp. Basically, it might help you with very dense film if you're not getting enough signal out. Normally you would run it in 0dB. Steve Roberts Senior Post Production Engineer >BBC Studios and Post Production > >020 857 64556 >Room 3501 Television Centre, Wood Lane, London, W12 7RJ > www.bbcstudiosandpostproduction.com BBC Studios and Post Production Ltd, Registered Office Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ, Registered Number 3593793 England -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: 16 April 2009 16:06 To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 Adam Halasz supports the TIG. ==== What benefits are there to running the Spirit in +6db gain mode, other than what I imagine is better signal-to-noise ratio? is there more dynamic range? are there any downsides? thanks in advance. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 16 16:39:30 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:39:30 +0300 Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit In-Reply-To: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDEB@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> References: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org> <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDEB@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <865AA7C1-534E-4F38-850E-F6EEEC4FED2F@colorist.org> On Apr 16, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Steve Roberts - Post Production wrote: > Worse signal to noise actually - you're just putting more gain into > the can I get more grain from +6db?, and, if not, what are some techniques for adding grain to spirit transfers? regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cfharr at erols.com Thu Apr 16 18:35:34 2009 From: cfharr at erols.com (Chuck Harrison) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tig] OT: Mocap animation for ethnic dance Message-ID: <20090416133534.CFE22523@ms17.lnh.mail.rcn.net> Hi, Definitely off topic but networking where I can... Just got involved in brainstorming a project wanting to use motion capture to preserve and share ethnic folkdance. Contact me at cfharr (at) erols (dot) com ...European mocap studios of special interest as first effort is likely to be Hungarian tanchaz. Plan is for public access thru Second Life. Cheers, Chuck From Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com Thu Apr 16 17:42:47 2009 From: Craig.Nichols at dft-film.com (Nichols Craig) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:42:47 -0700 Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit Message-ID: <62DAB953E22F4F4C855BB91C6FABDDA5029F020C@NEVCSMAIL05.am.thmulti.com> Film aperture can be used to enhance the grain. Running with a lower light setting and bring up gain in RGB matching (or +6db gain) will bring you closer to noise floor and possibly get more grain if you can live with compromised noise performance. It all depends on element. Your mileage may vary. Craig Nichols Digital Film Technology ------Original Message------ From: Rob Lingelbach To: Steve Roberts - Post Production Cc: Tig Tig Subject: Re: [Tig] +6db on Spirit Sent: Apr 16, 2009 8:39 AM Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 Adam Halasz supports the TIG. ==== On Apr 16, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Steve Roberts - Post Production wrote: > Worse signal to noise actually - you're just putting more gain into > the can I get more grain from +6db?, and, if not, what are some techniques for adding grain to spirit transfers? regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From ken at flight4.org Thu Apr 16 17:28:49 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:28:49 -0300 Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit In-Reply-To: <865AA7C1-534E-4F38-850E-F6EEEC4FED2F@colorist.org> References: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org><244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BDEB@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> <865AA7C1-534E-4F38-850E-F6EEEC4FED2F@colorist.org> Message-ID: <005401c9beb0$6eb05060$6500a8c0@flight4> Well... +6dB doesn't add very much of anything to the signal, unless you are in data mode... I really looked and saw almost no difference at all... What does happen though is that you can run less amps through the lamp... Which can help when things are on the edge so to speak.... Err like the white stuff in the skid plate gets dirty and no one has 12,000 euro to replace it!! Getting grain out of a Spirit... buy a Cintel machine maybe... ok, that was a low blow! Try, turning the lamp down as much as possible... sticking some ND in the gate... and stretch it. ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 ==== On Apr 16, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Steve Roberts - Post Production wrote: > Worse signal to noise actually - you're just putting more gain into > the can I get more grain from +6db?, and, if not, what are some techniques for adding grain to spirit transfers? regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From Stn3 at aol.com Thu Apr 16 17:36:43 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 09:36:43 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question In-Reply-To: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> References: <365b4ec3-1ec2-4f5d-83e6-2f126f257701@laserpacific.com> Message-ID: <3B0F872A641B4D5185D8BD0F5D5AD755@DESKTOP> It was done by heads on the scanner, and recorded in the Vertical Interval. Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Andy Delle Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 10:24 AM To: tig at colorist.org Subject: [Tig] Sony BVH 2800 Question Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 Adam Halasz supports the TIG. ==== Does anyone remember how the PCM audio on the BVH 2800 worked? Was it an additional FM carrier below the video FM band like laser disk was done? Or was it done with additional heads in the scanner? I seem to remember the latter as being the case. Andy Delle Laser Pacific Media Corporation _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 16 18:58:02 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:58:02 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: stick it on teh TIG? References: <005b01c9beb3$447f0bd0$6500a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Ken Robinson" > Date: April 16, 2009 7:49:07 PM GMT+03:00 > To: "'Rob Lingelbach'" > Subject: stick it on teh TIG? > > How many creative directors does it take to change a light bulb? > A. Let’s think outside the box. Does it have to be a light bulb? > > Q. How many telecine Colorists does it take to change a light bulb ? > A. i don't need light! its digital! > > Q: How many clients does it take to screw in a lightbulb? > A: Three. One to screw it in. Two to hold down the agency creative. > > Q. How many account executives does it take to change a light bulb? > A. How many would you like? > > Q. How many media people does it take to change a light bulb? > A. I first need to figure how many people the light will reach, and > then I can back out a number. > > Q. How many writers does it take to change a light bulb? > A. Change! I'm not changing crap! This is bullshit - who said to > change it? > > Q. How many art directors does it take to change a light bulb? > A. Does it have to be a light bulb? > > > Ken Robinson > > ken at flight4.org > flight4 at gmail.com > IM: ken at flight4.org (MSN), crash2010 (Skype), flight4 (GTalk) > http://www.satrycon.org/myfriends.html > mobile: > Skype ID: > +54 9 2941 637570 > crash2010 > > -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cnoellert at gmail.com Thu Apr 16 20:19:13 2009 From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:19:13 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: stick it on teh TIG? In-Reply-To: <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> References: <005b01c9beb3$447f0bd0$6500a8c0@flight4> <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0BF04D44-98D0-47C5-8905-FA78E8678A7C@gmail.com> My personal favorite... How many DPs does it take to screw in a light bulb? One... no two... wait... how many do we have on the truck? Chris -- SEA LEVEL VENICE | Visual Effects Chris Noellert : VFX/Flame Artist 69 Market Street, Venice, CA 90291 p. 310.664.0900 c. 310.699.2151 www.sealevelvfx.com From owen at ywwg.com Thu Apr 16 20:24:50 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:24:50 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: stick it on teh TIG? In-Reply-To: <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> References: <005b01c9beb3$447f0bd0$6500a8c0@flight4> <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> Message-ID: <1239909890.11281.113.camel@ywwg> Q: How many RED DPs does it take to change a light bulb? A: You still use light bulbs? From bill at asylumfx.com Thu Apr 16 23:39:00 2009 From: bill at asylumfx.com (bill laverty) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:39:00 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: stick it on teh TIG? Message-ID: <1239921540.12103.161.camel@debbie.asylumfx.com> Q. How many editors does it take to change a light bulb? A. I can change it but your not going to like it. Q. How many engineers does it take to change a light bulb? A. What exactly are you trying to do with this light bulb? not quite as related; Q. How many dead heads does it take to change a light bulb? A. None. They wait for it to burn out, than follow it around. -Bill Bill Laverty Chief Engineer Asylum Visual Effects 310 395 4975 From rob at cinelab.com Fri Apr 17 00:01:08 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:01:08 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Dumb FCP Frame rate question Message-ID: HI I have a Teranex and a Telecine... So I run the Telecine at 29.97 and run it through the Teranex to a Mac-Pro and capture in FCP HD-SDI 1080i Pro-Res (HQ) and I have frames (sort of) is there any way to modify the header of the Quicktime file to play at 23.98? I know I can fix this with Glue Tools but that is allot of export and import is there an easy way? Should I run the TK in 25fps PAL and go the uprez route from there? I know it is a cheap HD route but the files look fairly good and if they payed at 24 they would satisfy a certain market mostly students. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From adolfo at newhat.tv Fri Apr 17 06:03:51 2009 From: adolfo at newhat.tv (Adolfo Martinelli) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:03:51 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Dumb FCP Frame rate question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cinema Tools (it's included with FCP now) has a "conform" option that will change the quicktime file to the framerate you specify. i.e. 29.97-23.98. Adolfo Martinelli Colorist New Hat From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 17 06:36:20 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:36:20 +0300 Subject: [Tig] TIGNABFS09 update Message-ID: a few additions to the TIGNABFS09: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 * 1 Aaton - Stand C8542 - http://www.aaton.com * 2 da Vinci at the 2009 NAB Show SL 3314 http://www.davsys.com * 3 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 * 4 High Tech, Prudent Cost Film in/Film Out from MWA Nova http://www.mwa-nova.com * 5 Dark EnergyTM Suite 1230, Renaissance Hotel - http://www.cinnafilm.com * 6 Digital Vision Stand SL8514 http://www.digitalvision.se/news/NAB2009.htm * 7 Cintel launches exciting New Products at NAB 2009 http://www.cintel.co.uk/ Stand SL2216 * 8 RTI Acquires Film Scanning and Recording Booth C2948 http://www.rtico.com * 9 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 http://www.cine-tal.com * 10 Autodesk at NAB 2009 Stand SL2120 http://www.autodesk.com/nab2009 * 11 FilmLight http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk will have presence on the following two stands: DFT (SL13313) Aaton (C8542) * 12 FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) http://www.FlandersScientific.com will be attending NAB 2009, booth(s) SU7025/SU72026. * 13 Workflowers http://www.workflowers.net will have presence at Sony (N106LMR) and Autodesk (SL2120) * 14 NAB BOOTH Keisoku-Giken Co. Ltd. # SU-13913 http://www.keisoku.co.jp -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From geoffc at molinare.co.uk Fri Apr 17 10:24:55 2009 From: geoffc at molinare.co.uk (Geoff Cooper) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:24:55 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Tractability of calibration In-Reply-To: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org> References: <2AAAF71A-00A1-45A4-B778-FB965135FB8A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <98F2CCF0B39F475DB20EB0C6CAEDFB69@jeff> We have just received some of the new Sony BVM-L230 monitors. For our HD edit suites. Does anyone have experience with lining these up? Sony (UK) use the Eye-One Pro, but is that calibration traceable to an international std? I checked the BT-709 white co-ordinates on a Konica-Minolta CS100A. I got (x:y) of 0.317 : 0.342. I understand the spec. as 0.3127 : 0.3290. In the published spec I can find no reference to any tolerance to their spec. I guess its pretty close, but how far out do these figure need to be before they're out of spec? A colleague suggested +-0.03 is that true? Anyone else had experience of calibrating LCD's Regards Geoff Cooper Molinare London From ken at flight4.org Fri Apr 17 14:58:58 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:58:58 -0300 Subject: [Tig] A new Scanner... In-Reply-To: <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> References: <005b01c9beb3$447f0bd0$6500a8c0@flight4> <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> Message-ID: <006001c9bf64$a923a490$6500a8c0@flight4> Look what I found! http://www.dft-film.com/scanners/scanity.php And Rob, if you are still in trouble with grain, I have thought up some other ways to generate it from the Spirit! Give me a shout off list. ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 17 16:10:37 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:10:37 +0300 Subject: [Tig] A new Scanner... In-Reply-To: <006001c9bf64$a923a490$6500a8c0@flight4> References: <005b01c9beb3$447f0bd0$6500a8c0@flight4> <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> <006001c9bf64$a923a490$6500a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: <04E17EF3-5499-4CE2-A1C0-682D1E58FEDC@colorist.org> On Apr 17, 2009, at 4:58 PM, Ken Robinson wrote: > Look what I found! > > http://www.dft-film.com/scanners/scanity.php impressive. cost? I notice from the photos that the capstan wrap is about 50% of area, do you think this is safe given its high-speed specs? Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From gold at duplicorp.com Fri Apr 17 16:47:13 2009 From: gold at duplicorp.com (gold at duplicorp.com) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:47:13 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Dumb FCP Frame rate question Message-ID: <380-220094517154713381@M2W005.mail2web.com> Don't forget this process is destructive, so, conform a copy of your original file. Daniel Goldschlager DRG New Media Caracas Original Message: ----------------- From: Adolfo Martinelli adolfo at newhat.tv >Cinema Tools (it's included with FCP now) has a "conform" option that >will change the quicktime file to the framerate you specify. i.e. >29.97-23.98. >Adolfo Martinelli >Colorist >New Hat _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From rob at cinelab.com Fri Apr 17 17:40:00 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 12:40:00 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Dumb FCP Frame rate question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Cinema Tools (it's included with FCP now) has a "conform" option > that will change the quicktime file to the framerate you specify. > i.e. 29.97-23.98. Thanks that was retardedly simple.... I said it was a dumb question..... ;-) "You need to inverse telecine the transfer in Cinema Tools" It will not reverse telecine 1080i material without down rezzing it.... But again no need because you just conform... Thanks -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Apr 17 20:33:18 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:33:18 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Dumb FCP Frame rate question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17C9CA9F-581F-4920-A24B-5ACC5C265600@prestodigital.ca> > > "You need to inverse telecine the transfer in Cinema Tools" > > It will not reverse telecine 1080i material without down rezzing > it.... > Cinema Tools on its own does this, but the Cinema Tools plugin in the FCP Tool tab will keep the original resolution. The Panasonic 1080i FRC wouldn't work otherwise. But.... not so fast. This stems from a situation a few weeks ago where we were messing with the idea of transferring material that was originally shot at 24 at 29.97, and capturing frame-for-frame, then "playing", or rendering out at 23.98 -- all because of a lack of proper 23.98-->29.97 2:3 recording. The issue is that its a "Capture Now" grab in FCP, so there is no control on the A-Frame placement, so inverse telecine would otherwise be a hit-and-miss affair. Kind of like most of the edited 2:3 on 29.97 (excuse me... all of the) material that we get. ;-P It'd be a scary thing to do, but I'm wondering about the modify... timecode dialog within FCP application itself, you can change the code and maybe even the frame rate.... Weel, then I'm off to break something.. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From underscan at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 11:00:42 2009 From: underscan at gmail.com (underscan at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:00:42 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor Message-ID: <2296C922-85ED-4534-B8FF-58601701431C@gmail.com> Hi Is anyone here using HPs Dreamcolor and if so how did you connect it to your system? I´m currently working with SD Pal material so have thought of feeding the SDI signal to a converter box and then as Hdmi into the Dreamcolor. But for future and HD projects i´d want to use the 10bit panel. So what´s the best way to go for the signal? Any advice is mostly apprecitated =) cheerz mark -- underscan films | berlin From rob at colorist.org Sat Apr 18 11:15:14 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:15:14 +0300 Subject: [Tig] more additions to the NAB Focus Sheet Message-ID: <703BC5CD-757B-4B20-82C7-A31DA12328FD@colorist.org> last minute additions make this the final version: * 1 Aaton - Stand C8542 - http://www.aaton.com * 2 da Vinci at the 2009 NAB Show SL 3314 http://www.davsys.com * 3 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 * 4 High Tech, Prudent Cost Film in/Film Out from MWA Nova http://www.mwa-nova.com * 5 Dark EnergyTM Suite 1230, Renaissance Hotel - http://www.cinnafilm.com * 6 Digital Vision Stand SL8514 http://www.digitalvision.se/news/NAB2009.htm * 7 Cintel launches exciting New Products at NAB 2009 http://www.cintel.co.uk/ Stand SL2216 * 8 RTI Acquires Film Scanning and Recording Booth C2948 http://www.rtico.com * 9 Cine-tal - NAB2009 - Booth SL6024 http://www.cine-tal.com * 10 Autodesk at NAB 2009 Stand SL2120 http://www.autodesk.com/nab2009 * 11 FilmLight http://www.filmlight.ltd.uk will have presence on the following two stands: DFT (SL13313) Aaton (C8542) * 12 FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.) http://www.FlandersScientific.com will be attending NAB 2009, booth(s) SU7025/SU72026. * 13 Pandora – Booth Number SL3809 http://www.pandora-int.com * 14 Workflowers http://www.workflowers.net will have presence at Sony (N106LMR) and Autodesk (SL2120) * 15 NAB BOOTH Keisoku-Giken Co. Ltd. # SU-13913 http://www.keisoku.co.jp * 16 Photo-Sonics - Booth: SL7713 * 17 Bluefish444 NAB Booth # SL-7626 * 18 XDT Pty Ltd NAB Booth # SU-11419 -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Apr 18 15:31:23 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:31:23 +0300 Subject: [Tig] NAB Focus Sheet Message-ID: <1DAB0A10-9CF6-48F1-A4C3-C2FB89C1C8D8@colorist.org> the URL for the Focus Sheet is: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/TIGNABFS09 -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sat Apr 18 18:11:19 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:11:19 +0300 Subject: [Tig] a painting. Message-ID: <6EC8C07B-6160-417B-A131-2759E85B41BF@colorist.org> I ran across this painting today, here in Kiev. Besides the many impressionistic qualities of the work, I am in awe of the separations and subtleties of the yellows, greens, and shades of same. http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Image:DSC_2478.jpg if only we could produce such art. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Sun Apr 19 05:33:20 2009 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:33:20 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: stick it on teh TIG? Message-ID: <17FF9455-B6C4-424C-BA04-497AF10BD712@tedlangdell.com> Q: How many television executives does it take to change a light bulb? A: I don't know, but that's an interesting concept. Can you give us a pilot? Ted Langdell flashscan8.us 209 East 12th Street Marysville, CA 95901 Main: (530) 741-1212 Cell: (530) 301-2931 Skype: TedLangdell informal Quad/Telecine/Editor lunch at NAB-Tues. Apr. 21, 12:30p, Central Hall food court Check out how to spot the group at http://www.quadvideotapegroup.com From jfmann at optimum.net Sun Apr 19 16:46:22 2009 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:46:22 -0400 Subject: [Tig] +6db on Spirit Message-ID: <000101c9c105$fd9c83a0$f8d58ae0$@net> Hi guys, 0db/+6db switch......I always thought this circuit was originally designed to help when you where transferring a really dense positive print. Then we discovered that it is really useful if you had camera negative that was grossly overexposed. If you wish to create grain/noise/over enhancement and you're on a Classic Spirit [SDC2000] try lowering the Many people run at H7/V7. I suggest H2/V3, something like that. This gives the setting the ability to effect the coarser detail in the picture. In other words it trims the spatial frequency of the adjustment. Coring should be at 0%. You can also try the same technique on the Aperture side. Lowering the and pushing the at 0%. Will yield a similar effect. The daVinci colorist toolbox offers an alternative. There you can add the noise genny in. Then you can control it with a key. All of these give electronic noise which I do not care for. Of course you could have the DP flash the Neg! Ha! Good Luck & hope to see all of you in Las Vegas. Jim Jim Mann Freelance Colorist/Instructor/Consultant/demo artist/and anything else. http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann From jeffkreines at mindspring.com Mon Apr 20 01:23:25 2009 From: jeffkreines at mindspring.com (Jeff Kreines) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:23:25 -0500 Subject: [Tig] A new Scanner... In-Reply-To: <04E17EF3-5499-4CE2-A1C0-682D1E58FEDC@colorist.org> References: <005b01c9beb3$447f0bd0$6500a8c0@flight4> <74ECFD76-4D45-4E34-980A-D9B14013662F@colorist.org> <006001c9bf64$a923a490$6500a8c0@flight4> <04E17EF3-5499-4CE2-A1C0-682D1E58FEDC@colorist.org> Message-ID: <58C47AEF-E338-403E-9334-988D39CE6C3D@mindspring.com> Scanity. Add Bones and you get Scanity and Bones. For those in the US who have cable, this is awfully close to a recently-cancelled show on the not very fair or balanced network, Hannity and Colmes. That's what happens when products are named for international use. Eg, Chevy Nova and Enco. Jeff "the scanner of choice at Fox?" Kreines From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Apr 21 03:17:18 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 21:17:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] Archiving data Message-ID: I had heard of Sun's "Internet in a Box" contribution to the Internet Archive (http://www.archive.org/) but did not check it out until today. There is a nice page on "Internet in a Box" and the Internet Archive at "http://www.sun.com/featured-articles/2009-0325/feature/index.jsp". There have been many discussions here about how to best archive film and video content. Converting everything to data seems like a risk since the data could fail, or the format could become so antique that no one can figure it out. It turns out that the Internet Archive has already been dealing with the film/video issue. In the "Q&A" session they talk about the need to continually update video formats, and how it may require 1000 computers to do so. Archive storage like the Internet Archive needs to be migrated to new media every five years or so. This need to always keep the data in some degree of motion so that it does not become antique or expire is facinating. I don't work for Sun or Internet Archive. I am just a satisfied customer of both. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From joe at iglooedit.com Mon Apr 20 22:39:42 2009 From: joe at iglooedit.com (Joe Faissal) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:39:42 -0700 Subject: [Tig] a painting. In-Reply-To: <6EC8C07B-6160-417B-A131-2759E85B41BF@colorist.org> References: <6EC8C07B-6160-417B-A131-2759E85B41BF@colorist.org> Message-ID: <8E7B9F00-2BA3-4CBB-B4FE-F76DB4E3DAD9@iglooedit.com> Stunningly beautiful. Any clue as to who the artist is? Joe Faissal Igloo Editorial From rob at colorist.org Tue Apr 21 12:26:32 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:26:32 +0300 Subject: [Tig] a painting. In-Reply-To: <8E7B9F00-2BA3-4CBB-B4FE-F76DB4E3DAD9@iglooedit.com> References: <6EC8C07B-6160-417B-A131-2759E85B41BF@colorist.org> <8E7B9F00-2BA3-4CBB-B4FE-F76DB4E3DAD9@iglooedit.com> Message-ID: <24FEA496-B293-4DCE-B83A-529C2BFABE54@colorist.org> On Apr 21, 2009, at 12:39 AM, Joe Faissal wrote: > Stunningly beautiful. > Any clue as to who the artist is? I'll try to find out next weekend when it will be on display again. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Apr 21 14:13:44 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:13:44 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Archiving data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2009, at 5:17 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > I had heard of Sun's "Internet in a Box" contribution to the > Internet Archive (http://www.archive.org/) but did not check it out > until today. There is a nice page on "Internet in a Box" and the > Internet Archive at "http://www.sun.com/featured-articles/2009-0325/feature/index.jsp > ". It's an interesting project. I'm not sure that archive.org's data can be called "Internet in a Box," because the internet is by definition constantly in flux; maybe "Web in a Box" would be more accurate, though the WWW is also constantly changing, and so perhaps it should just be called "Archive.org in a Box." Since it's in a 20ft shipping container, it could be loaded on a truck, and then you'd have "Internet in a Box on a Truck." With tracking antennas for I/O, you could drive it around enough so that it would be immune to terrorism. (Internet in a Box on a Pallet on a Pirated Ship off Africa? better yet, put it in orbit!) > Archive storage like the Internet Archive needs to be migrated to > new media every five years or so. This need to always keep the data > in some degree of motion so that it does not become antique or > expire is facinating. I wish there were some sort of veracity check or peer-review process that could certify, to the standards of the university level, the accuracy of information, at least in the sciences. And some sort of statement applied to faked videos purporting to be truthful. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 22 06:39:52 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:39:52 +0300 Subject: [Tig] new Fuji film Message-ID: <6C59AF9E-158D-4630-9310-5E4235EA1730@colorist.org> Fuji announced a new film stock this week: http://tinyurl.com/c37w3a 500 E.I. tungsten "Eterna Vivid 500" any real-world experience notes would be welcome. I don't have any connection with Fuji. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From paul at cinelicious.tv Wed Apr 22 17:57:17 2009 From: paul at cinelicious.tv (Paul Korver) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:57:17 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Los Angeles D5 Deck Message-ID: We're in the middle of post on a short doc / PSA for the Joyful Heart Foundation (survivors of sexual assault, domestic violence & child abuse)... good cause etc. We need to digitize about 1/2 hour of 35mm footage for B-Roll to complete the piece. We have this footage on a couple of D5 tapes and a few shots digitized to ProRes 422 HQ 1080 23.98psf Quicktimes. Anyone with an available D5 deck attached to a Mac workstation with a Kona card in the LA area? We'll come to you. Probably take 1-hour. We'd be happy to pay any labor costs but hoping to get the deck time donated to the cause as the foundation is out of $ for the production. Thanks in advance. -Paul www.cinelicious.tv 323-933-1700 From panisset at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 22:23:36 2009 From: panisset at gmail.com (Jean-Francois Panisset) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 14:23:36 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor In-Reply-To: <2296C922-85ED-4534-B8FF-58601701431C@gmail.com> References: <2296C922-85ED-4534-B8FF-58601701431C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d4760ac0904221423h239f7fd4ib0c0bfe8f2dd716e@mail.gmail.com> Keep in mind that the only way to feed 10 bit per component to the DreamColor display is via the DisplayPort connector: DVI or HDMI will be 8 bit only. So until someone makes an HD-SDI to DisplayPort converter (didn't see one at NAB, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist) you will only be able to drive an 8 bit signal into the monitor. JF Panisset MPC Santa Monica, CA > > Hi > > Is anyone here using HPs Dreamcolor and if so > how did you connect it to your system? > I´m currently working with SD Pal material so have thought > of feeding the SDI signal to a converter box and then as Hdmi > into the Dreamcolor. > > But for future and HD projects i´d want to use the 10bit panel. > So what´s the best way to go for the signal? > > Any advice is mostly apprecitated =) > > cheerz > mark > From gregstaten at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 17:10:52 2009 From: gregstaten at gmail.com (Greg Staten) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:10:52 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor In-Reply-To: <2d4760ac0904221423h239f7fd4ib0c0bfe8f2dd716e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2296C922-85ED-4534-B8FF-58601701431C@gmail.com> <2d4760ac0904221423h239f7fd4ib0c0bfe8f2dd716e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3ad0347b0904230910u785bade4v9d5e01f990f10055@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jean-Francois. The HDMI connection on the HP DreamColor LP2480zx display is fully 1.3 compliant and can definitely receive 10-bit signals. The issue, though, is that many of the HD-SDI to HDMI converters we've evaluated are not 1.3 compliant and can only send an 8-bit 4:4:4 RGB signal via HDMI. This is changing, though, and I saw 1.3 compliant converters at AJA, Blackmagic, and Gefen at NAB this week. One of the AJA converters (the Hi5-3G) is waiting for me back at my office. The others are due to ship within the next weeks or months. HD-SDI to DisplayPort connectors are still a ways off from these and other manufacturers, but we should soon have quite a few options for 10-bit HDMI 1.3-compliant HD-SDI converters. Regards, -greg Greg Staten DreamColor Solutions Architect Hewlett-Packard Company On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Jean-Francois Panisset wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > Jon Merrifield supports the TIG. >  ==== > > > Keep in mind that the only way to feed 10 bit per component to the > DreamColor display is via the DisplayPort connector: DVI or HDMI will > be 8 bit only. So until someone makes an HD-SDI to DisplayPort > converter (didn't see one at NAB, but that doesn't mean it doesn't > exist) you will only be able to drive an 8 bit signal into the > monitor. > > JF Panisset > MPC > Santa Monica, CA > > >> >> Hi >> >> Is anyone here using HPs Dreamcolor and if so >> how did you connect it to your system? >> I´m currently working with SD Pal material so have thought >> of feeding the SDI signal to a converter box and then as Hdmi >> into the Dreamcolor. >> >> But for future and HD projects i´d want to use the 10bit panel. >> So what´s the best way to go for the signal? >> >> Any advice is mostly apprecitated =) >> >> cheerz >> mark >> > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From GWoodruff at cine-tal.com Thu Apr 23 15:45:34 2009 From: GWoodruff at cine-tal.com (Glenn Woodruff) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:45:34 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor In-Reply-To: <2d4760ac0904221423h239f7fd4ib0c0bfe8f2dd716e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2296C922-85ED-4534-B8FF-58601701431C@gmail.com> <2d4760ac0904221423h239f7fd4ib0c0bfe8f2dd716e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <912618C6E573784C933A7858F1B3F39D9D5C42@ROCK2000.AccessTech.loc> < JF Panisset said:> >>Keep in mind that the only way to feed 10 bit per component to the >>DreamColor display is via the DisplayPort connector: DVI or HDMI will >>be 8 bit only. So until someone makes an HD-SDI to DisplayPort converter... >>... you will only be able to drive an 8 bit signal into the monitor. I don't believe this is correct. If you're still at the NAB come by our (Cine-tal's) booth. I'm not there but I believe that we have a Davio demo where we're feeding 10-bit HDSDI to the Davio, applying multiple 65-point 3D LUTs, then feeding 10-bit HDMI into a DreamColor. I've done this and it looks great. Empirically I've found that if you bring in a ramp then switch the HDMI output of the Davio from 10-bit HDMI down to 8 there's clear banding on the Dreamcolor, so the 10-bit pathway seems to be intact. Finally I'll note that the DreamColor seems to actually be presenting 10-bit, unlike the Bravias and some other LCDs that appear to be dithering the bottom two bits when they get 10-bit HDMI in. Glenn Woodruff Senior Member of Technical Staff Cine-tal Indianapolis, IN From russlasson at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 16:55:47 2009 From: russlasson at gmail.com (Russell Lasson) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 08:55:47 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor Message-ID: <8F0B5B24-EF0B-4F2B-A1C8-49ABDB786762@gmail.com> Also, the new AJA Kona LHi has HDMI 10bit deep color support. As far as the monitor goes, when I saw it at NAB, it seemed that the black levels weren't really great. I didn't get to really see it in detail, but that was my first impression. I wonder if anyone has tried using an ND on the display. That seems to help with the black levels on other displays. -Russ Russell Lasson Colorist/Digital Cinema Technician Universal Post Salt Lake City, Utah From rob at colorist.org Fri Apr 24 19:59:53 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 21:59:53 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor In-Reply-To: <8F0B5B24-EF0B-4F2B-A1C8-49ABDB786762@gmail.com> References: <8F0B5B24-EF0B-4F2B-A1C8-49ABDB786762@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Russell Lasson wrote: > As far as the monitor goes, when I saw it at NAB, it seemed that the > black levels weren't really great. I didn't get to really see it in > detail, but that was my first impression. I wonder if anyone has > tried using an ND on the display. That seems to help with the black > levels on other displays. using an ND on a grading monitor seems somehow weird, like if it slipped a little, what would the client impression be? and now N are NDs, in practice? we can gel our lights, but gelling a monitor... feels wrong somehow. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From gregstaten at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 20:31:44 2009 From: gregstaten at gmail.com (Greg Staten) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:31:44 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dreamcolor In-Reply-To: <8F0B5B24-EF0B-4F2B-A1C8-49ABDB786762@gmail.com> References: <8F0B5B24-EF0B-4F2B-A1C8-49ABDB786762@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3ad0347b0904241231v3501ccdem5bedf34810dec153@mail.gmail.com> Unfortunately whenever I went by the booth (I was primarily in meetings) someone had cranked up the brightness to 250 cd/m2 which will raise the blacks. The display's blacks are rated at 0.05 cd/m2 (at a luminance setting of 50 cd/m2). -greg On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Russell Lasson wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > Jon Merrifield supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Also, the new AJA Kona LHi has HDMI 10bit deep color support. > > As far as the monitor goes, when I saw it at NAB, it seemed that the black > levels weren't really great. I didn't get to really see it in detail, but > that was my first impression. I wonder if anyone has tried using an ND on > the display. That seems to help with the black levels on other displays. > > -Russ > > Russell Lasson > Colorist/Digital Cinema Technician > Universal Post > Salt Lake City, Utah > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From rob at colorist.org Sun Apr 26 17:24:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:24:33 +0300 Subject: [Tig] nab,classifieds. Message-ID: I don't know how many TIG subscribers know about this, so please permit me a little bit of TIG promotion. Two colorists in the past week have received confirmed offers of employment via the TIG classifieds. One of them also posted their reel to the site. The availability of a reel can make a big difference, and there is also the chance to highlight a short section or spot on the main TIG page, independent of the reels.colorist.org site which is for more extensive colorist reels. Historically, going back 17 years, there has always been a flurry of TIG mailinglist activity before the National Association of Broadcasters Convention at Las Vegas, and then, after the show, a falloff in mailinglist activity. This seems never to change year after year. The reasons are that networking occurs during the show on personal levels, hence email or mailinglist contact is not as forthcoming after the exhibition. However, the TIG was first conceived as a conduit for information to colorists/engineers/managers who can't attend the major shows; thus any post-show debriefing and information exchange can be extremely valuable. We await reports from NABers as to what they saw that was noteworthy. regards Rob TIG admin/founder -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sun Apr 26 18:28:28 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 20:28:28 +0300 Subject: [Tig] Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. Message-ID: <4E8F0CBB-99E5-4667-B1A2-D5EEBA41CB2C@colorist.org> Trends in imaging processing of late have diminished the importance of film grain. Is this a fad, or a permanent conversion of observer values? It once was observed that film grain improved the viewer's distance from the subject, such that storytelling was enhanced via this distance. (viz.: sports or live / soap opera TV vs. film.) to some extent the same could be said of temporal resolution: 24 fps becomes superior to 30 fps, in the NTSC world. Is Immediacy, and its correlates, resolution, more important than the slight distance from subject that film's grain and framerate connote? Peter Swinson held forth here on the TIG several times about Stochastic Resonance: the relationship between particles (of grain for example) and images devoid of same: those images that included particles were observed to be sharper. this must be a subject for extreme study. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Apr 26 20:34:56 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:34:56 -0700 Subject: [Tig] NAB musings Message-ID: >We await reports from NABers as to what they saw that was noteworthy. I thought the new 23" Cinetal monitor with 10 bit panel looked good, although it's difficult to tell serious quality on the showroom floor, and they did not enclose it in any sort of darkened area. There are now knobs for some basic setup functions, as well as a light that goes on if anyone has diddled with the knobs after the indicator has been reset. Starts at around $13K with no options, can go to $25K fully loaded. They also showed a 42" version which I thought was less good. Their Davio LUT box seems to have come a long way since I first saw it at a technology demo in a hotel suite about a year ago, but I think it's too expensive with not enough features yet. Disclosure: No financial interest in Cinetal. The newish Panasonic 25" LCD which they put side by side with the top end Sony BVM LCD in a very dark cubbyhole looked very good in comparison. Not quite as good as the Sony, but then it's only about $5K. As the Panasonic rep pointed out, if you were going to buy the Sony but bought the Panasonic instead, you could buy a pretty decent new car with the difference... Disclosure: No financial interest in Panasonic. AJA showed a couple of nice new pieces of hardware, but I shill for them on occasion, so I'll leave it to others to talk about them. There was 3G stuff (dual link on a single cable with 3 Gb/s speed) everywhere, although frankly I know of very few places which are jumping into that right now. Every second booth had RED accessories for sale. Lots of 3D push from many places. What is interesting is that it seems to have gone straight to the low end of the quality scale without passing through the middle ground. The amount of low end 3D trash (stuff that's badly designed and implemented and the footage from which will give you a BIG headache if you watch more than 10 minutes of it) I saw was astounding. If this stuff gets out into the wild, 3D will die a miserable death once again, probably to rise like a phoenix in a decade or so. Avid has a new logo which looks like the shuttle indicators on a tape deck. I suppose that's something. Disclosure: I can't stand Avid and their remarkable arrogance, all the more interesting since they don't seem to make any money and are being beaten to death by Final Cut in most markets. And I would be just as happy if I never again had to deal with their stupidly myopic way of handling non-contiguous timecode. Although I have to admit my campaign of having shooters give their 800 support number to people who complain about broken timecode seems to be driving them crazy. But of course they STILL have yet to do anything to fix the problem, which is completely theirs, and has been in every piece of Avid software since dinosaurs roamed the earth, and has been pointed out to them REPEATEDLY by me and many others to some pretty high Avid management levels. And I have no financial interest (or any other sort, really) in Avid. According to one cab driver, show attendance was pegged by the cabbies at 40-50K maximum, significantly less than the 80-100K the NAB predicted. But the vendors said the people who did show up were looking for specific items and spending money. Cab lines were short. Booths were not crowded, food lines weren't either, and on Wednesday you could talk as much as you wanted to anyone in any of the booths. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Mon Apr 27 11:05:31 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:05:31 +0300 Subject: [Tig] NAB musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A12EAD2-63E8-4EAB-85C6-5FDCF26B4B6B@colorist.org> On Apr 26, 2009, at 10:34 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > As the Panasonic rep pointed > out, if you were going to buy the Sony but bought the Panasonic > instead, you > could buy a pretty decent new car with the difference... an Alfa MiTo or Peugeot 308? > If this stuff gets out > into the wild, 3D will die a miserable death once again, probably to > rise like > a phoenix in a decade or so. that does seem to be roughly the cycle. I think everyone's waiting for 4D. > According to one cab driver, show attendance was pegged by the > cabbies at > 40-50K maximum, significantly less than the 80-100K the NAB > predicted. But the > vendors said the people who did show up were looking for specific > items and > spending money. Cab lines were short. depending on the financial situation next year, I'll be happy to share my hiking route from the Vegas airport to the Convention Center, that cuts across one of the runways, through a golf course, and then into an endless abandoned development. a nice 90 minute ramble. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at cinelab.com Mon Apr 27 17:03:10 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:03:10 -0400 Subject: [Tig] NAB musings In-Reply-To: <7A12EAD2-63E8-4EAB-85C6-5FDCF26B4B6B@colorist.org> References: <7A12EAD2-63E8-4EAB-85C6-5FDCF26B4B6B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <962F8C5B-B74F-4924-813C-469690C04A34@cinelab.com> >> into the wild, 3D will die a miserable death once again, > that does seem to be roughly the cycle. I think everyone's waiting > for 4D. The forth "D" of course being Smell-O-Vision ;-) Sorry I saw a few of the latest 3-D films and I still think it does not add much and is (still) a bit of a gimmick so Mr Katzenberg aside I will not be running out to buy a set of Prada 3-D glasses. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From kevs at finalcolor.com Mon Apr 27 14:48:37 2009 From: kevs at finalcolor.com (Kevin Shaw) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:48:37 +0100 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Rob > I am not sure the importance of grain has diminished. As you probably know I > favor a non linear color grading system, and any time we have film original > material we discuss the merits of reducing or enhancing grain. Tools to do > that are included in the system I use. > > What¹s more significant is that I know of several projects shot on electronic > cameras, where grain is added to make the image appear sharper (because of > Dithering and all of the issues Mr Swinson explains so accurately). Since I > also have excellent sharpening tools at my disposal the preference for grain > is therefore a creative choice not a workaround. Linked to this is a request > to interpolate fields (if present) and create frames, which as you say is in a > way a related technique. > > I do agree that the increase in CG and computer games has influenced the > perception of grain in the younger generation, but I think that makes it an > even more useful tool at the colorists disposal. > > My question to the Tig would be does grain (or even noise in electronic > cameras) make an image seem more real? > Best > Kevin >>> >Trends in imaging processing of late have diminished the importance of >> film grain. >> >> Is this a fad, or a permanent conversion of observer values? >> > > Kevin Shaw freelance consultant colorist > Member of the International Colorist Academy > kevs at finalcolor.com www.finalcolor.com www.icolorist.com > ---------------------------------------------- From rob at colorist.org Mon Apr 27 18:01:51 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:01:51 +0300 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2009, at 4:48 PM, Kevin Shaw wrote: >> My question to the Tig would be does grain (or even noise in >> electronic >> cameras) make an image seem more real? without getting into the philological aspects of 'real,' I think grain adds an impressionistic veneer to film, in fact somewhat a removal from reality, such that we're reminded we're not watching a sports program or a soap opera. Used to be you could tell a soap by the organ music, but I think Dick Hyman doesn't do soaps any more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByULkdy8bWw try to disregard the sync problem. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From videogenie at aol.com Mon Apr 27 17:47:07 2009 From: videogenie at aol.com (videogenie at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:47:07 -0400 Subject: [Tig] Wanted URSA Turn key Message-ID: <8CB956EEFA14BB4-17D8-BAF@FWM-M32.sysops.aol.com> Looking for an URSA complete room DIAMOND turn key if possible,,,,,,,, If anything does come through Will compensate TIG may contact??? videogenie at aol.com ?*)o(* bls barry shankman EMAIL CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is intended for the sole viewing and use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential and privileged information, which is prohibited from disclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the information contained in this email, including attachments, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copy of this message, or any attachment, is strictly prohibited. If you have received a copy of this email in error, please notify the sender by reply email immediately, and remove all copies of the original message, including attachments, from your computer. Thank You From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Apr 27 19:24:47 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:24:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my opinion, the continual search for additional sharpness and contrast produces images which are uncomfortable for the viewer. I was in a store yesterday which had maybe 50 different LCD and Plasma displays going at once displaying the same HD "nature" footage. This "nature" footage did not look at all natural on any of the displays. It seems like the image should not appear sharper at closest recommended viewing distances than a person with typical 20/20 (20/15 corrected for me!) vision can perceive. Contrast levels should not be inflated to the extent that people and objects become caricatures of reality and are no longer believable. If I can not see a tiny pockmark on someone's face at 12 feet, then a TV showing a similar size face should not portray that tiny pockmark with the significance of a crater. Does anyone else agree? Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jeff.olm at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 19:51:06 2009 From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:51:06 -0700 Subject: [Tig] nab,classifieds. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43298eae0904271151x7906db75n4c6b610562200a86@mail.gmail.com> Rob, Color Correction Control surfaces have had a good showing the last 2 years. Nucuda will have a new one at IBC. mappable well lit and they say it will have Iphone type touch screen panels. Touch panel will replace need for mouse or pen. They had a Swedish UI team help design it. i went to the User group on the floor Quantel had Neo last year. Baselight has a great surface I don't remember how old it is last year maybe da Vinci’s Impresario is looked very nice and works with the 2k. Could not find a good picture of the Impresario but it was impressive. http://blog.digitalcontentproducer.com/briefingroom/2009/04/14/da-vincis-impresario%E2%84%A2-goes-global-with-worldwide-sales/ NAB had a ton of new monitors. That will start some debate. My favorite was the 3D technology demo of a upcoming Sony stereo monitor they had a 42" and 24" no price point set. But the angle of view was much more forgivable than the Hyundai stereo circular polarized model. Both use Real D passive glasses. I favor those over active glasses monitors. Even though I bought a Samsung I have not used in 3D yet. No content with active glasses yet. My co-worked "Phil Captain 3D" McNally provided a link that shows the explosion of small 3D rigs at the show. http://www.scottressler.com/BLMP/BLMP_Blog/Entries/2009/4/25_NAB_3D_2009_part_1.html God help us if your don't set up a 3D rig right and monitor on set properly. For real big headaches. And a nice HD 12 to 20 cameras rig from All Mobile that shot the Miss Universe pageant in Vegas Sunday night. Disclaimer-Just attended the show and not working for a manufacturer. enjoy, Jeff Olm Digital Colorist Dreamworks Animation From rpunger at mac.com Mon Apr 27 19:50:44 2009 From: rpunger at mac.com (richard unger) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:50:44 -0400 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A image that looks more real.. mmm interesting question. I know after an evening at my favorite pub, quaffing down $2 pints. The next morning I notice more grain in the mirror while shaving. You know all kidding aside I like a little grain in a picture for the most part, so I just breathe on those DB"s of NR very easy. The tighter the image without a lot of NR feels more real to me. Enhancing grain for dramatic effects is just that an effect, and works great when needed. So for me looking through the frame I see grain, just like in my mirror tomorrow morning. Rick Unger DI/Color Ringside Creative 248-548-2500 main 313-401-1301 cell http://web.mac.com/rpunger On Apr 27, 2009, at 9:48 AM, Kevin Shaw wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > David Crosthwait supports the TIG. > ==== > > > Hi Rob >> I am not sure the importance of grain has diminished. As you >> probably know I >> favor a non linear color grading system, and any time we have film >> original >> material we discuss the merits of reducing or enhancing grain. >> Tools to do >> that are included in the system I use. >> >> What’s more significant is that I know of several projects shot on >> electronic >> cameras, where grain is added to make the image appear sharper >> (because of >> Dithering and all of the issues Mr Swinson explains so >> accurately). Since I >> also have excellent sharpening tools at my disposal the >> preference for grain >> is therefore a creative choice not a workaround. Linked to this >> is a request >> to interpolate fields (if present) and create frames, which as you >> say is in a >> way a related technique. >> >> I do agree that the increase in CG and computer games has >> influenced the >> perception of grain in the younger generation, but I think that >> makes it an >> even more useful tool at the colorists disposal. >> >> My question to the Tig would be does grain (or even noise in >> electronic >> cameras) make an image seem more real? >> Best >> Kevin >>>>> Trends in imaging processing of late have diminished the >>>>> importance of >>> film grain. >>> >>> Is this a fad, or a permanent conversion of observer values? >>> >> >> Kevin Shaw freelance consultant colorist >> Member of the International Colorist Academy >> kevs at finalcolor.com www.finalcolor.com www.icolorist.com >> ---------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From dave at pixelfarm.com Mon Apr 27 20:24:43 2009 From: dave at pixelfarm.com (Dave Sweet) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:24:43 -0500 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seems to me that this is a subjective issue and maybe us film-purists need to make occasional concessions to. A while back I was jumping between two non-linear rooms (an unusually busy day) with one room working on a film-based project while, in the other room, I was working on some HD video material. Of course the client with the video wanted grain added while the film client wanted desperately to get rid of the grain! Dave Sweet Colorist Pixel Farm, Inc 251 1st Ave N suite 600 Minneapolis, MN 55401 tel: 612-339-7644 From ken at flight4.org Mon Apr 27 20:20:47 2009 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:20:47 -0300 Subject: [Tig] NAB musings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b201c9c76d$465889a0$6700a8c0@flight4> And just in case no on understood Bob: shill [ shil ] noun (plural shills) Definition: 1. pretended customer or gambler: an accomplice who pretends to be an interested customer or gambler in order to lure others into buying or gambling 2. self-interested promoter: somebody who promotes somebody else or makes a sales pitch for something for reasons of self-interest verb (past and past participle shilled, present participle shill.ing, 3rd person present singular shills) Definition: 1. intransitive verb be shill: to be or work as a shill 2. transitive verb promote somebody or something as shill: to promote somebody or make a sales pitch for something using the tactics of a shill ken robinson From jpo at prestodigital.ca Mon Apr 27 21:11:31 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:11:31 -0600 Subject: [Tig] mappable interfaces In-Reply-To: <43298eae0904271151x7906db75n4c6b610562200a86@mail.gmail.com> References: <43298eae0904271151x7906db75n4c6b610562200a86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27-Apr-09, at 12:51 PM, Jeff Olm wrote: > Nucuda will have a new one at IBC. mappable well lit and they say it > will have Iphone type touch screen panels. > Touch panel will replace need for mouse or pen "Interesting" as Spock would say. Perhaps this would be an asset to the "mouse and pen" set. Are they going to map a "mouse" to the touch screen, or the traditional "ball and ring/knob" model? If the latter, it would mean the drag artists would have to re-learn their interface. In Apple COLOR, the vast majority of users (who generally do not own control panels) do their corrections using the "curves" presented on the UI, as dragging around the dot on the 3-way, one at a time, becomes too tedious and cumbersome. Of course, they sacrifice the option of having keyframed transitions when they do that... but... whatever floats yer boat. Apple have had a patent on the mapped touch screen panel for a long time now -- it actually occurred to me to do a mapped Ball/Knob interface similar to a Wacom tablet... but the idea was pooh-poohed since it would have no physical or inertial "feel". Myself, I want a virtual-reality 3D representation of the colourspace and image floating in front of me so that I can physically grab an element and move it to another place in a vectorspace. Color sculpting. Color Sculpturist (!?) Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From bob at bluescreen.com Mon Apr 27 21:32:15 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:32:15 -0700 Subject: [Tig] NAB musings In-Reply-To: <00b201c9c76d$465889a0$6700a8c0@flight4> References: <00b201c9c76d$465889a0$6700a8c0@flight4> Message-ID: >shill [ shil ] >noun (plural shills) >Definition: >2. self-interested promoter: somebody who promotes somebody else or makes a >sales pitch for something for reasons of self-interest Yep. I appear in one of their ads for their FS1 frame sync not only because I bought the product and like it, but also because I have an ego as big as all outdoors and enjoy seeing myself in a 4 color full page ad. Plus, even though my parents STILL have no idea what it is I do for a living, seeing me featured in a national ad campaign at least gives them hope I'm doing SOMETHING. There isn't a person on this list or a person in the biz, even peripherally, who hasn't shilled, based on the above definition. All those "synergistic relationships" between people and between companies one reads about are based on exactly that - I'll do something for you, if you'll do something for me. The world has ever been based on self-interest. I'm just a bit more straightforward about it than many. And for those of you who can't wait one more second to see the ad: http://www.bluescreen.com/pix/aja_fs1_ad.pdf I try to be cynical, it's just so damned hard to keep up. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From doctorossi at yahoo.com Mon Apr 27 21:57:58 2009 From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <308235.15123.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > Seems to me that this is a subjective issue and maybe us > film-purists need to make occasional concessions to. > A while back I was jumping between two non-linear rooms (an > unusually busy day) with one room working on a film-based > project while, in the other room, I was working on some HD > video material. > Of course the client with the video wanted grain added > while the film client wanted desperately to get rid of the > grain! So, how'd the installation of the Intra-Suite Grain Tube(tm) go? Schuyler Dunn From dario.brambilla at cintelitaly.it Tue Apr 28 08:33:08 2009 From: dario.brambilla at cintelitaly.it (Dario Brambilla) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:33:08 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Wanted URSA Turn key Message-ID: Hi We as Cintel Italy, could be in position to provide a complete System. Let us knows your details requairments. Thanks Dario Brambilla Skomina Cintel S.r.l. Via Capranica 16 Milano Italy Tel + 39 02 2666420 Fax+ 39 02 2666580 dario.brambilla at cintelitaly.it From Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk Tue Apr 28 08:09:07 2009 From: Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk (Laurence Claydon) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:09:07 +0100 Subject: [Tig] NAB musings Message-ID: Bob Kertesz wrote: --Plus, even though my parents STILL have no idea what it is I do for a living, seeing me featured in a national ad campaign at least gives them hope I'm doing SOMETHING. I find also, that after many years, my parents also have no idea what I do...although thinking about it, my father worked for IBM for over 30 years and I never really got to the root of the issue. Occasionally, I would ask, 'Dad, what did you do at work today'? His response; 'As little as possible'. Maybe that's why they all got canned in the late 1980's :-) Laurence Claydon Deluxe Digital, London ----- Original Message ----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org To: tig at colorist.org Sent: Mon Apr 27 21:32:15 2009 Subject: Re: [Tig] NAB musings Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 David Crosthwait supports the TIG. ==== >shill [ shil ] >noun (plural shills) >Definition: >2. self-interested promoter: somebody who promotes somebody else or makes a >sales pitch for something for reasons of self-interest Yep. I appear in one of their ads for their FS1 frame sync not only because I bought the product and like it, but also because I have an ego as big as all outdoors and enjoy seeing myself in a 4 color full page ad. Plus, even though my parents STILL have no idea what it is I do for a living, seeing me featured in a national ad campaign at least gives them hope I'm doing SOMETHING. There isn't a person on this list or a person in the biz, even peripherally, who hasn't shilled, based on the above definition. All those "synergistic relationships" between people and between companies one reads about are based on exactly that - I'll do something for you, if you'll do something for me. The world has ever been based on self-interest. I'm just a bit more straightforward about it than many. And for those of you who can't wait one more second to see the ad: http://www.bluescreen.com/pix/aja_fs1_ad.pdf I try to be cynical, it's just so damned hard to keep up. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From adrian at autotv.co.uk Tue Apr 28 10:58:22 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:58:22 +0100 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't find grain offensive (DNR is usually worse), but I only think it's appropriate with obviously low-light scenes ie where your eyes would show significantly more noise. Using grain as 'shorthand' is as bad as all the other feeble clichés that are used to instruct the viewer - vignettes, sepia, 'super 8', monochrome, 'camcorder', absurdly heavy grades etc etc etc Incidentally, watching the fantastic "Alan Whicker's Journey of a Lifetime" has been as much a journey through the history of signal to noise ratio as anything else. Highly recommended viewing. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Tue Apr 28 09:38:42 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:38:42 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> >> If this stuff gets out >> into the wild, 3D will die a miserable death once again, probably to >> rise like a phoenix in a decade or so. >> I have been having a quick look for a note I wrote on this ages ago when I worked at Canon. I don't seem to have it any more, so this is from memory... Whenever there is a new imaging technology, someone almost immediately suggests a 3D technology. When Whetstone invented the stereoscope in about 1834, he first used hand-drawn geometric figures. Then he got onto his friend Fox Talbot, and they were probably producing 3D images 6 months after photography arrived in the UK. There were 3D technologies within months of the first large sheets of Polaroid plastic, anaglyph films within months of the first practical color film stocks, and so forth. However, the main cycle time seems to be about 20 years. This is about the expiry time for a patent, though I don't think that was originally the dominant mechanism. Probably it is about the time people remember their mistakes. Anyway, we have... - In the late 1990's there was a flourish of 3D technologies, mostly based on the old lenticular arrays (Nimslo), or switchable glasses - In the late 1970's, early 1980's there were 3D polarizing lenses for 35mm cameras and slide projectors. - In the late 1950's there were 3D cameras, films using polarizing glasses, and a polarizing print stock - In the mid 1930's there were anaglyph films using early color film stocks - About 1917 there should have been something, but World War One seems to have grabbed the headlines - About 1890 there were stereo "What the butler saw" flip-book 3D viewers - About 1870 there were the early anaglyph prints when you first could do long-run prints of photos Before that there is a sort of double-peak. Queen Victoria was given a Ducoq and Lesne stereograph that showed 3D slides at the Grfeat Exhibition and started a major fad for these things. In the US, the Holmes stereograph (a simpler mechanism) allowed you to view mass-produced prints. There are famous collections of the US civil war in 3D. Anyway, fads moved slower in them days, so the regular cycle is harder to graph. None of these technologies have been popular. Parallax is only one of our depth stimuli - we also use overlapping (this usually dominates, which makes the edge of 3D images upsetting), vergence, focus, and our memories for what size things ought to be. We don't mind people in films having heads ten feet tall on the screen because we accept the flattened image. If, however, you expect the image to have 3D truth, then the size no longer fits the focus or the vergence, and we get headaches and nausea. The other reason 3D does not catch on was settled early in the game. Originally, if you wanted to take a 3D photo, you had a plate camera, and you took one image with your weight on the right foot, and another with your weight on the left. This tended to move the camera by about 6 cm, which happened to be the intra-ocular distance. The emulsions were slow, and the old bullseye lenses were aberrated if your field of view was too large, so taking two small pictures of your subject was almost as easy as taking one. Then the early right rectilinear lenses meant you could get a decent, wide field of view, which was too wide to fit in your stereograph. People liked 3D but they were quick to trade it for a wider image. 3D films were also beaten by Panorama, Cinerama, Harerama Ramarama, etc. If you have twice as many pixels, there are more fun things you can do with them. By about 2035, the costs of memory and processing will have fallen, so the extra cost of processing a set of images should fall too. You would have a good camera to give the RGB image, and might use a loosely coupled set of other cameras to grab the depth information, and other things like HDR data and lighting maps, to help in post. It will seem easy to add 3D again - perhaps with a single-channel depth signal to allow the display to warp the image in real time. It will be back as surely as the vampire that dies at the end of the first reel. However, in some ways we do seem to be getting better at this. Every 20 years, the trip from the lab bench to the trash can gets faster and shorter. Heigh-ho.. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Tue Apr 28 10:03:43 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:03:43 +0100 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F6C66F.5050804@filmlight.ltd.uk> Bob Friesenhahn sez... > In my opinion, the continual search for additional sharpness and > contrast produces images which are uncomfortable for the viewer. I > was in a store yesterday which had maybe 50 different LCD and Plasma > displays going at once displaying the same HD "nature" footage. This > "nature" footage did not look at all natural on any of the displays. > We may be conflating two different things here. Film and film grain has a MTF that rolls off but it has no inherent sampling frequency. CRT displays had a frequency roll-off along the line, and the spot was usually jigged to give a matching softness in the other direction. Modern displays have one device per pixel that gives us a little sharp-edged square with its own RGB values, and a sharp Nyquist limit, with nasty jaggies if we sample things incorrectly. This can make images look sharper on modern displays if they are sampled correctly, but images that were made to look right on a CRT can look 'jaggy'. Weirdly, printing technology went through this in the 1980's. The old analogue screening processes were replaced by digital processes. Some digital processes (Crosfield) produced beautiful smooth-edged exposures that looked like the old exposures. Others (Hell) produced digital sharp-edged 'space invaders' dots, which the purists hated, but the ordinary people thought 'looked sharper'. Same effect, more or less. People have considered adding artificial noise to images to make them look sharper. I think the BBC had a paper about 1980 on this - sprinkling noise on the edge regions in an image to make it look sharper. It is a technique I have used for still images grabbed from screens. Our eyes do seem to need a spatial high-frequency signal to 'see' a sharp edge, but they are not too fussy as to the phase or orientation of the high frequency (which makes sense because we cannot coordinate our eyes precisely enough to get them exactly pointing in the same direction). So a bit of high-frequency noise will add a bit of 'sparkle' to an image, which can get interpreted as resolution if we don't overdo it. Once we have added this noise, then we cannot resize the image or we will get aliasing. The ideal image would have all the contrast and resolution of the original, and it would be like looking out of a window. This is an insane requirement, but I do remember the '8K' live video link from London to IBC last year that had enough resolution that you could stare at the tiny figures on the other side of the river a lot like a real view, which made the lack of contrast feel very strange. So maybe we aren't that far away after all. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From jpo at prestodigital.ca Tue Apr 28 16:05:55 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:05:55 -0600 Subject: [Tig] mappable interfaces In-Reply-To: References: <43298eae0904271151x7906db75n4c6b610562200a86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C1571B3-C129-4CE5-8586-03D43F288E71@prestodigital.ca> On 27-Apr-09, at 6:07 PM, Steve Hullfish wrote: > How much have you played with Color? >> Not much ;-P, but I have used it continuously for nearly 4 years now since it was Silicon Color Final Touch 2.5 ( a 2K license), finishing several International releases, commercials, music videos, shorts, and documentaries, but not very many wedding videos. Its a gap in my personal prospectus, so... no, I don't "play" with it very much at all. Obviously, tongue in cheek, you won't get any arguments from me about its "professional" qualities, because my whole business is built around it -- and although many people talk about the value of the colorist in relationship to the tool they use, I appear to be at least a functioning example of someone who also walks the walk. And just you wait until June.... That "spinning top" thing you mention is really rather annoying to me, especially after becoming extremely fond of the Tektronix "double diamond" display, which would be far more valuable, but unfortunately patented -- so maybe what's in the Apple scopes is the closest we'll get in an internal sub-sampled software model imbedded in the software. Otherwise I use a full-up Harris TVM for measurement, with which comes a gamut-error warning system. You'd be surprised what "gets past" the "legalizers" -- and that represents value for me. And although its a bit more work, I would really rather fix those over- and undershoots myself, rather than letting some algorithm chain-saw my values. The secondaries "capture cage" in the 3D representation also doesn't really indicate how clean the matte might be, which only your eyes can judge -- and I guess that's what the argument always devolves back to. Eventually the whole exercise is for trying to fool the Mk I Human Eyeball, for which there don't seem to be any updates, hardware or software, and nothing available as a substitute, either. If there's a point to any of this...? Tools and interfaces are only the instruments, not the goal. I'd use the Crayola 8-pack if I had to, stranded on a desert island with 6 other castaways. Mary Ann.... what I would give for one of her coconut cream pies.... Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Tue Apr 28 16:07:42 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:07:42 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <8543F902-5A23-4AC0-8A45-7A640B643322@colorist.org> On Apr 28, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Richard Kirk wrote: > move the camera by about 6 cm, which happened to be the intra- > ocular distance. The emulsions were slow, and the old bullseye > lenses were aberrated if your field of view was too large, so taking > two small pictures of your subject was almost as easy as taking one. > Then the early right rectilinear lenses meant you could get a > decent, wide field of view, which was too wide to fit in your > stereograph. People liked 3D but they were quick to trade it for a > wider image. 3D films were also beaten by Panorama, Cinerama, > Harerama Ramarama, etc. If you have twice as many pixels, there are > more fun things you can do with them. one of the reasons I enjoy using binoculars with lots of distance between the objectives is the really nice 3D effect you get, particularly when enjoying people-and-apartment watching from the balcony, when not bird-watching. see this photo for my favorite pair of binox: http://www.colorist.org/images/temp/binox.jpg The intra-ocular distance varies considerably with humans, so most binoculars will adjust for this. As a lot of 3D technology assumes a fixed intra-ocular distance, could this be part of what causes headaches? For many years I've wanted to have en-suite pairs of binocular glasses for the clients. that is if I couldn't provide an identical second monitor in the room, and they didn't mind magnification such that they'd be looking inside their colleague's noses. a very informative explanation Richard. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Apr 28 19:13:26 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:13:26 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> >>> If this stuff gets out into the wild, 3D will die a miserable death once again, probably to >>> rise like a phoenix in a decade or so. >None of these technologies have been popular. Parallax is only one of >our depth stimuli - we also use overlapping (this usually dominates, >which makes the edge of 3D images upsetting), vergence, focus, and our >memories for what size things ought to be. We don't mind people in films >having heads ten feet tall on the screen because we accept the flattened >image. If, however, you expect the image to have 3D truth, then the size >no longer fits the focus or the vergence, and we get headaches and nausea. I cannot tell you the number of civilians who simply state that they will get interested just as soon as the requirement for the glasses is gone. I heard that over and over at the NAB. Without civilian interest, especially in the home viewing part of the dance, the likelyhood of rapid widespread adoption of 3D is extremely slim, theaters or not. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Apr 28 21:49:28 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:49:28 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> Message-ID: <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:13 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > I cannot tell you the number of civilians who simply state that they > will get > interested just as soon as the requirement for the glasses is gone. > I heard > that over and over at the NAB. Bob, what is your definition of civilians? for example I'm a US government licensee and holder of a minor clearance. am I a civilian? (in the US) maybe a better term would be the general public, or the great unwashed, or via Tocqueville: the mob. Those who elect those who appeal to the 51% majority, who are usually ignorant? :) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Apr 29 00:23:21 2009 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:23:21 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> Message-ID: <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> >> I cannot tell you the number of civilians who simply state that they >> will get interested just as soon as the requirement for the glasses is gone. >> I heard that over and over at the NAB. >Bob, what is your definition of civilians? By "civilians", I meant those who are not in the business of production or post, and don't have a financial interest in the success or failure of 3D. You know, normal, sane people :-). The comment about the glasses could be overheard at many of the booths with 3D equipment (and there were many booths with 3D stuff). Personally, I'd be interested in some sort of holographic projection for home 3D, where there is a largish TV set with a "cyc-like" sweep extending about 3-4 feet in front of it and holo projectors in its four corners, projecting onto the "stage" in front of the set, and the set has background images for the stage show. Scale up by a factor of 10 or so for a theater. I know the technology barely exists now, but I'm guessing the heads-up display on the new F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter is not so far removed from what I've described, which means it may dribble down to us in 5-10 years. And no glasses required :-). --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 29 02:19:16 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:19:16 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2009, at 2:23 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > Personally, I'd be interested in some sort of holographic projection > for home > 3D, where there is a largish TV set with a "cyc-like" and I, with my 2.5 inch Watchman using homebrew D/A and miniature Ac/Dc converter, will be investing the change in my stepdaughters' college, if they ever figure out what they want to do. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From cml at iridas.com Wed Apr 29 08:57:53 2009 From: cml at iridas.com (Lin Sebastian Kayser) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:57:53 +0200 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> Message-ID: <007901c9c8a0$340c3e70$9c24bb50$@com> >I cannot tell you the number of civilians who simply state that they >will get interested just as soon as the requirement for the glasses is gone. Quite interesting. I talked to a good number of "real people" who have no connection to our business (fathers and mothers of classmates of my kids for example). Surprisingly, not a single one objected to the wearing of glasses. Some expressed concern about the waste the throw-away glasses generate (I am concerned about that as well). The majority of them commented on the positive experience and thought that this was the way all cinema would be in the near future. The people who were highly skeptical were all from our industry. I personally would be surprised if stereo were not mainstream in 5 years and I'd not be surprised if it were in 3. I bet quite a bit of money on that, so I hope I am right. Lin CEO, IRIDAS Makers of SpeedGrade, FrameCycler, MetaRender www.iridas.com From frank at opticalart.de Wed Apr 29 10:24:51 2009 From: frank at opticalart.de (Frank Hellmann) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:24:51 +0200 Subject: [Tig] FW: Film Grain. Possibly a momentous question. In-Reply-To: <49F6C66F.5050804@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <49F6C66F.5050804@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <49F81CE3.9040407@opticalart.de> Considering grain as an artistic tool to compose images, I am a bit at a loss about the talks going on in the broadcast industry to implement an overall noise-/grain-reduction before transmission to cut down 30% of the bandwidth. That combined with a bitrate of less than 10Mbit for an HD show sounds to me like a disaster, if it comes to a comparison of detail/grain of the original program to what is seen by the viewers. Also, delivery specs stating that S16mm film is not HD compatible and 35mm stocks over 250ASA are not to be used, seem a bit strange, if taken into account that these are valid artistic choices. But maybe this is just done to keep the cinemas alive... :) Best, Frank... -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OPTICAL ART Film & Special-Effects GmbH Waterloohain 6-8 Frank Hellmann DI Supervisor 22769 Hamburg frank at opticalart.de http://www.opticalart.de Tel: +49 40 5111051 Fax: +49 40 43169499 Sitz der Gesellschaft: Hamburg, Amtsgericht Hamburg HRB 384 70 Geschäftsführer: Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Niederlassung Berlin Skalitzer Straße 104 10997 Berlin Niederlassung Frankfurt Hanauer Landstraße 163-171 60314 Frankfurt Niederlassung Halle Mansfelderstrasse 56 06108 Halle ----------------------------------------------------------------------- OPTICAL ART Digital & Film GmbH Graf Adolf Str. 22 Frank Hellmann DI Supervisor 40212 Düsseldorf frank at opticalart.de http://www.opticalart.de Tel: +49 211 828590 Sitz der Gesellschaft: Düsseldorf, Amtsgericht Düsseldorf HRB 38 132 Geschäftsführer: Christian Burgdorff, Harald Lehmann ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jeff.olm at gmail.com Wed Apr 29 05:16:17 2009 From: jeff.olm at gmail.com (Jeff Olm) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:16:17 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> Message-ID: <43298eae0904282116k3c10ac6cx1cd9fe4290e12a5b@mail.gmail.com> Rob and Bob After spending alot of time with Real D glasses on. They are not that big of a deal. People wear glasses all day long? I really don't know what to make of all the 3D rigs at NAB but we will see what they can do in the right hands. Real D is by no means ideal. But more comfortable than paper or active glasses. It's the best we have for now. I think your wrong to say it's a show stopper. MvA is it's 6th week and just did $8.5 this weekend I'm riding the wave and working on my 4th and 5th stereo feature. The trains on the tracks, Up is next for Pixar. I'm looking forward to it. best, Jeff Olm Stereo Colorist Dreamworks Animation From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu Wed Apr 29 03:55:03 2009 From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 22:55:03 -0400 Subject: [Tig] 3d In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't like 3d because most of the time we get too much projection and not enough depth which creates a huge disconnect between what we expect to see and what we are presented with. There is something hugely disconcerting about objects simultaneously protruding in front of the screen yet cut off at its edge. The enhanced 3d effect of binoculars is exactly the opposite of what we need if the viewing area is nonimmersive. ---Larry From shukkra at yahoo.in Wed Apr 29 11:20:34 2009 From: shukkra at yahoo.in (Mr Shukkra) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:50:34 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Tig] RTC problem in the DUI 888 davinci system Message-ID: <198422.62831.qm@web95316.mail.in2.yahoo.com>   Hello   Anybody have the experience with the RTC problem happening in the 888 DUI davinci system?  It showing RED color RTC then telecine control is going off. For solve temproveryly i have to hit the NMI and the DEADMAN reset switches.   If anyone solved this problem permenently please guide to me.     Thanks & regards   Shukkran Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox From weagles at bigpond.net.au Wed Apr 29 05:17:17 2009 From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (warren eagles) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:17:17 +1000 Subject: [Tig] mappable interfaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/04/2009, at 11:19 AM, Joe Owens wrote: > And > just you wait until June.... Sorry did I miss something what is happening in June? Cheers Warren Eagles From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 29 12:14:15 2009 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (jeff.booth at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 12:14:15 +0100 Subject: [Tig] 3D HD on tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090429121415.Y0NTQ.664250.root@web03-winn.ispmail.private.ntl.com> Hi, I've just had delivered for TX an Anaglyph (Red/Cyan offset image) 3D movie. Are there 'REC 709' glasses available? What is the general view on this? Jeff From mfw at musictrax.com Wed Apr 29 17:16:34 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:16:34 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <007901c9c8a0$340c3e70$9c24bb50$@com> Message-ID: On 4/29/09 12:57 AM, "Lin Sebastian Kayser" wrote: > Surprisingly, not a single one objected to the wearing of glasses. Some > expressed concern about the waste the throw-away glasses generate (I am > concerned about that as well). >------------------------------------------------------------< All of the recent 3D screenings I've seen so far in the U.S. use well-built, non-throwaway glasses. The glasses are handed out as you enter the theater, and after the film ends, the audience members drop the glasses in a large box as they leave the theater. The glasses are (theoretically) cleaned and reused for later screenings. Note that they're charging about 30-40% more for 3D tickets than regular tickets. I believe both JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH and Disney's BOLT were north of $14 at theaters in LA. I'm sure that's more than enough to cover the extra cost of the glasses, the mastering, the extra camera(s) for production, and so on. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 29 17:23:18 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:23:18 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Marc Wielage wrote: > All of the recent 3D screenings I've seen so far in the U.S. use > well-built, > non-throwaway glasses. I must confess I've never seen a 3D film. what's it like, and do you prefer it to 2D? Are we ever going to see a thoughtful, artistic film done in 3D or is the medium only suited for action films? Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Wed Apr 29 17:56:36 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:56:36 -0600 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I must confess I've never seen a 3D film. what's it like, and do > you prefer it to > 2D? Are we ever going to see a thoughtful, artistic film done in > 3D or is the > medium only suited for action films? > > Rob > Its like going to Benihana every once in a while. Watching those guys throw around the knives and play tunes with the salt& pepper shakers... vastly entertaining and the food is okay, too. If you like that sort of thing. I got into 3D gaming for awhile when nVidia got really going with it -- my pilotage and scores went way up. Lap times came down... spare time went into a black hole. It was somewhat more fatiguing since the gameplay became quite a bit more intense, and of course posture became a real problem to keep the glasses in the right place. Eventually, though the novelty wore off and I'm almost a rehabilitated, partially functioning citizen once more. Thoughtful, artistic film? My experience with the gameplay is that the dogfighting games weren't all that enhanced -- usually the targets are too far away to make any difference, especially against sky... so maybe the technique is better suited for images that have lots of objects in carefully arranged layers, and action movies are all over that. The 3D at the end of the last Harry Potter was quite distracting and pointless, I'm afraid -- but that was just my emotional reaction in the moment. I loved Monsters vs Aliens -- nice work Jeff, saw the name in the creds. Interesting phenomenon, though, with MvsA: depth of field. I can only imagine what kind of discussions would have gone around that. Don't expect much "racking" in 3D films, I think. Oh, and mediums for 3D... One word, Rob... and that is "porn". Ewwwww.... I can't believe how revolted I actually am just sitting here....NOT trying to think much more about it.... Okay, then... Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From mfw at musictrax.com Wed Apr 29 18:14:42 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:14:42 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/29/09 9:23 AM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > I must confess I've never seen a 3D film. what's it like, and do you > prefer it to 2D? >------------------------------------------------------------< My opinion only: all of the recent digital 3D films I've seen so far have had blacks up to about 20 ire (horrible), looked very "thin," low-contrast, and had weird, unnatural color. The 3D effects were impressive and worked a lot better than what I'd seen in old 35mm polarized films, but overall detail was soft. Maybe I just had bad luck at the screenings -- but this was with two different films and two major LA theaters. To me, the biggest issue is that so much light is lost in the glasses, it winds up having a drastic compromise on image quality. (And I could see that if you look at the screen without glasses, the image looks like it's at 100fL -- insanely bright.) I'm optimistic that these issues can eventually be solved. But I'm not convinced that 3D will ever prove to be anything more than just a gimmick. To me, it's just a repeat of the 3D wave of the 1970s and 1950s. Bad movies in 3D are still bad, and I'm not sure that audiences will be willing to spend $4 more just to see a movie in 3D -- even if it's a terrific blockbuster. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From owen at ywwg.com Wed Apr 29 18:47:08 2009 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:47:08 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1241027228.19822.687.camel@ywwg> On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 19:23 +0300, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I must confess I've never seen a 3D film. what's it like, and do you > prefer it to > 2D? Are we ever going to see a thoughtful, artistic film done in 3D > or is the > medium only suited for action films? The stop-motion film Coraline is probably the best argument for non-actiony 3D that exists right now. Most of the 3D goes into the screen, not out of it, and it's used with great restraint. There's a poke-in-the-eye in the opening credits, but that's the only gag like that. The filmmakers, in interviews, seemed to consider the addition of 3D very carefully and tried to use it well. For instance, The director talks about his "Wizard of Oz" moment when the main character enters the alternate universe -- the 3d effect becomes slightly more exaggerated in that world. Owen From rob at cinelab.com Wed Apr 29 18:54:13 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:54:13 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My opinion only: all of the recent digital 3D films I've seen so > far have > had blacks up to about 20 ire (horrible), looked very "thin," low- > contrast, > and had weird, unnatural color. I recently saw "Bolt" and "Coraline" in 3D and I felt that bolt looked better but also that the 3D added nothing to the "film" really nothing at all. Coraline looked worse in terms of color, sharpness and contrast I felt. I also took the glasses off for a minute and what was revealed was obviously wretched. Also it seemed that almost half the people at the theatre threw the 3D glasses into the waste basket at the exit and not into the special 3D glasses bucket. We paid $13 for the 3D shows I own a fairly nice DLP projector for my house I cannot say that the D-Cine projectors look much better that what I have at home. Film prints do but I guess they will become passé in favor of something substantially worse. Rob " Curmuddgeon who thinks everything Jim Cameron has ever done has a big fat coat of cheap and cheezy all over it" Houllahan Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 29 18:53:58 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:53:58 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16A89697-BFC7-4E9F-9F45-D7CAF47BE67D@colorist.org> On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Oh, and mediums for 3D... One word, Rob... and that is "porn". > Ewwwww.... I can't believe how revolted I actually am just sitting > here....NOT trying to think much more about it.... Okay, then... straying a bit far from the topics at hand, I think a lot of research is going into electropneumatics, as applied to wide-bandwidth connections and interaction. Just takes a bunch of sensors and the right plumbing. move to Europe and you get a series of actual functioning societies where porn really isn't much of anything special. forgive the digression, thanks. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From lee.turvey at quantel.com Wed Apr 29 20:13:05 2009 From: lee.turvey at quantel.com (lee.turvey at quantel.com) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:13:05 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <16A89697-BFC7-4E9F-9F45-D7CAF47BE67D@colorist.org> Message-ID: I've been lucky enough to see some astoundingly good 3Dstereo. Naturally it's not going to be right for all environs but sports is huge opportunity. Growing up in England I can see people easily paying a premium to watch soccer in the pubs in 3D - glasses or no glasses. Digital signage and gaming are other areas I'd expect to see strong growth plus with 'glasses free' screens available for the iphone (see spatial view) maybe there's good potential for viral type web marketing. Oh, and the aforementioned 'Adult entertainment sector' of course. Lee Turvey District Sales Manager Quantel Inc. New York Office lee.turvey at quantel.com cell - 213 926 5598 From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 29 22:40:59 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:40:59 +0300 Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs. Message-ID: <3C920831-87AA-4D58-8F67-112D44BE2F7A@colorist.org> as I watch legendary films and those that were created before digital fade-outs and fade-ins, I am sensitive to the fact that with older films/series, fade-ins and outs follow a certain non- linear ramp, in that the blacks and whites follow a certain fall-off that seems organic, in lieue of another term when I watch a fade-out and fade-in created by , for example Final Cut, there is a certain complete value reduction such that the fade (IN OR OUT) looks completely digital, and takes essentially a flat image and reduces the values in a completely linear fashion. To me it looks pretty bad. Open for comments. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Wed Apr 29 22:53:42 2009 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:53:42 -0600 Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs. In-Reply-To: <3C920831-87AA-4D58-8F67-112D44BE2F7A@colorist.org> References: <3C920831-87AA-4D58-8F67-112D44BE2F7A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <9130C7F0-9E9E-457A-9599-31A834204401@prestodigital.ca> > > when I watch a fade-out and fade-in created by , for example Final > Cut, there is a certain complete > value reduction such that the fade (IN OR OUT) looks completely > digital, and takes essentially a > flat image and reduces the values in a completely linear fashion. > To me it looks pretty bad That's why there is the Nattress bag of tricks and film effects plugins. What I don't miss (at least in vintage films) is the big bump at the start and end of the dissolve where the optical was cut in. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From Neil.Feldman at In-Three.com Wed Apr 29 22:46:07 2009 From: Neil.Feldman at In-Three.com (Neil B. Feldman) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:46:07 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> Message-ID: I have been reluctant to say anything on this subject for obvious reasons (I own In-Three). However, I think some of you are missing the key point. The "new" 3D is not about being a gimmick at all. It is simply about being what I call "surround sound for your eyes". In the same way that we prefer to attend a movie in Surround Sound vs. stereo, it is my firm belief that most people will prefer to see a good story (story always comes first!) in stereo 3D. Because it can and will draw you in all the more - if it is done right. It is not about it "being in 3D and coming at ya." We all prefer to see the world in 3 dimensions - and many of us do not find wearing glasses a problem. But yes, a small portion (maybe 10%) of the population can either not see in stereo 3D or are overly sensitive to watching it on the big screen. I guess we have a lot of those 10-percenters on this very board. -Neil Neil B. Feldman In-Three, Inc. 4580 E. Thousand Oaks Blvd. Westlake Village, CA. 91362 805-413-7575 ph 805-413-7561 fx http://www.In-Three.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Apr 29 23:20:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 01:20:03 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> Message-ID: HI Neil if you can direct me to films that are worthwhile, in my humble opinion- films on the level of Casablanca, Shawshank Redemption, A Bronx Tale, etc. that use 3d to advantage over 2d, then I'll be interested. :) regards Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adrian at autotv.co.uk Thu Apr 30 00:33:33 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:33:33 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk> <6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com> <968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org> <333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2009, at 22:46, Neil B. Feldman wrote: > > The "new" 3D is not about being a gimmick at all. It is simply > about being what I call "surround sound for your eyes". In the > same way that we prefer to attend a movie in Surround Sound vs. > stereo, But, surely, surround sound's a gimmick too? It's pretty much a post production special effect and you lose almost nothing if you watch in decent stereo. Sure, I have a surround sound sound set-up at home because I can't abide some of the clumsy stereo mixdown artifacts, but I'd rather have glorious stereo... and 4:3 (HD, naturally) if you're asking. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From doctorossi at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 00:38:08 2009 From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447512.39963.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > if you can direct me to films that are worthwhile, in my > humble opinion- films on the level of Casablanca, > Shawshank Redemption, A Bronx Tale, etc. that use 3d to > advantage over 2d, then I'll be interested. :) Start with Coraline. Proceed to Up. Continue with Toy Story, Toy Story 2 and, in all likelihood, Toy Story 3. Schuyler Dunn From irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au Thu Apr 30 00:23:48 2009 From: irichardson at cuttingedge.com.au (Ian Richardson) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:23:48 +1000 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: <49F6C092.9040006@filmlight.ltd.uk><6jhev4lssou9093m064h0j4lguvojcqpue@4ax.com><968229A9-B665-414E-BCCF-592AEEC152F2@colorist.org><333fv4l8av72g062an5167khd1cvfd7qdg@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3F5E20D66164884C893C00EF95161925AE8C87@syd-exchange1.ce-bne.cuttingedge> Greetings Tiggers I have yet to sit thru a full length 3D film However I have sat thru a few '3D equipment demos/presentations' In all the demos I never noticed a scene transition that was not a 'cut' I mentioned this a few times to the presenters. Usually resulting in silence, see me after the demo, this was all that was supplied to us.... My question is, to those whom have viewed full 3D features, Is there any 'effects' transitions used [dissolves, zooms, wipes] used other than the good old 'cut'? If so what was the impression Cheers Ian Richardson Cutting Edge Engineering Sydney Oz http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Thu Apr 30 09:12:47 2009 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:12:47 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49F95D7F.7030300@filmlight.ltd.uk> Joe Owens raises a significant point that I had missed... > Oh, and mediums for 3D... One word, Rob... and that is "porn". > Ewwwww.... When I used to work with color printing, the people who really fussed over the image quality and pushed the standards for the glossy magazines were the soft porn-mongers and tobacco ads, and the tobacco ads are no longer with us. There is a cynical sort of sense behind it - for these people, the image is everything. Probably modern perfume ads are the new tobacco ads. Anyhow, home video editing, analogue home videos, color photographs, photography and printing, these were all were harnessed to the Great Cause. 1920's films had yer full-frontal nekkid a-plenty. In Victorian times the rich might have their "Psyche at her Bath" oi9l paintings ("Phwooar, er, I mean dashed cunning these painter chappies, eh, they really capture the light..."), 18th century experiments in several-color printing in Europe and Japan, Roman bronze cast lewd statues, and frescoes, Greek encaustic paintings and mosaics... Nasty as it may be, wherever imaging or other representational technologies were going, the Smut Brigade were always there, and often leading the way. But not 3D? Well- I think there was a 3D film called something like "Greta in Three Dimensions", once (I can't find it on a quick Google), but that is about the level of ASCII-art porn, 3D-render porn, and so forth - noble experiments, cruelly cut short by the inventor going blind and mad: nothing that really advances the imaging technology. If the Smut Brigade won't touch it, then something is wrong... Well, there you have it: I am clearly a 3D curmudgeon. I am glad there are other people who aren't. Maybe, one day, it will be lovely, and the day that happens I will gladly eat my hat. We shall see. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 30 10:14:58 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:14:58 +0300 Subject: [Tig] some new information on the TIG wiki Message-ID: there are a few new Classified ads, Commercial Announcements, and Calendar Events on the TIG wiki. If anyone finds that a classified ad is out of date or unneeded, please advise me, it's almost a full time job to track down all the postings and confirm the currency of these ads. I used to expire them after a month but then received many complaints about their removal. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 rob at colorist.org From sean at screentimeimages.com Thu Apr 30 10:56:36 2009 From: sean at screentimeimages.com (Sean McKee) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 04:56:36 -0500 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <49F95D7F.7030300@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: On 4/30/09 3:12 AM, "Richard Kirk" wrote: > If the Smut Brigade won't touch it, then something is wrong... > This makes sense as I've heard many people say that the increased detail HD brings for the porn industry is bad thing, as you can now see a pimple on a behind, which is not so flattering, requiring thicker makeup, soft filters or more work in post to hide imperfections. As for that industry going further into incorporating 3D, don't know how much more 'real' they'd want it, plus the added costs could be prohibitive for the low budgets that all but a few of the 'high-end smut peddlers' spend. Though the topic does lend itself to some bad porn/3D/film production puns, like "How much depth does your field have"? Thanks, Sean McKee Screen Time Images / Screen Time Entertainment 974 Estes Court Schaumburg, IL 60193 847-534-9000 office 847-534-0099 direct From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Thu Apr 30 11:00:31 2009 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:00:31 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5ED62385BC884847886E3E1E69B832AF@Sprocket> Come on guys, this whole industry is about pushing the boundries, making something new, better, experimenting ..different ...if you stand still, you go backwards ... Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 30 11:08:56 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:08:56 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <5ED62385BC884847886E3E1E69B832AF@Sprocket> References: <5ED62385BC884847886E3E1E69B832AF@Sprocket> Message-ID: <034E9413-CAA4-4C74-8767-3CACF29C5F57@colorist.org> On Apr 30, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Graham Collett wrote: > Come on guys, this whole industry is about pushing the boundries, > making > something new, better, experimenting ..different ...if you stand > still, you go backwards ... Or if you make something worse, you go even more backwards. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From adrian at autotv.co.uk Thu Apr 30 13:31:20 2009 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:31:20 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10A12DC7-AFAE-4683-B829-13BC2AFE2A17@autotv.co.uk> On 30 Apr 2009, at 10:56, Sean McKee wrote: > > > On 4/30/09 3:12 AM, "Richard Kirk" wrote: > >> If the Smut Brigade won't touch it, then something is wrong... >> > > This makes sense as I've heard many people say that the increased > detail HD > brings for the porn industry is bad thing, as you can now see a > pimple on a > behind, which is not so flattering, requiring thicker makeup, soft > filters > or more work in post to hide imperfections. I've heard this point of view expressed before and, though I've never seen any HD porn, surely the same rules apply that would to any other form of 'dramatic' production? You don't NEED to do an (E)CU if you have that extra detail available, you can lock the camera off more, use differential focus to better effect etc etc. Surely the problem with any HD production is the frequent requirement that the pictures be shot with SD down-size in mind so you're stuck with SD-style shots. I would have thought that porn producers would find the improved frame-grabbing potential of HD production to be worth the cost/effort all by itself. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION 35 BEDFORDBURY LONDON WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From alanr at bhphoto.com Thu Apr 30 14:55:20 2009 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:55:20 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <447512.39963.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1CB67EE7@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> If I may offer an opinion. I really think that 3D is going to take off when implemented in gaming. There are so many folks who will spend hours, even days at a time in immersive persistent world RPG games like World of Warcraft and Everquest (I must admit I was one several years ago) that 3D is a natural, especially now that so many folks have large screen LCD's that can display the imaging so well. This generation of people will grow to expect 3D imaging so it will be easier to sell the tv and theater concepts. I also think that holographic projection is what will save the movie theater industry when everything shakes out at the end. The absolute success of the Met Opera live HD broadcast to theaters venture opens the door for this. Lots of folks would spend $30 to $40 dollars a ticket to see a live broadcast 3D holographic of a Broadway show out in the hinterlands as well as filmed/video/digitally acquired recorded entertainment(can we still call it filmed entertainment when its shot on a Red or an F35?) Alan Rosenfeld The Studio at B&H From grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk Thu Apr 30 11:17:15 2009 From: grahamcollett at visible-sprockets.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:17:15 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <034E9413-CAA4-4C74-8767-3CACF29C5F57@colorist.org> Message-ID: That's negative .... No pun intended ... so if we just listen to the radio and do nothing more, we wont do anything wrong or bad. ... That's not in the human nature Graham Collett Visible Sprockets Ltd www.visible-sprockets.co.uk Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk On Apr 30, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Graham Collett wrote: > Come on guys, this whole industry is about pushing the boundries, > making > something new, better, experimenting ..different ...if you stand > still, you go backwards ... Or if you make something worse, you go even more backwards. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From mfw at musictrax.com Thu Apr 30 16:17:46 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:17:46 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/29/09 2:46 PM, "Neil B. Feldman" wrote: > But yes, a small portion (maybe 10%) > of the population can either not see in stereo 3D or are overly > sensitive to watching it on the big screen. >------------------------------------------------------------< Oh, I can see in 3D just fine, with or without glasses. My problem is the big difference in picture quality between a conventional 2D motion picture and a 3D release. When they can solve the 3D issues I see with contrast, color and sharpness, I'm all for it. The 3D is not the problem -- it's everything else. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From mfw at musictrax.com Thu Apr 30 16:23:09 2009 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:23:09 -0700 Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs. In-Reply-To: <3C920831-87AA-4D58-8F67-112D44BE2F7A@colorist.org> Message-ID: On 4/29/09 2:40 PM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > when I watch a fade-out and fade-in created by , for example Final > Cut, there is a certain complete > value reduction such that the fade (IN OR OUT) looks completely > digital, and takes essentially a > flat image and reduces the values in a completely linear fashion. To > me it looks pretty bad. >------------------------------------------------------------< At least six or seven years ago, editors have had the ability to choose S-curve fades or linear fades on Avid and Final Cut Pro systems. All the film D.I. projects I've worked on have specifically used S-curve fades and dissolves to mimic log/chemical fades in optical printers. If you can color time the elements separately on each side of the dissolve, the result is pretty much perfect in my experience, and doesn't look "digital" at all. As Joe comments elsewhere, at least nowadays we don't get the big cut-in optical notch before and after the dissolve. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From N.Feldman at videopost.com Thu Apr 30 17:23:00 2009 From: N.Feldman at videopost.com (Neil B. Feldman) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:23:00 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6837812C-A698-4CCB-9FEB-C5A7EDBE9233@videopost.com> On Apr 30, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Marc Wielage wrote: >> Oh, I can see in 3D just fine, with or without glasses. > > My problem is the big difference in picture quality between a > conventional > 2D motion picture and a 3D release. > > When they can solve the 3D issues I see with contrast, color and > sharpness, > I'm all for it. The 3D is not the problem -- it's everything else. You are referring to the fact that virtually all of the digital 3D display systems (RealD, Master Image, XpanD, and Dolby) only deliver through the overall system (to the eyes) around 4.5 fL white illumination. Even in cases where movies will be delivered on screens using the new RealD XL light-doubling system it seems probable that many exhibitors will opt to save bulb life and electricity costs rather than boost the overall light levels by very much even though they can. However, recent tests in Burbank would tend to suggest that acceptable 3D light levels will not have to match the recommended 14 fL for 2D material (DCI). Maybe just a boost to 8 - 10 fL will be OK. Regardless, I agree with you. These critical issues remain to be addressed and solved. But I believe they will be. In the meantime, the public has been voting - with its recession dollars - in favor of viewing the "new" 3D every time. And even with all these thorny technical issues 3D display in the theater and the home is destined only to improve. This is just the beginning. -Neil Neil B. Feldman In-Three, Inc. 4580 E. Thousand Oaks Blvd. Westlake Village, CA. 91362 805-413-7575 ph 805-413-7561 fx http://www.In-Three.com From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Thu Apr 30 14:12:31 2009 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:12:31 +0100 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle References: <5ED62385BC884847886E3E1E69B832AF@Sprocket> <034E9413-CAA4-4C74-8767-3CACF29C5F57@colorist.org> Message-ID: "Or if you make something worse, you go even more backwards. - Rob Lingelbach" I can't agree more. In my opinion I'm wondering whether there will be much of a 'film industry' left in the future when talking about fiction films. I kind of feel that the videogame entertainment side is taking away customers (so to speak) because of the similar demographic. I'm glad that Joe mentioned computer games earlier in reference to 3d. It does get me excited because it's putting us one step closer to decent and accessible VR (and whether VR is a good or bad thing obviously depends upon your angle, but I'm sure we'd all agree it's an exciting amalgamation of technologies). I'm perfectly happy with the way I view films, and with the variety of ways in which I can see material - on download, on tv, with a directors commentary off a dvd (and extras), in an independant cinema, 2k, 4k, IMAX, Ipod, mainstream cinemas.... Plus the extra hype (I never side with hype. Maybe I'm missing out?) and cost with 3d.... No thanks. I really DON'T care. I also whole-heartedly support Adrians opinion in that Surround Sound is much a gimmick. The spatial depth you can get from listening to a decent set of reference monitors in stereo is just awesome, and those consumer horrible amp/switcher surround sound unit boxes are frankly a nightmare and far too expensive. That's a 2pence worth. I guess I'm in that 10% too From rob at cinelab.com Thu Apr 30 14:34:00 2009 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:34:00 -0400 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <447512.39963.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <447512.39963.qm@web57703.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would not put "Coraline" into the catagory of an all time classic film. Sorry it was ok but it's not Seventh seal or Casablanca. I also think it would have been no different if it were shot on mitchells and shown in 2D. Rob Robert Houllahan Film www.Cinelab.com Sent by IpodPhone On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:38 PM, Schuyler Dunn wrote: > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 > David Crosthwait supports the TIG. > ==== > > > >> if you can direct me to films that are worthwhile, in my >> humble opinion- films on the level of Casablanca, >> Shawshank Redemption, A Bronx Tale, etc. that use 3d to >> advantage over 2d, then I'll be interested. :) > > Start with Coraline. Proceed to Up. Continue with Toy Story, Toy > Story 2 and, in all likelihood, Toy Story 3. > > Schuyler Dunn > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > From Stn3 at aol.com Thu Apr 30 16:25:57 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:25:57 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B97F7E08E9641339BA91B1180CD1E1B@DESKTOP> With out a doubt, the best 3D I have seen over the years is IMAX. Perhaps the most notable reason is the quality of the glasses. But there is another factor, IMAX film makers seem to resist lobbing things at the camera, and instead allow the natural depth of the scene to WOW the audience. I am sorry to admit, that I am old enough to remember the 3D classics from the 50s. Vincent Price in "House Of Wax" comes to mind. This system required two projectors in interlock to present the film. A pregnant pause was required at the half-way point to reload new reels of film. The real technical improvement as far as projection is concerned, was the placement of both images (left and right) on the same piece of film - one image on top of the other on the film. A special projector lens re-imposes the images with the proper spacing through polarizing filters to the screen. IMAX works the same way. The only way to present 3D on video is using red-and-green glasses. Any way you slice it, this method is problematic. The combination of red and green in each eye causes flashes and an all over orange glow to the feature. 3D using this method is not all that dramatic, and in my case, causes eye strain after about 20 minutes. Because of this, early films using this technique were shot in black and white. Most notable perhaps is "The Creature From The Black Lagoon". Remembered more for its Film Noir look rather than its employment of 3D, this film takes its place with all the other black and white horror film classics of the 1950s. Tom Nottingham -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:23 AM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. 2201 subscribers as of April 2009 David Crosthwait supports the TIG. ==== On Apr 29, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Marc Wielage wrote: I must confess I've never seen a 3D film. what's it like, and do you prefer it to 2D? Are we ever going to see a thoughtful, artistic film done in 3D or is the medium only suited for action films? Rob From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 30 17:40:03 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:40:03 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <10A12DC7-AFAE-4683-B829-13BC2AFE2A17@autotv.co.uk> References: <10A12DC7-AFAE-4683-B829-13BC2AFE2A17@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <1EC111DC-B537-4A35-9F1E-93E100D15FA3@colorist.org> On Apr 30, 2009, at 3:31 PM, Adrian Thomas wrote: > I would have thought that porn producers would find the improved > frame-grabbing potential of HD production to be worth the cost/ > effort all by itself. it's the grabbing of what protrudes from the human frame that makes it all worth while. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 30 18:22:34 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 20:22:34 +0300 Subject: [Tig] calling all photos from NAB Message-ID: <4A590384-8BAD-430A-9FD3-20D86569C583@colorist.org> looking to collect photos from NAB for a special section of the TIG wiki. send photos as attachments to me, and if they can be kept below 1MB that works best for me. Captions quite useful. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Apr 30 19:25:56 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:25:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1CB67EE7@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> References: <0B5EA34E1914B3459A2D5EF0C3444C6C1CB67EE7@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Alan Rosenfeld wrote: > > If I may offer an opinion. I really think that 3D is going to take > off when implemented in gaming. There are so many folks who will I agree with this. Video gaming is sure to push the 3D state of the art in the home and pave the way for 3D packaged material and broadcast delivery. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Apr 30 19:27:06 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:27:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <6837812C-A698-4CCB-9FEB-C5A7EDBE9233@videopost.com> References: <6837812C-A698-4CCB-9FEB-C5A7EDBE9233@videopost.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, Neil B. Feldman wrote: > > However, recent tests in Burbank would tend to suggest that acceptable 3D > light levels will not have to match the recommended 14 fL for 2D material > (DCI). Maybe just a boost to 8 - 10 fL will be OK. Do many theaters actually match the recommended 14 fL levels? Most likely the actual levels are less. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Apr 30 19:31:09 2009 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:31:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <0B97F7E08E9641339BA91B1180CD1E1B@DESKTOP> References: <0B97F7E08E9641339BA91B1180CD1E1B@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > > The only way to present 3D on video is using red-and-green glasses. Any way This is not totally true. Fast update technologies such as DLP are able to support other methods. Slow technologies like LCD and Plasma obviously have a problem. However, if 3D content becomes popular (surely propelled by video games) then TV technologies will need to adapt. Video gamers will notice any slow-down added by 3D. They already complain about the latencies in current TVs. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From doctorossi at yahoo.com Thu Apr 30 19:39:19 2009 From: doctorossi at yahoo.com (Schuyler Dunn) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <334409.64867.qm@web57702.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > I would not put "Coraline" into the catagory of > an all time classic film. Sorry it was ok but it's not > Seventh seal or Casablanca. Well, I wouldn't put A Bronx Tale or, especially, The Shawshank Redemption into that category, either. I liked Coraline more than both of those. > I also think it would have been no different if it were shot on > mitchells and shown in 2D. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you're saying you don't think it gains anything from the 3D aspect, I disagree with you completely. Have you seen it in 3D? Schuyler Dunn From lewis at lewissaunders.com Thu Apr 30 21:57:53 2009 From: lewis at lewissaunders.com (Lewis Saunders) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:57:53 +0100 Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marc Wielage wrote: > At least six or seven years ago, editors have had the ability to choose > S-curve fades or linear fades on Avid and Final Cut Pro systems. All the > film D.I. projects I've worked on have specifically used S-curve fades > and dissolves to mimic log/chemical fades in optical printers. Such a simple effect can go interestingly wrong - many TK'd films on DVD I've seen have odd colour shifts as white titles dissolve down. I assume that's introduced by the transfer since I don't recall projected titles doing that... does anyone know why that might happen? As for fades in offlines looking a bit flat, I wonder if that's because there's no headroom in the highlights - as soon as a bright overcast sky starts to fade down it'll go a nasty flat grey if it's video, whereas when working from film it would show additional highlight detail on the way down. Baselight for one has a myriad of options in its dissolve strip, for what colourspace is used to do the maths and simulations for an optical dissolve or an in-camera double exposure iris pull sort of dissolve. I'm not entirely sure how they work, though :) -- Lewis Saunders Compositor London From Stn3 at aol.com Thu Apr 30 19:45:39 2009 From: Stn3 at aol.com (S. T. Nottingham III) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:45:39 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: References: <0B97F7E08E9641339BA91B1180CD1E1B@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5BC837230B4E4C3D8BD304CC31F48DE8@DESKTOP> Employing DLP systems in a theatre environment may be useful for 3D, but any system for DVD or Blue-ray disc must be compatible with any delivery system found in the home. Perhaps I should have made that qualification known in my posting. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us] Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:31 AM To: S. T. Nottingham III Cc: 'Telecine Internet Group' Subject: Re: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle On Thu, 30 Apr 2009, S. T. Nottingham III wrote: > > The only way to present 3D on video is using red-and-green glasses. Any way This is not totally true. Fast update technologies such as DLP are able to support other methods. Slow technologies like LCD and Plasma obviously have a problem. However, if 3D content becomes popular (surely propelled by video games) then TV technologies will need to adapt. Video gamers will notice any slow-down added by 3D. They already complain about the latencies in current TVs. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com Thu Apr 30 23:16:42 2009 From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:16:42 -0700 Subject: [Tig] fade ins, fade outs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65F85@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> > Lewis Saunders wrote: > Such a simple effect can go interestingly wrong - many TK'd > films on DVD I've seen have odd colour shifts as white titles > dissolve down. I assume that's introduced by the transfer > since I don't recall projected titles doing that... does > anyone know why that might happen? In their infinite wisdom, studios cut opticals into the neg that were just the length of the optical rather than duping the whole scene and building the optical in. It did save allot of dupe footage but good luck at having the original neg color age at the same rate as the optical neg. This is really bad if the optical was done on reversal stock (CRI) as it fades color much different than negative stock. Another way to save money because with reversal stock a dupe neg optical could be made off of the original neg without the need (cost) of an IP. Bob Micheletti Engineer, Universal Pictures Hollywood From rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Thu Apr 30 23:28:31 2009 From: rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com (Bob Currier) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:28:31 -0700 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <0B97F7E08E9641339BA91B1180CD1E1B@DESKTOP> References: <0B97F7E08E9641339BA91B1180CD1E1B@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20090430222831.489959063@smarthost.coxmail.com> I'd agree that the best 3D has been IMAX, with active shutter glasses. "The Last Buffalo" is my personal favorite. As for porn, how can anyone forget "Stewardesses 3D" from the early '70s? Rated X at the time, it would probably get PG-13 today, but it seemed well worth sneaking into when I was in high school. Still available from Amazon (with anaglyph glasses!): And, ahem, I'm told Blu-Ray porn is growing now that the restrictions on the stamping plants have been relaxed by Sony. The demand is there, butt pimples and all. As for home viewing, I think the goal is not to find a system compatible with current TVs, but rather drive another round of upgrades with 3D capability. Good luck with that, but there are already a few sets with the necessary connector to drive shutter glasses. Sorry, don't have the link handy. ----- Bob Currier rcurrier at synthetic-ap.com Synthetic Aperture voice: +1 949 493-3444 Helping Make Your Work Look Its Best fax: +1 949 203-2108 web: www.synthetic-ap.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Apr 30 22:46:33 2009 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 00:46:33 +0300 Subject: [Tig] The 3D tech cycle In-Reply-To: <334409.64867.qm@web57702.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <334409.64867.qm@web57702.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <27FC5711-2A02-4228-A801-A5637E772CA7@colorist.org> On Apr 30, 2009, at 9:39 PM, Schuyler Dunn wrote: > Well, I wouldn't put A Bronx Tale or, especially, The Shawshank > Redemption into that category, either. I liked Coraline more than > both of those. each to his own. Shawshank is rated in the top 5 of films of all time by the AFI.. Coraline? well.. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org