From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 1 17:42:23 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:42:23 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. Message-ID: <8F92A163-B4FB-48F5-A26E-2C0C7D761D84@colorist.org> this is a bit OT, but thought I'd ask if anyone here on the TIG has experience with this particular problem. Bob Friesenhahn has already offered his expertise, but the question is, as I've found, more complicated than that which I presented to him. I quote myself: "I shoot RAW NEF files, in Adobe RGB. In Photoshop, I have as my working space sRGB, because my photos are all going to the web. When I open the NEF in Photoshop, I'm asked if I want to convert the image to the current working profile (sRGB) and I answer yes. so far so good. however, when I save the file as a .jpg, and then view in a web browser, saturation is down by about maybe 4% or so. Not a visible difference to many, but to me it's noticeable and makes me wonder what's going on. The same image in photoshop, opened again as saved on the local Mac and viewed in Photoshop, has the 'correct' saturation. There is a "Custom" setting in Photoshop that allows a saturation adjustment, so this might be an acknowledged problem. Does anyone else have this problem, or experience in correcting for it?" -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From martin-p at moving-picture.com Mon Dec 1 18:18:33 2008 From: martin-p at moving-picture.com (Martin Parsons) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:18:33 -0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <8F92A163-B4FB-48F5-A26E-2C0C7D761D84@colorist.org> Message-ID: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Hi Rob Right at the beginning you can choose to save you NEF RAW files in sRGB format as well as Adobe RGB. This might cut out part of your problem. Regards Martin Martin Parsons Head of Imaging MPC Soho, London www.moving-picture.com From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 1 19:04:42 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:04:42 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> I want to work in Adobe RGB workspace because of the wider color gamut. but if my final is going to be sRGB, you're saying it makes no difference.. I've tried this incidentally and have the same problem with saturation. I think I neeed either to create a "custom" colorspace in PS or, use a different pre- processor before PS, like the one Nikon sells. On Dec 1, 2008, at 8:18 PM, Martin Parsons wrote: > Hi Rob > > Right at the beginning you can choose to save you NEF RAW files in > sRGB > format as well as Adobe RGB. > > This might cut out part of your problem. > > > Regards > > Martin > > > Martin Parsons > Head of Imaging > MPC > Soho, London > www.moving-picture.com > > > -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From carl at stopp.se Mon Dec 1 21:52:51 2008 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 22:52:51 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Web monitors Message-ID: Hey, Guys You know when you do a job thats "just" going up on the web on either YouTube/MySpace or just as a banner on a site... We all are working with propper Rec709/ITU601 CRT/LCD monitors... (expencive, calibrated VIDEO monitors) Is this truly right if the target is "web"? Our webdepartment wants me to put in a "calibrated LCD" for the sessions that are going to them. What is a "calibrated LCD" in that sence? If I take a normal of the shelf computer monitor and use a probe to calibrate it to a rec709-target... its just gona look the same as my grade monitor! (yes a know, not the same, since it crap in contrast, gammut etc) >From what I know about web stuff is that there isn't realy a precise taget-profile as we in TV/Film has. Or is it? Should it be with a target of sRGB or what? Or does anyone have a converter-box that makes video look correct on web through a 3D-LUT? /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 1 22:51:18 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:51:18 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: <77ED8625-D970-49E7-A65A-F774AB466423@colorist.org> On Dec 1, 2008, at 8:18 PM, Martin Parsons wrote: > Hi Rob > > Right at the beginning you can choose to save you NEF RAW files in > sRGB > format as well as Adobe RGB. both? I've chosen one or the other, and done tests; same problem. still investigating (thanks) Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Dec 2 02:15:02 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:15:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2008, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I've tried this incidentally and have the same problem with > saturation. I think I neeed either to create a "custom" colorspace > in PS or, use a different pre-processor before PS, like the one > Nikon sells. Did you investigate the rendering intent settings as I had suggested? Often this can make a big difference. Also, you should apply any profile settings (i.e. transform actual pixels to sRGB) and remove any embedded profiles when creating a JPEG for the web. Web brower support for embedded profiles is currently unreliable and it will take longer for the browser to render your image. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From shane at sohoasiapost.com Tue Dec 2 02:19:38 2008 From: shane at sohoasiapost.com (Shane Bartley) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 09:19:38 +0700 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <8F92A163-B4FB-48F5-A26E-2C0C7D761D84@colorist.org> Message-ID: Hi Rob, I too noticed a difference between Photoshop and Preview for my jpgs. I realised I hadn't checked the box to 'Embed Color Profile' into the file, it seems to default to an unchecked state. So always remember to check the embed color profile box in your save dialog! This should clear up your saturation problems. FYI I too use RAW NEFs, but I usually don't get further than Lightroom 2 when processing my pics. Photoshop's USM is still much better for sharpening though! Shane Bartley | shane at filmcolourist.net | www.filmcolourist.net I'm not affiliated with Abode! Just like their photography tools! > From: Rob Lingelbach > Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:42:23 +0200 > To: Telecine Internet Group > Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. > > 2056 subscribers as of November 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. > Reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > this is a bit OT, but thought I'd ask if anyone here on the TIG has > experience with > this particular problem. Bob Friesenhahn has already offered his > expertise, but the > question is, as I've found, more complicated than that which I > presented to him. > > I quote myself: > > "I shoot RAW NEF files, in Adobe RGB. > In Photoshop, I have as my working space sRGB, because my photos are > all going to the web. When I open the NEF in Photoshop, I'm asked if > I want > to convert the image to the current working profile (sRGB) and I > answer yes. > > so far so good. however, when I save the file as a .jpg, and then > view in a > web browser, saturation is down by about maybe 4% or so. Not a > visible difference > to many, but to me it's noticeable and makes me wonder what's going on. > The same image in photoshop, opened again as saved on the local Mac and > viewed in Photoshop, has the 'correct' saturation. > > There is a "Custom" setting in Photoshop that allows a saturation > adjustment, > so this might be an acknowledged problem. > > Does anyone else have this problem, or experience in correcting for it?" > > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Dec 2 02:24:10 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:24:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Web monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Dec 2008, Carl Skaff wrote: > > We all are working with propper Rec709/ITU601 CRT/LCD monitors... > (expencive, calibrated VIDEO monitors) Is this truly right if the > target is "web"? Not completely. Computer monitors are classified as "sRGB" which is similar to Rec709 except that the bottom part of the gamma curve is slightly different and max/min values are usually extended to max range since sRGB is not constrained to be standard "video". See http://www.w3.org/Graphics/Color/sRGB http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB You can use a pair of Rec709 and sRGB ICC profiles to convert your images from Rec709 colorspace to accurate sRGB. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From adrian at autotv.co.uk Tue Dec 2 10:31:15 2008 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:31:15 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> Message-ID: <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> On 1 Dec 2008, at 19:04, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > I want to work in Adobe RGB workspace because of the wider color > gamut. but if my final > is going to be sRGB, you're saying it makes no difference.. > It does make a difference... it makes it WORSE. If you 'develop' your RAW file to a TIFF in one colourspace and then convert that TIFF to another space you will get an inferior result to 'developing' direct to the second colourspace. Don't forget that the RAW file has no implicit colourspace so you're free to 'develop' it to any supported colourspace at any time (and there are wider gamut spaces than aRGB), irrespective of your prior choice of space in camera. Phew. > I've tried this incidentally and have the same problem with > saturation. I think I neeed either > to create a "custom" colorspace in PS or, use a different pre- > processor before PS, like the one > Nikon sells. > Definitely use the Nikon one, Photoshop is a wonderful piece of work, but the developers are largely required to reverse engineer the exact specifications of each camera's unique combination of CFA properties and detector spectral sensitivity (not to mention lens characteristics). -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 2 13:15:08 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:15:08 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2008, at 8:18 PM, Martin Parsons wrote: > Hi Rob > > Right at the beginning you can choose to save you NEF RAW files in > sRGB > format as well as Adobe RGB. both? I've chosen one or the other, and done tests; same problem. still investigating (thanks) Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From jpo at prestodigital.ca Tue Dec 2 15:21:03 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 08:21:03 -0700 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> > Don't forget that the RAW file has no implicit colourspace so > you're free to 'develop' it to any supported colourspace at any > time (and there are wider gamut spaces than aRGB), irrespective of > your prior choice of space in camera. > At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a RAW file is what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED Cinema family of products. There was a major amount of flailing around in a recent test since the lead technical person didn't seem to have any appreciation for colourspace whatsoever, and was exhibiting the material on a couple of off-the-shelf PC monitors (which bore no correspondence to the SONY on-set preview LCD) or to what we were seeing in either the histograms or scopes. There were no profiles selected, no calibrations, no LUTs... quite an interesting demonstration of the unvarnished truth. Neither of the high-profile DPs in attendance came away with much confidence in what they might expect from a real-world performance. (We did do a follow-up in a different circumstances, calibrated space which re-formed a number of opinions.) But for what its worth, these particular cinematographers are still not that excited. Their impression: maybe the device will be a great boon for those used to the DV-class of rendition, but Super35-types are very skeptical. At this point, they are curious as to how to re-create looks that are very predictable on emulsion that don't seem to register with this RAW approach... mixed source lighting especially seems to behave in a seriously different way. On "Web monitors": I do believe that it is still important to pay attention to gamut and legal colourspace even if its "only for the web". In one sense, HTML restrictions on available values make it a little more challenging to achieve intent -- and certainly out-of-gamut values will result in unintended reproductions. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk Tue Dec 2 16:45:19 2008 From: Laurence.Claydon at deluxedigital.co.uk (Laurence Claydon) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:45:19 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: To derive a known colourspace, you would need at least pre-knowledge of the RGB spectral sensitivity and gamma of the capture device. This could then be gamut-mapped into any desired colourspace or look-managed for any given pipeline. There is a degree of vagueness in manufacturers' specifications when it comes to this, that can make it slightly cumbersome to integrate into a hybrid workflow. Either that or I am missing some documentation..... Anyone?? Laurence Claydon Deluxe Digital London > Don't forget that the RAW file has no implicit colourspace so > you're free to 'develop' it to any supported colourspace at any > time (and there are wider gamut spaces than aRGB), irrespective of > your prior choice of space in camera. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Dec 2 16:58:38 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:58:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Adrian Thomas wrote: > It does make a difference... it makes it WORSE. If you 'develop' your RAW > file to a TIFF in one colourspace and then convert that TIFF to another space > you will get an inferior result to 'developing' direct to the second > colourspace. Don't forget that the RAW file has no implicit colourspace so This is indeed true. However, if there is an intention to output the final result to several different colorspaces, then it is useful to choose a "working" space which best represents the original image. Working this way requires that the software provide real-time color management for the display so that you can (approximately) see what you are doing. The final result has more opportunity to be targeted to various applications such as high-grade printing or display. The work should always be done with at least 16-bits per color sample. There is nothing magical about Adobe RGB except that Adobe owns the rights to it. I am impressed with the approach that Bruce Lindbloom used when developing his Beta RGB (see http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index.html?BetaRGB.html). Beta RGB is optimized for colors commonly found in camera images. It has superior gammut volume and superior LAB gammut efficiency than Adobe RGB. Given sufficiently capable software it should be possible to convert from RAW to Beta RGB and use that as the working (and preservation) format while still being able to produce reasonable representations for printer and screen. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From BTopazio at company3.com Tue Dec 2 17:19:29 2008 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:19:29 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Free stuff... Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC6340184C80E@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Available for FREE (well, how about a little TIG support): Abekas A83 control surface Abekas A57 control panel CMX OMNI edit systems A few 1630 VHS decks U want it U come get it U save big! Seriously, this is going to hit the dumpsters in a day or two. Who knows what else I may have. Maybe a couple of SGI CRTs. Maybe Onyx2 (for a little cash)... Contact me ASAP if you have any interest. Bill Topazio Engineering COMPANY 3 /METHOD NEW YORK 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017 212-687-4000 212-907-1225 direct 917-881-0172 cell 212-907-1270 fax www.company3.com / www.methodstudios.com From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 2 17:20:31 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:20:31 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:19 AM, Shane Bartley wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I too noticed a difference between Photoshop and Preview for my > jpgs. I > realised I hadn't checked the box to 'Embed Color Profile' into the > file, it > seems to default to an unchecked state. So always remember to check > the > embed color profile box in your save dialog! This should clear up your > saturation problems. Hi Shane, Actually I use the Embed CP, and the differences I see are not between Photoshop and Preview.app; these look very similar when displaying what I've saved as a jpg with sRGB applied. It's when I look at the image in a web browser (Firefox) that it changes, and so it might be HTML limitations, as Bob Friesenhahn and Joe Owens pointed out. I've found the color management setting for Firefox (it's off by default) and have turned it on for testing. I'll also compare with Opera, Safari, Camino, et al. (I knew there was eventually going to be a reason to keep those browsers on the machine.) Also am looking into the Rendering Intent options BF mentioned. Rendering Intent: backpacking your Final Cut into the wilderness... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 2 17:54:15 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:54:15 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I've found the color > management setting for Firefox (it's off by default) and have turned > it on > for testing. I'll also compare with Opera, Safari, Camino, et al. hm, interesting. workflow, for still image: Nikon RAW->Photoshop->save as sRGB jpg at max quality. on MacBook Pro, personally calibrated display: Photoshop and Preview.app match close enough not to see difference on MacBook Pro Safari is a very close match to the Photoshop and Preview images. Camino shows obvious drop in saturation (I'd guess 5-8%), and a very different curve: blacks are down but upper midrange is elevated. Firefox, with color management enabled *or* disabled, is the furthest from Photoshop/ Preview/Safari: similar to Camino however. don't trust your browser, is I suppose one conclusion; another is that I'll use Safari from now on, yet ... since IE holds steady at 70-75% of market share, it would be nice to see how it handles images, a forlorn hope would be that it's similar to Safari. *claimer: limitations of laptop display could be influencing in some way these comparisons. *disclaimer: Don't have any commercial connection with any of the products above. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Dec 2 17:56:22 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:56:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: > > At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a RAW file is > what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED Cinema family of products. RAW files do actually have an "implicit colorspace" but it is a colorspace depending on the nature of the image sensor and the current camera settings. If the camera settings are entirely manual, then it is possible to create a profile which represents the camera's "implicit colorspace" for those settings. An image of a standard calibration reference target is sufficient. For this situation, it does not matter if the camera is from RED Cinema or is a Nikon SLR. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 2 20:10:21 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:10:21 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Craig Leffel References: Message-ID: <520ACE78-4BF5-4E2F-A990-65BC541BB840@colorist.org> Begin forwarded message: > From: Bob Festa > Date: December 2, 2008 9:57:16 PM GMT+02:00 > To: Rob Lingelbach > Subject: Fwd: Craig Leffel > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Bob Festa >> Date: December 2, 2008 11:47:05 AM PST >> To: Craig Leffel , Group Internet Telecine > > >> Subject: Craig Leffel >> >> So I'm reading this weeks "Shoot Magazine" in the mens room at New >> Hat. >> >> I stumble into the editing and post section and there is a great >> little silver bullet from our very own Craig Leffel from Optimus >> Chicago. Brilliant words. >> >> On the opposite page is a full page ad with Craig in a all white >> clean room bunny suit with tight white medical latex gloves. >> Somehow familiar. >> >> At which point I remind myself to get my annual digital rectal >> examination. >> >> Sorry Craig, I'll never think of you the same way again. >> >> Smile. >> ___________________ >> Bob Festa >> 1819 Colorado Avenue >> Santa Monica, CA 90409 >> 310 401-2220 newhat.tv -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From craig at optimus.com Tue Dec 2 19:59:14 2008 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:59:14 -0600 Subject: [Tig] Craig Leffel In-Reply-To: <5DD5F102-6490-4067-82B3-331D8CDCDA26@mac.com> References: <5DD5F102-6490-4067-82B3-331D8CDCDA26@mac.com> Message-ID: <49359392.8060102@optimus.com> Can I just say that it's our Advertising agency's idea of a good time? I like them - they're good pals.... Thanks for the note Bob.... I like that you're thinking of me, no matter where you are. In your other thought, is the "digital" part of that sentence an index finger, or is it more like what happens to me after I've done a full day of color correcting webisodes? I look forward to each of those things with the same enthusiasm.... Yours truly - Craig Leffel Senior Colorist Optimus Where the cows are. Bob Festa wrote: > So I'm reading this weeks "Shoot Magazine" in the mens room at New Hat. > > I stumble into the editing and post section and there is a great > little silver bullet from our very own Craig Leffel from Optimus > Chicago. Brilliant words. > > On the opposite page is a full page ad with Craig in a all white clean > room bunny suit with tight white medical latex gloves. Somehow familiar. > > At which point I remind myself to get my annual digital rectal > examination. > > Sorry Craig, I'll never think of you the same way again. > > Smile. > ___________________ > Bob Festa > 1819 Colorado Avenue > Santa Monica, CA 90409 > 310 401-2220 newhat.tv > > > From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 2 20:25:11 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:25:11 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7FCE473B-FF53-4FF8-BE1B-0F3F3FFCF072@colorist.org> with some help from Bob Friesenhahn and Mario Fuchs, and particularly the tips at http://www.viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift/ I'm getting more predictable results without embedding any color profile. Also, Firefox is now actually doing the reverse of what it was before- now images display perhaps 1-2% oversaturated. Safari continues to be the best, and as Bob pointed out, makes sense because it must be using OS X color management. He also noted that (pardon me for mentioning this without asking Bob) that it would be a good idea to be sure I'm getting the full 6 bits out of the MacBook Pro's display. heheh. What got me started down this road in color space were the problems I was having in the DaVinci Gallery using export- the resulting images look extremely different no matter what save options I use (don't have the software upgrade that offers "graphics save" option as mentioned last week on the group. I would ask the following of Bob Friesenhahn: is GraphicsMagick ported to Windows? That's the OS on the machine running Gallery. I would like to create a kind of LUT that I can use to batch process 10-20 stills at a time, perhaps from TIFF to JPG, hoping to get something more closely approximating SD video on EBU phosphors. It's not a fine adjustment, it's a very large or coarse change needed. or ... i suppose instead I could get the stills onto the TIG server and use GM on that machine (which isn't running Windows). -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Tue Dec 2 20:38:55 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:38:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <7FCE473B-FF53-4FF8-BE1B-0F3F3FFCF072@colorist.org> References: <7FCE473B-FF53-4FF8-BE1B-0F3F3FFCF072@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I would ask the following of Bob Friesenhahn: > > is GraphicsMagick ported to Windows? That's the OS on the machine > running Gallery. I would like to create a kind of LUT that I can > use to batch process 10-20 stills at a time, perhaps from TIFF to > JPG, hoping to get something more closely approximating SD video on > EBU phosphors. It's not a fine adjustment, it's a very large or > coarse change needed. Yes, GraphicsMagick binaries are available for Windows. GraphicsMagick provides access to color management facilities via lcms but does not include an automatic "color management system". It provides the ability to apply specific transforms via profiles (-profile option). Regardless, it may effectively be used as a color management tool, as demonstrated by Corbis (large stock photo agency) using it as part of their color management process for at least four years. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From wwerks at verizon.net Wed Dec 3 04:44:18 2008 From: wwerks at verizon.net (Geoff Wheeler) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:44:18 -0500 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <49360EA2.1060406@verizon.net> Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of November 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. > Reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: >> >> At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a RAW >> file is what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED Cinema >> family of products. > > RAW files do actually have an "implicit colorspace" but it is a > colorspace depending on the nature of the image sensor and the current > camera settings. If the camera settings are entirely manual, then it > is possible to create a profile which represents the camera's > "implicit colorspace" for those settings. An image of a standard > calibration reference target is sufficient. For this situation, it > does not matter if the camera is from RED Cinema or is a Nikon SLR. > > Bob > ====================================== > Bob Friesenhahn > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, > http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ Ok, here's where my hair _really_ starts to hurt. Shoot, say, a Macbeth chart at the start of a session, and you'll have a RAW reference that would coincide w/ an sRGB reference (this assumes a 'flat' lighting scheme), since Macbeths now come with sRGB values (or they can be had). Won't RAW then match sRGB? Viewing the RAW image in a manufacturer-supplied viewer side-by-side with a PS viewing of the same image in sRGB space look the same? What if, heaven forfend, someone gets the crazy notion to gel the lights, or balance for HMI, fluorescents, incandescents, or candles (well, the last _is_ crazy). Now your RAW reference is matched with what, exactly, in sRGB space, since you've thrown the known values in a cocked hat? Does any of the above make sense, or am I twisting my hair in knots kneedlessly? BTW, though I haven't used it much in a while, I'm a devout Corel fan. I may crank it up for this and see just how nuts it can _really_ get around here. Thanks for reading this far, Geoff. From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 3 11:18:47 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:18:47 +0200 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: > thanks to all who've weighed in on this subject, and a couple of notes for those who may not be aware: Bob Friesenhahn maintains GraphicsMagick and it is available as open source, for free. Thus it doesn't run afoul of any restrictions on marketing to our mass audience when discussed. Mr. F gave me immediate and significant help in configuring and building it on a system that was missing some libraries.. there are real advantages to having the developer available (try that with a commercial package). Also, the power of the unix command line, and gnu's configure, never cease to surprise. I can use GraphicsMagick now to do the color work on stills for clients, and if by good luck I get a good transformation flow working, I'll share with the group. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From adrian at autotv.co.uk Wed Dec 3 13:45:46 2008 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:45:46 +0000 Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <6B06CE59-C340-48B8-84DA-033C49A26A9D@autotv.co.uk> On Dec 2, 2008, at 17:56, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: >> >> At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a >> RAW file is what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED >> Cinema family of products. > > RAW files do actually have an "implicit colorspace" but it is a > colorspace depending on the nature of the image sensor and the > current camera settings. If the camera settings are entirely > manual, then it is possible to create a profile which represents > the camera's "implicit colorspace" for those settings. An image of > a standard calibration reference target is sufficient. For this > situation, it does not matter if the camera is from RED Cinema or > is a Nikon SLR. > A single photograph of a test target would not likely be able to determine the full spectral sensitivity of a typical Bayer filtered image sensor - how would you know if the target exceeded the gamut of the sensor for a start? Would the target have sufficient dynamic range to map the linearity of the sensor's response? Do you know exactly how the CFA has been designed (are there two different greens, for example)? It wasn't for nothing that Adobe complained to Nikon about their encrypting of RAW meta data. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 3 14:46:07 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:46:07 +0200 Subject: [Tig] positions on the Classifieds. Message-ID: <7D399A5E-1025-4C7B-BFB0-A6CC3154FABF@colorist.org> at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds there is at least one new position listed, in Zurich Switzerland. in order not to clog the mailinglist, you can use RSS to track recent TIG wiki changes, as outlined under "NOTICE" on the first, main page. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Dec 3 18:17:54 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:17:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. In-Reply-To: <6B06CE59-C340-48B8-84DA-033C49A26A9D@autotv.co.uk> References: <39EA469F166B7741B8E3305B5B58B49415EB58B3@mpcosmail01.ad.mpc.local> <25FA4CD4-0F89-4387-B38A-BC98DAA76B3A@colorist.org> <61B6A684-A0F5-4A9F-881F-8DA8C5843090@autotv.co.uk> <793DB4D0-5DFE-4896-8BE0-4D837D426A96@prestodigital.ca> <6B06CE59-C340-48B8-84DA-033C49A26A9D@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Adrian Thomas wrote: > > A single photograph of a test target would not likely be able to determine > the full spectral sensitivity of a typical Bayer filtered image sensor - how > would you know if the target exceeded the gamut of the sensor for a start? I agree that nothing is perfect, and that most things in life are only a approximation. There are people doing this sort of thing with digital cameras, and they report reasonable results. No degree of automation will ever entirely replace the judgment of a professional Colorist. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From BTopazio at company3.com Wed Dec 3 21:20:10 2008 From: BTopazio at company3.com (Bill Topazio) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:20:10 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Free stuff... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC6340192C75D@harbor250ex2.corp.ad> OK, have takers for some of the A83 stuff. Added: Ultimatte-8 control panel (wonder where the heck the frame is...) Renny 888 front panel SONY Lasermax laser disk player!!! Hey this one's gotta be worth something :-) ________________________________ From: Bill Topazio Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:19 PM To: tig at colorist.org Subject: Free stuff... Available for FREE (well, how about a little TIG support): Abekas A83 control surface Abekas A57 control panel CMX OMNI edit systems A few 1630 VHS decks U want it U come get it U save big! Seriously, this is going to hit the dumpsters in a day or two. Who knows what else I may have. Maybe a couple of SGI CRTs. Maybe Onyx2 (for a little cash)... Contact me ASAP if you have any interest. Bill Topazio Engineering COMPANY 3 /METHOD NEW YORK 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017 212-687-4000 212-907-1225 direct 917-881-0172 cell 212-907-1270 fax www.company3.com / www.methodstudios.com From rob at colorist.org Thu Dec 4 14:12:17 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:12:17 +0200 Subject: [Tig] The earliest color correction chart. In-Reply-To: <200812031915_MC3-2-17CE-1D00@compuserve.com> References: <200812031915_MC3-2-17CE-1D00@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <1D29F3EF-9F76-49E2-88D8-92750EEE5A06@colorist.org> The earliest color correction chart has been unearthed by Peter Swinson who shares it generously with the rest of us. The chart seems extraordinarily innovative for its terminology and simplicity of use. http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Peter_Swinson_on_Early_Bubble_Rise_Rate_Color if the URL above wraps badly, go to the bottom of the following page for the link: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Technical_discussions -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Thu Dec 4 14:25:14 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 16:25:14 +0200 Subject: [Tig] The earliest color correction chart. In-Reply-To: <1D29F3EF-9F76-49E2-88D8-92750EEE5A06@colorist.org> References: <200812031915_MC3-2-17CE-1D00@compuserve.com> <1D29F3EF-9F76-49E2-88D8-92750EEE5A06@colorist.org> Message-ID: <513E4AE8-313A-444C-A2EB-A9E73D643D6D@colorist.org> in this article written by P. Swinson, http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Peter_Swinson_on_Early_Bubble_Rise_Rate_Color reference is made to the Lovibond Tintometer, on the color chart (label). From the Lovibond Tintometer website: "The Lovibond® range offers users best equipment in all environments: potable and washing water, surface, ground and raw water, wastewater and effluents and swimming pools." No mention of Whiskey is made; however, effluents, which affluence avoids by definition and spelling, could be considered a byproduct of the former. As are virulence, continence, and flatulence. no connection whatever with Lovibond, its products or byproducts. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From alanr at bhphoto.com Thu Dec 4 14:55:25 2008 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:55:25 -0500 Subject: [Tig] The earliest color correction chart. In-Reply-To: <1D29F3EF-9F76-49E2-88D8-92750EEE5A06@colorist.org> Message-ID: <4ECA604FF422FB45895CBD200C64D65C1F78207DCC@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> I imagine an ad agency wasn't involved as there is only one choice... alan Alan Rosenfeld The Studio - B&H -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:12 AM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: Re: [Tig] The earliest color correction chart. 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== The earliest color correction chart has been unearthed by Peter Swinson who shares it generously with the rest of us. The chart seems extraordinarily innovative for its terminology and simplicity of use. http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Peter_Swinson_on_Early_Bubble_Rise_Rate_Color if the URL above wraps badly, go to the bottom of the following page for the link: http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Technical_discussions -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From turnto at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 4 19:10:53 2008 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] MkIII 35MM optical sensor Message-ID: <315597.27487.qm@web52507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Anyone I would like to pose a question and would ask that you keep the sinkers to a minimum :) I need a replacement sensor assembly for a MK III 35MM optical sound reader. If anyone has one I would greatly appreciate a reply. david.keleshian at tvc.cbs.com Support for the tig goes without saying. As Donald Rumsfeld would say: Manny Tanks DK From turnto at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 4 19:10:53 2008 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] MkIII 35MM optical sensor Message-ID: <315597.27487.qm@web52507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Anyone I would like to pose a question and would ask that you keep the sinkers to a minimum :) I need a replacement sensor assembly for a MK III 35MM optical sound reader. If anyone has one I would greatly appreciate a reply. david.keleshian at tvc.cbs.com Support for the tig goes without saying. As Donald Rumsfeld would say: Manny Tanks DK From turnto at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 4 20:40:10 2008 From: turnto at sbcglobal.net (David Keleshian) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 12:40:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] MK III 35MM optical sound References: Message-ID: <601475.26392.qm@web52512.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Anyone I would like to pose a question and would ask that you keep the sinkers to a minimum :) I need a replacement sensor assembly for a MK III 35MM optical sound reader. If anyone has one I would greatly appreciate a reply. david.keleshian at tvc.cbs.com Support for the tig goes without saying. As Donald Rumsfeld would say: Manny Tanks DK From rob at cinelab.com Thu Dec 4 22:24:42 2008 From: rob at cinelab.com (Robert Houllahan) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:24:42 -0500 Subject: [Tig] MkIII 35MM optical sensor In-Reply-To: <315597.27487.qm@web52507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <315597.27487.qm@web52507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I need a replacement sensor assembly for a MK III 35MM optical sound > reader. If > anyone has one I would greatly appreciate a reply. Mono or stereo? I might be able to scare one up. -Rob- Robert Houllahan rob at cinelab.com Filmmaker Vp Cinelab Inc. www.cinelab.com From carl at stopp.se Sun Dec 7 15:28:43 2008 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:28:43 +0100 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV Message-ID: Hi I was doing some tests regarding the HDSR-deck. I'm woundering wether it is realy any advantages recording to it as RGB444 rather then YUV422 if it is more compressed. >From what I understand the SR (not in HQ!) records in RGB with a 4:1 compression while in YUV422 its 2:1. So I've always thought RGB giving more "shades" of color and a bigger gamut/more colors. And that YUV422 is better compressed. Therefor I do "technical scanes" (flat scans, no clipping, no creative grading) in RGB444 and then I grade it in my Resolve and output after in YUV422 since the colors woun' t be tuched and I don't want another 4:1 compression. But when viewing it I can't rely see any advantages doing the RGB444 at all... what should I be looking for when comparing them. This is what I have: Ref: Spirit 4K, scanned in 2K, croped to 1920x1080 pixel-by-pixel Recorded to SR in RGB444, and ingested in Resolve Recorded to SR in YUV422, and ingested in Resolve if anyone would like to download theses DPX'es and compare them self, just email me and I'll make an FTP. Its about 4GB. (I know what you might say Sony, I should get the new board and record RGB444-HQ in 2:1 instead. having the best of both worlds.) /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 ________________________________________ From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of tig-request at colorist.org [tig-request at colorist.org] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 15:30 To: tig at colorist.org Subject: Tig Digest, Vol 108, Issue 3 Send Tig mailing list submissions to tig at colorist.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://tig.colorist.org/mailman/listinfo/tig or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to tig-request at colorist.org You can reach the person managing the list at tig-owner at colorist.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Tig digest..." 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== Today's Topics: 1. Free stuff... (Bill Topazio) 2. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Rob Lingelbach) 3. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Rob Lingelbach) 4. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Bob Friesenhahn) 5. Fwd: Craig Leffel (Rob Lingelbach) 6. Re: Craig Leffel (Craig Leffel) 7. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Rob Lingelbach) 8. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Bob Friesenhahn) 9. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Geoff Wheeler) 10. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Rob Lingelbach) 11. Re: OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. (Adrian Thomas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:19:29 -0500 From: "Bill Topazio" Subject: [Tig] Free stuff... To: Message-ID: <8B0BA2808E4CEA47B36553F01A9EC6340184C80E at harbor250ex2.corp.ad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Available for FREE (well, how about a little TIG support): Abekas A83 control surface Abekas A57 control panel CMX OMNI edit systems A few 1630 VHS decks U want it U come get it U save big! Seriously, this is going to hit the dumpsters in a day or two. Who knows what else I may have. Maybe a couple of SGI CRTs. Maybe Onyx2 (for a little cash)... Contact me ASAP if you have any interest. Bill Topazio Engineering COMPANY 3 /METHOD NEW YORK 545 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10017 212-687-4000 212-907-1225 direct 917-881-0172 cell 212-907-1270 fax www.company3.com / www.methodstudios.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:20:31 +0200 From: Rob Lingelbach Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Shane Bartley Cc: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Dec 2, 2008, at 4:19 AM, Shane Bartley wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I too noticed a difference between Photoshop and Preview for my > jpgs. I > realised I hadn't checked the box to 'Embed Color Profile' into the > file, it > seems to default to an unchecked state. So always remember to check > the > embed color profile box in your save dialog! This should clear up your > saturation problems. Hi Shane, Actually I use the Embed CP, and the differences I see are not between Photoshop and Preview.app; these look very similar when displaying what I've saved as a jpg with sRGB applied. It's when I look at the image in a web browser (Firefox) that it changes, and so it might be HTML limitations, as Bob Friesenhahn and Joe Owens pointed out. I've found the color management setting for Firefox (it's off by default) and have turned it on for testing. I'll also compare with Opera, Safari, Camino, et al. (I knew there was eventually going to be a reason to keep those browsers on the machine.) Also am looking into the Rendering Intent options BF mentioned. Rendering Intent: backpacking your Final Cut into the wilderness... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:54:15 +0200 From: Rob Lingelbach Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > I've found the color > management setting for Firefox (it's off by default) and have turned > it on > for testing. I'll also compare with Opera, Safari, Camino, et al. hm, interesting. workflow, for still image: Nikon RAW->Photoshop->save as sRGB jpg at max quality. on MacBook Pro, personally calibrated display: Photoshop and Preview.app match close enough not to see difference on MacBook Pro Safari is a very close match to the Photoshop and Preview images. Camino shows obvious drop in saturation (I'd guess 5-8%), and a very different curve: blacks are down but upper midrange is elevated. Firefox, with color management enabled *or* disabled, is the furthest from Photoshop/ Preview/Safari: similar to Camino however. don't trust your browser, is I suppose one conclusion; another is that I'll use Safari from now on, yet ... since IE holds steady at 70-75% of market share, it would be nice to see how it handles images, a forlorn hope would be that it's similar to Safari. *claimer: limitations of laptop display could be influencing in some way these comparisons. *disclaimer: Don't have any commercial connection with any of the products above. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 11:56:22 -0600 (CST) From: Bob Friesenhahn Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Joe Owens Cc: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: > > At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a RAW file is > what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED Cinema family of products. RAW files do actually have an "implicit colorspace" but it is a colorspace depending on the nature of the image sensor and the current camera settings. If the camera settings are entirely manual, then it is possible to create a profile which represents the camera's "implicit colorspace" for those settings. An image of a standard calibration reference target is sufficient. For this situation, it does not matter if the camera is from RED Cinema or is a Nikon SLR. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:10:21 +0200 From: Rob Lingelbach Subject: [Tig] Fwd: Craig Leffel To: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: <520ACE78-4BF5-4E2F-A990-65BC541BB840 at colorist.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Begin forwarded message: > From: Bob Festa > Date: December 2, 2008 9:57:16 PM GMT+02:00 > To: Rob Lingelbach > Subject: Fwd: Craig Leffel > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Bob Festa >> Date: December 2, 2008 11:47:05 AM PST >> To: Craig Leffel , Group Internet Telecine > > >> Subject: Craig Leffel >> >> So I'm reading this weeks "Shoot Magazine" in the mens room at New >> Hat. >> >> I stumble into the editing and post section and there is a great >> little silver bullet from our very own Craig Leffel from Optimus >> Chicago. Brilliant words. >> >> On the opposite page is a full page ad with Craig in a all white >> clean room bunny suit with tight white medical latex gloves. >> Somehow familiar. >> >> At which point I remind myself to get my annual digital rectal >> examination. >> >> Sorry Craig, I'll never think of you the same way again. >> >> Smile. >> ___________________ >> Bob Festa >> 1819 Colorado Avenue >> Santa Monica, CA 90409 >> 310 401-2220 newhat.tv -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:59:14 -0600 From: Craig Leffel Subject: Re: [Tig] Craig Leffel To: Bob Festa Cc: Group Internet Telecine Message-ID: <49359392.8060102 at optimus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Can I just say that it's our Advertising agency's idea of a good time? I like them - they're good pals.... Thanks for the note Bob.... I like that you're thinking of me, no matter where you are. In your other thought, is the "digital" part of that sentence an index finger, or is it more like what happens to me after I've done a full day of color correcting webisodes? I look forward to each of those things with the same enthusiasm.... Yours truly - Craig Leffel Senior Colorist Optimus Where the cows are. Bob Festa wrote: > So I'm reading this weeks "Shoot Magazine" in the mens room at New Hat. > > I stumble into the editing and post section and there is a great > little silver bullet from our very own Craig Leffel from Optimus > Chicago. Brilliant words. > > On the opposite page is a full page ad with Craig in a all white clean > room bunny suit with tight white medical latex gloves. Somehow familiar. > > At which point I remind myself to get my annual digital rectal > examination. > > Sorry Craig, I'll never think of you the same way again. > > Smile. > ___________________ > Bob Festa > 1819 Colorado Avenue > Santa Monica, CA 90409 > 310 401-2220 newhat.tv > > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:25:11 +0200 From: Rob Lingelbach Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: <7FCE473B-FF53-4FF8-BE1B-0F3F3FFCF072 at colorist.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes with some help from Bob Friesenhahn and Mario Fuchs, and particularly the tips at http://www.viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift/ I'm getting more predictable results without embedding any color profile. Also, Firefox is now actually doing the reverse of what it was before- now images display perhaps 1-2% oversaturated. Safari continues to be the best, and as Bob pointed out, makes sense because it must be using OS X color management. He also noted that (pardon me for mentioning this without asking Bob) that it would be a good idea to be sure I'm getting the full 6 bits out of the MacBook Pro's display. heheh. What got me started down this road in color space were the problems I was having in the DaVinci Gallery using export- the resulting images look extremely different no matter what save options I use (don't have the software upgrade that offers "graphics save" option as mentioned last week on the group. I would ask the following of Bob Friesenhahn: is GraphicsMagick ported to Windows? That's the OS on the machine running Gallery. I would like to create a kind of LUT that I can use to batch process 10-20 stills at a time, perhaps from TIFF to JPG, hoping to get something more closely approximating SD video on EBU phosphors. It's not a fine adjustment, it's a very large or coarse change needed. or ... i suppose instead I could get the stills onto the TIG server and use GM on that machine (which isn't running Windows). -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:38:55 -0600 (CST) From: Bob Friesenhahn Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Rob Lingelbach Cc: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I would ask the following of Bob Friesenhahn: > > is GraphicsMagick ported to Windows? That's the OS on the machine > running Gallery. I would like to create a kind of LUT that I can > use to batch process 10-20 stills at a time, perhaps from TIFF to > JPG, hoping to get something more closely approximating SD video on > EBU phosphors. It's not a fine adjustment, it's a very large or > coarse change needed. Yes, GraphicsMagick binaries are available for Windows. GraphicsMagick provides access to color management facilities via lcms but does not include an automatic "color management system". It provides the ability to apply specific transforms via profiles (-profile option). Regardless, it may effectively be used as a color management tool, as demonstrated by Corbis (large stock photo agency) using it as part of their color management process for at least four years. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:44:18 -0500 From: Geoff Wheeler Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: tig at tig.colorist.org Message-ID: <49360EA2.1060406 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of November 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. > Reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: >> >> At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a RAW >> file is what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED Cinema >> family of products. > > RAW files do actually have an "implicit colorspace" but it is a > colorspace depending on the nature of the image sensor and the current > camera settings. If the camera settings are entirely manual, then it > is possible to create a profile which represents the camera's > "implicit colorspace" for those settings. An image of a standard > calibration reference target is sufficient. For this situation, it > does not matter if the camera is from RED Cinema or is a Nikon SLR. > > Bob > ====================================== > Bob Friesenhahn > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, > http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ Ok, here's where my hair _really_ starts to hurt. Shoot, say, a Macbeth chart at the start of a session, and you'll have a RAW reference that would coincide w/ an sRGB reference (this assumes a 'flat' lighting scheme), since Macbeths now come with sRGB values (or they can be had). Won't RAW then match sRGB? Viewing the RAW image in a manufacturer-supplied viewer side-by-side with a PS viewing of the same image in sRGB space look the same? What if, heaven forfend, someone gets the crazy notion to gel the lights, or balance for HMI, fluorescents, incandescents, or candles (well, the last _is_ crazy). Now your RAW reference is matched with what, exactly, in sRGB space, since you've thrown the known values in a cocked hat? Does any of the above make sense, or am I twisting my hair in knots kneedlessly? BTW, though I haven't used it much in a while, I'm a devout Corel fan. I may crank it up for this and see just how nuts it can _really_ get around here. Thanks for reading this far, Geoff. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:18:47 +0200 From: Rob Lingelbach Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Bob Friesenhahn Cc: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > thanks to all who've weighed in on this subject, and a couple of notes for those who may not be aware: Bob Friesenhahn maintains GraphicsMagick and it is available as open source, for free. Thus it doesn't run afoul of any restrictions on marketing to our mass audience when discussed. Mr. F gave me immediate and significant help in configuring and building it on a system that was missing some libraries.. there are real advantages to having the developer available (try that with a commercial package). Also, the power of the unix command line, and gnu's configure, never cease to surprise. I can use GraphicsMagick now to do the color work on stills for clients, and if by good luck I get a good transformation flow working, I'll share with the group. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:45:46 +0000 From: Adrian Thomas Subject: Re: [Tig] OT: color space in Photoshop, from Nikon NEF. To: Bob Friesenhahn Cc: Telecine Internet Group Message-ID: <6B06CE59-C340-48B8-84DA-033C49A26A9D at autotv.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Dec 2, 2008, at 17:56, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: >> >> At least for me, this "no implicit colourspace" associated with a >> RAW file is what is a bit confusing when approaching the RED >> Cinema family of products. > > RAW files do actually have an "implicit colorspace" but it is a > colorspace depending on the nature of the image sensor and the > current camera settings. If the camera settings are entirely > manual, then it is possible to create a profile which represents > the camera's "implicit colorspace" for those settings. An image of > a standard calibration reference target is sufficient. For this > situation, it does not matter if the camera is from RED Cinema or > is a Nikon SLR. > A single photograph of a test target would not likely be able to determine the full spectral sensitivity of a typical Bayer filtered image sensor - how would you know if the target exceeded the gamut of the sensor for a start? Would the target have sufficient dynamic range to map the linearity of the sensor's response? Do you know exactly how the CFA has been designed (are there two different greens, for example)? It wasn't for nothing that Adobe complained to Nikon about their encrypting of RAW meta data. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 End of Tig Digest, Vol 108, Issue 3 *********************************** From carl at stopp.se Sun Dec 7 15:29:31 2008 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:29:31 +0100 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV Message-ID: (oups, the first one was with a massive quote at the end, sorry) Hi I was doing some tests regarding the HDSR-deck. I'm woundering wether it is realy any advantages recording to it as RGB444 rather then YUV422 if it is more compressed. >From what I understand the SR (not in HQ!) records in RGB with a 4:1 compression while in YUV422 its 2:1. So I've always thought RGB giving more "shades" of color and a bigger gamut/more colors. And that YUV422 is better compressed. Therefor I do "technical scanes" (flat scans, no clipping, no creative grading) in RGB444 and then I grade it in my Resolve and output after in YUV422 since the colors woun' t be tuched and I don't want another 4:1 compression. But when viewing it I can't rely see any advantages doing the RGB444 at all... what should I be looking for when comparing them. This is what I have: Ref: Spirit 4K, scanned in 2K, croped to 1920x1080 pixel-by-pixel Recorded to SR in RGB444, and ingested in Resolve Recorded to SR in YUV422, and ingested in Resolve if anyone would like to download theses DPX'es and compare them self, just email me and I'll make an FTP. Its about 4GB. (I know what you might say Sony, I should get the new board and record RGB444-HQ in 2:1 instead. having the best of both worlds.) /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Dec 7 16:45:55 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 08:45:55 -0800 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >But when viewing it I can't rely see any advantages doing the RGB444 at all... what should I be looking for when comparing them. Unless you are looking at your work on a very good VERY big display (like maybe 40 feet), the difference is not apparent to mere humans. Where it does tend to make a slight difference is being able to extract very fine detail like flyaway hairs when compositing, but even there, it's not that big a deal. And unless you stay RGB444 all the way through the entire chain including display, dropping into YUV422 anywhere along the path will get you irreversibly into YUV422 color space, AFAIK. Having said that, I must admit that if I'm shooting and RGB444 is available from the camera, and the recorder supports it, I'll always run an extra coax and use it, even if I know that it will be ingested from the SRW's 422 output later. That way, I can legitimately tell the producer I recorded at the very best available quality, and what they do with it later is up to them. >(I know what you might say Sony, I should get the new board and record RGB444-HQ in 2:1 instead. having the best of both worlds.) I would be amazed if you could EVER see the difference between that and any of the lower quality formats mentioned, and your interchange problems would go up, since not many post houses have bothered to get tape deck hardware to support that format yet. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Dec 7 19:17:26 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:17:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2008, Carl Skaff wrote: > From what I understand the SR (not in HQ!) records in RGB with a 4:1 > compression while in YUV422 its 2:1. It is important to recognize that YUV is itself a form of compression. Then when you subsample that, you are applying another form of compression. If the material is captured with 14 or 12 bits (at the sensor) and then log or gamma encoded to 10 or 8 bits, then that is yet another form of compression. These forms of compression are commonly used since they are trivial to apply. Manufacturers are not entirely honest since they may ignore the compression caused by YUV and subsampling and only consider the additional compression that their own algorithms add on top of that in the tape deck. The reason why the tape deck is able to compress YUV422 less than "4:4:4" RGB is that the YUV material is already substantially compressed. The actual total compression ratio achieved by using YUV422 is far more than 2:1. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From kevs at finalcolor.com Mon Dec 8 07:55:08 2008 From: kevs at finalcolor.com (Kevin Shaw) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 07:55:08 +0000 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well said Bob! I have always been concerned that too much emphasis has been placed on pixel resolution, and that 10 bit log is considered ³uncompressed² To get from 14 bits (film) to 10 bits is mathematically a 16:1 compression, predominantly in the highlights. If you count the steps that means 10 bit has 1024 steps per color compared to 16384 in 14 bit ­ so over 15000 steps are lost. The argument that ³most of that information is unwanted² is pretty weak in my opinion. I was hoping that the move to data would gradually eliminate the old ³real time video² limitations. But I fear this is another example of the railways being based on the size of a Roman cart horse :-) Happy Coloring Kevin Kevin Shaw freelance consultant colorist kevs at finalcolor.com www.finalcolor.com ---------------------------------------------- On 07/12/2008 19:17GMT, "Bob Friesenhahn" wrote: > If the material is captured with 14 or 12 bits (at the > sensor) and then log or gamma encoded to 10 or 8 bits, then that is > yet another form of compression. From adrian at autotv.co.uk Mon Dec 8 13:22:34 2008 From: adrian at autotv.co.uk (Adrian Thomas) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:22:34 +0000 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4971E620-64FC-4784-B5F9-2121B31002B8@autotv.co.uk> > On 8 Dec 2008, at 07:55, Kevin Shaw wrote: >> >> To get from 14 bits (film) to 10 bits is mathematically a 16:1 >> compression, >> predominantly in the highlights. If you count the steps that means >> 10 bit >> has 1024 steps per color compared to 16384 in 14 bit – so over >> 15000 steps >> are lost. The argument that “most of that information is unwanted” >> is pretty >> weak in my opinion. >> It's very misleading to characterise film as "14 bits". I've seen plenty of shots made on film where 4 or 5 bits would have been more than enough to quantise it. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- > From carl at stopp.se Mon Dec 8 15:32:57 2008 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:32:57 +0100 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: <4971E620-64FC-4784-B5F9-2121B31002B8@autotv.co.uk> References: , <4971E620-64FC-4784-B5F9-2121B31002B8@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: So seems like no one has anything realy to say about it. We did some more tests here in our Flame... and we can see a diference but can't say witch one is better then the other!? Kind of concluding this: Go RGB if you are worried about "cross tallk" from a component signal. Go YUV if you are worried about compression artifacts. Although, I can't see any compression or crosstalk that will cause any problem. At least not for general TV stuff. /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 ________________________________________ From: Adrian Thomas [adrian at autotv.co.uk] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 14:22 To: Kevin Shaw Cc: Bob Friesenhahn; Carl Skaff; tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV > On 8 Dec 2008, at 07:55, Kevin Shaw wrote: >> >> To get from 14 bits (film) to 10 bits is mathematically a 16:1 >> compression, >> predominantly in the highlights. If you count the steps that means >> 10 bit >> has 1024 steps per color compared to 16384 in 14 bit – so over >> 15000 steps >> are lost. The argument that “most of that information is unwanted” >> is pretty >> weak in my opinion. >> It's very misleading to characterise film as "14 bits". I've seen plenty of shots made on film where 4 or 5 bits would have been more than enough to quantise it. -- Adrian Thomas AUTOMATIC TELEVISION LONDON UK WC2N 4DU www.autotv.co.uk +44 (0) 20 7240 2073 -- > From grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk Mon Dec 8 20:48:18 2008 From: grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:48:18 -0000 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought people were quite negative about film, but I think its also a trend that "people" (nobody in particular)in the industry are getting lazier, and less knowledgable, and more willing to take a shortcut to a compressed lesser quality picture rather than get someone knowledgeable to spend some time and effort in making a beautiful picture .... The other part of the equation is money. Ask why the CocaCola/Budweiser/MacDonalds commercials are always the best looking (just examples, there are a lot more than just those) .. Everyone else doesn't need to spend that much money but it is easily done with good people and a bit of effort. ... or people can do it themselves with a DVCam. Its still a commercial at the end of the day but a world of difference Regards ...ps, Dear santa, can I have a flameproof suit for christmas Graham Collett Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 8 22:24:07 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:24:07 +0200 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0997CCC1-FC93-41AD-BBF6-B2073309EA39@colorist.org> On Dec 8, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Graham Collett wrote: > I thought people were quite negative about film, (clearing of throat and blowing dust off keyboard) film can be quite negative, too. ;) > but I think its also a > trend that "people" (nobody in particular)in the industry are getting > lazier, and less knowledgable, and more willing to take a shortcut It's a truism that there's only so much good content, and so many channels for it that Shirley MacLaine would have trouble. The Age of Distraction, to paraphrase Saul Bellow, is upon us in force, succeeding the Age of Irony and Postmodernism. > Ask why the CocaCola/Budweiser/MacDonalds commercials are always the > best looking (just examples, there are a lot more than just those) .. a Ronald McDonald fan! :) As examples I'd probably choose automobile commercials, though I would like to know how production and post-production in Detroit are faring at the moment. It could soon happen that McDonald's will outspend the US carmakers in advertising. cheers from a blizzard in Kiev Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From jpo at prestodigital.ca Mon Dec 8 22:51:41 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:51:41 -0700 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95F071DD-5EE5-4A3C-B923-93E2AF3A88D5@prestodigital.ca> And so the result is this: http://video.google.ca/videoplay? docid=-2092507199939708497&hl=en The Leader of the Opposition of the Federal Parliament of Canada, trying to win the hearts and minds of a nation, with a historically unprecedented coalition being formed to wrest power from a minority government. This is the future of a North American country, a G8 member, at stake. And being judged how? The medium is the message, and the message in this case, "We're a bunch of amateurs" and we want to run the country. This video is being pilloried by the National media. Uh, in other news, the Prime Minister (the other "fine fellow") then turned around and hijacked what we laughingly refer to as democracy by asking the Governor General (aka the Crown) to 'prorog' Parliament -- that is, suspended the state, to avoid a motion of Non-Confidence that would have brought down the government. The options for the Crown would have been to call another election (last one was in October, less than two months ago), or invite the "Coalition" to form a new government. Meanwhile, Rome burns. For want of a nail, a horse was lost, for want of a horse... and so on... It isn't always about selling hamburgers or cars. But the equivalent would be like forgetting to get dressed before going to work-- if it were simply embarrassing. But no, in this case "You're fired". ("Sacked") > Everyone else doesn't need to spend that much money but it is easily > done with good people and a bit of effort. ... or people can do it > themselves with a DVCam. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From cemoz101 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 00:33:37 2008 From: cemoz101 at yahoo.com (Cem Ozkilicci) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:33:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality" In-Reply-To: <95F071DD-5EE5-4A3C-B923-93E2AF3A88D5@prestodigital.ca> Message-ID: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi! Firstly, as a Canadian I cannot help but comment on the video that Joe has posted. I am ashamed, not only as a colorist but also as a viewer, to see such appalling visuals! But hey, I guess we gotta start cutting costs somewhere eh? ... Secondly, I noticed Rob's post about car spots and how things were going down in Detroit. Talking to a few colleagues around the world, I noticed that production in general has taken a hit ... I wouldn't be surprised to see a McDonalds spot shot on DV on the telly sometime soon! ... Nothing beats a clipped out Big Mac! ... Take care! Cem Ozkilicci Colorist RingSide Creative From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 9 14:16:30 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:16:30 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:33 AM, Cem Ozkilicci wrote: > Secondly, I noticed Rob's post about car spots and how things were > going down in Detroit. Talking to a few colleagues around the world, > I noticed that production in general has taken a hit ... On a theoretical graph representing cyclic change in the reorganization of our industry, the current cycle seems to be off the scale. The wisest course, in this regatta of open-class facility vessels (an analogical stretch), is to remain flexible, and determine new strategies as the customer base moves offshore into deeper waters. Like cod, the clients get scarcer, in a kind of depletion- phase Freakonomics. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 9 14:26:23 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:26:23 +0200 Subject: [Tig] congratulations Dom Message-ID: <0038C89D-3432-4868-9E6D-637A3DF1A454@colorist.org> The current issue of Shoot magazine (not to be confused with Shoot! magazine, which just folded, and was about "Guns, Gear, and Shooting of the Cowboy Era") congratulates Dom Rom on his ascension to Senior VP of Postworks Soho (NYC). References to his groundbreaking work at Unitel, Duart, Sekani, and Moving Images remind of the times I spent with him painting the cyclorama in the Unitel, NYC stages when we were Studio Managers. He's a regular here on the TIG. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From alanr at bhphoto.com Tue Dec 9 15:05:49 2008 From: alanr at bhphoto.com (Alan Rosenfeld) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:05:49 -0500 Subject: [Tig] congratulations Dom In-Reply-To: <0038C89D-3432-4868-9E6D-637A3DF1A454@colorist.org> Message-ID: <4ECA604FF422FB45895CBD200C64D65C1F782089BF@EXCMS01.bhphotovideo.local> Congratulations indeed!!! All the best, Dom, from the guy who used to watch you and Rob paint the studio while watching bad B movies for Showtime in Color Correct. Alan Rosenfeld Sales Consultant Post Production Specialist The Studio - B&H -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:26 AM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] congratulations Dom 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG. Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== The current issue of Shoot magazine (not to be confused with Shoot! magazine, which just folded, and was about "Guns, Gear, and Shooting of the Cowboy Era") congratulates Dom Rom on his ascension to Senior VP of Postworks Soho (NYC). References to his groundbreaking work at Unitel, Duart, Sekani, and Moving Images remind of the times I spent with him painting the cyclorama in the Unitel, NYC stages when we were Studio Managers. He's a regular here on the TIG. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From mfw at musictrax.com Tue Dec 9 16:22:24 2008 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:22:24 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Great TV spots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/8/08 12:48 PM, "Graham Collett" wrote: > Ask why the CocaCola/Budweiser/MacDonalds commercials are always the > best looking (just examples, there are a lot more than just those) .. >------------------------------------------------------------< Here in the U.S., the best-looking commercials I've seen are the Target spots (followed closely by the Old Navy commercials). All of them are strikingly beautiful, sharp as a tack, perfectly lit. Tons of multi-layered effects, 45-degree shutter stuff, impeccable camerawork. They often look so good, I have to immediately stop the HD Tivo and zip back to watch them; these are commercials you just can't fast-forward through. It doesn't get better than that. I wish we did 'em, but I believe they're done in Minneapolis -- on a Lustre, according to the guys at Autodesk/Santa Monica. I'm not sure of the company or colorist who does them, but kudos on doing superb work. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 9 17:01:53 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:01:53 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Great TV spots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E2FD925-414A-447C-90CA-438E8603907B@colorist.org> On Dec 9, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Marc Wielage wrote: > I have to immediately stop the HD Tivo and zip back to watch them; > these are commercials you just can't fast-forward through. It > doesn't get > better than that. I ran across, in doing some other research involving perusal of the LA Times, a mention in the Hot Property column that Director Kinka Usher, with whom I'd worked in the 90s, was buying a 4 million dollar estate, or was selling one.. There are some in LA whose rises were meteoric, and whose memories about their beginnings tend to dissipate later on... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 9 17:17:24 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:17:24 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Great TV spots In-Reply-To: <4E2FD925-414A-447C-90CA-438E8603907B@colorist.org> References: <4E2FD925-414A-447C-90CA-438E8603907B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <2989CC00-AD6F-41D9-BDBF-6447FE8B232E@colorist.org> On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I ran across, in doing some other research involving perusal of the > LA Times, a mention in the Hot Property column that Director Kinka > Usher I forgot to mention why this was relevant to what Marc Wielage wrote, which is that Kinka seems to be at the top of his career right now and because I don't get to see US commercials very often, "the Talking Chihuahua" doesn't mean much to me, unless I can find it somewhere on the web at high quality (what resource is there for current North American commercials other than YouTube?). -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From domrom at optonline.net Wed Dec 10 03:10:20 2008 From: domrom at optonline.net (Domenic Rom) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 22:10:20 -0500 Subject: [Tig] congratulations Dom In-Reply-To: <0038C89D-3432-4868-9E6D-637A3DF1A454@colorist.org> Message-ID: I didn't know they get Shoot in Kiev in the middle of a blizzard no less. Thanks for the kind wishes, now I work harder and longer and I am just that much older. Domenic Domenic Rom PostWorks NY -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:26 AM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] congratulations Dom 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG. Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== The current issue of Shoot magazine (not to be confused with Shoot! magazine, which just folded, and was about "Guns, Gear, and Shooting of the Cowboy Era") congratulates Dom Rom on his ascension to Senior VP of Postworks Soho (NYC). References to his groundbreaking work at Unitel, Duart, Sekani, and Moving Images remind of the times I spent with him painting the cyclorama in the Unitel, NYC stages when we were Studio Managers. He's a regular here on the TIG. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From eufaula920 at charter.net Wed Dec 10 10:59:56 2008 From: eufaula920 at charter.net (Stephen E. Kuns) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:59:56 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Great TV spots In-Reply-To: <2989CC00-AD6F-41D9-BDBF-6447FE8B232E@colorist.org> Message-ID: <6000E8A41F8A48F1A4B11C12878620ED@GinaPC> I used to visit firebrand.com untill they closed. Haven't found anything else like it. They would show the production company, director and agency after each spot. Really cool. And I do miss it. Stephen Kuns SSI Post Hollywood From jdhouston at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 14:16:56 2008 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 06:16:56 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> Message-ID: <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> On Dec 9, 2008, at 6:16 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > > On a theoretical graph representing cyclic change in the > reorganization of our industry, the current cycle seems to be off > the scale. The wisest course, in this regatta of open-class > facility vessels (an analogical stretch), is to remain flexible, > and determine new strategies as the customer base moves offshore > into deeper waters. Like cod, the clients get scarcer, in a kind > of depletion-phase Freakonomics. Ahhh, the first post on the TIG that could have been said by Alan Greenspan :-) Jim Houston "Where's my bailout" From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 10 14:38:29 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (rob at colorist.org) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 14:38:29 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Ahhh, the first post on the TIG that could have been said by Alan > Greenspan :-) > > Jim Houston > "Where's my bailout" Wouldn't it be nice if the bailouts went first to the homeless, the poverty-stricken. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Dec 10 15:16:30 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:16:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, rob at colorist.org wrote: > Wouldn't it be nice if the bailouts went first to the homeless, the > poverty-stricken. The US already has that bailout system in place. It is called "Welfare". Executives are flying in from all over in their private jets looking for a bailout so that the bankruptcy can be postponed to next year, and everyone can enjoy their holidays. The auto industry owns the fastest jets. Hollywood will be in line soon looking for its bailout but due the flights taking longer from Acapulco, the line is now long so it may be a while before they are assigned a number. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bob at bluescreen.com Wed Dec 10 19:08:38 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:08:38 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >> Wouldn't it be nice if the bailouts went first to the homeless, the poverty-stricken. >The US already has that bailout system in place. It is called "Welfare". The homeless don't get welfare, or any other sort of direct handout or bailout from the government. In order to collect any of that government welfare money, you need to have a fixed address, no exceptions. By definition, the homeless don't qualify. Their only help comes from private individuals like me who make contributions to the shelters, Missions, and Salvation Army. But I'm sure you already knew that. Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 10 20:23:28 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:23:28 +0200 Subject: [Tig] natural light Message-ID: There's something about natural illumination, that, given the right circumstances, makes film and hi-res video so nice to work with. I can't put my finger on it as to why it's more pleasing than artificial (so many variables), and this light differs from location to location; working in LA for so long, I could fairly well discern locations for exteriors by feeling the quality in spectrum of the light. For example, Santa Monica exteriors would have a neutral haze; Valley locations an umber tint; San Gabriel Valley locations a brown; desert clear and neutral, but without so much blue. In Europe, the weather is unpredictable so unlike Southern California, and nailing the location by lighting is more difficult. The diffusion from haze and smog can act like a big filter, in really nice ways. When in LA, I could always spot the Irvine shoots on film because the lighting is harsh, even at dawn and sunset; not as much pollution for diffusion there. I had the pleasure of visiting exterior sets during filming by a certain DoP from Brasil, Lauro Escorel, when he did _At Play In the Fields of the Lord_ and _Acquaria_. He used the most gigantic silks I'd ever seen to diffuse skylight; I'd never seen before a silk that could cover a half-acre. The results were always extraordinary. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG founder/admin rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 10 21:35:03 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:35:03 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <49805384-EF71-4FB6-93E4-9710DA35D534@colorist.org> On Dec 10, 2008, at 9:08 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > In order to collect any of that government welfare money, you need > to have a > fixed address, no exceptions. By definition, the homeless don't > qualify. good point. not to belabor it, but not having a fixed address excludes one from a huge swath of privileges including ordering from Amazon. However... I am asked often, while in countries other than the US "what is your National Identification System in the US?" (because, in most other countries, there exist certain National Documents that provide traceable numbers, database-able photos, etc.) and my answer of "A State-Issued Driver's License" or "A Social Security Number" is considered quite nebulous. Note that an SSN was not conceived as a National ID, but only became so 'ipso facto'. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From bob at bluescreen.com Thu Dec 11 03:38:54 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:38:54 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: <49805384-EF71-4FB6-93E4-9710DA35D534@colorist.org> References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> <49805384-EF71-4FB6-93E4-9710DA35D534@colorist.org> Message-ID: >However... I am asked often, while in countries other than the US >"what is your National Identification System in the US?" >and my answer of "A State-Issued Driver's License" or "A Social >Security Number" is considered quite nebulous. Don't worry, in the ongoing effort to have the U.S. government, in the name of security, know every single thing about everything people in the U.S. do, it's coming. And in one of the more delicious ironies, Janet Napolitano, the governor of Arizona, a woman who has said for years that Arizona would implement the national ID card over her dead body because it was an unwarranted and massive invasion of privacy which gave the government far too much power, has been given the Cabinet position responsible for implementing the plan to have everyone carry one. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From filmcolourist at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 10:51:13 2008 From: filmcolourist at gmail.com (David Gibson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:51:13 +1300 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should have seen the size of the silks they used during the shooting of "The Last Samurai" in NZ, where the summer light can be incredibly harsh and overhead for long periods of the day (thanks in part to a very thin ozone layer and almost zero pollution). I think they silked (sic) the entire battle scenes sets! I often find myself longing for a job with soft European light or polluted LA light or for that matter consistent weather conditions from one end of the day to the other... What doesn't break us, makes us stronger or some such hmmm. Dave Gibson Senior Colourist Digipost NZ www.digipost.co.nz "I have no affiliation with any light emitting objects, although I do possess a rather nice flashlight" On 11/12/2008, at 09:23 , Rob Lingelbach wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. > David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG. > Reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > There's something about natural illumination, that, given the right > circumstances, makes film and hi-res video so nice to work with. I > can't put my finger on it as to why it's more pleasing than > artificial (so many variables), and this light differs from location > to location; working in LA for so long, I could fairly well discern > locations for exteriors by feeling the quality in spectrum of the > light. For example, Santa Monica exteriors would have a neutral > haze; Valley locations an umber tint; San Gabriel Valley locations a > brown; desert clear and neutral, but without so much blue. > > In Europe, the weather is unpredictable so unlike Southern > California, and nailing the location by lighting is more > difficult. The diffusion from haze and smog can act like a big > filter, in really nice ways. When in LA, I could always spot the > Irvine shoots on film because the lighting is harsh, even at dawn > and sunset; not as much pollution for diffusion there. > > I had the pleasure of visiting exterior sets during filming by a > certain DoP from Brasil, Lauro Escorel, when he did _At Play In the > Fields of the Lord_ and _Acquaria_. He used the most gigantic silks > I'd ever seen to diffuse skylight; I'd never seen before a silk that > could cover a half-acre. The results were always extraordinary. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach TIG founder/admin > rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk Thu Dec 11 11:08:20 2008 From: grahamcollett at sprockets-telecine.co.uk (Graham Collett) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:08:20 -0000 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> UK is pretty well calibrated colourwise, but the big fluffy ND filter that sits over the whole country most of the time does tend to vary in density and humidity ..has anyone tried measurung the colour of the light outside ? ..might intersting to compare around the world. Graham Collett Sprockets(telecine) Ltd www.sprockets-telecine.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of David Gibson Sent: 11 December 2008 10:51 To: Rob Lingelbach Cc: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] natural light 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk supports the TIG. David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG. Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== You should have seen the size of the silks they used during the shooting of "The Last Samurai" in NZ, where the summer light can be incredibly harsh and overhead for long periods of the day (thanks in part to a very thin ozone layer and almost zero pollution). I think they silked (sic) the entire battle scenes sets! I often find myself longing for a job with soft European light or polluted LA light or for that matter consistent weather conditions from one end of the day to the other... What doesn't break us, makes us stronger or some such hmmm. Dave Gibson Senior Colourist Digipost NZ www.digipost.co.nz "I have no affiliation with any light emitting objects, although I do possess a rather nice flashlight" From ahauser at bigair.com.au Thu Dec 11 11:59:24 2008 From: ahauser at bigair.com.au (ahauser at bigair.com.au) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:59:24 +1100 (EST) Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> Message-ID: <51105.203.83.200.82.1228996764.squirrel@www.bigair.com.au> ..has anyone tried measurung the colour of the > light outside ? ..might intersting to compare around the world. > > Graham Collett Ill make an Aussie reading for you tomorrow Graham. I find this interesting as Id like to debunk the myth in my head that sony digital cameras always have this slight pink tinge that im continually pulling out in a grade. My theory is that their sensors and matrixing are set up for a Japanese or US exterior color temp which may be different to here in Aus. Its just a theory, Id I like to see it busted......or not..... Adrian Hauser Cutting Edge EQ Sydney From filmcolourist at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 11:31:00 2008 From: filmcolourist at gmail.com (David Gibson) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 00:31:00 +1300 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <51105.203.83.200.82.1228996764.squirrel@www.bigair.com.au> References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> <51105.203.83.200.82.1228996764.squirrel@www.bigair.com.au> Message-ID: Hey I just spent most of today pulling out heaps of magenta from footage shot in Sydney on the F900, but that said, I have always had to balance out magenta from Sony cameras, be it, Digibeta, Genisis, or SP for that matter, no matter what part of the world I've been grading in.... Dave GIbson Senior colourist Digipost NZ On 12/12/2008, at 00:59 , ahauser at bigair.com.au wrote: > ..has anyone tried measurung the colour of the >> light outside ? ..might intersting to compare around the world. From steve.simon at snellwilcox.com Thu Dec 11 11:46:26 2008 From: steve.simon at snellwilcox.com (Steve Simon) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:46:26 +0000 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> Message-ID: > ..has anyone tried measurung the colour of the > light outside ? I have a distant memory that d65 was chosen as daylight reference based on the colour of the sky above Broadcasting house in London on somthing like the 1st June 1948. I may be completely fooling myself (or perhaps the person who told me was pulling my leg) - I'am sure there will be somone on the TIG that knows the truth. -Steve From rob at colorist.org Thu Dec 11 12:34:03 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:34:03 +0200 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> On Dec 11, 2008, at 1:46 PM, Steve Simon wrote: > I have a distant memory that d65 was chosen as daylight reference > based on the colour of the sky above Broadcasting house in London > on somthing like the 1st June 1948. and I sincerely thought it was Washington DC at noon on a cloudy 1st of October. These differing viewpoints could be similar to "who invented the airplane," which honor in the US goes to the Wright Brothers, but in France goes to Chanute, and in Brasil to Santos-Dumont. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From steve.simon at snellwilcox.com Thu Dec 11 13:12:42 2008 From: steve.simon at snellwilcox.com (Steve Simon) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:12:42 +0000 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> Message-ID: > These differing viewpoints could be similar to "who invented the > airplane," which honor > in the US goes to the Wright Brothers, but in France goes to Chanute, > and in Brasil to > Santos-Dumont. A perfect anology if I may say so :-) -Steve From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Dec 11 13:23:31 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 05:23:31 -0800 Subject: [Tig] natural light-Is diffuseness measurable? In-Reply-To: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2008, at 3:08 AM, Graham Collett wrote: > UK is pretty well calibrated colourwise, but the big fluffy ND filter > that sits over the whole country most of the time does tend to vary in > density and humidity ..has anyone tried measurung the colour of the > light outside ? ..might intersting to compare around the world. > > Graham Collett On can measure light intensity and color, but is there a measure of "softness" or "diffuseness?" Googling the phrase "Measuring Diffuseness of Light" didn't turn up anything directly related to measuring this parameter of illumination, although it did come up with some interesting distractions. I. E.: Gloss meters measure the scattering of light reflected back from surface samples. Being able to measure this particular "quality" of illumination might be very helpful when duplicating shots at different times and locations when coupled with direction, color and intensity information. Green screen stuff comes to mind. I suppose one could construct a device like a disc with a dowel in the center to act as a shadow-caster, and then make some comparisons or measurements about how sharp (or spread) the shadow of the dowel was relative to a reference of some kind, and to measure the differences between the darkest and lightest portions of the shadow gradient. If properly designed and aligned when outside during the day, one might also be able to tell solar time. Ted Ted Langdell tedlangdell.com and flashscan8.us From rob at colorist.org Thu Dec 11 14:08:40 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:08:40 +0200 Subject: [Tig] natural light-Is diffuseness measurable? In-Reply-To: References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > On can measure light intensity and color, but is there a measure of > "softness" or "diffuseness?" I think you can change 'diffuseness' to 'diffusion' without having to coin the new term. I was going to say that it would be 'sharpness gone negative' but we were talking about diffusion as a modification or quality of light, rather than focus/defocus or sharp/unsharp. > I suppose one could construct a device like a disc with a dowel in > the center to act as a shadow-caster, and then make some comparisons > or measurements about how sharp (or spread) the shadow of the dowel > was relative to a reference of some kind, and to measure the > differences between the darkest and lightest portions of the shadow > gradient. > > If properly designed and aligned when outside during the day, one > might also be able to tell solar time. The Incas did it hundreds of years ago, and a commercial shoot almost destroyed their apparatus, at Machu Picchu a few years ago, when the camera crane fell on it. :) (the incident is true but the apparatus was not exactly what you're describing) An interesting idea, the Langdell Shadowcasterscope. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From dnakiller at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 14:55:37 2008 From: dnakiller at gmail.com (dnakiller) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:55:37 +0100 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: References: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> Message-ID: <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone, this is my first reply. I really like the subject, and since I work with colour, I can appreciate the "Ocotber in Rome" (Ottobrata romana). October, here is a magic month. The light is warm and extremly sharp and everything from the ugly suburb to the ancient city centre is gorgeous with that light. It seems like dawn end near the middle of the day and the start the long dusk.... I really like it! :) So, Hello to everyone my name is Gabriele Peloso and I work in Rome at Frame by Frame with Pablo. Nice to read you :) Gabriele 2008/12/11 Steve Simon > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG. > Reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > > > These differing viewpoints could be similar to "who invented the > > airplane," which honor > > in the US goes to the Wright Brothers, but in France goes to Chanute, > > and in Brasil to > > Santos-Dumont. > > A perfect anology if I may say so :-) > > -Steve > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > -- G From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Dec 11 15:47:40 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:47:40 -0800 Subject: [Tig] natural light-Is diffuseness measurable? In-Reply-To: References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> Message-ID: <547F6A82-1C40-411D-B33B-855C144F57FE@tedlangdell.com> On Dec 11, 2008, at 6:08 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > An interesting idea, the Langdell Shadowcasterscope LOL :) Were it that simple. Add electronics (maybe with a tube) and call it a Diffuse-a-tron. Sounds like some chrome and black-wrinkle painted device from the early 1950s. Is there a NEED for such an item? (Maybe a better question for the CML.) Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From rob at colorist.org Thu Dec 11 15:53:20 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:53:20 +0200 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <979F8441-A878-4B17-AAF8-2D803173233E@colorist.org> On Dec 11, 2008, at 4:55 PM, dnakiller wrote: > So, Hello to everyone > my name is Gabriele Peloso and I work in Rome at Frame by Frame with > Pablo. Hi Gabriele, welcome to the TIG. I hope it serves your interests professionally. Is the air pollution in Rome a brown, sepia, or gray color? sincerely, Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/colorist rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From jdhouston at earthlink.net Thu Dec 11 16:43:04 2008 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:43:04 -0800 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I could fairly well discern locations for exteriors by feeling the > quality in spectrum of the light. ...San Gabriel Valley locations a > brown; I can always tell I'm home by the taste of the air. :-) Jim Houston San Gabriel Valley From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Dec 11 17:15:39 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:15:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Freakonomics (was: HDSR RGB vs YUV and "Quality") In-Reply-To: References: <748998.4436.qm@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <9FEAF82F-8A7B-4B30-885E-D3B39C240AB7@colorist.org> <205FE6B2-DCF5-4238-A65E-6A6E1A8459DF@earthlink.net> <49805384-EF71-4FB6-93E4-9710DA35D534@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Bob Kertesz wrote: > >> However... I am asked often, while in countries other than the US >> "what is your National Identification System in the US?" >> and my answer of "A State-Issued Driver's License" or "A Social >> Security Number" is considered quite nebulous. > > Don't worry, in the ongoing effort to have the U.S. government, in the name of > security, know every single thing about everything people in the U.S. do, it's > coming. I am afraid that the US government is officially last to this feeding trough but when the tree finally falls, there will be no noise. Commercial databases already know everything about you and the government already has access to these databases. In addition to medical, credit, and white-page databases, there are databases maintained by advertisers such as Google, Yahoo, Amazon, and DoubleClick which track your every move as you access the Internet. One of the main reasons why Google and Yahoo offer free email accounts and services is because people never really log out and so they fall into the trap of being tracked by all sites participating in Google or Yahoo sponsored advertising (which seems to be most of them now). It does not take much to collect all this data and build a full profile on you. > And in one of the more delicious ironies, Janet Napolitano, the governor of > Arizona, a woman who has said for years that Arizona would implement the > national ID card over her dead body because it was an unwarranted and massive > invasion of privacy which gave the government far too much power, has been The USSR and Nazi Germany had national ID systems with people needing show their "papers" at a moment's notice and I doubt that anyone openly complained about it. ;-) Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bob at bluescreen.com Thu Dec 11 16:51:54 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:51:54 -0800 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <51105.203.83.200.82.1228996764.squirrel@www.bigair.com.au> References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> <51105.203.83.200.82.1228996764.squirrel@www.bigair.com.au> Message-ID: >I find this interesting as Id like to debunk the myth in my head that sony digital cameras >always have this slight pink tinge that im continually pulling out in a >grade. My theory is that their sensors and matrixing are set up for a Japanese or US exterior color >temp which may be different to here in Aus. Its just a theory, Id I like >to see it busted......or not..... With Sony's biggest client being NHK, most Sony cameras fresh out of the box are set up (more or less) for the NHK standards. In general, that would be blacks slammed down, whites slammed up, exaggerated saturation, and detail set to Spinal Tap's "11". There are a lot of color handles on most Sony pro cameras (a pro camera being defined by me as a camera body costing in excess of $20K U.S. or so) and an incredible number of incompetent fools out there twisting those handles like there's no tomorrow. With budgets dropping, more and more shoots are done where there is no one on set with the slightest idea of what they are doing from a color or technical standpoint, but people figure that the menus, being calibrated in numbers, should be adjustable by anyone while looking off-angle at a 6.5" scaled 6 bit onboard LCD monitor. Most decent Sony cameras have three sets of matrices - fixed (709, 240, etc.), plus variable color difference on top of that, plus a selective one that allows you to select a particular color and affect its hue and saturation. So you can see that the potential for screwing up the colors is enormous, and unlike film stock, the pictures you get back to grade in your room can vary wildly from the identical camera model. I attended one of those "shootouts" results meetings at the ASC about six months ago, where they were comparing footage from half a dozen HD video cameras and a couple of film stocks, and when I raised my hand and asked who had set up the video cameras, I was met with a blank stare. But the presenter was able to go into detail about the film stock's print light settings and where the footage was corrected and by whom. Like most similar "shootouts", it was a meaningless display of nothing significant because the baseline calibrated setup apparently consisted of hitting the "white balance" button on all the HD cameras. If no one has set up the camera, then it's at the settings the owner, the rental company, or the last person who used it put into it, and that could be really good, or really sucky. Just a note from the production end of things. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 18:07:09 2008 From: cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk (chi ying chan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:07:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <309479.31630.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "If you count the steps that means 10 bit has 1024 steps per color compared to 16384 in 14 bit ­ so over 15000 steps are lost. The argument that ³most of that information is unwanted² is pretty weak in my opinion." Absolutely correct. Give us more than 10 bit log! Regards Chan Chi Ying DP HK From cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 18:11:43 2008 From: cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk (chi ying chan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:11:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: <4971E620-64FC-4784-B5F9-2121B31002B8@autotv.co.uk> Message-ID: <724237.74848.qm@web28516.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "It's very misleading to characterise film as "14 bits". I've seen plenty of shots made on film where 4 or 5 bits would have been more than enough to quantise it." Don't thinks so. Regards Chan Chi Ying DP HK From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Dec 11 18:29:30 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:29:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: <309479.31630.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <309479.31630.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, chi ying chan wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG.Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== > > "If you count the steps that means 10 bit has 1024 steps per color > compared to 16384 in 14 bit ­ so over 15000 steps are lost. The > argument that ³most of that information is unwanted² is pretty weak > in my opinion." Absolutely correct.Give us more than 10 bit log! The DPX file format has 12 and 16-bit options. There is nothing preventing use of the extra bits with CineonLog or true linear-light other than existing application deficiencies. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 18:16:36 2008 From: cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk (chi ying chan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:16:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <75136.98032.qm@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "I can't see any compression or crosstalk that will cause any problem. At least not for general TV stuff." Correct. But after you filmout and project it on a 40' screen,you can tell the differences. Regards Chan Chi Ying DP HK From cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 11 19:05:44 2008 From: cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk (chi ying chan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:05:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <55965.75741.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "The DPX file format has 12 and 16-bit options. There is nothing preventing use of the extra bits with CineonLog or true linear-light other than existing application deficiencies." So next time i can ask the post house to scan 12bit log? Regards Chan Chi Ying DP HK From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu Thu Dec 11 18:49:02 2008 From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:49:02 -0500 Subject: [Tig] diffusion measurement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Is there a NEED for such an item? (Maybe a better question for the CML.)" Absolutely if one is doing compositing 3-d work and would like to accurately match environmental lighting ---Larry Towers From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu Thu Dec 11 18:59:47 2008 From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:59:47 -0500 Subject: [Tig] More bits? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "If you count the steps that means 10 bit has 1024 steps per color compared to 16384 in 14 bit ? so over 15000 steps are lost. The argument that ?most of that information is unwanted? is pretty weak in my opinion." Absolutely correct. Give us more than 10 bit log! I think that there is difference between dynamic range and dynamic resolution that is being missed in the bit wars. To make an argument that something is weak without quantifying why it is weak does everyone a disservice. It's not enough to say just because. Can we quantify how many equivalent bits per pixel of color are actually captured (not just theoretically attainable) for any given film stock? ---Larry T From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Dec 11 19:46:22 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:46:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: <55965.75741.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <55965.75741.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, chi ying chan wrote: > "The DPX file format has 12 and 16-bit options. There is nothing preventing use of the extra bits with CineonLog or true linear-light other than existing application deficiencies." > > So next time i can ask the post house to scan 12bit log? All I can say is "good luck". You are likely to have more success from requesting 16 bits even though the 12-bit format is a subset of the 16-bit format. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Thu Dec 11 19:59:13 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:59:13 +0200 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2576B51F-B1F7-471E-B5AE-903D3A2A040D@colorist.org> Regarding D65, it's useful to remember that it specifies not only an absolute color temperature reference (6504K) but also a spectrum. Any colorist who's dealt with lighting variance knows that there are peaks and valleys in the different spectra for different lamps, or combination of light sources. The Wikipedia entry on D65 also states: "D65 corresponds roughly to a mid-day sun in Western Europe / Northern Europe, hence it is also called a daylight illuminant." I wonder if that statement is true, and the source of the information would be of interest if known. The best I could do in a cursory web search turned up this sentence, which is part of a paper submitted for publication called " Re-evaluation of daylight spectral distributions, Color Res. and Appl" by Balázs Kránicz and János Sch (something tells me there's some truncation going on) at http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.42.521 "The spectral power distribution of colorimetric daylight illuminants was determined based on measurements [1] done some 40 years ago." Apparently refers to a 1964 paper by DB, Wyszecki et al., and both of these papers seem to be available on the net, though as soon as I saw a Shopping Cart I went no further. The graphs of D65 show a relative power that varies with respect to wavelength: a spectral power distrubution, and the Wiki article goes on: "Variations in the relative spectral power distribution of daylight are known to occur, particularly in the ultraviolet spectral region, as a function of season, time of day, and geographic location." I'd want to add atmosphere and weather to that. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From 5tu at theorphanage.com Thu Dec 11 20:36:49 2008 From: 5tu at theorphanage.com (Stu Maschwitz) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:36:49 -0800 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FA23B56-A71D-4885-86FD-0E777B077B9E@theorphanage.com> On 081211, at 6:55 AM, dnakiller wrote: > I really like the subject, and since I work with colour, I can > appreciate > the "Ocotber in Rome" (Ottobrata romana). You are not kidding -- I was just in Rome last October, and the light was gorgeous. http://www.flickr.com/photos/prolost/2987938933/in/set-72157609539711041/ -Stu -- stu maschwitz www.theorphanage.com www.prolost.com From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Thu Dec 11 20:15:25 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:15:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] More bits? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Dec 2008, Lawrence Towers wrote: > > I think that there is difference between dynamic range and dynamic > resolution that is being missed in the bit wars. To make an argument > that something is weak without quantifying why it is weak does > everyone a disservice. It's not enough to say just because. Can we > quantify how many equivalent bits per pixel of color are actually > captured (not just theoretically attainable) for any given film > stock? Agreed. 10-bit Cineon Log is a bit weak since it offers only a bit more than 2X the quantization resolution of 8-bit Rec.709 video within the useful range supported by Rec.709. On the plus side, it supports far more dynamic range and is a good match for film. Quite a lot of the Cineon Log space is reserved for headroom. No one using Cineon Log from film-sourced images will complain since the film grain variation is much more significant than variation due to quantization to bits. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From owen at ywwg.com Thu Dec 11 20:34:25 2008 From: owen at ywwg.com (Owen Williams) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:34:25 -0500 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" Message-ID: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> This is an interesting study about researchers who studied lots of faces and discovered that men's skin tones tend toward a particular hue, and women's skin tones tend toward a different hue. See if you can guess the hues before you click: http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2008/12/color I would say that this result makes sense to me (I do find myself fixing that color in men a lot), but I read the article before thinking about it so I might be projecting. Should they have just asked a colorist first before going to all the trouble of doing a study? :) Owen Williams -- Freelance Online Editor / Colorist 617.669.3020 linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/owengwilliams reel : http://www.vimeo.com/2076321 (password: 'demo') blog : http://ywwg.com/wordpress/?cat=36 imdb : http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1741110/ From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Dec 11 21:27:37 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:27:37 -0800 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <2576B51F-B1F7-471E-B5AE-903D3A2A040D@colorist.org> References: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> <2576B51F-B1F7-471E-B5AE-903D3A2A040D@colorist.org> Message-ID: <8C748467-E34E-4694-8276-76A2B43D7FAD@tedlangdell.com> On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > "Variations in the relative spectral power distribution of daylight > are known to occur, particularly in the ultraviolet spectral region, > as a function of season, time of day, and geographic location." > > I'd want to add atmosphere and weather to that. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach Lots of fun shooting in places like Hawaii, where clouds often passing overhead change the lighting environment quite a lot in a short period of time... with resulting fun on the post side. Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Dec 11 21:50:42 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:50:42 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Camera settings as it affects color (was natural light) In-Reply-To: References: <981A94BB68494612AAAAB74D874C30E3@Sprocket> <51105.203.83.200.82.1228996764.squirrel@www.bigair.com.au> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2008, at 8:51 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > If no one has set up the camera, then it's at the settings the > owner, the > rental company, or the last person who used it put into it, and that > could be > really good, or really sucky. Its not just a problem with cameras used on single-camera, film style shoots. A couple of Sr. Video Engineers (responsible for color/exposure/setup on live shows) were commenting on another list last month about the condition they find camera settings for trucks full of high-end HD cameras. One said: "Some of the strange settings I see are the corrective matrix turned off. I guess they don't realize that the matrix corrects for the inability of the sensors to produce negative colors. Flares not adjusted, gamma not adjusted, using a fluorescent correction in the matrix for a daylight picture, knee turned off, things like that. There are many tweaks in the enhancer, especially on Sony 1500s. I like a little more V, a little less strength on the white and black edges, thiner edges, correct black cut for noise reduction Stuff like that." Which prompted the other to reply: "So many times I work in trucks and look in the sub menus. Not only are camera circuits not turned on or off when needed, but different adjustments are made on each camera!!!! Different matrix, gammas, knee, and detail settings. I wonder who did the show before me??? And how bad it looked. Many video engineers do not know half the sub menus in the LDK series of HD cameras or how to set them. The same goes for the newer scopes, frame syncs and Up Cons. (Upconverters) Of course, many Video Engineers do know, I do not mean to put those engineers down. There are many good ones out there. Sometimes I feel that the newer equipment is over engineered. Give me a 528 scope or a Norelco PC-70 any day!" A little Yoke Rotation, anyone? Ted Ted Langdell tedlangdell.com and flashscan8.us From ted at tedlangdell.com Thu Dec 11 21:51:22 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:51:22 -0800 Subject: [Tig] diffusion measurement system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <577E20C0-6CDC-4330-86FF-37312B884FFE@tedlangdell.com> On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Lawrence Towers wrote: > Ted Langdell wrote: > > "Is there a NEED for such an item? (Maybe a better question for the > CML.)" > > Absolutely if one is doing compositing 3-d work and would like to > accurately match environmental lighting > > ---Larry Towers That was among my thoughts when I wrote that. Also in live shooting for CG work where much of the CG environment can be "dialed in." Ted Ted Langdell tedlangdell.com and flashscan8.us From carl at stopp.se Fri Dec 12 00:36:40 2008 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 01:36:40 +0100 Subject: [Tig] yuv vs rgb Message-ID: ------------- "I can't see any compression or crosstalk that will cause any problem. At least not for general TV stuff." Correct. But after you filmout and project it on a 40' screen,you can tell the differences. --------------- Hang on! Not too sure I would see the diference on a 40"! I compared them on my BVM20-video out + GUI monitor. I zoomed in until each pixel was one centimeter wide. And even then I couldn't say witch one was better. I could see a diference, but witch one was better.. beats me. /carl From cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 12 03:14:27 2008 From: cyc2061 at yahoo.co.uk (chi ying chan) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 03:14:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] More bits? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <837848.94908.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "No one using Cineon Log from film-sourced images will complain since the film grain variation is much more significant than variation due to quantization to bits." Me :-( Well from my experience(more than 10 2K project),every time when there's a very high dynamic range shot,10 bit log seems not enough,don't know is it 10 bit log or 2K not enough. Regards Chan Chi YIng DP HK From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 09:08:29 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:08:29 +0200 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: <298BC386-4781-4F88-9D73-F2B05658C792@colorist.org> On Dec 11, 2008, at 10:34 PM, Owen Williams wrote: > > I would say that this result makes sense to me (I do find myself > fixing > that color in men a lot), but I read the article before thinking about > it so I might be projecting. > > Should they have just asked a colorist first before going to all the > trouble of doing a study? :) I think the observations are valid and most colorists learn these differences in such a way that the corrections become instinctive. One could easily write a thesis on the subject. I'd object however to the nomenclature, as in characterizing female fleshtones as 'green;' it's more complicated than that. women are more complicated than that :) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From mario.fuchs at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 09:18:48 2008 From: mario.fuchs at gmail.com (Mario Fuchs) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:18:48 +0100 Subject: [Tig] diffusion measurement system In-Reply-To: <577E20C0-6CDC-4330-86FF-37312B884FFE@tedlangdell.com> References: <577E20C0-6CDC-4330-86FF-37312B884FFE@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: Interesting thread I've used a light prope (large chrome, highly reflective sphere) to capture the environment on numerous shots. Take several stops and combine into an HDR image, and you capture the general "look" regarding lighting. More info here: http://www.debevec.org/ regarding HDR: http://www.debevec.org/Research/HDR/ Are you talking about taking this to a higher level? Regards, Mario Fuchs From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Fri Dec 12 08:27:01 2008 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:27:01 +0100 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> Message-ID: <49422055.2050309@free.fr> > Owen wrote:'I do find myself fixing > that color in men a lot' Well, do you fix them to become girls? One of the pb is also the unevenness of the colour, especially with people known for certain abuse on alcoholic beverages, where you can find stains of yellow from a suffering liver and the exploded blood vessels here and there, that sometimes manage to get thru make up. Thinner grain is also a characteristic of women skin, hence my interest revealed over the years in not only watching it... Cedric pipeline&workflow&softwares www.workflowers.net Suitcase, but Lille, Nord, France at the moment > > Should they have just asked a colorist first before going to all the > trouble of doing a study? :) > > Owen Williams > From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 10:35:35 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:35:35 +0200 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <49422055.2050309@free.fr> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> <49422055.2050309@free.fr> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Cédric Lejeune wrote: > Well, do you fix them to become girls? One of the pb is also the > unevenness of the colour, especially with people known for certain > abuse on alcoholic beverages, where you can find stains of yellow > from a suffering liver and the exploded blood vessels here and there such detail! :) this has also been discussed with respect to the unification of what can be a disturbing tendency in video of a certain splaying, or spattering, of tones as mapped in vectors, such that some characteristics of certain scanners are undesirable, esthetically. see the thread starting at http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2008-August/014085.html Personally, I love the fleshtones as reproduced on interpositive film when scanned on a telecine and graded properly. It can be a difficult film to work with, partly due to its needing significant amounts of blue (which increases noise) in correction, but the results can be beautiful, to my eye anyway. The first time I really noticed this, from a colorist's perspective, was on the telecine transfer and broadcast of the film adaptation of Larry McMurtry's book _Lonesome Dove_, which became as I remember a 3- part TV movie. Most beautiful transfer. (and I believe done at Complete Post Hollywood, maybe Marc Wielage?) reference of earlier TIG thread: http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2003-February/003471.html -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 10:45:35 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:45:35 +0200 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <49422055.2050309@free.fr> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> <49422055.2050309@free.fr> Message-ID: <99D9BAE5-2A3C-4075-8E4F-1E309DBE669B@colorist.org> On Dec 12, 2008, at 10:27 AM, Cédric Lejeune wrote: > Well, do you fix them to become girls? One of the pb is also the > unevenness of the colour, see also Joe Owens' explanation of axes (not as in murders, rather the plural of axis) at http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2008-August/014098.html -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder, colorist rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From mario.fuchs at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 10:56:32 2008 From: mario.fuchs at gmail.com (Mario Fuchs) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:56:32 +0100 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: <55965.75741.qm@web28509.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: File size aspects aside, this made me think of a quote i read somewhere: -"The clients say, 'if 10 bits per channel looks great, then 16 bits must look better. We want all our stuff in 16 bit!' But for what ? They want to pay 8 bit prices." ;) Regards, Mario Fuchs From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Fri Dec 12 11:22:39 2008 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9dric_Lejeune?=) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:22:39 +0100 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <99D9BAE5-2A3C-4075-8E4F-1E309DBE669B@colorist.org> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> <49422055.2050309@free.fr> <99D9BAE5-2A3C-4075-8E4F-1E309DBE669B@colorist.org> Message-ID: <4942497F.30906@free.fr> > see also Joe Owens' explanation of axes (not as in murders, rather the > plural of axis) at > http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2008-August/014098.html Yes, remember this, good one. Stuff we miss currently with RED cam footage I've had to watch yet, no proper white people skintones (I mean reasonably non-californian tan) and no details there... Cedric pipeline&workflow&softwares www.workflowers.net Paris, France today and then back home in Lille From dnakiller at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 12:21:10 2008 From: dnakiller at gmail.com (dnakiller) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:21:10 +0100 Subject: [Tig] natural light In-Reply-To: <979F8441-A878-4B17-AAF8-2D803173233E@colorist.org> References: <4BF70E74-6456-4AB0-AED2-DCAA08D1B835@colorist.org> <798d1bd30812110655h3a58cb97mb5b396539db968f6@mail.gmail.com> <979F8441-A878-4B17-AAF8-2D803173233E@colorist.org> Message-ID: <798d1bd30812120421m5d6ce93ag573a67a1fb8e1609@mail.gmail.com> Hi Gabriele, welcome to the TIG. I hope it serves your interests > professionally. > > Is the air pollution in Rome a brown, sepia, or gray color? > > Thank you Rob. Yes, TIG is my first, professional chance to share experience and technical informations with other people about our work in this wide open way, in a "many-to-many communication". I read lots of blogs, the stu's one is a really good example. This is an other, nice and useful tool. Air pollution in Rome? Good question... It dipends... the picture in my head of the pollution on top of Rome, is a landscape seen from hills outside the city. Definetly gray on the day, particularly interesting in gray, rainy days when all looks deep and extremely misty. Beautiful at night when artificial warm and cold lights blends together and the pollution top became a graded shape of colours from city to the night sky. I think the interesting question is: how a standard definition as "day light" varies around the world. This question is not important because we can measure that temp and correct it; it is important, to achieve the ability to forget it and knowing what it should be we achieve the ability to return the feeling of being there and live that moment with our eyes, that will always be different to watch in tv or on a cinema screen; but if my work and the dop work is the best, you couldn't see the difference that widely exist. Gabriele From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Dec 12 14:56:37 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:56:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] More bits? In-Reply-To: <837848.94908.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <837848.94908.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2008, chi ying chan wrote: > > "No one using Cineon Log from film-sourced images will complain > since the film grain variation is much more significant than > variation due to quantization to bits." > > Well from my experience(more than 10 2K project),every time when > there's a very high dynamic range shot,10 bit log seems not > enough,don't know is it 10 bit log or 2K not enough. Perhaps not everyone is aware that the density range of DPX is adjustable. Yet another metadata parameter. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bob at bluescreen.com Fri Dec 12 15:58:52 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 07:58:52 -0800 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <4942497F.30906@free.fr> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> <49422055.2050309@free.fr> <99D9BAE5-2A3C-4075-8E4F-1E309DBE669B@colorist.org> <4942497F.30906@free.fr> Message-ID: >Stuff we miss currently with RED cam >footage I've had to watch yet, no proper white people skintones (I mean >reasonably non-californian tan) There's a new series on TNT called Leverage, and it was purportedly shot with REDs. Nice look. Quiet images. Looked decent for shadow detail. High end held up reasonably well during explosions and such. Almost all the fleshtone looked vaguely weird, slightly cold and sallow, even in warm scenes, especially the caucasians. The black people less so. With all the processing that has to be done to RED footage to make the final images, this could have nothing whatever to do with the camera - it could have been an aesthetic choice, or the result of any number of intermediate steps in the post process. For example, I have yet to see a reasonably fast debayering algorithm which doesn't mostly suck. But definitely, unusual flesh tones in the aired master. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 17:37:19 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:37:19 +0200 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> <49422055.2050309@free.fr> <99D9BAE5-2A3C-4075-8E4F-1E309DBE669B@colorist.org> <4942497F.30906@free.fr> Message-ID: <13E55D77-31CB-4CD2-BC36-C44A2FF64695@colorist.org> On Dec 12, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > But definitely, unusual flesh tones in the aired master. you make a good point about flesh tones (and I'm extending the analysis a little) being a matter of choice, mostly esthetic, but also culturally influenced. The TV commercials I've worked on lately also have an associated print campaign. I saw this 'print' campaign today as a poster, backlit, on a freestanding display like we have here in Kiev. (incidentally, there is a specific term for these backlit displays? and also, backlit posters, can they sometimes be associated with subtractive as well as additive color principles?) .. the freestanding backlit display ad was graded or printed with quite normal flesh tones while what we did for TV was very sallow, in order to make the talent look like a futuristic paleface of Star Trek. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Dec 12 17:56:20 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:56:20 -0700 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: <13E55D77-31CB-4CD2-BC36-C44A2FF64695@colorist.org> References: <1229027665.4231.1272.camel@ywwg> <49422055.2050309@free.fr> <99D9BAE5-2A3C-4075-8E4F-1E309DBE669B@colorist.org> <4942497F.30906@free.fr> <13E55D77-31CB-4CD2-BC36-C44A2FF64695@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0EFCBC51-ADF3-4D78-8E7E-2D214D9F85D5@prestodigital.ca> There is a commercial display in stores now -- can't name the product -- but the caption is "Red, She Said". It s noir-ish composition, the female figure is wearing 50's makeup and hair, and red-towards- magenta dress with matching lipstick. The rest of the image, including flesh tone is cobalt blue. The only time somebody let me do that was to 'alter' a nude composition enough to make it somehow more acceptable for broadcast TV. We made the figures into "Hindu gods", which made sense in the session, somehow. I'm also thinking of the approach taken with Rebecca Romijn in X-Men.... http:// wallpapers.free-review.net/36__X_Men_Rebecca_Romijn.htm (Caveat: not particularly or completely office-friendly image, but.... very nice, and, hey it was in the movie.) Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From lawrence.towers at nyu.edu Fri Dec 12 18:34:02 2008 From: lawrence.towers at nyu.edu (Lawrence Towers) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:34:02 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dynamic range In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "every time when there's a very high dynamic range shot,10 bit log seems not enough,don't know is it 10 bit log or 2K not enough." I think this is another confusion of dynamic range vs dynamic resolution. To make things ridiculously simple: Take the brightest value that can be captured on film and then the darkest. How many bits would we need to describe this digitally? Just one. It all depends on the values assigned to the bit. The only way to determine if 10 bits log is not "enough" is to determine how many discrete values are being missed. I'm not saying they are not. I'm saying that it has to be quantified. Otherwise it could just as well be a transducer issue, or an A to D issue. In other words the wrong values assigned to the bits. ---Larry T From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 20:00:05 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:00:05 +0200 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons Message-ID: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> I just watched for the first time in more years than I'd like to count, the Ed Sullivan show that feature the Beatles' first US TV appearance. There are two points for the TIG: 1) the vidicon-induced negative flare, or black halation on the highlights of Lennon's guitar headstock, are a most worthwhile trip into video look history, and I wonder if this is replicable in any modern FX systems or grading; 2) the Anacin commercial, included as an addendum to the _She Loves You_ .dat available via torrent, is extraordinary. PAIN .. ANXIETY.. PAIN. PAIN. PAIN. DEPRESSION. WATCH, this is PAIN, DEPRESSION, ANXIETY. JUST TAKE TWO ANACIN TABLETS. IN MINUTES HEADACHE IS GONE. So DEPRESSION is GONE. ......etc. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From adelle at laserpacific.com Fri Dec 12 20:52:36 2008 From: adelle at laserpacific.com (Andy Delle) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:52:36 -0800 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons Message-ID: Minor correction, the "vidicon-induced negative flare, or black halation" was an artifact of Image Orthicon tubes, not Vidicon. In that era Vidicons were only used in film chains due to their sub par light sensitivity. Image Orthicons were later replaced by "Plumbicons" in the early 1970s which were Vidicons with lead oxide targets for increased sensitivity. Burn in was such a problem with Image Orthicons that early cameras has orbiting lenses to slowly move the image around the tube face. And a lot of people here may have though Rank invented scan tracking! Sorry, credit goes to RCA. Andy Delle Laser Pacific Media Corp -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:00 PM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. David Keleshian, and CBS TV City support the TIG. Reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== I just watched for the first time in more years than I'd like to count, the Ed Sullivan show that feature the Beatles' first US TV appearance. There are two points for the TIG: 1) the vidicon-induced negative flare, or black halation on the highlights of Lennon's guitar headstock, are a most worthwhile trip into video look history, and I wonder if this is replicable in any modern FX systems or grading; 2) the Anacin commercial, included as an addendum to the _She Loves You_ .dat available via torrent, is extraordinary. PAIN .. ANXIETY.. PAIN. PAIN. PAIN. DEPRESSION. WATCH, this is PAIN, DEPRESSION, ANXIETY. JUST TAKE TWO ANACIN TABLETS. IN MINUTES HEADACHE IS GONE. So DEPRESSION is GONE. ......etc. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1845 - Release Date: 12/12/2008 9:02 AM From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 20:53:34 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:53:34 +0200 Subject: [Tig] semi OT: # of cameras on Ed Sullivan Message-ID: with nothing more interesting to do, I watched in more detail the Beatles' first Ed Sullivan appearance in February, 1964. I mapped out the shots and cameras, and decided there were at least 4 cameras used, perhaps 5, in this live broadcast. If 4 cameras, then the reframing was more complex, but it could have been done. If 5, then easier for the Technical Director, but it was a bravura performance by the crew, and the Technical Director should have received an award. 1 rehearsal only? For Beatles afficionados, I have just _She Loves You_ mapped out for now, which I think was the 2nd tune on the show. For camerawork aficionados, the first 23 seconds are on Camera 1. 4-shot, move to 3- shot, move to 2-shot, move to CU (Paul), pull slightly back for 2-shot stage right (Paul and George). Cut to 3-shot from Camera 2, stage left, first time we see John other than 4-shot wide. etc. etc. (the rest of this I can provide on request). I find it strange that at least on this tune, there was only 1 CU of John. Definitely under-represented he was. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 21:03:12 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 23:03:12 +0200 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2008, at 10:52 PM, Andy Delle wrote: > Minor correction, the "vidicon-induced negative flare, or black > halation" was an artifact of Image Orthicon tubes, not Vidicon. In > that era Vidicons were only used in film chains due to their sub par > light sensitivity. Image Orthicons were later replaced by > "Plumbicons" in the early 1970s which were Vidicons with lead oxide > targets for increased sensitivity. aha. were Image Orthicons really that different from Vidicons? will have to read up on the evolution. > Burn in was such a problem with Image Orthicons that early cameras > has orbiting lenses to slowly move the image around the tube face. > And a lot of people here may have though Rank invented scan > tracking! Sorry, credit goes to RCA. Burn in was so burned into my brain from having worked with Plumbicons that I thought, when first working with Rank Mk IIIs, that perhaps I needed to beam down the CRT if I left the film in the gate. Burn is still, in 2008-9, a problem, if you frequent an ATM. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From jeffkreines at mindspring.com Fri Dec 12 21:09:05 2008 From: jeffkreines at mindspring.com (Jeff Kreines) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:09:05 -0600 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> References: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> Message-ID: Rob: That's a standard and lovely artifact of Image Orthicon tubes -- vidicons were not really "broadcast" tubes in that era, except in cameras like the Creepie Peepie/Handy Lookies used for early political convention coverage et al. You probably could find a way to take the highlights between a certain range and invert their polarity, but it would never have the cool analog feel of a real IO tube. Note that they apparently were once nicknamed IMMYs -- and that's supposedly where the name of the EMMY award comes from. Jeff "has an actual Sylvania Award, a parallel universe EMMY, from 1959, that I got on eBay" Kreines > 1) the vidicon-induced negative flare, or black halation on the > highlights of Lennon's > guitar headstock, are a most worthwhile trip into video look history, > and I wonder if > this is replicable in any modern FX systems or grading;> From adelle at laserpacific.com Fri Dec 12 21:12:43 2008 From: adelle at laserpacific.com (Andy Delle) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:12:43 -0800 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons Message-ID: <5e805a09-53c0-4adb-99f1-31b80a318631@laserpacific.com> Big differences, no pun intended! There were 3.5 and 4 inch Image Orthicons. They basically had photo multipliers built in so the video signal was formed very similar to an old MK3 front end. Plumbicons were electrically and physically identical to Vidicons except for the target material. The target formed a raster of capacitors which were discharged by the electron beam - very simple compared to the Image Orthicon. Here's a great site I found. http://www.oldradio.com/archives/hardware/TV/RCA-TV.htm From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 21:17:26 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 23:17:26 +0200 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: References: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Jeff Kreines wrote: > Rob: > > That's a standard and lovely artifact of Image Orthicon tubes so are IMMYs available in the modern age anywhere? I seem to remember (and you'd know the answer Jeff) a camera much sought-after by a certain generation of Directors in LA, that was made by Fisher- Price, and it had some kind of simple yet unreproducible quality... -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 21:20:40 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 23:20:40 +0200 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: <5e805a09-53c0-4adb-99f1-31b80a318631@laserpacific.com> References: <5e805a09-53c0-4adb-99f1-31b80a318631@laserpacific.com> Message-ID: <0F99723B-E81E-4D95-95FB-693E5DEF9CFD@colorist.org> On Dec 12, 2008, at 11:12 PM, Andy Delle wrote: > that I thought, when first working with Rank Mk IIIs, that perhaps I > needed to beam down the CRT if I left the film in the gate. advisory: if you are working with a Mk III, and you're zoomed in at the point near where the scan becomes collapsed, beam down, or pull back! -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From kirk at smoke-mirrors.com Fri Dec 12 21:25:13 2008 From: kirk at smoke-mirrors.com (Kirk Balden) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:25:13 -0500 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: References: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> Message-ID: <88B3C093-A3B3-4EDD-AA4C-61F2C22B69FA@smoke-mirrors.com> Ahh, the Fisher Price Pixelvision! It recorded video on standard audio cassettes and originally sold for $100. We had several weeks devoted to various works created with this thing in the Video Art class I took in film school. Most sessions ended with our professor admonishing us to snap it up if we ever see one at a yard sale... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL-2000 kirk balden smoke&mirrorsNY (inaugural post to the TIG. hello) From Rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 21:32:05 2008 From: Rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 23:32:05 +0200 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: <88B3C093-A3B3-4EDD-AA4C-61F2C22B69FA@smoke-mirrors.com> References: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> <88B3C093-A3B3-4EDD-AA4C-61F2C22B69FA@smoke-mirrors.com> Message-ID: <8AD9705C-45DF-45FF-9784-267580BEA9FF@colorist.org> On Dec 12, 2008, at 11:25 PM, Kirk Balden wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PXL-2000 "Oddly, simulating the PXL's simple hybrid design turns out to be quite difficult. Indeed, getting the cassette deck distortion just right has proven to be an extremely complex problem." (the above from your wiki reference Kirk) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From bob at bluescreen.com Fri Dec 12 21:37:59 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:37:59 -0800 Subject: [Tig] semi OT: # of cameras on Ed Sullivan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5bm5k4tfuov8pmm4q4ifaa8tq5h2l5k7oq@4ax.com> >I find it strange that at least on this tune, there was only 1 CU of >John. Definitely under-represented he was. They considered John to be the "rebel" of the group, and were concerned he would make a lewd gesture or mouth some obscenity on a live show. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Dec 12 21:46:49 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:46:49 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Orthicon bloom In-Reply-To: References: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0E7E1AB7-49FF-4914-8B53-1E5F62052D08@prestodigital.ca> Okay, okay. I'm being urged to open some discussion on recreating this effect. I've got some fondness for the look myself, and often called upon to come up with vintage effects to slip into historical docs. More grading applications are coming along now that have an "FX" partition (I also mistyped that last word as parton -- a visual effect herself) so maybe grading is not simply all about RGB anymore. Personally, I started out editing, then took some detours and got into VFX, then out, then into the telecine colorist thing for awhile and now a blend of all of those and maybe that's a good thing the way its going... So, the orthicon look recipe. Its a black halo around the brightest areas of the picture. In Apple COLOR, one would proceed to the COLORFX room, pull down an HSL matte and pick out an appropriate amount of the upper luminance. SHAKE-like, add a node for blur, spread it around. Make this monochrome. Create a blend node (preferably Graeme Nattress' plugin so that you can play around with various modes) or pull in a stock alpha blend node and attach the alpha matte appropriately. Create a black (or any matte shade that seems fun) color source and attach that to the blend node as a foreground. Salt and pepper to taste. Goes well with a $2.50 Chablis... well in the '60s anyway. This is pretty much the template for doing most of the 'diffusion' type effects in that software corrector. How about an approach in Lustre or Baselight or other? Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 12 22:33:07 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 00:33:07 +0200 Subject: [Tig] semi OT: # of cameras on Ed Sullivan In-Reply-To: <5bm5k4tfuov8pmm4q4ifaa8tq5h2l5k7oq@4ax.com> References: <5bm5k4tfuov8pmm4q4ifaa8tq5h2l5k7oq@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2008, at 11:37 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > They considered John to be the "rebel" of the group, and were > concerned he > would make a lewd gesture or mouth some obscenity on a live show. considering the work that was done on the Director's part, that the Technical Direction was so impressive, and the camera work, .. but your comment makes sense. this was the era when Elvis' hip pumps were considered obscene. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From mfw at musictrax.com Fri Dec 12 23:02:44 2008 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:02:44 -0800 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/12/08 2:35 AM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > was on the telecine transfer and broadcast of the film adaptation of > Larry McMurtry's book _Lonesome Dove_, which became as I remember a 3- > part TV movie. Most beautiful transfer. (and I believe done at > Complete Post Hollywood, maybe Marc Wielage?) >------------------------------------------------------------< I think I did one of the follow-up M.O.W's, but not the original, unfortunately. I remember it only because I convinced the producer to have the lab reprint a half-dozen of the reels 4 points brighter -- back in the day of transferring from low-con print -- and it saved the show. Without that, we would've had night scenes at 10 units (barely). --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From kirk at smoke-mirrors.com Fri Dec 12 23:04:50 2008 From: kirk at smoke-mirrors.com (Kirk Balden) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:04:50 -0500 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: <8AD9705C-45DF-45FF-9784-267580BEA9FF@colorist.org> References: <588D1924-9B63-4CBC-8FF1-454D21AD01FA@colorist.org> <88B3C093-A3B3-4EDD-AA4C-61F2C22B69FA@smoke-mirrors.com> <8AD9705C-45DF-45FF-9784-267580BEA9FF@colorist.org> Message-ID: <4AF0848C-4701-4247-9D9E-B8BA03F233E5@smoke-mirrors.com> > "Oddly, simulating the PXL's simple hybrid design turns out to be > quite difficult. Indeed, getting the cassette deck distortion just > right has proven to be an extremely complex problem." I'd concur with that, and expand it to analog artifacts of any kind. Screwing up an image is pretty easy, as is degrading it to look analog, lo-fi, or (to use my least favorite word ever) "organic". Accurately matching the characteristics of things like Pixelvision, security camera footage, VHS, or kinescope is surprisingly tough. Speed Six makes a nice TV plugin that, if tweaked endlessly and stacked upon itself, can get you pretty close. That said, to get that serendipitous combination of low resolution, scanline crawl, drop out, and intriguing color changes, most of the time we just lay the shot off to VHS a few times. I can definitely see a reason to keep those decks around for a while longer for just that purpose. I think a good-condition secondhand VHS deck is actually cheaper, including installation and maintenance than SpeedSix_TV anyway... Though maintaining it might actually defeat the purpose of owning it at this point. (I guess now would be a good time to say that I have no affiliation with Speed Six or any consumer tape deck manufacturers). kirk smoke&mirrorsNY From mfw at musictrax.com Fri Dec 12 23:27:25 2008 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:27:25 -0800 Subject: [Tig] semi OT: # of cameras on Ed Sullivan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/12/08 12:53 PM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > I mapped out > the shots and cameras, and decided there were at least 4 cameras used, > perhaps 5, in this live broadcast. If 4 cameras, then the reframing > was more complex, but it could have been done. >------------------------------------------------------------< My memory is that the SULLIVAN show normally used just four Marconi B&W image orthicon cameras (one on a small crane, three on standard pedestals), but they used a fifth camera (I think a Norelco) as a B&W handheld on a couple of audience shots. The handheld was a last-minute addition, possibly the decision of director Tim Kiley. SULLIVAN went color in 1965, using Norelco PC-60 plumbicon cameras. I knew all this stuff when I was 10, watching the show on CBS, but I was TV-crazy even back then. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From ted at tedlangdell.com Sat Dec 13 00:10:35 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:10:35 -0800 Subject: [Tig] early commercials and vidicons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CD719D2-1279-41F1-BFB4-6F61188BF668@tedlangdell.com> On Dec 12, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Andy Delle wrote: > Burn in was such a problem with Image Orthicons that early cameras > has orbiting lenses to slowly move the image around the tube face. > And a lot of people here may have though Rank invented scan > tracking! Sorry, credit goes to RCA. > > Andy Delle > Laser Pacific Media Corp The halo was actually beneficial in some instances as it created a sharpening effect, much like image enhancement circuits used in modern video gear. IIRC, they actually "orbited" the scan electronically around the faceplate of the tube, rather than doing anything mechanical, at least in the cameras I'm aware of. Some Plasma screens also orbit the image in order to lessen burn-in. Here's a link to Wikipedia's camera tube page, which describes the various tubes used for imaging. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_camera_tube There's a comprehensive description of the IO. And here's a similarly descriptive poop-sheet from RCA on its 5820 3" IO used in the classic TK-11 camera: http://www.snugglebunny.us/pdf/5820.pdf The same site has more info about various imaging tubes: http://www.snugglebunny.us Scroll down to "Broadcast Camera tube data sheets..." The development of the IO received federal funding during WW II, and was used for war-related cameras. If you Google "Image Orthicon Tube" you'll find it was used for a variety of interesting things... including the observation of asteroids and the former planet called Pluto... and IO cameras were used to track Saturn rockets and astronauts into orbit long after networks had shifted to Plumbicon cameras, because the IO's were sharper. If you ever run across an IO tube... KEEP THE TARGET (faceplate) UP during storage. Sr. Video Engineer and camera collector Chuck Pharris (http://www.pharis-video.com ) explained this to me after I'd run across a whole BOX of IO's at an Ohio TV station that never threw things out. Alas, they were on their sides at one time or another. IIRC, it has to do with keeping debris from falling into the target. Not a good thing as krap on the target created spots on the image. Here's a scanned page sent with RCA IO's... noting that you should be able to get at least 500 lines of resolution at the center of a RETMA chart: http://www.snugglebunny.us/pdf/orthcare.pdf IO done. Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From chuntz2802 at rogers.com Sat Dec 13 02:52:30 2008 From: chuntz2802 at rogers.com (chuntz2802 at rogers.com) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Tig] noise reducers Message-ID: <31117.76992.qm@web88307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I would love some feedback from users who are using Non linear systems , such as , Pablo, Lustre, baselight etc.... etc.. what Noise reducer plug ins are you using , what works well , how fast are they.. please advise Thanks Gary Chuntz From dnakiller at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 16:27:36 2008 From: dnakiller at gmail.com (dnakiller) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:27:36 +0100 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <31117.76992.qm@web88307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <31117.76992.qm@web88307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <798d1bd30812130827o3ace63efh14dcc34edab96a0d@mail.gmail.com> Actually I'm not using any (on Pablo)... and I'm wondering the same thing... Gabriele On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 3:52 AM, wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > I would love some feedback from users who are using Non linear systems , > such as , Pablo, Lustre, baselight etc.... etc.. > > what Noise reducer plug ins are you using , what works well , how fast are > they.. > > please advise > > Thanks Gary Chuntz > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > -- G From ahauser at bigair.com.au Sat Dec 13 21:50:08 2008 From: ahauser at bigair.com.au (adrian hauser) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:50:08 +1100 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <798d1bd30812130827o3ace63efh14dcc34edab96a0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <31117.76992.qm@web88307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <798d1bd30812130827o3ace63efh14dcc34edab96a0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D31B0AF-FE86-49AC-9BB5-98C65DB47D03@bigair.com.au> Hi Woz, what did you come up with regarding your noise reducer thread from a week or so ago? Ive been testing the built in temporal noise/grain reduction in Baselight. Its actually really very good, works over handles, can be isolated within a mask or matte or key. I sound surprised because on first inspection I couldn't make the settings work for me very well but after a day of testing I came up with some Very favorable results. I am waiting for some Furnace and PFClean Demo's to compare workflows, speed and results. Adrian Cutting Edge EQ Sydney. From craig at optimus.com Sat Dec 13 22:13:21 2008 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:13:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <1024662703.135541229206336893.JavaMail.root@mx.optimus.com> Message-ID: <625587019.135561229206401679.JavaMail.root@mx.optimus.com> ----- Original Message ---- Hi Woz, what did you come up with regarding your noise reducer thread from a week or so ago? Ive been testing the built in temporal noise/grain reduction in Baselight. Its actually really very good I can report that the Temporal Dgrain works fairly well in Baselight as well.... They've just made some mods in a new version, and I am anxious to try it out. I've also been doing some work with Foundry in Baselight, and the are some good results there with De-grain / Re-grain... though there is a performance hit. I like the Genarts plugins quite a bit for Baselight as well, and there are some degrain options there as well. The plugins are CPU dependent, and I believe the native Temporal Degrain will be benefitted by the GPU processing. To avoid processing / render issues - When I have a job in particular need of degrain - I often render first, and degrain just the rendered scenes, as we've seen significant speed enhancement doing it this way rather than rendering the degrain as part of the stack... When plugins can become GPU based, we will all be much happier. Any word on whether the Digital Vision folks are going to start selling their software NR as a plugin? My guess is they will, or someone will soon.... Enjoy all - Craig Leffel Baselight 8 user Resident pain in the ass From carl at stopp.se Sun Dec 14 11:34:41 2008 From: carl at stopp.se (Carl Skaff) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:34:41 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Tig Digest, Vol 109, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I would love some feedback from users who are using Non linear systems , > such as , Pablo, Lustre, baselight etc.... etc.. > > what Noise reducer plug ins are you using , what works well , how fast are > they.. > > please advise > > Thanks Gary Chuntz I'm using a Resolve, we alo have a Revival but it's not setup to work together yet...anyone out there using that in a smooth way together? Although we just bought a Grace for our Spirit/2K+. And we have two workaround to get that into Resove: 1) Conect the NVidia "Timeline output" to Grace, play Timeline, play around on the Grace PC-GUI. verry coarse in controlls without any knobs. 2) Conect the NVidia out to Grace, look at Grace out in the Spirit/2K+, set up Grace by controlling it from the 2K+. When all setup, change so the DVS-output goes to Grace and then to the VTR, (doesn't work if you want to deliver DPX's unless you record and then ingest again) And this is a one-setting-for-whole-project workaround. Not a good way to do scen-by-scen settings, unless you change presets on Grace during recording on the fly! Done that to. /carl Carl Skaff _____________________ Head of Telecine Stockholm Postproduction www.stopp.se phone: +46 8 50 70 35 00 fax: +46 8 32 77 22 From glennchan at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 22:49:56 2008 From: glennchan at gmail.com (glenn chan) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:49:56 -0500 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV Message-ID: There is absolutely a visible difference between 4:4:4 and (the various flavours of) 4:2:2, though most of the time you won't run into the situations where you can see a difference. You see the difference when dealing with highly-saturated colors. Because the real world tends to have very few highly-saturated colors, we usually do not run into problems. But there are times when graphic artists like to put red text on a black background, or the set may contain red LEDs, lasers, lights, etc. In these situations, the use of chroma subsampling causes visibly noticeable artifacts as a red object on a black background will have a slightly blurry edge. More information here: http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/chroma/chroma1.htm The short gist of it is that chroma subsampling can cause major differences in the luminance of the displayed pixels, for two different reasons. *These effects may be difficult to spot on a CRT. This is partly because the CRT's 'pixels' are 'drawn' with a blurry spot, so its pixel equivalent has blurry edges (unlike a LCD, which has well defined edges for its pixels). And I believe it is partly due to the way human vision works- we don't notice it when color is blurry (except where there is no luminance transition). At very high bitrates, chroma subsampling is a terrible method for reducing bandwidth. It is better to go with higher DCT compression (or wavelet, etc. etc.). Chroma subsampling (done well) also suffers from generation loss if the image needs to be converted to 4:4:4 for signal processing and back. 2- In practice, I don't think that these issues are a big deal. The show Lazytown (a greenscreen / virtual set show) no longer does its keying from 4:4:4 DPXes, but switched over to Avid's DNxHD codec (4:2:2 with DCT compression on top of that) for workflow reasons (this is according to the Avid website). While I do not believe that their compression is the most efficient codec around, it is certainly good enough for practical purposes and can definitely be useful. Not all compression is not evil. Glenn Chan www.colormancer.com Toronto, Canada From info at framediscreet.com Mon Dec 15 06:30:15 2008 From: info at framediscreet.com (Justin - Frame Discreet) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:30:15 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Noise Reducers Message-ID: <001801c95e7e$98c5a630$c600a8c0@frameother> Curious if anyone is using the TERANEX Image Enhance or Image Restore (dust/dirt/scratch removal) tools. Thanks Justin Lovell Toronto, Ontario Cinematographer/colorist framediscreet.com From pacoul at wanadoo.fr Mon Dec 15 08:57:21 2008 From: pacoul at wanadoo.fr (Pascal NOWAK) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:57:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: [Tig] noise reducers Message-ID: <7869350.106598.1229331441529.JavaMail.www@wwinf2208> And I would love to know if anyone has ever succeed to get acceptable result with the internal NR Lustre plug-ins... Great topic actually. > Message du 13/12/08 15:28 > De : chuntz2802 at rogers.com > A : tig at colorist.org > Copie à : > Objet : [Tig] noise reducers > > > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > I would love some feedback from users who are using Non linear systems , such as , Pablo, Lustre, baselight etc.... etc.. > > what Noise reducer plug ins are you using , what works well , how fast are they.. > > please advise > > Thanks Gary Chuntz > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 > > From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 15 09:22:59 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:22:59 +0200 Subject: [Tig] currently in the TIG classifieds Message-ID: <70757708-DB57-42BD-8A29-D770BC454D25@colorist.org> current ads in the TIG classifieds at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds Available: *Warren Eagles, Freelance Colorist/Trainer available Worldwide. *Stuart Blake Jones - Freelance Colorist-Consultant-Instructor-Writer *Colorist available *Colorist available NEW POSTING: *Spirit 4K / daVinci 2K Plus *CP100 control surface panel for sale. The unit is in a mint condition. *Filmline 75ft./min. 35mm / 16mm ECP print Processor Shaft Drive *Cintel Rascal and DaVinci 2k *TTR 4x1 portable HD-SDI router available for sale. *JL Cooper MCs Spectrum Colorist Station Wanted: *Senior Colorist, Zurich Switzerland -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From jdhouston at earthlink.net Mon Dec 15 15:03:44 2008 From: jdhouston at earthlink.net (Jim Houston) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:03:44 -0800 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <7869350.106598.1229331441529.JavaMail.www@wwinf2208> References: <7869350.106598.1229331441529.JavaMail.www@wwinf2208> Message-ID: <56D9A460-8A9A-4FEE-AFA1-28F02FAE400B@earthlink.net> I've tried the Lustre plug-ins, and think they have limited use because they appear to be spatial single-frames only. You get a much better result from motion-compensated temporal noise reducers. Jim Houston Starwatcher Digital From cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net Mon Dec 15 16:05:18 2008 From: cedric.lejeune at workflowers.net (Cedric Lejeune) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:05:18 +0100 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <56D9A460-8A9A-4FEE-AFA1-28F02FAE400B@earthlink.net> References: <7869350.106598.1229331441529.JavaMail.www@wwinf2208> <56D9A460-8A9A-4FEE-AFA1-28F02FAE400B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4946803E.9030103@free.fr> I believe you can get good results even without time analysis, like the Grain Surgery ones. (not affiliated, etc.) Cedric Lejeune www.workflowers.net pipeline&workflows La Madeleine, France From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Mon Dec 15 17:25:25 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:25:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, glenn chan wrote: > situations where you can see a difference. You see the difference when > dealing with highly-saturated colors. Because the real world tends to have > very few highly-saturated colors, we usually do not run into problems. But It is true that the real world (at least the Canadian part) offers very few highly-saturated colors. However, I notice that quite a bit of TV programming now uses maximally-saturated colors. I see a lot of use of red, white, and blue. CNN and ESPN are an excellent example of this. Sports programming is also grossly saturated. Apparently sports fans prefer the images to look hugely saturated and artificial. Recent TVs are now advertised with a "dynamic contrast ratio" of up to a million to one. This is quite different than the "ANSI" contrast ratio which tests the simultaneous capability. The notion of a "dynamic contrast ratio" is based on the ability to lower the overall brightness (e.g. close the iris or dim the backlight) to better portray the image within the actual dynamic range of the modulating device. Grossly saturated colors tend to defeat the dynamic ranging ability of these new TVs. The grossly saturated colors are often used in the program banner at the bottom of the screen, or in the station "bug" image. The problem is that this artificial material which was added to the image defeats the TV's ability to portray the real-world part of the content correctly. The artificial material also defeats the human eye so that it would not be possible to completely see the real-world content even if the TV really could support the full dynamic range. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From terry at finishedit.com Mon Dec 15 17:07:47 2008 From: terry at finishedit.com (Terry Lockhart) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:07:47 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones Message-ID: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Ran across this report finding that women tend to the green, while men go red. Thought it would be pertinent to the thread of a few digests back. Men are red, women are green, researcher finds Test subjects tended to confirm subtle color differences associated with gender. Even when viewing pixelated or distorted images, subjects identified redder images as male and greener images as female. Credit: Michael J. Tarr/Brown University http://www.physorg.com/news147955343.html -- Terry Lockhart Chief Engineer/IT manager Finish Editorial 162 Columbus Ave. Boston, Ma 02116-5222 direct/vm 617 850 6133 main 617 292 0082 or 850 6100 fax 617 292 0083 cel 617 775 3195 I'm beginning to understand myself. But it would have been great to be able to understand myself when I was 20 rather than when I was 82." --Dave Brubeck, American jazz pianist From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 15 19:44:42 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:44:42 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: <6E1442A9-86F9-49AD-B927-B89799FA7F76@colorist.org> On Dec 15, 2008, at 7:07 PM, Terry Lockhart wrote: > Ran across this report finding that women tend to the green, while > men go red. Thought it would be pertinent to the thread of a few > digests back. Hi Terry, in fact that was the reference that started the thread:) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 15 20:01:42 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:01:42 +0200 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42737832-0E86-437C-813D-E91951AE26DB@colorist.org> On Dec 15, 2008, at 7:25 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > Grossly saturated colors tend to defeat the dynamic ranging > ability of these new TVs. The grossly saturated colors are often > used in the program banner at the bottom of the screen, or in the > station "bug" image. The problem is that this artificial material > which was added to the image defeats the TV's ability to portray the > real-world part of the content correctly. Back in the days of analog AGC, on some darker filmed material departing telecine, we would insert, at the very edge of left raster, a vertical bar at 100 IRE that was meant to trick the AGC on consumer receivers into staying dark. Grossly saturated colors tire the eye out, I can say from experience. After a very long day of such material, I get relief if not from sleep, from reading a book. I wish the computer on which I spend all too much time at home had sufficient dynamic range for a brightness much lower than what it demands. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG founder/admin rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From delaneydoug at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 20:07:49 2008 From: delaneydoug at gmail.com (Doug Delaney) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:07:49 -0800 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers Message-ID: <78de4d3a0812151207m558327bes1e7b41ef95f20ffc@mail.gmail.com> ...in Baselight, and the are some good results there with De-grain / > Re-grain... though there is a performance hit.... Performance hit to say the least... as OFX plugins can't leverage the power of the parallel file system (PFS) which gives the Baselight8 it's punch. Renders become painfully slow. > The plugins are CPU dependent, and I believe the native Temporal Degrain > will be benefitted by the GPU processing. > I believe that all image process layers that Filmlight has written for the Baselight has been ported to GPU, including Temporal Degrain. VERY much looking forward to the release of that. I did a demo of it at Filmlight LA several months ago with 20 stacks on 4k material rocking at 24fps. It's close. I often render first, and degrain just the rendered scenes, as we've seen > significant speed enhancement doing it this way rather than rendering the > degrain as part of the stack... Craig, do you see any change in color (low-level contrast, for example) when using degrain? I admit I haven't used it that much myself. Curious of your (or anyone else) experience. Cheers, Doug Delaney colorist Post Logic/ LA From craig at optimus.com Mon Dec 15 20:32:26 2008 From: craig at optimus.com (Craig Leffel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:32:26 -0600 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <78de4d3a0812151207m558327bes1e7b41ef95f20ffc@mail.gmail.com> References: <78de4d3a0812151207m558327bes1e7b41ef95f20ffc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4946BEDA.3060400@optimus.com> Doug Delaney wrote: > Craig, do you see any change in color (low-level contrast, for example) when > using degrain? I admit I haven't used it that much myself. Curious of your > (or anyone else) experience. > Can't say that I have actually seen a color shift.... but I am prone to believing what I believe and not what I see... it's a genetic disorder. I think what I have seen in the dark areas of picture - is Blending and Smearing of grain which reduces the amount of (for instance) various colored grain particles - particularly in Blue. When midtones and contrast are manipulated to show apparent detail, so comes the various colors of grain... right? When we reduce noise or grain ( in particular ) my thought is that the averaging removes some of these individual grain colors and what we see has an overall "greyness" to it. So much for facts. Those are my rambling observations, and I'm stickin' to em'. Maybe I should have said Yes..... Good luck out there - Craig Leffel From jpo at prestodigital.ca Mon Dec 15 21:26:48 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:26:48 -0700 Subject: [Tig] HDSR RGB vs YUV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15-Dec-08, at 10:25 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > The problem is that this artificial material which was added to the > image defeats the TV's ability to portray the real-world part of > the content correctly. The artificial material also defeats the > human eye so that it would not be possible to completely see the > real-world content even if the TV really could support the full > dynamic range. And nobody has a problem with building scopes into grade monitors? And in fact thinks that's a great idea? Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From mario.fuchs at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 21:43:15 2008 From: mario.fuchs at gmail.com (Mario Fuchs) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:43:15 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: This is partly the opposite of my own experience, coming from the Make Up FX/Animatronic Props side of things. Males tend to have a slight greenish tint in the hairy parts of the face, due to sub surface scattering in combination with the shaved hair. /Mario Fuchs Nordisk Film Post Production 2008/12/15 Terry Lockhart : > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > Ran across this report finding that women tend to the green, while men go > red. Thought it would be pertinent to the thread of a few digests back. From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 15 21:55:24 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:55:24 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: On Dec 15, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Mario Fuchs wrote: > Males tend to have a slight greenish tint in the hairy parts of the > face, due to sub surface scattering in combination with the shaved > hair. I've seen the same thing, never knew it was due to sub surface scattering, though perhaps we could get a definition of that Mario.. it seems to happen in the blacks, (meaning the dark ranges of the image) so I think it can happen along with the magenta-tending male flesh tone. And these are generalizations.. I have always wondered about that green five-o'clock shadow. [sub surface scattering: too tired tonight to attempt deciphering or playing with that possibly navel-dermatological term] -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html From delaneydoug at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 22:32:45 2008 From: delaneydoug at gmail.com (Doug Delaney) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:32:45 -0800 Subject: [Tig] noise reducers In-Reply-To: <61E9753F-2E2A-4F76-B7AB-B3253064BB5A@mac.com> References: <78de4d3a0812151207m558327bes1e7b41ef95f20ffc@mail.gmail.com> <61E9753F-2E2A-4F76-B7AB-B3253064BB5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <78de4d3a0812151432o40d48771q2e9c61b76965a1e6@mail.gmail.com> > If you have a slightly under exposed neg, which you are stretching (do you > have such things in LA?) Never. Every frame of every film I've colored is exposed perfectly:) Doug Delaney colorist Post Logic/LA From mario.fuchs at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 22:09:00 2008 From: mario.fuchs at gmail.com (Mario Fuchs) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:09:00 +0100 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the 3D lingo. Didn't quite find any other way to describe what is going on with the slightly translucent skin interacting with hair when the light hits the surface. We all observe the real world from our respective disciplines, the interesting point is that I think we all see it, and have our different ways of interpreting our findings. Artists moulding silicone fat masks/age masks go to great lengths to re-create what the human eye expects to see (greenish tint in male faces), while grading artists see the same thing and try to remedy it. >From Wikipedia: "Subsurface scattering (or SSS) is a mechanism of light transport in which light penetrates the surface of a translucent object, is scattered by interacting with the material, and exits the surface at a different point. The light will generally penetrate the surface and be reflected a number of times at irregular angles inside the material, before passing back out of the material at an angle other than the angle it would reflect at had it reflected directly off the surface. Subsurface scattering is important in 3D computer graphics, being necessary for the realistic rendering of materials such as marble, skin, and milk." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsurface_scattering /Mario Fuchs 2008/12/15 Rob Lingelbach : > > On Dec 15, 2008, at 11:43 PM, Mario Fuchs wrote: > >> Males tend to have a slight greenish tint in the hairy parts of the >> face, due to sub surface scattering in combination with the shaved >> hair. > > I've seen the same thing, never knew it was due to sub surface scattering, > though perhaps > we could get a definition of that Mario.. it seems to happen in the > blacks, (meaning the > dark ranges of the image) so I think it can happen along with the > magenta-tending male > flesh tone. And these are generalizations.. I have always wondered about > that green > five-o'clock shadow. > > [sub surface scattering: too tired tonight to attempt deciphering or playing > with that > possibly navel-dermatological term] > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/robhome.html > > > > > > From bob at bluescreen.com Tue Dec 16 01:28:36 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:28:36 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: >Males tend to have a slight greenish tint in the hairy parts of the >face, due to sub surface scattering in combination with the shaved hair. I'm not sure why it's the case, but I agree. I always have to do a little more flare suppression when greenscreening males, especially in the afternoon as the "5 o'clock shadow" makes its way to the surface. It then gets to be a balancing act if there is also a female in the shot who is blonde, since increasing flare suppression tends to make blondes (especially blondes from a bottle, ESPECIALLY a cheap bottle) go strawberry blonde very quickly. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From somearsehole at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 17:54:24 2008 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:54:24 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: at the risk of being too low-brow and perhaps derailing this thread - i have just seen an episode of 'family guy' and guess what? females are green (comparatively) and males are red.. From somearsehole at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 17:55:22 2008 From: somearsehole at hotmail.com (Matt W-J) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:55:22 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Men vs women facial tones In-Reply-To: References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: ...then i watched 'the simpsons' and the whole theory fell apart.... From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Tue Dec 16 19:36:25 2008 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:36:25 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [Tig] Color shift when degraining Message-ID: <43576.10.44.0.4.1229456185.squirrel@alto.filmlight.ltd.uk> Hi. A degrainer usually relies on some grain model. Grain noise is typically high frequency, not correlated in either dimension, not correlated with adjacent frames, and so on. Image detail is often continuous in one dimension, and replicated on adjacent frames, though this can take a bit of finding. The right place for any degrainer is at the top of the stack so it is working on the raw image data. If it goes further down the stack then its performance may be hampered by other interpolations, colour shifts, and so forth. Some workflows put the degrain right at the bottom of the stack. This is not just people being awkward - it can seem like the right thing to do at the time. You take an image, and solve the grosser problems, tweak the colors, drop in a few matted colour shifts, and eventually, when you are really used to looking at the image, you may think "hang on- some of this texture is noise - we could do something about that". So, in goes the degraining, under everything else. And, if you get a colour shift, then you have to correct for it. Before anyone panics, I haven't seen any considerable colour shifts. I have seen some small shifts in some very underexposed images. Oh, and some stock that had been interlaced before the degraining with some even-odd brightness shift, but you won't be doing that I hope. * Underexposed images The dominant shift has been away from blue in the shadows. If the film is underexposed, the yellow dye on a fast film can be very blotchy, which gives you the little, blue dancing 'fireflies' in the shadows. There was no structure in the original image - just that the yellow dye is not laid down evenly. You don't notice a double helping of yellow, but you do notice a gap. If you can find a degrainer that can cure this (in Baselight, the spatial filter at the bottom of the menu is your best hope if it is really bad) then it is in effect restoring the original neutrality of the shadows. Unfortunately, we also tend to see deep twilight as blue-ish (two effects unrelated to the degrainer) so we may see the original colour as 'right' and the degrained one as 'too neutral'. * Light oranges You cannot easily print a half-toned colour that looks like a light orange. A light orange ought to be a fair amount of yellow with a little bit of magenta in it. Our eyes are poor at seeing detail in the blue/yellow, so it appears as a uniform wash, but we are good at seeing detail in the green/magenta so we tend to see the magenta as a texture. The 'light orange' then appears as a yellow with little dark specks in. Again, the degrainer will redistribute the yellow and the magenta, and may restore the sense of an orange, so some flesh tones may go slightly redder. I am not sure if I have actually see it with a degrainer, but I have seen it in CMYK printing. We could make a degrainer that had no effect on the color, but this would be the color as measured by a spectrometer. At least some of the colour shifts we see are caused by the effects of the different spatial frequencies in our eye-brain system, and we cannot easily correct for those. Anyone else seen any color shifts on degraining? Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44-(0)20-7292-0400 or -0409-224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44-(0)20-7292-0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP, UK From steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk Tue Dec 16 21:31:22 2008 From: steve.roberts at bbc.co.uk (Steve Roberts - Post Production) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:31:22 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Color shift when degraining In-Reply-To: <43576.10.44.0.4.1229456185.squirrel@alto.filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <43576.10.44.0.4.1229456185.squirrel@alto.filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <244E9A3A7711D64DBF9C99CE1DFA9EB004B6BCBD@bbcxue218.national.core.bbc.co.uk> Could this be a similar effect to that which I believe used to be called 'subcarrier rectification'? If you viewed a composite signal on a full-bandwidth monochrome monitor, some high-chroma areas would appear to be brighter than they ought to be. I was taught that this was because the peaks of the chroma were stretched by the gamma of the TV tube whilst the troughs were crushed, resulting in an upwards DC shift of the apparent luminance level. I could imagine a similar but opposite effect if noise was removed from a picture, especially if that noise was more prevalent in certain colours... Steve Roberts | Senior Engineer | BBC Resources Room 3501 | BBC Television Centre | Wood Lane | London | W12 7RJ T: +44 (0)20 857 64556 | F: +44 (0)20 857 61639 http://www.bbcresources.com BBC Resources Limited Registered Number 3593793 England Registered Office: Television Centre, Wood Lane, London W12 7RJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 17 13:46:11 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:46:11 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Colorist Required for Project in 2009 Message-ID: <7BC00EA0-A7BC-4E19-89E6-4C200717BB5C@colorist.org> appearing on the TIG classifieds as of today at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds "Basecamp Films is looking for a colorist to help us with a feature project probably starting in Feb-March 2009. We are seeking someone with at least two years digital grading experience in client attended environments. The job is in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and the person would be working on our Scratch machine which is equipped with two Tangent panels, a projector and Cinespace. Interested people with a current reel should contact me off list. Scott Inglis Basecamp Films Sdn Bhd scott at basecampfilms.com.my " From jmann at postworks.com Wed Dec 17 21:31:29 2008 From: jmann at postworks.com (Jim Mann) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:31:29 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Color Quiz In-Reply-To: References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> Message-ID: <000701c9608e$d2cca7e0$7865f7a0$@com> http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Jim_Mann_senior_colorist_Qiuiz Ok, I tried my hand at this, good luck. I mistyped the word quiz when naming the page, sorry. Question #6..... by all that is good and right should have 2 correct answers but the software only allows one. Merry Christmas, everyone have a safe holiday, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 T 212 894 4000 F 212 941 0439 C 516 250 0909 Telecine Internet Group/Member Page Linkedin Profile http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From mwalker at encorehollywood.com Wed Dec 17 21:26:41 2008 From: mwalker at encorehollywood.com (Michael Walker) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:26:41 -0800 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The original "Lonesome Dove" was done at The Post Group with editing by Corky Ehlers on a CMX6000. And, as a bookend, Corky's assistant on the show, Terry Blythe, was the editor on the prequel, "Comanche Moon." -Mike Walker Encore Hollywood > On 12/12/08 2:35 AM, "Rob Lingelbach" wrote: > >> was on the telecine transfer and broadcast of the film adaptation of >> Larry McMurtry's book _Lonesome Dove_, which became as I remember a 3- >> part TV movie. Most beautiful transfer. (and I believe done at >> Complete Post Hollywood, maybe Marc Wielage?) >> ------------------------------------------------------------< From shukkra at yahoo.in Thu Dec 18 08:44:05 2008 From: shukkra at yahoo.in (Mr Shukkra) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:14:05 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Tig] cintel URSA GOLD telecine servo card diagram Message-ID: <996730.93823.qm@web95102.mail.in2.yahoo.com> Hi everyone Could anybody help to me that for getting circuit or block diagram for the Velocity board for URSA GOLD telecine. The board number is: 102394. It is low speed board fixed in the jumpfree servo. Thanks & regards Shukkra Be the first one to try the new Messenger 9 Beta! Go to http://in.messenger.yahoo.com/win/ From mwalker at encorehollywood.com Thu Dec 18 22:34:18 2008 From: mwalker at encorehollywood.com (Michael Walker) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:34:18 -0800 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and the colorist was Julius Friede who did the dailies and the final. -Mike Walker Encore Hollywood > The original "Lonesome Dove" was done at The Post Group with editing by > Corky Ehlers on a CMX6000. And, as a bookend, Corky's assistant on the show, > Terry Blythe, was the editor on the prequel, "Comanche Moon." > >> was on the telecine transfer and broadcast of the film adaptation of >> Larry McMurtry's book _Lonesome Dove_, which became as I remember a 3- >> part TV movie. Most beautiful transfer. (and I believe done at >> Complete Post Hollywood, maybe Marc Wielage?) From julius4di at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 01:21:16 2008 From: julius4di at gmail.com (Julius Friede) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:21:16 -0800 Subject: [Tig] interesting study: "Gender Recognition of Human Faces Using Color" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A17D62F-7A05-45B4-B1EF-EBD1D4CB35D5@gmail.com> Sorry Mike, although I did do the dailies, I did not do the final correction on Lonesome Dove. I believe that was done at AME, but I could be mistaken on that. Julius On Dec 18, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Michael Walker wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > Oh, and the colorist was Julius Friede who did the dailies and the > final. > > > -Mike Walker > Encore Hollywood > > >> The original "Lonesome Dove" was done at The Post Group with >> editing by >> Corky Ehlers on a CMX6000. And, as a bookend, Corky's assistant on >> the show, >> Terry Blythe, was the editor on the prequel, "Comanche Moon." >> >>> was on the telecine transfer and broadcast of the film adaptation of >>> Larry McMurtry's book _Lonesome Dove_, which became as I remember >>> a 3- >>> part TV movie. Most beautiful transfer. (and I believe done at >>> Complete Post Hollywood, maybe Marc Wielage?) > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 13:13:28 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:13:28 +0200 Subject: [Tig] formula sought Message-ID: if the diagonal screen size of a 4x3 monitor is 20 inches, and I need to find the height and width, there should be a fairly simple formula, correct? it would work on the Pythagorean theorem, but how to plug in the aspect ratio and solve for the two variables, is a bit of a puzzle. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From weagles at bigpond.net.au Fri Dec 19 13:31:15 2008 From: weagles at bigpond.net.au (warren eagles) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:31:15 +1000 Subject: [Tig] re-Noise Redusers Message-ID: <01FFF72E-793B-49AB-A190-D1AD54CE448A@bigpond.net.au> Hi Adrian Here are the products I have had feedback on If there are anymore please add. Teranex "Image Restore" www.teranex.com/products Cintel "Grace" www.cintel.co.uk/ Digital Vision "DVNR" www.digitalvision.se Film Systems "Aurora" www.filmsys.com Hs-Art "Diamant" www.hs-art.com/html/products/diamant.html da-vinci "Revival" www.davsys.com emotionengines "Pure" www.emotionengines.tv The Pixel Farm "PF clean" www.thepixelfarm.co.uk/ Products such as Lustre, Mistika, Baselight, Filmaster and Apple "Color" have NR/software type plug ins. Resolve can share a database with Revival. When testing grain reduction systems and noise reduction systems try and pick different types of material, both film and digital images I usually make sure the camera is locked off on a shot with a neutral wall in the background. A CU face in the foreground is ideal. The longer the shot the better. I also look for a shot with lots of edges and detail so I can judge if the GR is softening the Images. Record different settings of GR to disk then compare in an FX system that can wipe or cut between the different versions. I will also do the same to material with movement in it , apply the same settings, record and check the same way. Check between your new Grain reduced version with the original, look for less grain but also look out for artifacts or smearing on fast movement As a Colourist I have traditionally had control of grain reduction on a scene by scene basis, using a hardware GR box This is not always the case now. Are there any GR systems that will give a good preview output, so settings can be judged before rendering? I would love to have realtime control of GR just as I now have realtime control of colour and PTRZ controls. Not sure anybody grading in a non linear 2K DI workflow can do this today? Merry Christmas Warren Freelance Colourist Australia From Peter.White at uea.ac.uk Fri Dec 19 13:47:34 2008 From: Peter.White at uea.ac.uk (White Peter Mr (EAFA)) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:47:34 -0000 Subject: [Tig] formula sought References: Message-ID: Rob, Take 4x3 as the actual lengths and you can work out that the diagonal of our 4x3 (with Pythagoras) would be 5. So 5 goes into 20 four times thus: the width would work out at 16 (because 4x4=16) the height would be 12 (because 4x3=12) Sorry for the roundabout explanation, Peter White Head of Technical Development East Anglian Film Archive ________________________________ From: tig-bounces at colorist.org on behalf of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Fri 19-12-2008 13:13 To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] formula sought 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== if the diagonal screen size of a 4x3 monitor is 20 inches, and I need to find the height and width, there should be a fairly simple formula, correct? it would work on the Pythagorean theorem, but how to plug in the aspect ratio and solve for the two variables, is a bit of a puzzle. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From dan at flandersscientific.com Fri Dec 19 13:58:24 2008 From: dan at flandersscientific.com (Dan Desmet) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:58:24 -0500 Subject: [Tig] formula sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01c961e1$dd643e80$982cbb80$@com> Rob, For a 4 by 3 monitor: Width = 0.8 x diagonal Height= 0.6 x diagonal So, your 20" monitor is 16" wide and 12" high. Regards, Dan Desmet Dan at FlandersScientific.com -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lingelbach Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:13 AM To: Telecine Internet Group Subject: [Tig] formula sought 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== if the diagonal screen size of a 4x3 monitor is 20 inches, and I need to find the height and width, there should be a fairly simple formula, correct? it would work on the Pythagorean theorem, but how to plug in the aspect ratio and solve for the two variables, is a bit of a puzzle. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 14:02:21 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:02:21 +0200 Subject: [Tig] formula sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BAF8875-4A3C-48B9-A4DF-E2A99C6D1A8A@colorist.org> thanks Peter, Dan, and Phil. > So 5 goes into 20 four times thus: > > the width would work out at 16 (because 4x4=16) > > the height would be 12 (because 4x3=12) right, thanks. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Dec 19 15:59:32 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:59:32 -0700 Subject: [Tig] formula sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More fun with formulae: You can fit 9 4x3 screens into a single 4x3 frame and we used to do this a lot when it was in vogue for commercial work. Fell into a trap once where the cels were square -- it was an art director's non- mathematical interpretation. The content in question were LP record album covers. You can fit 12 4x3 cels into a 16x9 screen and we thought there would be a market for this for consumer television. Show the main program as a large screen left (where the "9" 4x3's would go) and three "previews" or ancillary programming stacked on the right. Doesn't work for 16x9 programming of course. 16x9 is 4x3 squared. And for more fun, work out that the "common equal area" aspect ratio between 1.33 and 2.35 is 1.77777. The Kerns Powers SMPTE determination. Who says math is no fun? Where would we be without the miracle of compound interest, chain letters, Ponzi schemes and mortgage bubbles? > > > if the diagonal screen size of a 4x3 monitor is 20 inches, and I > need to find the height and width, there should be a fairly simple > formula, correct? > Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From NJK at cbsnews.com Fri Dec 19 15:53:15 2008 From: NJK at cbsnews.com (Kassner, Neal) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:53:15 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Digital Vision's Reorganization... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28375BA0FC85BC4084C942D659F636E90F26646C@NYCCNDX02.cbsnewsenps.cbsnews.net> Looks like they may be emerging from the woods... http://www.digitalvision.se/news/DigitalVisionGuaranteedshareissue.htm Neal Kassner | Colorist | CBS News | 212 975-7680 | NJK at CBSNEWS.COM From russell at innomedia.co.uk Fri Dec 19 15:37:27 2008 From: russell at innomedia.co.uk (Russell Branch) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:37:27 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Theorem sought for aspect ratio Message-ID: <002a01c961ef$b30ea810$192bf830$@co.uk> Hi Rob, You are quite correct, the pythagorean principle holds true, (hypotenuse given by square root of the sum of the squares) so for a 4: 3 screen, the hypotenuse is a 5, such that a 20 inch screen has a base dimension of 4/5 (16 inch) and a height of 12 inch (3/5) However, it is slightly more complicated than that, since in the CRT picture tube world, it was traditional to specify the CRT diagonal in inches from outer rimband to outer rimband, meaning that for a 24 inch grade 1 CRT, the actual visible picture diagonal is about 1 1/2 inch less than the nominal dimension. (Oddly enough, in France the authorities insisted that screen dimensions be given in cms, and these were the actual viewable dimensions rather than the gross outside so we used to have a mathematical (or marketing!) dilemma that the TV's outer box would list both inches and cms, and the two were not the same actual length.) For LCD, it is more complicated still - for instance a 1920 x 1200 display such as the Cine-tal has a ratio of 16:10 giving us a ratio of 16x along the bottom, 10x up the side and approx 18.9x diagonal, so for a 24 inch display the base will be (16/18.9) x 24 = 20.3 inch. However, a) you have to remember that the dimensions on a LCD are for the actual viewable area, giving slightly more bang for your buck than for a CRT; and b) that although the vertical dimension is correct for the screen at full 1200 line DVI resolution, you should make the calculation at 16:9 if you are working HD since, at least in the case of the Cine-tal, the extra 120 superfluous lines over and above the 1080 of active video are used for information and menu's (so diagonal ratio is 18.35:16:9 giving the height of the active image area as (9/18.35) x 24 = 11.77 inch. Russell Branch Formerly a Toshiba Senior TV design engineer and Toshiba's European CRT specialist (happy days) Managing Director InnoMedia Systems Ltd Tel/Fax: +44 1473 231963 Mobile: +44 7900 692000 e-mail: russell at innomedia.co.uk Disclaimer - InnoMedia is the importer and European master distributor for Cine-tal monitors From rlovejoy at comcast.net Fri Dec 19 16:39:08 2008 From: rlovejoy at comcast.net (rlovejoy at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:39:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black Message-ID: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Hello everyone, I have a feeling I should not be confused by this, but as I am, I thought that this was the forum of choice for helping me get a handle on this. I'm told that in the brave new digital world, 0 is the new 7.5. The esteemed 601 pedestal has apparently been declared a relic in the age of 709 and black should now reside comfortably at 0 IRE. (I'm talking about video, not data, by the way.) What is confusing me is that our bar generator is still generating a 7.5 black with PLUGE (aka SMPTE bars). Should we be looking for a new bars generator? Additionally, I am realizing that we have not as yet changed our legalizer settings in our 2k to even allow for zero black. TV stations are still transmitting NTSC, so for the time being to we have to keep the pedestal for things going to air? Should we be recalibrating our monitors to allow for the extra room in the blacks? Now that PLUGE is gone, how do we calibrate for zero black? For that matter, is PLUGE gone with the antique 7.5 pedestal? Or is all this a misunderstanding? Might someone elucidate me on the current status of black in the era of the digital transition? Are projects going to SD DVD to have a 7.5 setup or 0 IRE? Broadcast TV, analog or digital - same question. I think I missed the memo from SMPTE announcing the end of the 7.5 black setup (I was probably working late that day...). I checked our handy thick manual of PBS specs and they said digital blacks can go down to 0 IRE but must show as 7.5 in a composite signal. Uh-oh! We have a new digital waveform/vectorscope display in the dub room. They have it set for black to be at 0, which simply pulls down the 7.5 pedestal our generator is creating. I'm telling them that can't be an accurate representation of the signal as the generator is actually generating it with 7.5 black setup. "But this is digital!" Are black setups the same for HDTV as digital SDTV? OK, enough already! I shall eagerly await your responses. Yours in mild confusion, Bob Lovejoy Senior Old School Colorist having a Senior Moment Shooters Post Philadelphia, PA From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 16:58:00 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:58:00 +0200 Subject: [Tig] formula sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16270B45-997A-4E85-B756-B09A1F62A768@colorist.org> On Dec 19, 2008, at 5:59 PM, Joe Owens wrote: > Who says math is no fun? Where would we be without the miracle of > compound interest, chain letters, Ponzi schemes and mortgage bubbles? If you're at all curious about The Calculus, David Berlinski's book "A Tour of the Calculus" is really entertaining, and he has a certain way with words as well... there are some points (ahem) in math that are still quite mysterious. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 17:08:40 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:08:40 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob. no question is too dumb, and there are a few in there that i wish i'd asked, but i can say that i have a signal generator- a Tek SPG 422, that gives via the "serial signals" option a pluge at -2.5, 0, and +2.5. I am in the PAL world, however, where zero black has been around for a good long time. I remember (talk about old fogies) the first time I was exposed to PAL, with EBU phosphors, and after a brief period of brain resynchronization to 25fps, I watched, repeatedly, the entire MGM film library in several different languages, doing QC of transfers done on- site in Hollywood. That was in 1983, and zero black/no phase became my mantra. (no connection with Tektronix) Rob -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Dec 19 17:28:12 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:28:12 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I've seen a number of discussions around this, and the Final Cut Users' Manual does as good a job as I've seen. Its not a trivial issue. 7.5 Pedestal is good for ANALOG Standard Definition. But 0 is the Digital world, even in 601. There is a nice little check box in the AJA output section to deal with this in their Digital/Analog handling. No pedestal in the SDI outs, but pedestal inserted in the Analog outputs. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Dec 19 17:47:11 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:47:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > I have a feeling I should not be confused by this, but as I am, I > thought that this was the forum of choice for helping me get a > handle on this. I'm told that in the brave new digital world, 0 is > the new 7.5. The esteemed 601 pedestal has apparently been declared > a relic in the age of 709 and black should now reside comfortably at > 0 IRE. (I'm talking about video, not data, by the way.) What causes you to believe that Rec.709 video setup is different than Rec.601? I don't think that it is. > I think I missed the memo from SMPTE announcing the end of the 7.5 > black setup (I was probably working late that day...). I checked our Probably because there never was any such memo. > Are black setups the same for HDTV as digital SDTV? Should be. You can certainly use non-standard setup if you like, keeping in mind the "lost codes" associated with SDI and certain tape devices. This is most useful for purposes other than "video". Also keep in mind that since this is not standard video, you should not broadcast it or deliver it to end users like standard video since then the image will be wrong. Perhaps this explains the severely crushed blacks that I have seen in films broacast in HD by Cinemax. For a while that caused me to think that my TV was failing. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rlovejoy at comcast.net Fri Dec 19 17:42:57 2008 From: rlovejoy at comcast.net (rlovejoy at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:42:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <6B746A2F-A929-4E11-9E5E-95F0E3C0B6F4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1897940039.84551229708577937.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> OK, so we need to change our bar generator to a zero black. We also need to reset our legalizers, recalibrate our monitors (once we find a 0 IRE PLUGE), and write sticky notes to the dub room about raising the pedestal on all dubs to composite formats. Henceforth all digital masters, SD or HD, Broadcast or DVD, will have 0 IRE black. O Brave New World! Bob "Where's My TOPSY?" Lovejoy From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 18:10:36 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:10:36 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <1897940039.84551229708577937.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1897940039.84551229708577937.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <374CAA99-F878-49AF-96E2-8D2961B7D47A@colorist.org> On Dec 19, 2008, at 7:42 PM, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > OK, so we need to change our bar generator to a zero black. incidentally, I've seen suite configurations that clip black at zero, which makes the pluge difficult to set up. I'd be sure the path passes negative black as well, so the pluge does you some real good. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rlovejoy at comcast.net Fri Dec 19 18:14:35 2008 From: rlovejoy at comcast.net (rlovejoy at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:14:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Re; Digital Black Message-ID: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I just undertook some belated research on my end. Our generator outputs SMPTE bars, and I read the black at 0 IRE. So all along we've been doing it correctly. But, what is happening is that the low end of the PLUGE, which sat at 5 IRE in composite days, is crushed to 0 in digital and 7.5 in composite. If I raise the pedestal with the 2k, I can see the darker PLUGE, but when I set it to be at "black", it's a goner. So what we appear to need is an accurate digital PLUGE. Has anyone seen one? It would have levels of -2.5, 0, and +2.5 IRE. I haven't yet found the part of the legalizer that lets me set picture into sync. Bob "Where's my Dubner?" Lovejoy From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Dec 19 18:16:30 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:16:30 -0800 Subject: [Tig] MGM Library transfers-1983 ( was Digital Black) In-Reply-To: References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:08 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > different languages, doing QC of transfers done on-site in > Hollywood. That was in 1983> What were they transferred on and to? Rank and 1"? Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 18:22:07 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:22:07 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Re; Digital Black In-Reply-To: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:14 PM, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > So what we appear to need is an accurate digital PLUGE. Has anyone > seen one? It would have levels of -2.5, 0, and +2.5 IRE. > I haven't yet found the part of the legalizer that lets me set > picture into sync. i think the IEEE wrote the first paper on PLUGE (Picture Lineup Generation Equipment) in 1966, it's available for purchase apparently on the web. Wish I could verify those levels.. but the term does seem to have a generic sense of just meaning a method to set up picture monitors; the PLUGE available on the sync generator I use has 4 or 5 chips vertically on the right of the frame, and the traditional 3- strip below, at, and above black on the left. The ones ascending in luminance and position on the right of frame go to 100IRE, so it's a fair way of also determining black<->white tracking in the monitor. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 18:25:29 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:25:29 +0200 Subject: [Tig] MGM Library transfers-1983 ( was Digital Black) In-Reply-To: References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: >> > different languages, doing QC of transfers done on-site in >> Hollywood. That was in 1983> > > > What were they transferred on and to? Rank and 1"? pretty good guesses. Rank MkIIIC to 1-inch recorded in PAL and then a separate transfer for NTSC, both using Ampex 1".. you know, those bullet-proof, beautifully engineered Ampexes (Ampexi?) VPR 3s I believe. you can pick one up for ?what? 77k US$? they've risen in value!. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From ted at tedlangdell.com Fri Dec 19 18:57:24 2008 From: ted at tedlangdell.com (Ted Langdell) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:57:24 -0800 Subject: [Tig] MGM Library transfers-1983 ( was Digital Black) In-Reply-To: References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:25 AM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:16 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > >>> >> different languages, doing QC of transfers done on-site in >>> Hollywood. That was in 1983> >> >> What were they transferred on and to? Rank and 1"? > > pretty good guesses. Rank MkIIIC to 1-inch recorded in PAL and then > a separate transfer for NTSC, both using Ampex 1".. What CC system? And did one just re-use the PAL CC settings for the NTSC transfer? > you know, those bullet-proof, beautifully engineered Ampexes > (Ampexi?) VPR 3s I believe. you can pick one up for ?what? 77k US > $? they've risen in value!. > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org Free! With Zeus TBC. Picked one up from a business associate who'd in turn picked it up from a Silicon Valley computer company studio that downsized in a big way. My collector friend Tim Stoffel (Google Quadruplex Park) has it now. Ted Ted Langdell Ted Langdell Creative Broadcast Services Marysville, CA Main: (530) 741-1212 tedlangdell.com. Storytelling through Broadcast Coverage and Creative Services since 1974 From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Dec 19 19:01:44 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:01:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <1897940039.84551229708577937.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <1897940039.84551229708577937.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > OK, so we need to change our bar generator to a zero black. We also > need to reset our legalizers, recalibrate our monitors (once we find > a 0 IRE PLUGE), and write sticky notes to the dub room about raising I don't think that that there really is such thing as a 0 IRE PLUGE. Since there is no negative value, it is impossible to display the true pluge pattern if there is no value less than 'black'. There are alternative patterns which help with the guessing. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Dec 19 19:04:20 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:04:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Re; Digital Black In-Reply-To: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > So what we appear to need is an accurate digital PLUGE. Has anyone > seen one? It would have levels of -2.5, 0, and +2.5 IRE. The digital image storage normally uses unsigned values so negative values are not possible. There is no such thing as a negative value for SDI or HDMI. Some formats like EXR could support negative values. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 19:10:59 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:10:59 +0200 Subject: [Tig] MGM Library transfers-1983 ( was Digital Black) In-Reply-To: <251E3FF8-FEDF-4040-A412-8D849A76F13A@tedlangdell.com> References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <251E3FF8-FEDF-4040-A412-8D849A76F13A@tedlangdell.com> Message-ID: <166DF91E-D609-48E2-88B7-E61B3780233D@colorist.org> On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:56 PM, Ted Langdell wrote: > What CC system? Dubner with secondaries. > And did one just re-use the PAL CC settings for the NTSC transfer? I believe so. There is a guy who could answer this, who was formerly on the TIG but not now, Steven Bradford. If we can find him he'd know. It was Ron Fenis (or Finis) who was the Colorist, I sorely wanted to learn from him. He also put a V8 engine in a Chevy Vega, I wanted that car. > Free! With Zeus TBC. hah! I googled VPR3 and saw someone wanting to sell them for 77k > l (Google Quadruplex Park) has it now. I saw Quadruplex Park come up in my search for VPR3. that was the best analog VTR ever made I think, unless for clean signal you consider the Bosch Type A. David Crosthwaite in Burbank has an array of old VTRs and makes a living doing remastering. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 19:12:53 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:12:53 +0200 Subject: [Tig] MGM Library transfers-1983 ( was Digital Black) In-Reply-To: <166DF91E-D609-48E2-88B7-E61B3780233D@colorist.org> References: <1529758092.69641229704748319.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <251E3FF8-FEDF-4040-A412-8D849A76F13A@tedlangdell.com> <166DF91E-D609-48E2-88B7-E61B3780233D@colorist.org> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > I saw Quadruplex Park come up in my search for VPR3. that was the > best analog VTR ever made I think, unless for clean signal you > consider the Bosch Type A. that should have been Bosch Type B. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rlovejoy at comcast.net Fri Dec 19 19:21:50 2008 From: rlovejoy at comcast.net (rlovejoy at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:21:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <698367792.102901229714510885.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Bob, can you point us to some links or info on the new "alternative" patterns? (That's what they called me in the sixties and seventies... I like "alternative"!) I feel like I have a handle on the situation now, and I thank my fellow TIGgers. Unfortunately, I am realizing now that PLUGE is obsolete, so I am eagerly awaiting its replacement. Thanks again to all! Bob "Where's my Chromacomp?" Lovejoy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Friesenhahn" I don't think that that there really is such thing as a 0 IRE PLUGE. Since there is no negative value, it is impossible to display the true pluge pattern if there is no value less than 'black'. There are alternative patterns which help with the guessing. From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 19:43:19 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:43:19 +0200 Subject: [Tig] answer from Steven Bradford on Ted's questions re: cc lists References: <7EC65FBC-69B7-4605-A4FA-9F0FCD9C35C2@seanet.com> Message-ID: Answers to Ted L.'s question: > Here's what I remember-- They were able to use the PAL CC setting > for the NTSC transfer, but they wouldn't just use them > automatically, they were a base setting for the NTSC transfer. The > colorist would still go through the whole film in NTSC and make > tweaks as needed. > But I do remember them always doing the PAL xfer first. > > But that was, damn, a long time ago. And I wasn't the one doing it. > This is what I remember either Ron or Charlie telling me, the > hypercurious 23 year old with tons of questions. > > Steven Bradford > Seattle Washington > http://www.seanet.com/~bradford/ -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Dec 19 19:57:01 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:57:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <698367792.102901229714510885.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <698367792.102901229714510885.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > > Bob, can you point us to some links or info on the new "alternative" > patterns? (That's what they called me in the sixties and > seventies... I like "alternative"!) Joe Kane included one or two of these on his "Digital Video Essentials" DVD. The problem he needed to solve is that some DVD players are not willing/able to output below black although they do observe correct black setup. The alternative Pluge is not as accurate as a true Pluge but it helps you guess better. > I feel like I have a handle on the situation now, and I thank my > fellow TIGgers. Unfortunately, I am realizing now that PLUGE is > obsolete, so I am eagerly awaiting its replacement. I don't think that Pluge is obsolete yet. Note that without a black video setup which is above zero, you can not possibly go "below black". As I pointed out to Rob in private email, even with digital the analog world has not actually gone away. CRT is still analog and even LCD is analog. The only true digital display technology I am aware of is DLP (or similar technologies) and even then the wavering light signal can be seen as a form of analog. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jpo at prestodigital.ca Fri Dec 19 20:00:55 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 13:00:55 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Use NTSC colour list for PAL In-Reply-To: References: <7EC65FBC-69B7-4605-A4FA-9F0FCD9C35C2@seanet.com> Message-ID: <1F64CFBF-C9A9-41B5-91E8-B92F45412461@prestodigital.ca> Only did a couple of these with an URSA. It mostly worked but there was a subtle intensity shift with the scan patch running at a different speed so tweakage did come into play. Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From mlbnyc at verizon.net Fri Dec 19 20:02:03 2008 From: mlbnyc at verizon.net (Michael Bittle) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:02:03 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Re; Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Digital doesn't speak IRE. 0 IRE is a value of 16 8 bit and 64 in 10 bit if memory serves..... so that digital 0 would translate to the negative IRE value. Mike Michael L. Bittle Vice President Technical Operations and Quality PostWorks, New York 100 Avenue of the Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 212.894.4000 vox, 212-894-4099 fax www.pwny.com "Science, as it turns out, is not an exact science" On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:04 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > >> So what we appear to need is an accurate digital PLUGE. Has anyone >> seen one? It would have levels of -2.5, 0, and +2.5 IRE. > > The digital image storage normally uses unsigned values so negative > values are not possible. There is no such thing as a negative value > for SDI or HDMI. Some formats like EXR could support negative values. > > Bob > ====================================== > Bob Friesenhahn > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 20:04:49 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:04:49 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: <698367792.102901229714510885.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <426AC68C-1860-4DA1-9D27-CB385ECCD6CD@colorist.org> On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:57 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > As I pointed out to Rob in private email, even with digital the > analog world has not actually gone away. CRT is still analog and > even LCD is analog. and some scanners for film, notably the DSX from Cintel, are analog at the very front end, using a CRT. And, .... I like them, personally, for their depth, which is a hard thing to quantify. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From pmendelson at ascentmedia.com Fri Dec 19 20:18:33 2008 From: pmendelson at ascentmedia.com (Phil Mendelson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:18:33 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ³Note that without a black video setup which is above zero, you can not possibly go "below black".² Not true, as Œzero¹ in this case means baseline, and baseline is at code 64 10 bit On 12/19/08 11:57 AM, "Bob Friesenhahn" wrote: > Note that without a black video setup which is above zero, you can not > possibly go "below black". From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com Fri Dec 19 20:21:06 2008 From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:21:06 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <426AC68C-1860-4DA1-9D27-CB385ECCD6CD@colorist.org> References: <698367792.102901229714510885.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <426AC68C-1860-4DA1-9D27-CB385ECCD6CD@colorist.org> Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65D23@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> AFAIK all scanner technologies are analog.(I guess you could call things like barcode scanners digital.) We live in an analog world that we are quantizing and compressing to make it convent to store and move around. Nearly all sensors and emitters are analog. Bob Micheletti Engineer, Univ Pics From rob at colorist.org Fri Dec 19 20:35:21 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:35:21 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65D23@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> References: <698367792.102901229714510885.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <426AC68C-1860-4DA1-9D27-CB385ECCD6CD@colorist.org> <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65D23@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> Message-ID: <32A1EF73-D78F-4995-B5B5-BD8176B3AA10@colorist.org> On Dec 19, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal) wrote: > AFAIK all scanner technologies are analog.(I guess you could call > things like barcode scanners digital.) so CCDs are digital, by this definition? it would be nice, actually, to have a fuzzy line between analog and digital. digilog, analtal. http://www.colorist.org/pipermail/tig/2008-March/013090.html -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Fri Dec 19 20:45:26 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:45:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Phil Mendelson wrote: > ³Note that without a black video setup which is above zero, you can not > possibly go "below black".² > > Not true, as Œzero¹ in this case means baseline, and baseline is at code 64 > 10 bit Clearly I am a bad communicator since that is what I have been trying to say all along. The original posting seemed to imply that the baseline of 64 was no longer needed since everything was digital now. One major reason for that baseline of 64 was in case the signal was transmitted via an analog path and there needed to be some margin for error. It may be that I misunderstood the intent of the original posting. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From jeff.booth at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 20 08:50:56 2008 From: jeff.booth at ntlworld.com (Jeff Booth) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 08:50:56 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: <1897940039.84551229708577937.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <12DE2E584ABB4274BB718356B1A1E5A1@desktop> Hi, My understanding of 601 video is that black gets allocated 16h and reference white is at code 235h (in the 8 bit world). This therefore gives some headroom and footroom for sub black and white overshoots. Therefore the sub-black found in PLUGE is valid. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: tig-bounces at colorist.org [mailto:tig-bounces at colorist.org] On Behalf Of Bob Friesenhahn Sent: 19 December 2008 19:02 To: rlovejoy at comcast.net Cc: tig at colorist.org Subject: Re: [Tig] Digital Black 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote: > OK, so we need to change our bar generator to a zero black. We also > need to reset our legalizers, recalibrate our monitors (once we find a > 0 IRE PLUGE), and write sticky notes to the dub room about raising I don't think that that there really is such thing as a 0 IRE PLUGE. Since there is no negative value, it is impossible to display the true pluge pattern if there is no value less than 'black'. There are alternative patterns which help with the guessing. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From mikko.kuutti at kava.fi Sat Dec 20 05:55:54 2008 From: mikko.kuutti at kava.fi (Mikko Kuutti) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:55:54 +0200 Subject: [Tig] formula sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69652E7C-EABD-497F-970C-275311C9B46D@kava.fi> It is also noteworthy that the ratio of diagonals of equal height screens at 16:9 & 4:3 is SQRT((16^2+9^2)/(12^2+9^2))= 1.22, whence one can construct the following table: 4:3 16:9 20 24 21 26 22 27 24 29 25 30 26 32 28 34 30 37 32 39 34 42 37 45 41 50 42 51 50 61 53 65 This is useful to see how big a new screen you need to get if you want to continue seeing Academy material at the same size you're used to. To replace a 28" tube you thus need a 34" 16:9 screen. Of course, what Russell Branch wrote earlier makes it a little more complicated, especially if you live in France. Mikko Mikko Kuutti Deputy Director National Audiovisual Archive Pursimiehenkatu 29-31 A / P.O. Box 177, FI-00151 Helsinki, Finland tel. +358 9 6154 0254, mobile +358 40 900 0455 On 19.12.2008, at 15.13, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > if the diagonal screen size of a 4x3 monitor is 20 inches, and I > need to find the height and width, there should be a fairly simple > formula, correct? > > it would work on the Pythagorean theorem, but how to plug in the > aspect ratio and solve for the two variables, is a bit of a puzzle. > > -- > Rob Lingelbach > rob at colorist.org > From ken at flight4.org Sat Dec 20 12:32:02 2008 From: ken at flight4.org (Ken Robinson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:32:02 -0000 Subject: [Tig] Color Quiz In-Reply-To: <000701c9608e$d2cca7e0$7865f7a0$@com> References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> <000701c9608e$d2cca7e0$7865f7a0$@com> Message-ID: <003e01c9629e$f79ee3f0$0802000a@flight4> If I got all the answers wrong... does this mean I can get back into the machine room... or am I a runner? And I am very disappointed that I don't appear in this quiz... as I had at least one answer correct before. ken robinson Argentina GSM: +54 9 2941 637570 ==== >http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Jim_Mann_senior_colorist_Qiuiz >Ok, I tried my hand at this, good luck. I mistyped the word quiz when >naming >the page, sorry. >y Christmas, everyone have a safe holiday, >Jim From jfmann at optimum.net Sat Dec 20 18:54:58 2008 From: jfmann at optimum.net (Jim Mann) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:54:58 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Color Quiz In-Reply-To: <003e01c9629e$f79ee3f0$0802000a@flight4> References: <96B3A4EC-4B2E-4BA3-98D9-C1299AAF410A@finishedit.com> <000701c9608e$d2cca7e0$7865f7a0$@com> <003e01c9629e$f79ee3f0$0802000a@flight4> Message-ID: <001201c962d4$762ab930$62802b90$@net> Hey Ken. I just don't know what I was thinking...to not give you a mention. Shame! Plus one note: When I phased Question #7 I did so from the perspective from this side of the pond. I have since rephrased the question to be less vague and to have a more international flavor. Thanks to Bengt in Oslo for the note. Regards, Jim Jim Mann Colorist/daVinci Product Specialist [ POSTWORKS ] NEW YORK 100 Avenue of Americas, 10th Floor New York, NY 10013 http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/User:Jim_Mann From richard at filmlight.ltd.uk Mon Dec 22 09:19:30 2008 From: richard at filmlight.ltd.uk (Richard Kirk) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:19:30 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494F5BA2.2080002@filmlight.ltd.uk> Hi. When I first had to talk to video people, I had a lot of trouble over the basic concept of 'black'. There might be a video monitor on a darkened room showing an obvious grey. I would say 'Hang on - that's not black, like the monitor in the other room - is it calibrated'. They would patiently attach some Sony suction cup probe, take a few standard measurements, and then point to the monitor showing exactly the same shade of grey and say 'There you are! I told you was calibrated all along!'. Eventually I twigged that video 'black' meant the point where you could not see detail, not the point where there was no light. Video was not easy to calibrate at the time. You could not control the whole tone curve (usually just gain and offset). The individual tubes had a glow as they got old which could not be offset. The light meters were not sensitive to measure down to the black levels. Finally, balance between the glow and the ambient light in the working environment meant if you could produce a given level of tone detail, you could not necessarily see it. The PLUGE test was a very elegant way of getting around these shortcomings - it effectively defined 'black' as the point at which a small signal could not be seen. When you set up a monitor using the PLUGE test, you got a certain level of visibility of shadow detail for your environmental lighting. Because I was usually working with computer graphics images, I was not able to calibrate computer monitors with sub-blacks. The solution was if you had a monitor with a 1-254 range, to measure the 254 white, and the 20 grey until the grey was 1/500 of the luminance of the white. This gave pretty much the same tone curve as a PLUGE adjusted Sony BVM monitor in a darkened room. The approximate equivalent for legal video was to use a 33 grey patch ( 20/254 = 0.0784, (33-16)/(235-16) = 0.0776). I doubt if this would work for LCD monitors which rarely have a range of more than 500:1 (some can manage 1000:1 or better, but many cannot). This is built into the Truelight 'tl-cal' utility. So - I think it is possible to do a sort of monitor set up without sub-blacks. It can't be the same as a PLUGE test but it can give similar results. Cheers. Richard Kirk -- FilmLight Ltd. Tel: +44 (0)20 7292 0400 or 0409 224 (direct) Artists House, Fax: +44 (0)20 7292 0401 14-15 Manette Street London W1D 4AP From bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com Mon Dec 22 17:17:44 2008 From: bob.micheletti at nbcuni.com (Micheletti, Bob (NBC Universal)) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:17:44 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <494F5BA2.2080002@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <494F5BA2.2080002@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <7E83FFCD85919542AB2BEAFFC0004C661DA65D29@UCTMLVEM01.e2k.ad.ge.com> I have had good luck with moving the X position of the picture off a small amount to leave a reference area of the screen at it's blackest possible level (no picture) then put up "black" and adjust the brightness to the minimum discernible difference between the black image and the unlit screen. Bob Micheletti Engineer, Universal Pictures From bob at bluescreen.com Mon Dec 22 17:12:11 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:12:11 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: <494F5BA2.2080002@filmlight.ltd.uk> References: <494F5BA2.2080002@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: >The PLUGE test was a very elegant way of getting >around these shortcomings - it effectively defined 'black' as the point >at which a small signal could not be seen. When you set up a monitor >using the PLUGE test, you got a certain level of visibility of shadow >detail for your environmental lighting. As long as that environmental lighting didn't change, because the glass face of a CRT gathers light from everywhere, even, it seems, the suite next door. Or that iPhone the producer is sending texts on. Additionally, the pluge almost always comes coupled to color bars, and a CRT monitor's characteristics change when displaying that much luminance and chroma. While the pluge was not a bad device for setting consistency, I always questioned its accuracy. I am about to go and do video control on a five camera recording session at Capitol Records. Having done the gig before, I know that the DP will light to about 10-12 footcandles, everything will be running wide open, and except for the occasional highlight, the APL will be somewhere around 20-30 IRE. There is simply no way setting monitor brightness via pluge will get accurate results. What I will do is iris one camera all the way down, set master black so that black JUST comes out of blanking, then set monitor brightness so I JUST see the raster come out of blanking. Those of you with LCD's are on your own :-). --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From terry at finishedit.com Mon Dec 22 16:38:04 2008 From: terry at finishedit.com (Terry Lockhart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:38:04 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black - again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <702A5DFE-9CD8-4C1C-8655-6208E616AEC9@finishedit.com> Judging from the last couple Tig digest issues, there is a lot of confusion around what constitutes black, and in what "space". Suffice it to say that there have been several compromises made over the years to accommodate differences among various formats, whether inderently analog or digital. Here's my nickel's worth of what to keep in mind: 1) What customarily in NTSC is 7.5 IRE black, 601 black sits at 0% (0 IRE), this is actually digital value 16(8bit) or 64(10bit). Therefor there is ample "footroom" in the standard to accommodate the -2.5 IRE negative plugem, and thus the full pluge in a properly generated 601 SMPTE color bar signal is in fact reproduced by all professional grade 601 I-O digital VTRs (D1, D5, DBeta, even DVCPro and DVcam). The fly in the ointment is that many (if not most) NLE's clip at 0% black, simply because this value gets mapped to digital zero (0,0,0) in the computer space. Moreover these systems frequently are set to clip white at 100 IRE as well, by mapping (255,255,255) to 100%. Doing this avoids a lot of illegal values which might otherwise occur in material created by computer graphic designers in programs such as Photoshop. Many systems now offer user-settable preferences for how to map levels from video space to computer space and vice versa. WARNING- take care not to mis-apply these settings. Two wrongs can make an apparent "right". 2) Not only does the pluge tend to get clipped off going through a NLE, but likewise the values of EIA (and SMPTE) color bars' I-Q patches get completely screwed up due to the fact that they are not legal colors in RGB space, but are meant to be test signals valid only in Yuv or Yiq space. Most obviously, the reproduced luminance values are completely wrong (elevated) coming back out of a NLE operating in RGB space. For this reason in my shop we never place standard SMPTE or EIA bars on headers of digital videotapes, as they may be processed through NLE's routinely as they progress through a workflow. We have created our own Pseudo-SMPTE ColorBar tape headers with the I-Q patches replaced by black or other useful signals such as a more detailed greyscale, pluge, or clip-indicating ramps. 3) Players of DV tapes (including compatible DVcam and DVCpro units) vary with respect to whether or not they apply 7.5 setup to their analog outputs. Usually there is a menu setting or two to allow addition or removal of setup when crossing the analog-digital divide. Even in VTRs that have both 1394 (Firewire) and SDI connections you cannot count on blacks being at the proper level on all outputs at once. 4) Just to cover all the bases I can think of- a) we must still keep aware of the fact that NTSC in Japan and Korea never found it necessary to apply 7.5 setup to their analog signals, which has an affect on how encoded colorbar chroma levels should appear on a waveform monitor. b) Component Analog in the NTSC Betacam world has setup on the Y channel (which matches the NTSC signal with chroma removed). Except in Japan. Betacam Chrominance values on 75% bars are at the same voltage level as 100% bars in the SMPTE component standard, which incidentally has no setup applied to luminance. In digital, SDI is 601- no setup, chrominance levels are consistent, regardless of which analog standard it is getting transcoded into. c) I find that most consumer DVD players and consumer monitors tend to follow the SMPTE component standard, rather than Sony's de-facto Betacam standard. That is, no set-up, and lower chrominance levels. Even Sony players. Some have a choice of black levels in the user menus. But to be sure, none of them are very accurately or consistently set up at the factory. 5) To reiterate, 7.5 setup is never supposed to be in the digital signal; when needed it is ALWAYS applied at the analog encoding stage, and to only the analog outputs. I hope all this helps clarify, rather than further obscuring the issue. cheers -- Terry Lockhart Chief Engineer/IT manager Finish Editorial 162 Columbus Ave. Boston, Ma 02116-5222 direct/vm 617 850 6133 main 617 292 0082 or 850 6100 fax 617 292 0083 cel 617 775 3195 I'm beginning to understand myself. But it would have been great to be able to understand myself when I was 20 rather than when I was 82." --Dave Brubeck, American jazz pianist From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 22 18:04:55 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:04:55 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: <494F5BA2.2080002@filmlight.ltd.uk> Message-ID: <6F2B3153-878F-4C7C-B898-84A9CACD5B79@colorist.org> On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > What I will do is iris one camera all the way down, set master black > so that > black JUST comes out of blanking, then set monitor brightness so I > JUST see > the raster come out of blanking. Looks like you and Bob Micheletti are saying the same thing, and it's so simple as to be elegant. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Mon Dec 22 22:36:24 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:36:24 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Facility Table notes Message-ID: <3CD83B51-3A37-4226-888F-33FFCA6A2221@colorist.org> Thanks to all participants who've helped make the Facility Table into something worth visiting. http://www.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/FacilityTable If you haven't listed your credits and capabilities here, please feel free. Rob -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin/founder rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 23 13:19:22 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:19:22 +0200 Subject: [Tig] senior colorist needed, Cairo Message-ID: <048FD31E-04E5-40B4-BD50-167D0BDBCEA0@colorist.org> appearing today in the TIG classifieds at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Classifieds High-end post facility in Cairo needs experienced colorist for 3-6 month contract (could be more); Baselight, Lustre, Lasergraphics scanner and Cinevator 5 film recorder/printer. Colorist will be their senior colorist, doing commercials and feature work in client-attended sessions, english-speaking is a must. interested colorist can email mabdalla at m-wheels.com -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Tue Dec 23 20:34:30 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:34:30 +0200 Subject: [Tig] flash player on wiki Message-ID: <5AA3B850-FEBF-44F5-B890-26942AB44FF7@colorist.org> the tig wiki now includes a flash player, such that user controls for pause, etc. are incorporated, visible on the main page. any colorist wanting to be in the main wiki rotation, which is limited to 3 minutes or less, or, wants to be showcased on the Tig reels site http://reels.colorist.org only need contact me. cheers Rob -- Rob Lingelbach tig admin/founder rob at colorist.org From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Wed Dec 24 11:59:43 2008 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 06:59:43 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Seasons Greetings. Message-ID: <200812240700_MC3-2-18D2-EBAE@compuserve.com> To One & All I wish you all a Great Christmas & Happy/Busy New Year. Hope this is not too off topic! BTW, just because there has not been a BRRE report for a long time does not mean I have given up experimenting. cheers Peter From jpo at prestodigital.ca Wed Dec 24 15:15:47 2008 From: jpo at prestodigital.ca (Joe Owens) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:15:47 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Seasons Greetings. In-Reply-To: <200812240700_MC3-2-18D2-EBAE@compuserve.com> References: <200812240700_MC3-2-18D2-EBAE@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Under strict laboratory conditions, I hope. I want an exhaustive, preferably peer reviewed, report here, on my desk, January 2nd, contrasting the differences and preferences between Guinness Stout in bottles vs. the draught version in the widget cans. Merry Christmas, Season's Greetings, Joyeux Noel, Buon Natale, Felice Navidad, at this rate I'm thinking of running for Pope. Happy Channukah! > > BTW, just because there has not been a BRRE report for a long time > does not > mean I have given up experimenting. > Joe Owens Presto!Digital Colourgrade 302-9664 106 Avenue Edmonton, Alberta T5H0N4 +1 780 421-9980 jpo at prestodigital.ca From SKIADCOCK at aol.com Wed Dec 24 16:30:28 2008 From: SKIADCOCK at aol.com (SKIADCOCK at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:30:28 EST Subject: [Tig] Seasons Greetings. Message-ID: Merry Xmas, Happy Hannukah & (other holiday greetings)! Ditto what Peter said (well, maybe not about the BREE experimenting - I've gone on to champers during the holiday season - grin). Hope you have a great holiday & here's to a good 2009. BTW - I'm writing this while visiting my sister who is a park ranger in the middle of a national park. Breathtakingly beautiful, but 14K dial-up is enough to make you bang your head against the wall. And no cell phone access. Maybe it's a sign that I should wander outside & admire the beauty of the mountains, and figure out if my eyesight (being female) makes the greens any different than the guys looking at them. Ahem. Also, thanks to the Pacific Northwest storms I spent 3 hours shoveling snow the other day; that adventure was less fun after the first hour. Never will I complain about the rare cold & rain in LA again. Looking outside, we're getting more snow so will literally have the proverbial beautiful White Christmas. I've brought 'for your consideration' screeners with me so I'm alternating walking the golden retrievers in the park w/ watching screeners in the evening. My sister did say, after watching a few, such as Doubt, Rachel Getting Married & Revolutionary Road: "are there any happy movies nominated?" LOL. So now for every serious one we watch, we watch an animated or visfx-type one. Happy Holidays all! PS - Ok, a bit of bizness. Is anyone US-based going to CES? In a message dated 12/24/2008 4:56:21 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, peter_swinson at compuserve.com writes: 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org ==== To One & All I wish you all a Great Christmas & Happy/Busy New Year. Hope this is not too off topic! BTW, just because there has not been a BRRE report for a long time does not mean I have given up experimenting. cheers Peter _______________________________________________ http://reels.colorist.org http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025) From rob at colorist.org Wed Dec 24 17:10:32 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:10:32 +0200 Subject: [Tig] WFM 601 fried resistor, power supply Message-ID: <434FC157-F3BF-4BF2-B8CC-39DD9E2F8A7A@colorist.org> I have a WFM 601 with fried resistor in power supply, image at http://tig.colorist.org/wiki3/index.php/Image:Photo.jpg I'll try replacing the resistor, which sits as you can see quite close to the fan. As the fan's filter was quite clogged, I wonder if the fan might have stopped working (the scope won't power up at all nor go into standby) which caused the PS to overheat. Anyone with advice feel free to contact me, thanks in advance. And... Happy Holidays to all!. -- Rob Lingelbach TIG admin rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Dec 24 17:56:27 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:56:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Dark transfers on Cinemax? Message-ID: Does anyone know why film transfers are much darker on Cinemax than on all the other networks? The blacks are crushed. Hair looks like a pool of black. Detail in shadows are lost. This only applies to transfers of feature films. The other content on Cinemax looks fine. When I first saw this on Cinemax I thought that maybe my TV was failing but am reassured by correct appearance on all the other major networks. For example, transfers on HDNet and Showtime always look correct. This problem has existed for most of the year. I don't want to adjust the black level on my TV just for Cinemax. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Dec 24 18:00:43 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:00:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Seasons Greetings. In-Reply-To: References: <200812240700_MC3-2-18D2-EBAE@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2008, Joe Owens wrote: > > Under strict laboratory conditions, I hope. I want an exhaustive, preferably > peer reviewed, report here, on my desk, January 2nd, contrasting the > differences and preferences between Guinness Stout in bottles vs. the draught > version in the widget cans. I think that a comparison of the Guinness Draught from the can to the new Guinness Draught from a bottle would be more telling. I learned about draught from a bottle by being served it by mistake when I explicitly requested Guinness Extra Stout (no light-weights here). Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From mfw at musictrax.com Wed Dec 24 22:13:13 2008 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:13:13 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Dark transfers on Cinemax? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/24/08 9:56 AM, "Bob Friesenhahn" wrote on the TIG list: > Does anyone know why film transfers are much darker on Cinemax than on > all the other networks? The blacks are crushed. >------------------------------------------------------------< How are you watching Cinemax? DirecTV? Digital cable? Analog cable? High def? Standard def? As far as I know, Cinemax uses the same studio transfers that everybody else does. They aren't deliberately crushing anything. If anything, I think there's less "tweaking" going on among all the cable channels than ever. Audio program levels, though, are all over the map. That I'll grant you. Meanwhile... happy Festivus, everybody! --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Wed Dec 24 22:46:02 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:46:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Dark transfers on Cinemax? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2008, Marc Wielage wrote: > On 12/24/08 9:56 AM, "Bob Friesenhahn" wrote > on the TIG list: > >> Does anyone know why film transfers are much darker on Cinemax than on >> all the other networks? The blacks are crushed. >> ------------------------------------------------------------< > > How are you watching Cinemax? DirecTV? Digital cable? Analog cable? High > def? Standard def? This is HD off of Dish Network. > As far as I know, Cinemax uses the same studio transfers that everybody else > does. They aren't deliberately crushing anything. If anything, I think > there's less "tweaking" going on among all the cable channels than ever. I am not sure what is mean by "same studio transfers". If everything was standard then HBO would not look different than Starz which would not look different than Showtime, which would not look different than HDNet, which would not look different than Cinemax. I am not even a Colorist yet they all look different to me. Probably different companies are doing those "same studio transfers"? Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From kent at notch.ca Thu Dec 25 01:29:47 2008 From: kent at notch.ca (Kent McCormick) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:29:47 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dark transfers on Cinemax? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4952E20B.5030705@notch.ca> I am sure the original transfers / grades from the post people are pristine, the problems arise after the transfer. Networks dub the masters countless times, beam them by satellite all over the world, a lot of different technicians along the way. I don't know about every TV station, but the ones I have worked at have a lot of techs who either don't know how to line up a dub / satellite feed or just don't care anymore, and they seem to be the ones training the new guys ! It can look completely "wrong" and still pass QC Kent McCormick Colorist Notch >> >>> Does anyone know why film transfers are much darker on Cinemax than on >>> all the other networks? The blacks are crushed. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------< >> > From mfw at musictrax.com Thu Dec 25 01:55:42 2008 From: mfw at musictrax.com (Marc Wielage) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:55:42 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Dark transfers on Cinemax? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/24/08 2:46 PM, "Bob Friesenhahn" wrote on the TIG list: > This is HD off of Dish Network. >------------------------------------------------------------< Then I suspect it's a Dish Network problem. They're taking a feed from Cinemax and then compressing it and hosing it back into their system. If there's a problem with the DA, or with the processors feeding the rest of their router, then it could certainly affect levels. Don't assume that what you see on one satellite system looks the same all over the country, or the same as DirecTV or digital cable (let alone analog). > If everything was standard then HBO would not look different than > Starz which would not look different than Showtime, which would not > look different than HDNet, which would not look different than Cinemax. >------------------------------------------------------------< In my experience, the studios and distributors supervise, pay for, and own the transfers of all their feature films, 99% of the time. The cable networks merely take delivery of the tapes supplied to them by the studios. Cinemax doesn't have the time or budget to make a crushed transfer of their own that looks different from the home video version or other transfers shown on other networks. They're using the same HDCam or D5 dubs that everybody else is using. The only thing that should be different is the compression rate of the transmission itself. (Though I have seen HD cable channels alter aspect ratios for syndicated material, like stretch-o-vision. Vile, filthy, disgusting practice.) Now, there's always the possibility that the tape machine used to transfer incoming material to the Cinemax server might be misadjusted. Stranger things have been known to happen. But I'd be surprised if this was happening consistently, over a long period of time. --Marc Wielage/Senior Colorist Technicolor Creative Services Hollywood, USA NOTE: The comments above are strictly mine, and may not necessarily represent those of my employers. From rlovejoy at comcast.net Thu Dec 25 03:20:40 2008 From: rlovejoy at comcast.net (Robert Lovejoy) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:20:40 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Dark transfers on Cinemax? References: Message-ID: <9C0074EF058A4CA29EE06B00E7AD343F@RobertPC> Perhaps Cinemax missed all the posts on digital black. Seriously, however, I haven't noticed crushed blacks on Cinemax on my local Comcast cable. In fact, I notice a lot of uniformity between them, SHO, HBO, and Starz. Could this be a Dish problem? If they have an HD feed on one channel and an SD feed on another, it might be worth comparing them. Bob Lovejoy From t.step at comcast.net Thu Dec 25 22:31:32 2008 From: t.step at comcast.net (Tom Step) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 15:31:32 -0700 Subject: [Tig] Tig mail loses content on iphone Message-ID: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> When you move a tig mail to trash on an iPhone it says "this message has no content " so you can't retrieve it ... Rob? Tom Sent from my iPhone From bob at bluescreen.com Fri Dec 26 17:39:26 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:39:26 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? Message-ID: I've been using a Canon inkjet printer with the official Canon ink and Canon paper, and I find that after a few months exposure to daylight (not direct sunlight, but in a frame, on a desk), they fade, turn red, and become, in general, useless. Putting them in an album delays the process by a year or so, but even those eventually change color. It's remarkably annoying. So what are people using that is relatively inexpensive and doesn't look like crap after a while? --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From ereitan at novia.net Fri Dec 26 22:40:21 2008 From: ereitan at novia.net (Ed Reitan) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:40:21 -0600 Subject: [Tig] 50th Anniversary of Color Video Tape at CBS Message-ID: <005001c967aa$f0489680$0200a8c0@gilfillan.de.ittind.com> Fifty years ago, on Christmas Day Night of 1958, CBS made its first use of color quad video tape to time zone delay to the West Coast, the New York City Ballet's production of "The Nutcracker" by George Ballanchine on "Playhouse 90". The production was mounted at the single CBS Color Studio 72 in New York City. Ampex engineers were present at CBS Television City to monitor the recording and playback of the production on an Ampex machine with the Ampex 1010 Color Conversion Kit. Included was Al Troust whose later triumpth was to be the signal processing protions of the Ampex AVR-1. NBC had been recording color using their RCA prototype machines and their modification of Ampex macines since Spring of 1958. The original two-inch recording of the December 25, 1958 "The Nutcracker" was preserved by Don Kent in a transfer using the KTLA AVR-1. It is wonderful that this historical program survives through his efforts. Ed Reitan " From edgarlebron at hotmail.com Sat Dec 27 02:08:58 2008 From: edgarlebron at hotmail.com (Edgardo Lebron diaz) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 02:08:58 +0000 Subject: [Tig] Re; Digital Black In-Reply-To: References: <562176508.89981229710475051.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: IRE = international radio engineers > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:02:03 -0500> From: mlbnyc at verizon.net> To: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us> CC: tig at colorist.org> Subject: Re: [Tig] Re; Digital Black> > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008> Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.> Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org> ====> > > Digital doesn't speak IRE. 0 IRE is a value of 16 8 bit and 64 in > 10 bit if memory serves..... so that digital 0 would translate to the > negative IRE value.> > Mike> > Michael L. Bittle> Vice President Technical Operations and Quality> PostWorks, New York> 100 Avenue of the Americas, 10th Floor> New York, NY 10013> 212.894.4000 vox, 212-894-4099 fax> www.pwny.com> > "Science, as it turns out, is not an exact science"> > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:04 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote:> > > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008> > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG.> > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org> > ====> >> >> > On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, rlovejoy at comcast.net wrote:> >> >> So what we appear to need is an accurate digital PLUGE. Has anyone > >> seen one? It would have levels of -2.5, 0, and +2.5 IRE.> >> > The digital image storage normally uses unsigned values so negative > > values are not possible. There is no such thing as a negative value > > for SDI or HDMI. Some formats like EXR could support negative values.> >> > Bob> > ======================================> > Bob Friesenhahn> > bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/> > GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http://reels.colorist.org> > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3> > _______________________________________________> http://reels.colorist.org> http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 _________________________________________________________________ Drag n’ drop—Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live™ Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/photos.aspx From rob at colorist.org Sat Dec 27 12:39:08 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (rob at colorist.org) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:39:08 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tig] Tig mail loses content on iphone In-Reply-To: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> References: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> Message-ID: > When you move a tig mail to trash on an iPhone it says "this message > has no content " so you can't retrieve it ... Rob? Well Tom, I don´t have an iPhone so I can´t test this. The TIG carefully follows all RFCs in header and message body content, so I would suggest a couple of things: 1) find out if anyone else is having the problem 2) we need more of a diagnostic than that inscrutable message 3) do some web research to see if there are requirements for the iPhone that don´t adhere to the RFCs. Let me know what you find out. regards Rob From DCorbitt77 at comcast.net Sat Dec 27 13:46:33 2008 From: DCorbitt77 at comcast.net (Dave Corbitt) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 08:46:33 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7552199cc62f85b06a6a256cf608094e@comcast.net> Bob, Epson makes a line of injet printers that are inexpensive and use their Dura-Brite inks that are very face resistant. I have several photos that are printed out and hanging in sunlit areas that have not faded after several years. Dave Corbitt On Dec 26, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Bob Kertesz wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > I've been using a Canon inkjet printer with the official Canon ink and > Canon > paper, and I find that after a few months exposure to daylight (not > direct > sunlight, but in a frame, on a desk), they fade, turn red, and become, > in > general, useless. Putting them in an album delays the process by a > year or so, > but even those eventually change color. It's remarkably annoying. > > So what are people using that is relatively inexpensive and doesn't > look like > crap after a while? > > --Bob > > Bob Kertesz > BlueScreen LLC > Hollywood, California > bob at bluescreen.com > Dave Corbitt Summit, NJ 07901 From hwthayer at cox.net Sat Dec 27 15:08:44 2008 From: hwthayer at cox.net (Howard Thayer) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 07:08:44 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Tig mail loses content on iphone In-Reply-To: References: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000601c96835$02c72210$08556630$@net> >Well Tom, I don´t have an iPhone so I can´t test this. The TIG carefully >follows all RFCs in header and message body content, so I would suggest a >couple of things: >1) find out if anyone else is having the problem >2) we need more of a diagnostic than that inscrutable message >3) do some web research to see if there are requirements for the iPhone > that don´t adhere to the RFCs. I have been using the 'old' iPhone (non 3G) for over a year. I have seen the problem Tom describes on a rare occasion and not just with TIG messages. I have always just chalked it up to the iPhone software gremlins. Cheers. Howard From rob at colorist.org Sat Dec 27 16:44:02 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:44:02 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Tig mail loses content on iphone In-Reply-To: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> References: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <693A684D-D518-4CF3-B502-D4F373E05188@colorist.org> On Dec 26, 2008, at 12:31 AM, Tom Step wrote: > When you move a tig mail to trash on an iPhone it says "this message > has no content " so you can't retrieve it ... Rob? By the way Tom, I missed the most important aspect of this: Why would you want to throw a tig mail in the trash? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sat Dec 27 17:49:47 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:49:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Dec 2008, Bob Kertesz wrote: > > So what are people using that is relatively inexpensive and doesn't > look like crap after a while? I use a Xerox Phaser 8400 wax-based printer here (Phaser 8560 is current model). It is *not* a "photo" printer and being a true CMYK printer it does not successfully reproduce certain colors like deep red. Real-life photos seem to print pretty well. However, the resulting prints do not seem to fade and they are as water-resistant as whatever medium they are printed on. Water-proof paper is available if you need it. Photo prints actually look good when printed on ordinary copy paper as long as it is sufficiently white and I have yet to use some special "photo" paper that I bought for it (at considerable expense). This printer technology prints photos as fast as the data can be transferred to the printer (e.g. 8 seconds). Printing is single pass and thick card stock will work from the feeder tray. I am not aware of any printing technology which can output photo prints faster. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From dwainem at pacbell.net Sat Dec 27 21:07:53 2008 From: dwainem at pacbell.net (Dwaine Maggart) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 13:07:53 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Tig mail loses content on iphone In-Reply-To: <693A684D-D518-4CF3-B502-D4F373E05188@colorist.org> References: <67042E31-BCB9-4D8C-A88F-AF401C511C3E@comcast.net> <693A684D-D518-4CF3-B502-D4F373E05188@colorist.org> Message-ID: <0C06C16124A144AF9A04B70BB07CE356@dmduodell> Being Mac like, I'm surprised dragging a mail to the trash doesn't make the SIM card pop out, or some similar silly Mac like thing... Dwaine On Dec 26, 2008, at 12:31 AM, Tom Step wrote: > When you move a tig mail to trash on an iPhone it says "this message > has no content " so you can't retrieve it ... Rob? By the way Tom, I missed the most important aspect of this: Why would you want to throw a tig mail in the trash? -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Sun Dec 28 15:37:35 2008 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:37:35 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? Message-ID: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> "Bob Kertesz wrote "I've been using a Canon inkjet printer with the official Canon ink "and Canon paper, and I find that after a few months exposure to "daylight (not direct sunlight, but in a frame, on a desk), they "fade, turn red, and become, in general, useless. Putting them in an "album delays the process by a year or so, but even those eventually "change color. It's remarkably annoying. "So what are people using that is relatively inexpensive and doesn't "look like crap after a while? Bob, I suffered the same problem with Canon "Photo Inks" using a BJC 4550 inkjet printer, except my images faded to cyanish green. I then acquired, (from a rubbish dump) a HP Officejet G85. Got it going, got some refill ink and was impressed. I made many prints on good quality "photo" paper; satin; (Kodak) and they fade a lot less, good on wall after 3 years as opposed to fadiung within 18 months for the Canon images. However my wifes friend recently wanted a small printer that did not need a PC, we looked at various types and went for a Canon Selphy printer, Only good for 5 ¾" x 4" prints, but I was amazed. It uses dye sublimation printing, special paper and dyes on a foil, in UK about £24 ($35) for 108 sheets and foils. It is an automatic 4 pass system, C,M,Y, and overcoat. Takes under a minute per print. Allegedly the prints are as robust as photographic prints. Others tell me they do not fade in brightly lit conditions, have over 100 years life in albums, and I can attest to them being suitable for showing around at bars and in pubs, the images are 100% waterproof. I left a couple, for 2 days, in a bucket of water. When removed, the images were perfect, slight swelling had occurred around some edges but this flattened down once they dried. On equivalent prints from my Canon 4550 and the HP printer the inks had almost totally blended to nothing. I was so impressed I looked on the web and found that Canon UK offered refurbished printer models (CP730) at under £30 ($45), that included their own display, but with less card sockets than the current range. I have no connection with Canon and just thought his info might be of assistance Happy New Year Peter From rob at colorist.org Sun Dec 28 15:58:52 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:58:52 +0200 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? In-Reply-To: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> References: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2008, at 5:37 PM, peter_swinson wrote: > Allegedly the prints are as robust as photographic prints. Others > tell me > they do not fade in brightly lit conditions, have over 100 years > life in > albums, I wonder how this 100-year life is measured... is there some way to accelerate time in a controlled experiment ? by the way, being impressed by a printer has circular connotations.. > and I can attest to them being suitable for showing around at bars > and in > pubs, the images are 100% waterproof. > I left a couple, for 2 days, in a bucket of water. next, could you try a bucket of guiness? there might be some quite acceptable aging or tinting to the prints, such that you'd usher in a new era of BRRE. (incidentally, what do you call it when your feline slinky barmate drops her ring in the pint? : Bauble Rise Rate Experiment) -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From rob at colorist.org Sun Dec 28 16:40:57 2008 From: rob at colorist.org (Rob Lingelbach) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:40:57 -0200 Subject: [Tig] octopi enjoy HDTV Message-ID: <04E14B04-BA8A-42C7-BD6C-DD9711C91E4D@colorist.org> Octopi enjoy HDTV according to this story: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/12/21/1955255&from=rss No word as to their preference in displays, (a cephalovision is in development) but it's rumored that they prefer video with an 8-vector colospace. They are the world's most intelligent invertebrates, after all. -- Rob Lingelbach rob at colorist.org From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Dec 28 16:59:51 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:59:51 -0800 Subject: [Tig] octopi enjoy HDTV In-Reply-To: <04E14B04-BA8A-42C7-BD6C-DD9711C91E4D@colorist.org> References: <04E14B04-BA8A-42C7-BD6C-DD9711C91E4D@colorist.org> Message-ID: <62cfl4dui9ik6podfpv7h31v8q3vngv1qo@4ax.com> >Octopi...are the world's most intelligent invertebrates After producers, of course. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From bob at bluescreen.com Sun Dec 28 17:22:25 2008 From: bob at bluescreen.com (Bob Kertesz) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:22:25 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? In-Reply-To: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> References: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> Message-ID: >we looked at various types and went for a Canon Selphy printer, Thanks for the report. Having fallen for Canon's marketing before and having literally hundreds of prints which I've sent off to family members fall apart over a year, I have a standing rule against rewarding bad behavior by manufacturers by buying more of their products when the current one has never worked properly. People have strongly recommended the new Kodak line (with less expensive consumables) in another forum, and I will look into that. Thanks to those who replied both on and off line. --Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California bob at bluescreen.com The Ultimate in ULTIMATTE® compositing. For details, visit http://www.bluescreen.com From cnoellert at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 17:11:42 2008 From: cnoellert at gmail.com (Christopher Noellert) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:11:42 -0800 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? In-Reply-To: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> References: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <0F617F1D-A3A2-4A3C-81A1-B5B8C9521447@gmail.com> Those of us who have spent time in prepress will all say dyesub. I have a photo I printed with dyesub 14 years ago that looks as vibrant and colorful today as it did the day I hit print. It was always the best. Best, Chris Sent from my iPhone On Dec 28, 2008, at 7:37 AM, peter_swinson wrote: > 2056 subscribers as of December 2008 > Sohonet http://www.sohonet.co.uk sponsors the TIG. > Colorist reels: http://reels.colorist.org > ==== > > > "Bob Kertesz wrote > "I've been using a Canon inkjet printer with the official Canon ink > "and Canon paper, and I find that after a few months exposure to > "daylight (not direct sunlight, but in a frame, on a desk), they > "fade, turn red, and become, in general, useless. Putting them in an > "album delays the process by a year or so, but even those eventually > "change color. It's remarkably annoying. > "So what are people using that is relatively inexpensive and doesn't > "look like crap after a while? > > Bob, > I suffered the same problem with Canon "Photo Inks" using a BJC 4550 > inkjet printer, except my images faded to cyanish green. > I then acquired, (from a rubbish dump) a HP Officejet G85. Got it > going, > got some refill ink and was impressed. > I made many prints on good quality "photo" paper; satin; (Kodak) and > they > fade a lot less, good on wall after 3 years as > opposed to fadiung within 18 months for the Canon images. > > However my wifes friend recently wanted a small printer that did not > need a > PC, we looked at various types and went for a Canon Selphy printer, > Only good for 5 ¾" x 4" prints, but I was amazed. It uses dye subl > imation > printing, special paper and dyes on a foil, in UK about £24 ($35) f > or > 108 sheets and foils. It is an automatic 4 pass system, C,M,Y, and > overcoat. Takes under a minute per print. > Allegedly the prints are as robust as photographic prints. Others > tell me > they do not fade in brightly lit conditions, have over 100 years > life in > albums, > and I can attest to them being suitable for showing around at bars > and in > pubs, the images are 100% waterproof. > I left a couple, for 2 days, in a bucket of water. When removed, the > images were perfect, slight swelling had occurred around some edges > but this flattened down once they dried. On equivalent prints from > my Canon > 4550 and the HP printer the inks had almost totally blended to > nothing. > > I was so impressed I looked on the web and found that Canon UK offered > refurbished printer models (CP730) at under £30 ($45), > that included their own display, but with less card sockets than the > current range. > > I have no connection with Canon and just thought his info might be of > assistance > > Happy New Year > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > http://reels.colorist.org > http://www.colorist.org/wiki3 From bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us Sun Dec 28 17:32:32 2008 From: bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us (Bob Friesenhahn) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:32:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? In-Reply-To: References: <200812281037_MC3-2-1959-2097@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Rob Lingelbach wrote: > >> Allegedly the prints are as robust as photographic prints. Others tell me >> they do not fade in brightly lit conditions, have over 100 years life in >> albums, > > I wonder how this 100-year life is measured... is there some way to > accelerate time in a controlled experiment ? It is probably primarily measured by the length of the marketeer's nose. :-) The price of today's printers is inversely proprotional to the cost of consumables. For example, I spent a whole lot of money on a black/white laser printer (to save on printing costs), but similar-grade color printers (which surely cost quite a bit more to manufacture) are offered at 1/3 the price. So you look at the cost of consumables and you see that the cost of the consumables quickly dwarfs the original cost of the printer. I have yet to purchase a "photo" ink-jet printer, but a simple consumer store inspection shows that the hardware is almost given away for free but the inks and paper cost quite a lot. Many of these printers require six ink colors and the price of refilling just one color is often close to the retail cost of the printer itself. Using Peter's approach of searching for printers in the trash heap is likely not going to save any money in the end. Bob ====================================== Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen at simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ From peter_swinson at compuserve.com Mon Dec 29 11:20:44 2008 From: peter_swinson at compuserve.com (peter_swinson) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 06:20:44 -0500 Subject: [Tig] Slightly off topic: Inkjet prints that don't fade or change color? Message-ID: <200812290620_MC3-2-199E-335F@compuserve.com> "Bob Friesenhahn wrote "Using Peter's approach of searching for printers in the trash heap "is likely not going to save any money in the end. Ah, Bob, now if you come from the Dickension Scrouge school of usage then cost for inks are much lower. Refilling manufacturers cartridges is much cheaper than buying theirs. Yes they do try to stop you doing it in ever more sophisticated ways. Therefore older printer types and cartridges tend to have less protective features. For example the HP I retrieved has a sneaky protection. Remove a cartridge after it has signaled empty or nearly empty, refill it and put it back, the printer says it is rejected! The printer allegedly remembers the serial number of the last two sets of cartridges used. If it sees them go back in it assumes you are "cheating" and refilling. Therefore keep another couple of sets of old cartridges, duff or not. Put them, sequentially, in the printer first, this clears it of the good cartridge serial numbers, then put the refilled one back in and hey presto it accepts it. Surprisingly even without doing this, often the printer nags that there is a cartridge problem, but it still works OK. Even blocked jets can often been recovered by soaking in isoprop alcohol! I still maintain that the dye sub printer I previously described is relatively economical and a useful and convenient alternative to the in store printers. Question, are the in store printers Dye-Sub or do they feed via the photographic print process? As I have only seen such print services in stores that have a Noritsu or Kodak or similar print processor running. I once used their services having color corrected all the images and had to really argue to get them to turn their auto color correction off. They only agreed after I made them run a Macbeth and the Kodak Q-60R1 target image through their system with auto on and auto off, guess what, auto on made a mess of it! Cheers Peter From dlt at earthlink.net Tue Dec 30 04:12:47 2008 From: dlt at earthlink.net (David Tosh) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:12:47 -0800 Subject: [Tig] "To Catch a Thief" DVD transfer information Message-ID: <49599FBF.70404@earthlink.net> Any information available on the transfer specs for Paramount's Special Collector's Edition of "To Catch a Thief" (2007)? What was the film format in transfer and how did it relate to the VistaVision negative? David Tosh